I don't think Chelsea, Liverpool or City would be banging down our door to take our defense or midfield off our hands.
Our squad now vs the squad Ole inherited
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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I didnt say they would. Yet the point still stands.
Realistically only Cavani and Pogba will be missed, with most probably happy that the latter is going to leave. It always felt like a bit move for Haaland was the plan to replace Cavani.
The rest of them? Who cares, they’re not good enough. Even the likes of Henderson, Donny and Lingard will surely wait for the new manager to come in before making decisions.
I'm perfectly willing to give him another chance, I'm just not very hopeful he'll come good. It's not a like a manager can make him faster, more mobile or give him a better first touch. Maguire panics and does silly stuff for England as well, not unlike the the Maguire we saw in the previous 2 seasons (current one excluded).
Those 3 won a title at Inter, and Lukaku has proven himself a good player. Lingard is a better winger/no 10 than Pogba and Herrera is a better DM than McT or Matic. I'm happy we added some good players, but we have a habit of underrating players that went off to have success elsewhere (Lukaku and Memphis are great examples of this). Maguire and AWB are duds until proven otherwise. So we signed 2 duds in key positions and we've neglected 2 crucial positions (GK and DM) for some weird reason. Our squad is only marginally better than what it was and not "a million miles" better.
Who takes their place in the squad? We're not just going to go and sign 5-7 players in the next window.
This should have been in the thread OP. Thank you for this.
Matic Herrera at that time was better than Pogba McTominay now. Lingard and Lukaku are fine players. Dalot and Darmian are awful, but we've also played with AWB and Dan fecking James for a good bit.
Do we need to replace them? The squad is bloated so much that the youngsters can’t even get a look into the league cup squad.
Mata, Grant, Jones probably won’t play a game this season.
Henderson is effectively already replaced by Heaton (there is a good chance we sell De Gea and keep Henderson, but either way it’s the same thing).
Bailly can be replaced by Tuanzebe, Martial doesn’t really need replacing as we have too many left sided forwards.
That’s six players gone with no effect on the squad and no incoming needed to replace them. Clearly midfield is the biggest problem, but maybe Donny will turn out to be that guy with a new defensive midfielder.
No, it doesn't. But I'm not talking about individuals. I'm stating that the squad is better compared to what it was three years ago. Not brilliant, not perfectly balanced - just better than it was.
And, yes, I genuinely believe that the next man will have less of a job on his hands in terms of what we lack - at this point - with regard to having a brilliant squad.
It won't kill anyone to admit that. It doesn't mean Ole has done a stellar job. It isn't necessary to insist that every single aspect of his period in charge was terrible.
Well we're not competing with the likes of Chelsea and City with just a decent starting XI and no depth. Just because Ole wouldn't rotate players it does not mean thats how you win trophies, you need a squad of 2 quality players in every position.
The start has been so bad, that even if we win the remaining 26 games, still our points would not be enough for the title in 3 of the last 4 seasons. I think it would be enough this year, but still shows what a horror start given the ambition was title challengers
I think we have a good squad, just need a manager that knows how to use it.
but he's talking about the squad not an isolated first team sheet though. Ole's last game had VDB, which would be a poor reflection of the first team he preferred but a not so bad reflection of the midfield options as a whole. The state of their first team and the state of the squad as a whole overlap but are still somewhat different. For example Jose left behind Martial and Rashford in the squad who later combined to give Ole one of his best seasons at the club. Does the criteria credit Jose for those?
Also a guy like Lukaku as much as i disliked him was a decent piece. Even without using him Ole and the club got to pocket 75m from his sale. Do we also credit Jose for leaving behind redeemable assets? Not a Jose fan but let's be fair here.
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He left us with a defense that has an 80m walking disaster, a 50m fullback that can't play 2 good games in a row, a left back who only played, what, one good season in his career with United so far ? and Varane who's 28 years old and injury prone like hell.
He left us with a shit midfield that a new manager will need to reinforce because he spent the money on 45m bench warmer.
He left us with a 2 +35 years old strikers that have no future in the club beyond one more season.
He didn't develop any youngsters bar Greenwood who was already a known talent in the academy, hardly a masterstroke or hidden gem.
He splashed 90m on Sancho whom looks like a flop now.
He took us 6th and miles away from the top and left us 8th and miles away from the top.
He has been a complete disaster of an appointment. Pretty much the only undisputable successful signing he made is Bruno.
He left us with a shit midfield that a new manager will need to reinforce because he spent the money on 45m bench warmer.
He left us with a 2 +35 years old strikers that have no future in the club beyond one more season.
He didn't develop any youngsters bar Greenwood who was already a known talent in the academy, hardly a masterstroke or hidden gem.
He splashed 90m on Sancho whom looks like a flop now.
He took us 6th and miles away from the top and left us 8th and miles away from the top.
He has been a complete disaster of an appointment. Pretty much the only undisputable successful signing he made is Bruno.
As I said it depends on who will utilise this squad. Take Ole for example - he doesn’t know what to do with Sancho and he might be an expensive flop. Donnie doesn’t play so what difference does it make if he is better than Fred?
Take Klopp for example - couple of injuries last year and it fell apart. Some managers have particular style and players like Shaw, AWB, Maguire, Ronaldo might not fit.
If we appoint a counter attacking manager next with deep defensive line - then this squad is better as most of the starters fit that style a lot better. Maguire won’t be exposed, AWB won’t contribute that much going forward, Shaw’s positional sense and awareness can be covered. We have the pace and directness on counter and Bruno can pass and move into space.
If Ten hag comes Donnie will be ok, but Ronaldo won’t press and he has to play otherwise the harmony in the dressing room will be crap, AWB and Shaw are useless and Maguire turns like a bus let alone the number of mistakes he makes in possession.
It has nothing to do with Ole at this point in terms of topic. It is what it is. Unless you want to build unrealistic expectations for the next manager in line based on names rather than squad as a whole.
I said Lukaku was out of shape - not that he was a bad player. He was out of shape and he was terrible for us as a result. I never wanted to sell Memphis I thought he didn't get a fair shake, a similar type of situation to Sancho now - just someone who didnt get going. You suggest Maguire and AWB are duds until proven otherwise - fair - but they'll prove otherwise with coaching. The squad is a league winning squad. It provides the best first xi and bench in the Premier League. You have absolutely no idea how badly coached we have been.
Every single one of these points you make is due to the fact that we are [were] atrociously coached.
But half the players quoted wouldn’t start for most Premier League clubs. How do they help us compete against Chelsea?
From a rough count, there’s 28 players not including those loaned out (Tuanzebe, Andreas, Williams etc) and those who are on the cusp of the first team (Hannibal, Elanga etc). It’s crazy. Far far too big.
A count of City’s shows about 23, depending on who you include. And Pep rotates a lot. Chelsea 25 and that includes the likes of Sarr and Chalobah.
It's a tough call. Talent is there, but is it a coherent side? For instance, I think ten Hag would take almost any single player from our squad to improve his Ajax side, but collectively they might not fit too well, as there was obviously the main thing lacking, which was a clear vision for how to mould a team. I also suspect there aren't enough tough characters in the side. Will be interesting to see how they respond to a serious manager, shrinking violets like Martial or will they step up?
Cristiano, Cavani, Martial
Greenwood, Rashford
Sancho, Diallo
Bruno, Van De Beek
(Pogba/8), Fred
DM, McTominay
Shaw, Telles
RB, Wan-Bissaka or Dalot
Varane, Lindelof
CB, Maguire
De Gea/Henderson
I think the squad is significantly better now in that signing a CB and a midfielder plus fixing Pogba or signing two and the right manager should be a strong team.
Greenwood, Rashford
Sancho, Diallo
Bruno, Van De Beek
(Pogba/8), Fred
DM, McTominay
Shaw, Telles
RB, Wan-Bissaka or Dalot
Varane, Lindelof
CB, Maguire
De Gea/Henderson
I think the squad is significantly better now in that signing a CB and a midfielder plus fixing Pogba or signing two and the right manager should be a strong team.
To me, Ole's squad building shied away from the area that needed fixing most - the midfield - which is kinda unforgivable considering how glaring the issue has been for years.
Central midfield is so far away from what we need. It was already below standard before Ole came, when Matic still had legs and we still had Herrera. We're arguably even worse off in that department now. How can that be the case after 3 years? When other top clubs have sorted out their midfields during this time?
Being that this is a fundamental area of the pitch, it leaves the next manager with a huge task to somehow balance the side and connect the defense and attack together.
Central midfield is so far away from what we need. It was already below standard before Ole came, when Matic still had legs and we still had Herrera. We're arguably even worse off in that department now. How can that be the case after 3 years? When other top clubs have sorted out their midfields during this time?
Being that this is a fundamental area of the pitch, it leaves the next manager with a huge task to somehow balance the side and connect the defense and attack together.
Whatever new manager that comes in needs to be ruthless and offload players like Mata, Lingard, Pereira, Jones, Fred, Martial etc, get them off the wage bill and replace them with quality that will be a certain improvement. The middle of the park needs an overhaul and we still need a proper striker. Ronaldo and Cavani will be done next season. Then we are left with only Greenwood. Unfortunately there's still major holes in the squad.
Now the season is coming to an end I’m reminded of this thread. Ole has set us back by years with his shit squad building
a proper disaster of a manager
a proper disaster of a manager
Did he even build a squad? Initially he wanted “young British players” hence why you signed Dan James and AWB. That plan was quickly scrapped, then who did the squad building?
I still don’t think the squad is that bad. We have a load of players out of form and confidence.
As a group we are not good enough to play like City or Liverpool. Ole showed that if you manage them properly and set them up to their strengths they can be effective.
We had plenty of problems under Ole but we didn’t do too badly in leagues and cups and played very enjoyable football at times. Should have done better but what’s new with that?
The job was incomplete, more players were needed. A proper striker a la Haaland and a proper midfielder were essential to make the next step forward. In my opinion, the players, and maybe the management too, became complacent. They thought they were closer than they were. The England contingent thought they were world beaters. Wrong.
Fifteen (or so) of our players can be worthy squad members still. ETH will hopefully have time to finish the job Ole started and I don’t really think he is going to bin half the squad. He’ll tweak it over two or three windows and will evolve the style as improvements to the squad allow him to do it. I think he’ll do okay with a lot of the guys we have.
As a group we are not good enough to play like City or Liverpool. Ole showed that if you manage them properly and set them up to their strengths they can be effective.
We had plenty of problems under Ole but we didn’t do too badly in leagues and cups and played very enjoyable football at times. Should have done better but what’s new with that?
The job was incomplete, more players were needed. A proper striker a la Haaland and a proper midfielder were essential to make the next step forward. In my opinion, the players, and maybe the management too, became complacent. They thought they were closer than they were. The England contingent thought they were world beaters. Wrong.
Fifteen (or so) of our players can be worthy squad members still. ETH will hopefully have time to finish the job Ole started and I don’t really think he is going to bin half the squad. He’ll tweak it over two or three windows and will evolve the style as improvements to the squad allow him to do it. I think he’ll do okay with a lot of the guys we have.
The squad he inherited had better characters/professionals.
Honestly give me a pitbull like rojo was always willing to go to war over telles, smalling over Maguire, romero over henderson as number 2 or even de gea tbh, herrera over our entire current midfield, fellaini over most of our midfield options in terms of character, impact and fight, young and darmian are barely any worse than bissaka and didn't cost 45 million, lukaku over martial, rashford, cavani and there is also an argument over ronaldo as well considering his age.
Honestly give me a pitbull like rojo was always willing to go to war over telles, smalling over Maguire, romero over henderson as number 2 or even de gea tbh, herrera over our entire current midfield, fellaini over most of our midfield options in terms of character, impact and fight, young and darmian are barely any worse than bissaka and didn't cost 45 million, lukaku over martial, rashford, cavani and there is also an argument over ronaldo as well considering his age.
Pure delusion all over this take.
Most of the players you list as being superior were average or on the way down in terms of age. At their best some of them might have been useful but there’s no compelling case.
In truth we’ve not had any consistently outstanding players for a long long time. That said, I think the current crop can be organised and roused to a respectable performance level, more so than the squad Ole inherited, but we are two elite players away from being able to field a balanced side that will compete.
Two transfer windows and a year of TenHaag Law will reveal all.
From my previous post, I thought this squad was better only in the forwards' area.
Well, that's not close to being true anymore and we don't even have anyone that could be sold for 70m+.
Well, that's not close to being true anymore and we don't even have anyone that could be sold for 70m+.
I totally agree about the midfield. I am sure Ole knew we were weak there and he was obviously not happy with the player we brought in, VDB.
It’s just my interpretation of what happened but surely recruitment was influenced too much by commercial / marketing potential. Sancho and Ronaldo have both been decent but I just can’t believe Ole wanted them over a top midfielder.
They were better by default than the current feeble minded and expensive flops that I mentioned, not because they were great players.
Both the Mourinho administration and the Ole administration had spent the money poorly. We can add LVG into the mix as well
In theory it must be better but the mentality is severely worse.
At least under mou they won some stuff.
At least under mou they won some stuff.