Our Football is Outdated - Is Mourinho Flexible Enough?

[EyeInTheSky]

If someone could actually quantify what "outdated" in footballing strategy terms actually means then we could have a half decent discussion about it.

Is it the formation? Is Jose playing an alien formation that no one has ever seen or played? No... The detractors can't even explain or quantify in a reasonable detail what they actually think is outdated precisely. They would be better off just admitting they want Jose to mimic Klopp's or Pep's teams. Its as if no one has pressed in a game before. People are just clutching at straws, there more to winning then the occasional press.

 

[sunama]

...but arguably he [LVG] was very close to having a style that ticked some of the boxes that us fans crave.

He was?
From what I recall, under LVG, we were extremely boring, we hogged the ball and aimed for low scoring games (which ties into boring football).
Yes, it was difficult for opponents to attack us, but we ourselves didn't seem to have any idea how to attack them. Basically a lot of our games were like a stalemate.

 

[Luke Parker]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/footbal...d/news-story/5942e849161268dc5058ced63ce429c3

These are the kind of articles I have seen increasingly over recent weeks, and one of the reasons I wanted to see what the general consensus on here was.

 

[Xaviesta]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/footbal...d/news-story/5942e849161268dc5058ced63ce429c3

These are the kind of articles I have seen increasingly over recent weeks, and one of the reasons I wanted to see what the general consensus on here was.

I take stuff all notice of Premier League articles from that site, and they're the ''home of football'' in Australia. There's a strong Liverpool bias from Fox Sports which has been evident to me for a long time. I also find they tend to sensationalise their Premier League stories.

 

[pocco]

If someone could actually quantify what "outdated" in footballing strategy terms actually means then we could have a half decent discussion about it.

Is it the formation? Is Jose playing an alien formation that no one has ever seen or played? No... The detractors can't even explain or quantify in a reasonable detail what they actually think is outdated precisely. They would be better off just admitting they want Jose to mimic Klopp's or Pep's teams. Its as if no one has pressed in a game before. People are just clutching at straws, there more to winning then the occasional press.

Well said and it comes back to something I said the other days about fans having to talk in absolutes and sensationalize everything. It can't just be a team out of form, under a new manager, trying to find some form. It's got to be 'the manager is past it' or our 'tactics are outdated'.

I think it boils down to this incredible impatience that has took over some fans and they want to make a decision as soon as possible and move on to the next manager. The idea of giving the manager time doesn't sit well with them because they want to be able to brag again about how great their team are or how they play the best football.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Well said and it comes back to something I said the other days about fans having to talk in absolutes and sensationalize everything. It can't just be a team out of form, under a new manager, trying to find some form. It's got to be 'the manager is past it' or our 'tactics are outdated'.

I think it boils down to this incredible impatience that has took over some fans and they want to make a decision as soon as possible and move on to the next manager. The idea of giving the manager time doesn't sit well with them because they want to be able to brag again about how great their team are or how they play the best football.

Yep I agree. Its incredible that in 10 games that a select group are loosing the plot and already saying hes "finished", "lost the plot", "outdated". Like I said before someone who came second in the league in 12/13 and won it in 14/15 is far from finished and by that logic that would mean that only Claudio Ranieri was not "finished".

I am still waiting for someone to come up with an articulate and detailed explanation on what precisely is outdated about JM's approach to management/strategy. We have played recognizable formations that other teams use or do we play one that has been forgotten long ago and is dead and buried? No. Do the players run in an outdated way? or is their first touch old fashioned? Allot of people get an idea in their head and then assume that a team has won a game soley due to or because of a certain stereotype that gets associated to one manager or another (Klopp for example) if you watch pool they don't always press and give away allot of chances which and concede allot from those chances. There are so many variables that it would be naive to think its one aspect that gets highlighted in footballing circles. Correlation seems to be far from causation in football.

We have created far more chances to score then I can remember and its a matter of time before it pays dividends. It's like whoever is on top from one week to the next is the way to go and everyone else is outdated or playing dinosaur football, forget flavor of the month its flavor of the week for some...

 

[SammyUnited_83]

He was?
From what I recall, under LVG, we were extremely boring, we hogged the ball and aimed for low scoring games (which ties into boring football).
Yes, it was difficult for opponents to attack us, but we ourselves didn't seem to have any idea how to attack them. Basically a lot of our games were like a stalemate.

In a way yes.

Look it was shite to watch, but his style (approach, tactics etc) got us back in the top 4 (after the Moyes disaster), won a trophy and then missed out on top 4 on goal difference.

For me now, the remit is to get back in the top 4. Let's not be arrogant about it, the days of us winning league after league have gone (for now) and only time will tell if Jose's approach (which is better to watch, unquestionably) can satisfy that. If it doesn't, and we end up falling further behind, then maybe it would have been better to stick with LvG's approach / methods - only time will tell.

As, regular match goer, I am enjoying this season more (though still ultimately disappointed), but not finishing top 4 (or CL qualification via EL) would be a disaster, we won't keep attracting the top players (and if we do it will be the mercenaries) and the sponsorship money will go down. Also it will leave the club in limbo again, as, the last 2 managers have been sacked for missing out on CL...

 

[SammyUnited_83]

If someone could actually quantify what "outdated" in footballing strategy terms actually means then we could have a half decent discussion about it.

Is it the formation? Is Jose playing an alien formation that no one has ever seen or played? No... The detractors can't even explain or quantify in a reasonable detail what they actually think is outdated precisely. They would be better off just admitting they want Jose to mimic Klopp's or Pep's teams. Its as if no one has pressed in a game before. People are just clutching at straws, there more to winning then the occasional press.

I totally agree.

There is no such thing as an outdated football strategy, it's a load of bollocks to hit Jose over the head with.

Wenger's approach hasn't won the league in years
Pep's approach has flaws in it, lets see if he stays true to his style and wins the league
Klopp's approach, 2 finals and no silverware, finished outside the top 4, doing well this year, lets see.
Poch approach, not won anything yet, though did get them into the CL
Ranieri approach, won the league, now doing shit
Jose's approach, won the league, sacked, now doing average, lets see.
Conte approach, poor start, recent improvement, lets see.

All those managers in some aspects are under pressure, and it will be interesting to see at the end of the season escapes the media's guillotine.

 

[Luke Parker]

In a way yes.

Look it was shite to watch, but his style (approach, tactics etc) got us back in the top 4 (after the Moyes disaster), won a trophy and then missed out on top 4 on goal difference.

For me now, the remit is to get back in the top 4. Let's not be arrogant about it, the days of us winning league after league have gone (for now) and only time will tell if Jose's approach (which is better to watch, unquestionably) can satisfy that. If it doesn't, and we end up falling further behind, then maybe it would have been better to stick with LvG's approach / methods - only time will tell.

As, regular match goer, I am enjoying this season more (though still ultimately disappointed), but not finishing top 4 (or CL qualification via EL) would be a disaster, we won't keep attracting the top players (and if we do it will be the mercenaries) and the sponsorship money will go down. Also it will leave the club in limbo again, as, the last 2 managers have been sacked for missing out on CL...

Precisely this, the long term business model and sponsorship appears to require relative success on the field, top 4 and CL football as a minimum. Can we honestly be confident that we will be in the top 4 come the end of the season? IMO, not on the current evidence and not if we lose ground the way we have recently.

I think the notion of 'outdated' football/tactics has been somewhat quashed as bollocks on here by most, a lot of posters have made pretty valid points as to why this is the case too to be fair. However, some are clinging onto this statement as if it is the only criticism that has been made.

Still the argument as to whether we are lacking flexibility arises? Is Mourinho overly reliant on a struggling Zlatan (temporary or not) considering most believe it has been the finishing that has let us down? Should he have changed system by now to account for it considering our recent run of results?

 

[sunama]

In Arsenal's last game, they beat Sunderland by 4-0.

The key stats:

Now to put it into context, we played a better team, created more chances, had more shots on target.
Our problem is the final touch into the net and you cannot blame the manager or the tactic for this.
Giroud with his first 2 touches, scored. Had we had that sort of conversion percentage, we'd probably have scored about 8 goals.

With a bit of luck, we will start converting our chances and start beating teams by big margins. We have already had some 3 and 4 goal scorelines and I think we will get a few more this season.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

In Arsenal's last game, they beat Sunderland by 4-0.

The key stats:

Now to put it into context, we played a better team, created more chances, had more shots on target.
Our problem is the final touch into the net and you cannot blame the manager or the tactic for this.
Giroud with his first 2 touches, scored. Had we had that sort of conversion percentage, we'd probably have scored about 8 goals.

With a bit of luck, we will start converting our chances and start beating teams by big margins. We have already had some 3 and 4 goal scorelines and I think we will get a few more this season.

Excellent. Any style that dominates your opponent's and provides more chances and shots on target than them is "contemporary". Will Jose suddenly be called a ground breaking Genius by his detractors once we start finishing our chances?

 

[cesc's_mullet]

@Luke Parker do you happen to be a Sydney Swans supporters?

 

[Fully Fledged]

In Arsenal's last game, they beat Sunderland by 4-0.

The key stats:

Now to put it into context, we played a better team, created more chances, had more shots on target.
Our problem is the final touch into the net and you cannot blame the manager or the tactic for this.
Giroud with his first 2 touches, scored. Had we had that sort of conversion percentage, we'd probably have scored about 8 goals.

With a bit of luck, we will start converting our chances and start beating teams by big margins. We have already had some 3 and 4 goal scorelines and I think we will get a few more this season.

You can when he plays a 35 year old striker in almost every game, playing him weekends and mid week. Not only is he played in almost every game but when he has started has he ever been substituted?
People are saying that it's down to Zlatan missing chances. If this is down to tiredness then he needs to be rested. If this is down to form then he needs to be dropped. Either way it's on the managers shoulders.

 

[serghei]

Mourinho is showing some tactical rigidity and has always been like that. He has a precise set of values about what he wants from a player playing in a certain position for his side, and it's very hard for him after winning so much in his career to go beyond that. Even if the players he has in his squad are not at the required level for a system like that to work as it's supposed to.

Case in point being Ibrahimovic. Ibrahimovic is a player that embodies what qualities Mourinho asks from his CF, but is older and past his best. He is unable to perform at the required level simply because he is at the end of his career. In these cases, beying the right type of player for his vision doesn't matter anymore. And Ibrahimovic is just one of the problems.

The whole quad, imo, is lacking the key individualities that Mourinho had at his previous teams. Think of a Drogba in the attacking line, or a prime John Terry in defence, or an Essien at DM, or a Lampard at box-to-box, or a Sneijder, Ozil & Deco at no10. These are key roles that in Mourinho's past teams have been filled by players of great individual value, and individual value exactly in those areas that Mourinho wanted and needed. Now the tactical roles are still there in Mourinho football, but the players that are supposed to execute them are not the best fit. Not that they are bad players, but their qualities aren't that easily tied to a role as specific as Mourinho wants it (and Mourinho can be very specific in that he will tell you exactly what he wants from you).

The thing is there are two solutions for Mourinho to succeed. Either he is given complete freedom to build a new squad (you need 5-6 new players to play his football in an effective way and at least 1 more year), or he switches to a more fluid system where players can be a bit more free to express themselves and bring their own judgment in the game. I think United has several players that have good football IQ, but they deliver best in a less restricted role so to speak.

 

[Ban]

Our football isn't outdated. It's getting better and better since the 1st day. Not to mention last season when we hardly had chances or shots on goal even.

Our problem right now is scoring goals but I'm sure that will come soon or will be solved.

There's lot of lazy stuff about Mourinho going on around as always, he's outdated, he's old school compared to Klopp and Pochetino, he argues with everyone, he doesn't love football anymore and so on. It's boring and not true in most cases.

 

[Jaxdan]

Outdated? I have no idea really if that is even a 'thing' when it comes to the beautiful game. But a run of good play and wins and I'm sure we'll be playing 'cutting edge' football again.

 

[Munich_1958]

10 games has been played this season and I have seen more action in these ten games than I have in the last 3 years! We have played some terrific football and have some terrific players, yes it seems we are miles behind because results have not gone our way but we are miles ahead of were we where last season and previous seasons to that.

For instance if we were to win all our games in November and its a big if, we have qualified to the semi finals of the league cup, Knockout rounds of the Europa and beat Arsenal and possibly sitting fourth or there about, and this is only 6 games we are talking about.

the football is there, once we find goals and consistency and some of our players like Martial, Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan ect... hit any sort of form even god forbid a rich vain of form then we can turn this season around very easily but it needs to happen soon, I have faith!

EDIT: lets not forget the big let down of our pre season preparations

 

[Rams]

There are 2 important elements; the tactics used during a game and the way the players are trained to implement the tactics. I can't comment on the latter but if I'm being honest I don't think Morinho's tactics during a game have been particularly ground breaking from what I've seen so far this season. If you compare the positional tactics of United to that of City, Liverpool and Spurs for example, then I think they play a far more modern brand of football than from what I've seen of United so far this season. I'm just trying to make an honest observation here.

 

[blue blue]

You agreed with a post that said Chelsea were comfortable throughout the match. You were only comfortable because Utd missed chances. Ibrahimovic should've made it 1-1 before you got your second. That was definitely down to poor finishing. Utd having a stinking game defensively has no bearing on what you were talking about.

Utd have not had trouble creating chances. Trust me, I've been watching our matches so your analysis is wrong. Poor finishing has cost us points that would have us a lot closer.

Azpilicueta "challenged" him for the header and I believe this caused him to put it over. Without an in depth conversation with Zlatan we will never know. I would say, though, that if the opposition keeps missing chances it does make you feel comfortable.

 

[Harry190]

There's no such thing as outdated football. It's about effort and luck.

 

[acnumber9]

Azpilicueta "challenged" him for the header and I believe this caused him to put it over. Without an in depth conversation with Zlatan we will never know. I would say, though, that if the opposition keeps missing chances it does make you feel comfortable.

Have you played football? If you're conceding chances then you aren't comfortable. Your original point was nonsense and you're compounding it.

 

[TheReligion]

Yes this season has been better than the past three. Yes we are creating chances we previously weren't. But for me that's where the positives end.

I fear with other more modern and progressive managers in the league achieving higher standards with seemingly less quality, Klopp and Pochettino specifically. We are falling behind.

10 games in, nearly a quarter of the season, and we're 8 points off top spot and 5 points outside of the top 4. Dropping points at home to both Stoke and Burnley means we need to pick up points in the big games in order to close the gap. Something we have failed to do so far under Mourinho.

Most concerning is the lack of flexibility in the football, we're a side full of big players playing with a target man which has worked for Mourinho in the past but doesnt appear to be working at all well at the moment. Is this an outdated style of football?

I was happy with the Ibra signing but he has missed sitters in the last 4 or 5 games, we have the players to play a different style and he shouldn't be immune to being benched. Should we, at this stage, be thinking about adopting a different style and is Mourinho a flexible enough manager to change it up?

For me we're at an absolutely crucial point in the season, we can't afford to lose much more ground and I'm not sure the powers that be have much more in the locker, or the willingness, to do anything about it...?

TL DR

Is United's football outdated? No.

Close thread.

 

[TheReligion]

How is changing our style going to improve our finishing? Because that's what has cost us four points against Stoke and Burnley. I'm not sure how his style can go from being comfortable champions 18 months ago to out of date just because Klopp and Pochettino have done well but still yet to win anything.

Exactly. It's a bizarre notion. What's even more bizarre is the idea that counterpress football is a new shiny tactic. It's been around for years.

Pep is the only one doing something fairly unique tactically and he's only enjoying mixed PL success with it.

I hate to say it but the thread is garbage.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Outdated? We've steamrolled plenty of teams this season even though we didnt get the results we wanted.

This.

 

[King7Eric]

Mourinho is showing some tactical rigidity and has always been like that. He has a precise set of values about what he wants from a player playing in a certain position for his side, and it's very hard for him after winning so much in his career to go beyond that. Even if the players he has in his squad are not at the required level for a system like that to work as it's supposed to.

Case in point being Ibrahimovic. Ibrahimovic is a player that embodies what qualities Mourinho asks from his CF, but is older and past his best. He is unable to perform at the required level simply because he is at the end of his career. In these cases, beying the right type of player for his vision doesn't matter anymore. And Ibrahimovic is just one of the problems.

The whole quad, imo, is lacking the key individualities that Mourinho had at his previous teams. Think of a Drogba in the attacking line, or a prime John Terry in defence, or an Essien at DM, or a Lampard at box-to-box, or a Sneijder, Ozil & Deco at no10. These are key roles that in Mourinho's past teams have been filled by players of great individual value, and individual value exactly in those areas that Mourinho wanted and needed. Now the tactical roles are still there in Mourinho football, but the players that are supposed to execute them are not the best fit. Not that they are bad players, but their qualities aren't that easily tied to a role as specific as Mourinho wants it (and Mourinho can be very specific in that he will tell you exactly what he wants from you).

The thing is there are two solutions for Mourinho to succeed. Either he is given complete freedom to build a new squad (you need 5-6 new players to play his football in an effective way and at least 1 more year), or he switches to a more fluid system where players can be a bit more free to express themselves and bring their own judgment in the game. I think United has several players that have good football IQ, but they deliver best in a less restricted role so to speak.

I don't support the people who call Mourinho's tactics outdated but I think this above post summarizes some of the problems people seem to have with his style. He wants to play the system he has played for the most of his career but lacks the individuals to do so. Mata and Lingard (or Mkhi if he plays RW) are not as good as some of the no.10s or wingers he has had in the past. They are not as good as Ozil, Sneijder, Robben, Di Maria or Hazard. Neither is Pogba at the moment as good as Lampard was( though I expect him to be better than what Lampard was in the near future). That's not to say Mata or Mkhi are not very good players but they aren't as good as some of the names I mentioned were.

Given the players at his disposal, Mourinho is struggling to get the same output from them as he did from his previous teams playing the same systems. Don't get me wrong, I do think we are playing a good level of football and results will soon follow, but their are still issues with our play. If Mourinho wants to play this system only then we will need better wingers and perhaps even a better CF. But as I said in another thread I don't know who out there is realistically available in these positions who could improve us. The other option would be to wait for Martial and Rashford to fully develop their potential to grow into World class wide forward and CF respectively but that is going to take time and patience.

 

[lysglimt]

You can have low pressure (like Norway did under Egil Olsen) - or you can have high pressure (like Liverpool have under Klopp) - both works IF you do it well. But you can't play a pressure game and use players like Zlatan who is too slow and lazy to be doing that work.

And even with the right players you need to pressure effectively - we are doing it 80% - which is the same as not doing it at all.

 

[blue blue]

Have you played football? If you're conceding chances then you aren't comfortable. Your original point was nonsense and you're compounding it.

Four nil is comfortable.

 

[acnumber9]

Four nil is comfortable.

You were not four nil up throughout the entire game. You're debating like a child which I suspect you may be.

 

[blue blue]

You were not four nil up throughout the entire game. You're debating like a child which I suspect you may be.

I accept Chelsea were not comfortable for the first 37 seconds although I don't recall Utd creating any chances in that time.

 

[acnumber9]

I accept Chelsea were not comfortable for the first 37 seconds although I don't recall Utd creating any chances in that time.

Are you really going to waste your posts with this puerile nonsense?