Our lack of intensity isn't due to being "unfit" or "tiredness"

[BR7]

it’s not a conspiracy theory. It’ll, worryingly, be down to the manager if it happens and that is a huge problem.

Whilst I’m firmly in the #OleIn camp, I agree there is clearly issues with him/his tactics/approach currently.

I would argue that the players want to play for him. It’s Just not working at the moment.

Ole could make some really ballsy decisions and I think it’d help. But he won’t

Do not panic, we are Man Utd, we won’t be down forever and you will have a smile back on your Chevy Chase again soon. It may not be with Ole as manager it maybe (I’m an outter) the 67 league title and 68 European cup took 27 years to get back to and we will get there again. Just hope you’re not too old do you actually get to see it ;-)

 

[wolvored]

Maybe its Ole who is unfit and tired. Every clip you see of him on matchday is him sitting down holding his head up with one arm. Hardly ever do you see him on the touchline shouting, cajoling players.

 

[wolvored]

Things that have been recurrent in our play style under Ole and even Jose during the last few years:
1. Much more emphasis on recovery pressing individually rather than collective, organised pressing with blocking passing lanes.
2. No clear passing patterns and movement, mostly some long balls, hopeful crosses often underhit/overhit, some individual combination play that breaks down after 3-4 moves showing the lack of systemic coaching.
3. No tempo most of the times to exploit gaps in opponent's defence, and at times when we do have them, it mostly breaks down due to poor passing, lack of penetrative, quick passes.
4. Passing is inconsistent, and some of the players are horrible at it. Also, there are some players who makes runs from the deep, only to pass sideways/backwards, showing lack of clever movement. Very poor set pieces other than direct free kicks.
5. We still haven't figured out how to break low blocks, even after having so many technical players in the squad.
6. Poor positioning, sometimes huge gaps between players, sometimes 3-4 players occupying the same space.
We are mostly dependent on counter attacks through the runs and individual skills of Bruno/Rashford/ Martial/Greenwood. Some basic wingplay, some combination play and occasionally some clever movement from the forwards are there.

All in all, we are a side that reeks of poor coaching. Most of the teams facing us look much better organised than us. For me, McKenna and Carrick are as much to blame as Ole and Phelan. In my opinion, they all need to be replaced. But considering how inept the owners are, I have no faith that they will be able to find the right person for the job.

Agree 100%

 

[Deery]

Look, I am not saying it will have 0 effect on players, I feel it is being overplayed. We have not looked competitive in any PL game this season so far.

Are you telling me we look so bad purely because of fixture pile up? Why is it that we are the only team that look this bad?

I don’t think we are the only ones that look this bad Man City also look terrible for their standards.
If you want to forget all the COVID stuff and focus on the football then sure we’re not performing to what we should be. Can I give you a reason for it then no.

I am not a fly on the wall at Man Utd but it could be down to training, motivation, tactics, fitness, management who knows really. Although I do still think this disaster of a year has something to do with it.

 

[kiristao]

This has been my biggest problem with the United players recently. No one, other than Bruno, seem to care about what's happening on the pitch. No one seems to be up for a fight. Even Rashford isn't running around chasing players like he used to. Mctominay and Fred have a bit of it but unfortunately aren't good enough to be first choice.

 

[Idxomer]

To your point- Ive often wondered these past few years if we're being coached too tightly. We have some amazingly creative players with tons of natural instinct (Pogba, Mata, Bruno, Greenwood, VDB it seems, etc.) but for whatever reason it often comes across so labored. It seems many pro players these days have been so intensely trained on the fundamentals that you almost wonder if coaching to focus on those takes away from what makes them special.

Alternatively of course (and SAF at some pt hinted at that) that players are too cool for school and fail to do the basics that they should be doing which makes it so that they have to be coached too tightly. Im sure coaches will use one explanation, the players the other.

I think though one thing the Mou doc made clear is that the manager in some ways needs to ooze confidence in both himself and the players that are most likely to keep them in the job.

There are a lot of teams in the PL that are coached tightly and United isn't one of them. Arsenal and Leeds are two examples, one with a comparable squad and the other with a worse one. Arteta is implementing a system to fit the players while Bielsa modeled the players to suit his system. Ole has a system and players but both don't have much in common. The players definitely need to be more drilled, and the creative ones shouldn't be exempted, sometimes they need it more than the others.

Regarding that bit of imagination of course it shouldn't be cut completely from the players but there should be a middle ground between LVG's United team and the current one under Ole.

 

[VeevaVee]

It’s not that they lack fitness, they lack focus and concentration. Bruno said in the interview after the Brighton game that they weren’t aggressive enough, a lot of our players just don’t “turn up” to games. They don’t play like they want to win. It’s got nothing to do with coaching drills, it’s a mental thing, and it’s been going on for years. Don’t know about Ole being scary enough or whatever, Jose and LVG fit that mould and we had the same issues with them too.

Does seem like there’s a major culture problem at the club. Moyes ripped that out and LVG set fire to what was left, by all accounts.

 

[Deery]

It’s not that they lack fitness, they lack focus and concentration. Bruno said in the interview after the Brighton game that they weren’t aggressive enough, a lot of our players just don’t “turn up” to games. They don’t play like they want to win. It’s got nothing to do with coaching drills, it’s a mental thing, and it’s been going on for years. Don’t know about Ole being scary enough or whatever, Jose and LVG fit that mould and we had the same issues with them too.

Hate to say it but do you think it could be down to some of the senior players Pogba, Rashford, Martial maybe. There’s games were they can be amazing but there is also games were they don’t seem to turn up, track back, fight for the ball or get about the pitch.

Read Jose Mourhino purposely targeted Rashord and Greenwood because they don’t track back.

You can say what you like about the defence but more often than not they seem to be under pressure. Need everyone giving 100% all of the time like Liverpool did to win the league (although they haven’t started like that this one).

 

[K Stand Knut]

Do not panic, we are Man Utd, we won’t be down forever and you will have a smile back on your Chevy Chase again soon. It may not be with Ole as manager it maybe (I’m an outter) the 67 league title and 68 European cup took 27 years to get back to and we will get there again. Just hope you’re not too old do you actually get to see it ;-)

I genuinely couldn’t care less if we don’t win another trophy in my life time. I’ll get jumped on for saying that because winning trophies is what it’s all about but I’m nearly 40 and I’ve had nearly 30 years of unprecedented success.

I Want success to return to shut the whingey f*cks up.

 

[Revaulx]

Thread like this and this are a good way to work out if a lack of fitness/effort is an issue. It’s not a new problem, that’s for damn sure.

Absolutely!

Ole’s calling out the squad’s poor fitness and work rate at the time of the collapse following his permanent appointment was met on here by a cacophony of scorn, despite your excellent illustration of how bad the team’s work rate had actually become under Jose.

What is doubly disappointing is that not only does he not seem to have improved us since then, but also we have just been comprehensively outrun by a team managed by Jose of all people.

It’s a long standing and deep seated malaise, that’s for sure.

 

[Foxbatt]

They do not know how to play as a team. That is a coaching issue. Also I do not think they have faith in Ole anymore.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

These are the stats that a fit and hard working team can generate.

Most tackles in a Premier League match this season
Leeds United, 32 vs Manchester City

Most tackles won on average this season
Leeds United, 18 per game

Most times possession won back this season
Leeds United, 252

Most blocks
Leeds United, 27

Most presses against an opponent on average
Leeds United, 184 per game

Obviously, not every team has to play the same way but when Ole took the reins he set his stall out about how nobody would out-work us and yet here we are. The players at our three most bitter rivals are running through walls for their manager and our players, well, aren’t.

 

[Yagami]

Some amazing ignorance in this thread, totally disregarding our lack of preseason.

Quite simply, most other teams were able to train and prepare for this season, we weren't (along with the likes of City and Wolves), and that's why we're behind on fitness, both mental and physical.

Except we've never pressed well under Ole. Or any manager in fact.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Probably already been mentioned but it is not fitness. It's coaching.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We were good last season so what is the difference

 

[elmo]

It’s not that they lack fitness, they lack focus and concentration. Bruno said in the interview after the Brighton game that they weren’t aggressive enough, a lot of our players just don’t “turn up” to games. They don’t play like they want to win. It’s got nothing to do with coaching drills, it’s a mental thing, and it’s been going on for years. Don’t know about Ole being scary enough or whatever, Jose and LVG fit that mould and we had the same issues with them too.

Players outlast managers, it's why they can't be fecked and just down tools when the going gets tough. They know they'll get a fresh chance to do it all over again while keeping their high wages.

Ole talks a big game about ridding the squad of players who aren't good enough but in reality, he's encouraging it to happen when you've the likes of Rashford, Pogba and De Gea having a guaranteed spot in the starting 11 as long as they're fit regardless of their form.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Probably already been mentioned but it is not fitness. It's coaching.

Yeah, but the coaching was better last season right?
Why have we turned to shit so fast? I don't buy that it is all down to pre season.
I think there might be problems in the dressing room just like we had under Mourinho.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Yeah, but the coaching was better last season right?
Why have we turned to shit so fast? I don't buy that it is all down to pre season.
I think there might be problems in the dressing room just like we had under Mourinho.

Nope. Our lack of coaching means we are not consistent and when we our individual brilliance is stiffled, we go to utter pants.

 

[Nicoseth]

Would be saddened and surprised if they stopped playing for Ole. Who knows what's gone on behind the scenes though. Maybe he had to rattle some cages after the summer escapades of some of our players. Whatever has happened, our confidence seems to be on the floor. It needs to be fixed, quick. Our upcoming fixtures could actually work in our favor. Last year we upped our game against the top 6, hopefully we can do it again. Otherwise Ole will be gone by the next international break.

 

[AltiUn]

We're not tired. We're lacking match rythm, probably due to not having a pre-season because of our extended stay in Europe last year. If things are still looking shit in a few more games then some big questions need to be asked of the coaching staff, if they aren't already being asked.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The last time I thought we played with real intensity was vs Brighton after the lockdown.

We even pressed them a lot that game.

Too bad that was an outlier.

 

[monosierra]

Agree 100%

Agree, and I'm flabbergasted how a top club like us is so poor at the fundamentals - and has been for a long time. What is going on in our coaching and drilling? Looking at Arsenal, they seem to have developed a systemic way of playing with Arteta. Does OGS and his staff simply not possess the skills to develop a team that way? How about under Mourinho, who has now gotten Spurs to play to his way.

 

[baskinginthesun]

We're not tired. We're lacking match rythm, probably due to not having a pre-season because of our extended stay in Europe last year. If things are still looking shit in a few more games then some big questions need to be asked of the coaching staff, if they aren't already being asked.

I agree with this. Think it is more a match sharpness thing. Even with a proper preseason the first 2 or 3 league games seem to be a bit dull as players find their rhythm in matches.

I do think we are playing catch up in the sense that we're still finding the match fitness and then trying to also find the sharpness at the same time.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Nope. Our lack of coaching means we are not consistent and when we our individual brilliance is stiffled, we go to utter pants.

I agree the coaching is far from great. Although why is every player not performing though? They should look individually good like last season.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

What about you lot who denied the lack of fitness go re-watch our games when we beat City, Chelsea & Spurs. How did our players who work their socks off, press opposition and win 2nd ball in those games turned into bunch of lazy with lack of both determination & intensity like in our last three league games? Explain that, we haven’t change our coach and manager and yet the intensity coming from players have changed. Unless if you have been sleeping under the rocks that you didn’t watch us last season then I‘m not surprised that you can’t see the difference. It’s not coincidence that Wolves & City also suffered.

Perhaps were just game raising cnuts. Turn up as a team when they feel like it because they're certainly not being motivated by Ole or his coaching staff.

 

[Champ]

I can't believe there's still some people on here clinging to the idea that this is just tiredness.
It's just bizarre.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

A lack of coaching, system and motivation makes the players look visually sluggish and unfit. We can’t blame players being unfit at a huge global football club such as united with our vast resource.

This lays at the door of Ole and his coaching staff I’m afraid.

 

[Infra-red]

Ole said he wanted us to be the fittest team in the league and that no United team should ever be outrun. Well, he's been here two years and has completely failed to achieve it.

 

[The Hilton]

Except we've never pressed well under Ole. Or any manager in fact.

You're right about previous managers, for sure, but Ole has clearly tried to move us towards a high pressing system, and we've actually done it quite well in patches. It's fizzled out repeatedly due to fatigue (and a lack of quality depth), but it's definitely there.

 

[FatherWolff]

I can't believe there's still some people on here clinging to the idea that this is just tiredness.
It's just bizarre.

Are you sure. The same thing seem to be happening all around. Top teams really struggleing. Some not. It’s been a really odd start to the season, and not only in England. We have been shit. Really shit, but there might be more to it than one single thing. We where on the way down before last season ended, and two weeks off doesn’t fix that. Not 4 days preseason either.
I think we will see other teams run out of steam, others gaining momentum, only to have it shift again. It will be a strange season all over, and injuries are coming. A lot of them.

 

[Lay]

When did we last have intensity? We moaned about zombie passing under Fergie

 

[romufc]

Have a functional midfield, I guarantee we will see alot more intensity. Forget this 4-2-3-1 crap that makes us rigid.

We need to play a fluid 4-3-3 with one holding and 2 CM's. Initially we could try Fred, Bruno, Matic and develop into a Fred, Bruno, VDB midfield.

We need Donny to cover left, Bruno cover right so even when we press teams, we still have a balanced midfield.

 

[Ali Dia]

It’s our personnel not clicking with our supposed setup. How are we going to press with Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Pogba and Matic- 0 intense press there. Whatever about our forwards half heartedly pressing our midfield has been a major weakness. We rarely win the battle in there and we just try play around it or over it

 

[Champ]

Are you sure. The same thing seem to be happening all around. Top teams really struggleing. Some not. It’s been a really odd start to the season, and not only in England. We have been shit. Really shit, but there might be more to it than one single thing. We where on the way down before last season ended, and two weeks off doesn’t fix that. Not 4 days preseason either.
I think we will see other teams run out of steam, others gaining momentum, only to have it shift again. It will be a strange season all over, and injuries are coming. A lot of them.

Not that many top teams are struggling really, Real, Barca, Sevilla etc all good starts, Bayern, Dortmund etc all made steady starts, Inter and Juve the same.
The freak results can be attributed to numerous points such as no fans, improved lower level teams, lack of cohesion with big teams due to lack of training ground time etc.

 

[FatherWolff]

Not that many top teams are struggling really, Real, Barca, Sevilla etc all good starts, Bayern, Dortmund etc all made steady starts, Inter and Juve the same.
The freak results can be attributed to numerous points such as no fans, improved lower level teams, lack of cohesion with big teams due to lack of training ground time etc.

Disagree. Watched all their games bar a couple. They have been proper shit! Bayern started good, but fell apart like Liverpool. I think we will have a lot of them “freak results” this year, and teams will struggle keeping their runs constantly. Already we have started seeing muscle injuries, and a lot more to come. This season is something else, and people should not be to bombastic as to why.

 

[tjb]

Things that have been recurrent in our play style under Ole and even Jose during the last few years:
1. Much more emphasis on recovery pressing individually rather than collective, organised pressing with blocking passing lanes.
2. No clear passing patterns and movement, mostly some long balls, hopeful crosses often underhit/overhit, some individual combination play that breaks down after 3-4 moves showing the lack of systemic coaching.
3. No tempo most of the times to exploit gaps in opponent's defence, and at times when we do have them, it mostly breaks down due to poor passing, lack of penetrative, quick passes.
4. Passing is inconsistent, and some of the players are horrible at it. Also, there are some players who makes runs from the deep, only to pass sideways/backwards, showing lack of clever movement. Very poor set pieces other than direct free kicks.
5. We still haven't figured out how to break low blocks, even after having so many technical players in the squad.
6. Poor positioning, sometimes huge gaps between players, sometimes 3-4 players occupying the same space.
We are mostly dependent on counter attacks through the runs and individual skills of Bruno/Rashford/ Martial/Greenwood. Some basic wingplay, some combination play and occasionally some clever movement from the forwards are there.

All in all, we are a side that reeks of poor coaching. Most of the teams facing us look much better organised than us. For me, McKenna and Carrick are as much to blame as Ole and Phelan. In my opinion, they all need to be replaced. But considering how inept the owners are, I have no faith that they will be able to find the right person for the job.

That's a scewed argument. Passing inconsistency, poor positioning...these are things players bring. Put Pep with some of the players Mourinho and Ole have had and you will see what LVG had. It's that simple, if you don't have the players, you won't play well. Ole now finally has the players. The end of last season, which people seem to forget easily, was a period in which we played some of the best football we have played since 2010. We had the people to build up from the back, the players to make the right passes and finish the chances.

Another mistake is not realising that until last season, neither rashford or martial were actually good players, decent but not good. They were highly inconsistent and could played in moments rather than consistently. They have improved, but still aren't at a level where they provide consistent levels of quality. in 04-05 when united could only score 58 league goals, due to injuries and poor transfers we lacked the consistent quality in attack to score consistently. It's that simple. By 06-07, where rooney and ronaldo had improved significantly, both of them, in addition to Giggs were the core sources of our quality that season. Really watch City and Liverpool and you will see that in attack, their key attackers demonstrate the flair and quality that allows them to score the amount of goals that they do. Most of their goals are not as team oriented as the press would have you believe. We have always blamed managers for things players are responsible for. For example, Fred misplacing passes or Lindelof losing aerial duels has nothing to do with the manager. The players are not robots, their quality determines how much of the coaches design they can implement. Unless you think Ole tells Lindelof to lose duels to small players, then he has nothing to do with that.

In terms of our fitness, It clearly has a lot to do with the lack of preseason and our previous lack of options on the bench. Speak ill of Ole all you want, but his consistent team sheets and their performance are what got us into 3rd last season. The tiredness from that, in additon to the lack of preseason preparation from our coaches is what has made us poor this season so far. I blame Ole for this however, because he should have anticipated this abrupt start and gotten our players acclimatized to the required levels of fitness and our tactics. Its clear that our coaching staff were also unprepared for the season, and tactically it is also showing in addition to the lack of fitness. The premier league is too tough of a league to simply go into unprepared and I believe that is what has hurt us so far. Hopefully the international break fixes this.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It's another excuse for Ole in the long list of excuses.

 

[Gordon S]

At the moment, i think its because our key players, the players that should see a lot of the ball and control our play are tall, cumbersome and slow. Maguire -Matic- Pogba center axis will always look like they/we are stuck in second gear. No point in our attackers running like crazy and chasing players if the rest of our team is jogging forward. The options with players like Bailly, Fred and Scott are more energetic but not as composed and creative as the first three.
A more mobile first choice cb and a quicker, more energetic natural dm this window could have improved us quite a bit.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Disagree. Watched all their games bar a couple. They have been proper shit! Bayern started good, but fell apart like Liverpool. I think we will have a lot of them “freak results” this year, and teams will struggle keeping their runs constantly. Already we have started seeing muscle injuries, and a lot more to come. This season is something else, and people should not be to bombastic as to why.

So you're saying Ole should get a free pass this season because, "this season is something else?"

How about we wait until December to see exactly where we're at in regards to the other teams before being so generous with Ole?

 

[redmanx]

It’s not that they lack fitness, they lack focus and concentration. Bruno said in the interview after the Brighton game that they weren’t aggressive enough, a lot of our players just don’t “turn up” to games. They don’t play like they want to win. It’s got nothing to do with coaching drills, it’s a mental thing, and it’s been going on for years. Don’t know about Ole being scary enough or whatever, Jose and LVG fit that mould and we had the same issues with them too.

Agreed, the players have no fear of the manager and I wonder if most of them have any respect for him either. Bruno seemed genuinely disappointed by his own and the teams performances of late, but McTominay was close to tears and his anger was clear to see, I got the impression that he wanted to call certain players out but knew he couldnt do that so he generalised about the team performance. If others had his passion and desire maybe we wouldnt have a team of "Bluffers" as Roy Keane called them. We need a radical overhaul; of the starting XI v Spurs, Baily, Shaw, Matic and Pogba, senior professionals who should be an example to others, were simply not good enough and didnt seem too bothered about it. The only time Martiall became animated was when he retaliated and got sent off; Maguire needs to get his private life sorted out and Rashford, Greenwood and Bissaka need a kick up the arse but these 3 will improve and without the poor example set by the "senior players" mentioned will be far better players for it.