It's posts like these that make me realize that VDB is actually still with us
Our finances according to Kieran Maguire
- Thread starter davidmichael
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Didn’t you know, he’s our new Phil Jones ?It's posts like these that make me realize that VDB is actually still with us
He can never leave.
I'm sorry but you are very wrong with your explanations. You're mixing amortisation cost with cashflow related payments, which have basically nothing to do with each other.
1. Regardless of payment terms, player fees are always amortised linearly over the length of the contract. This is a cost that goes into your P&L, but has nothing to do with cash.
2. The cashflow statement tells you when and how much cash is generated and payed in that period. For example, if you paid an installment of 20m in that period, you will find that in the cashflow statement.
3. The balance sheet, among other things, tells you how much you owe in future transfer intallments (liabilities)
I did say I just saw that it was 6 months and not 12 and that was the error on wages the mistakes everyone makes is they only include men’s team which is questionable as all employees and female and your teams wages I believe must also be included in UEFA’s FSP test although there are concessions with training complexes and youth and women team investment we need a definitive answer on this
I reconcilled the 6 month mistake but you are missing the point I’m talking about the issues if we qualify for European football and much of the actual work sheets with balance, cash flow and liabilities can not be calculated yet as the accounting period for the last time, is from January 1st to December 31st 2024.
Swiss rambles work is forecasting what they perceive as first 6 months and even then we are only in May 24.
The post was related to the New Squad Cost rule from UEFA which only applies to teams that qualify for their tournament and next season a team who qualifies can only spend 80% of their revenue which is not known until December 31st because UEFA have set a different accounting period.
Enclosed is the Squad cost rules so you can look through, the club could only spend. 80% on net transfer, Agent fees, wages and current transfer amortisation, I Accept that predicting these is incredibly difficult and maybe the reason United are trying to appoint a specialist just for this rule.
My point is and continues the club would be better off not being in Europe next season.
https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...gulations-to-replace-ffp-all-you-need-to-know
We also need an absolute specialist on this who can answer the following question?
1. What are allowed as Club wages(Men’s team only or other?)
2. What is the true amortisation of players fees owed that will be shown against the proposed revenue for 2024
3. A true accurate forecast of the clubs revenue for the year of 2024 from January 1st to 31th of December.
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This post is all over the place mixing up PSR with FFP which is now actually FSR ( Financial Sustainability Regulations)
Yes the 3 year cycle 19/20+20/21 averaged , 21/22& 23/24 cleared PSR and FSR /FFP and yes you are right that the COVID years that allowed significant additional concessions now drop out of the equation but the worry for most clubs is that those years dropping out mean that it will be even harder to meet the 23/24 PSR requirements
FFP never had £105 million allowable deviation that was PSR. Even in the new UEFA process it is way less than the PL version but that isn’t reset as it were all that happens is the earliest year drops out and the latest year is added.indeed if Utd do qualify for Europe the calculations are far more complex than your take on it.
Finally I am far from sure that the cash sums injected by Sir Jim will help PSR/FFP at all. Indeed without knowing far more about the things for instance will it be shown as a loan ? Will it be in respected of newly created shares ? Or quite simply a cash in which I suspect won’t be allowable in either the PL or indeed UEFAs version
AsI pointed out to you the other day and now others are saying likewise it would appear that you either haven’t understood or indeed read the FSR guidelines
In one bit you are right that squad costs are measured from 1/1- 31/12 but not income that still is measured over the clubs accounting period.
How do we account for add-ons in ammortization? I work in accounts but have never come across this type of transaction. Would we ammortize the "Likely" fee (i.e.short of add-ons) or would we ammortize the maximum and then recognise the credit if it doesn't become true?
Ok I have not mixed up FFP with PSR I’m completely aware they are two different measuring sticks, I’ve quoted clearly that should the club qualify for Europe then the measuring stick is UEFA FSP and Squad rule costs which measures squad costs and revenue in that period unless you can show me differently with a UEFA guideline that they use the previous years accounting for revenue but the fiscal year for Squad costs, provide the link please ?
A quote ‘So spending in the summer window will be included in the calculations” ; that’s this summer included in the squad rule costs against last years revenue 23/24 season seems unfair but if you can show the UEFA guideline in their rules appendix, it would be helpful for all not just me?
As that puts a difference perspective on things basically a revenue probably of £675m against maybe £600m so it’s important to clarify. What everyone is trying to find out is what the club could actually spend not the £35m nonsense being spread but also not the £300-400m either?
Ok I’ve found the answer myself and you are incorrect the operating revenue is calculated in the same period as the Squads wages, Agent fees , Amortisation of transfers
Clause 5 profit and loss can help by obviously selling academy products as pure profit.
Ok refer to article 92
Appendix 92.04
Clause a “The 12 months period to the 31st December during the licence season for elements 1-4 above”
Number 4 - Adjusted operating revenue
Is used as the denominator to calculate.
We now have the correct answer and I was originally correct and you were incorrect as UEFA measure all from 1st January 2024 to December 31st 2024
https://documents.uefa.com/r/UEFA-C...ulations-2023/Article-88-Contributions-Online
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Exactly great question as most transfer now always have add ons, how does this effect the owed amount or registered amount owed on the books ?
As I say your posting is all over the place.
Try looking at article 4 which defines dates .
Articles 65 and 66 and then 74.01-02 and finally 84.02. There is absolutely no way that clubs with accounting periods that don’t end on 31/12 would be having audited accounts to fit in with the 31/12 date.
Artickes 92,93&94 are specific to the calculation of squad costs
Amortisation in relation to player costs relates to not just the fee but also costs such as agents fees. When it comes to add ons they won’t appear to they become payable.
31th?
We both know that’s a typo and should be 31st who cares someone answer can we spend less or more money if we are out of Europe ?
Omg it states operational revenue it’s ok to be wrong sometimes, it clearly states operation revenue will be used to measure just accept your wrong and move forward, the key here is that EPL and UEFa will measure accounts and squad costs in different accounting periods.
‘There is no way’ ; that’s your assumption not UEFA’s ?
Ok I’m all over the place and you can’t spell Article, I accept human error especially when fans are using mobile phones to write a post try being a little less matter of fact, I mean I accept your a newbie so I’ll cut you some slack!
Most agent fees are paid either upfront or they are paid over a 12 month period and again this will cause issues with regard to different accounting periods for UEFA and EPL.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68794902.amp
What we all need is a football finance expert that explains whether United, as this thread is based on United’s Finances can spend more or less money with or without European Football?
Oh the irony of you picking up and commenting on a spelling error when you had to comment on your error around 31th. These things happen and I am long past my school days.
Operational revenue is measured in line with the clubs accounting dates and using those numbers the operational income is determined so for year ending 30/6/24 that will determine the budget re squad costs 1/1/25-31/12/25. It would be folly to try and use income figures for a non entity accounting period ending and having been involved in statutory audits I can tell you that they aren’t two minute jobs.
If you were right the UEFA regulations would state accounting dates in articles 65& 6. They don’t.
Your last comment re how agents are paid again shows the flaws.
Agents costs, may be paid over a period may be paid in one sum but these costs are like transfer fees are capitalised and then amortised over the period of the contract. It gets truly complex when. Agents act on behalf of the club and the player indeed reference to Utd accounts will show that the club have issues with HMRC in this regard. So do Newcastle.
Try reading this article
http://doubleexit.ie/accounting-for-football-players-ias38/
It's pretty irrelevant, more money from Europe = more money to spend. We aren't going to spend up to the maximum allowed either way because we're limited by the money we actually have, not the rules.
Let’s deal with UEFA FSP squad rule costs
At no point do UEFA state the operational imcome is to be based on 23/24 accounting period, your clutching at straws instead in their article it states.
Ok on 92.01 your hypothesis in article 65,, 66 are just that theories not factual information so I’ve included word for word UEFA’ squad Cost Rules.
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92.01 A licencee’s squad cost ratio is calculated as the sum of:
i) employee benefits in respect of relevant persons;
ii) amortisation/impairment of relevant persons’ costs; and
iii) costs of agents/intermediaries/connected parties (if not included in i or ii above); divided by the sum of:
iv) adjusted operating revenue( key word adjusted)
v) net profit/loss on disposal of relevant persons’ registrations and other transfer income/expenses
92.02 it states that “squad cost ratio numerator is the sum of i), ii), iii) the squad cost ratio denominator is the sum iv) and v)
And now the facts which refers to all indexes including operating income which is listed as an appendix. iv)
92.04 The relevant period for calculations for the squad costs ratio are:
Here the most important part now please pay attention !
a) the 12-month period to the 31st December during the licence season for elements i) to iv) above
iv) is operating income and it states a 12 month period up until 31st December!
This confirms that all contributing factors to the squad rule will be measured evenly so wages, Agent fees and transfer are measured against operational income in the same period this means, as a football club that should you qualify for Europe you will need to be more careful with your summer transfer window as you will need to forecast future revenue accurately so as not to be punished, this may be why the club has been recently looking to recruit a specialist in this field!
Appendix iv) listed adjusted income which means it is an ever moving figure in the same way that wages and transfers fees are, they are looking for clubs to have the whole 12 months from January 1st to December 31st to work out their squad costs and therefore it makes the summer window more difficult as you need forecasters to project accurately your revenue and costs.
From an accounting point of view this makes work arounds slightly easier because after summer, they then know what they can and can’t spend after September.
So for the very last time can the club spend more this summer for transfers if they do not qualify for Europe, pretty sure the answer is a resounding yes as proven by Chelsea last summer, I do agree with the common philosophy that the club doesn’t have that much working cash to facilitate transfers irrespective of being in or out of Europe.
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Ye exactly this