P&G Draft - Final: Theon/Gio vs harms

[Indnyc]

Suurbier was average defender and compensated with high energy, stamina and attacking output. His defensive ability was all over the place tho. If it wasn't for the total football and generally great Holland side of the 70's he won't get near all time drafts.

He was a system player who thrived in successful team, but put against a quality winger and he's toast.

Fair point

 

[2mufc0]

Just nostalgia syndrome going on, because we see Marcelo and other modern players week in week out the mistakes get overblown. I'm sure the legends of the past had plenty of howlers too.

 

[Moby]

Plus, as I said, he thrived with Ronaldo and constantly created opportunities for him with his crossing and Romario (1,67 cm.), Bebeto (1,78 cm.) and Maradona (1,64 cm.) aren’t a considerable aerial threat against Vidić and Moore — it limits Marcelo’s and Cafu’s game and makes them more predictable and easier to defend against.

This is incorrect as his biggest strengths are pace, stamina, dribbling, control, 1-2s and cut-backs to the forwards on the edge of the box. He's not a left sided Manny Kaltz.

 

[harms]

This is incorrect as his biggest strengths are pace, stamina, dribbling, control, 1-2s and cut-backs to the forwards on the edge of the box. He's not a left sided Manny Kaltz.

It's a very big part of his game; and without an option to make a high cross he becomes less threatening and more predictable

 

[Theon]

It's a very big part of his game; and without an option to cross he becomes less threatening — because he'll have to go inside, to dribble without having an option to go outside.

How would he not have an option to cross to - you don’t need to be 6 ft to get on the end of a cross. You also don’t need to hit crosses in the air, I’d actually argue those low driven ones are more dangerous anyway particular if a striker has good off the ball movement.

 

[harms]

How would he not have an option to cross to - you don’t need to be 6 ft to get on the end of a cross. You also don’t need to hit crosses in the air, I’d argue those low driven ones are more dangerous anyway.

Yeah, I worded it badly. He has an option to make a low cross or to go inside, but having someone like Ronaldo in the box maximised his creative potential (and vice versa) to an extent to which Romario's presence wouldn't.

 

[Moby]

It's a very big part of his game; and without an option to make a high cross he becomes less threatening and more predictable

Like I said, completely disagree on that being his primary offensive threat.

 

[Theon]

Yeah, I worded it badly. He has an option to make a low cross or to go inside, but having someone like Ronaldo in the box maximised his creative potential (and vice versa) to an extent to which Romario's presence wouldn't.

Just don’t agree at all to be honest, as Aldo said you’re presenting his offensive game as being about getting to the by line and lofting these crosses into the box, when it was much more about technical interplay and slicing defences open with his dribbling. The Ronaldo partnership was fantastic but that was mainly imo due to Ronaldo vacating that space and giving him the run of the left channel, that was tactically what worked well. Obviously if you have an aerial threat like Ronaldo then an offensive wingback like Marcelo would occasionally pick that out, but that’s more a consequence of Ronaldo’s skill set than anything to do with Marcelo being a player who loved to loft in aerial crosses.

 

[harms]

Just don’t agree at all to be honest, as Aldo said you’re presenting his offensive game as being about getting to the by line and lofting these crosses into the box, when it was much more about technical interplay and slicing defences open with his dribbling

Okay, again, probably worded that wrong. I think that it's a big part of his game, although of course his astonishing dribbling and smart cutbacks and one-twos still remain; not that he is only a crossing machine. He is one of the best crossers in the world and for me not having an aerially threatening striker is not utilising his full potential.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

As an aside on the Fullback discussion, one thing i noticed regarding Brasilian FBs when i used to trade games and discuss football with a few Brasilian collectors back in the 90s/00s/early 10s was that when any discussion turned to that area-specifically 80s and onward-they all invariably rated the 80s\early 90s guys like Leandro, Junior, Jorginho etc highest. Then came Cafu and Roberto Carlos either on the samel level or slightly behind. None seemed to have too much time for Alves or Maicon, Marcelo wasn't in the discussion then, but the one guy i still have contact with-a veritable encyclopedia of Brazilian football of the past 50 years- thinks he's been little other than a liability and sieve most of his NT career and doesn't like Alves either.

I don't have a dog in this fight and put some of it down to age bias and NT focus over club career(none of these cats give two shits about Real Madrid or Barca CL wins compared to how you play for the NT), but it was interesting to get these different perspectives as i imagine most Europeans that probably cared/saw less how they were performing on the NT scene would have a very different rating.

 

[MJJ]

As an aside on the Fullback discussion, one thing i noticed regarding Brasilian FBs when i used to trade games and discuss football with a few Brasilian collectors back in the 90s/00s/early 10s was that when any discussion turned to that area-specifically 80s and onward-they all invariably rated the 80s\early 90s guys like Leandro, Junior, Jorginho etc highest. Then came Cafu and Roberto Carlos either on the samel level or slightly behind. None seemed to have too much time for Alves or Maicon, Marcelo wasn't in the discussion then, but the one guy i still have contact with-a veritable encyclopedia of Brazilian football of the past 50 years- thinks he's been little other than a liability and sieve most of his NT career and doesn't like Alves either.

I don't have a dog in this fight and put some of it down to age bias and NT focus over club career(none of these cats give two shits about Real Madrid or Barca CL wins compared to how you play for the NT), but it was interesting to get these different perspectives as i imagine most Europeans that probably cared/saw less how they were performing on the NT scene would have a very different rating.

That's probably fair, for Brazil alves and marcelo have always underperformed, they probably rate maicon more than alves too.

 

[Gio]

As an aside on the Fullback discussion, one thing i noticed regarding Brasilian FBs when i used to trade games and discuss football with a few Brasilian collectors back in the 90s/00s/early 10s was that when any discussion turned to that area-specifically 80s and onward-they all invariably rated the 80s\early 90s guys like Leandro, Junior, Jorginho etc highest. Then came Cafu and Roberto Carlos either on the samel level or slightly behind. None seemed to have too much time for Alves or Maicon, Marcelo wasn't in the discussion then, but the one guy i still have contact with-a veritable encyclopedia of Brazilian football of the past 50 years- thinks he's been little other than a liability and sieve most of his NT career and doesn't like Alves either.

I don't have a dog in this fight and put some of it down to age bias and NT focus over club career(none of these cats give two shits about Real Madrid or Barca CL wins compared to how you play for the NT), but it was interesting to get these different perspectives as i imagine most Europeans that probably cared/saw less how they were performing on the NT scene would have a very different rating.

Yeah that's a good point about where you deliver the goods and it's fair to say that the top tier of Brazilian full-back were world class at club and international level. Cafu, Carlos, Carlos Alberto, Djalma and Nilton Santos cut it at both levels, winning the World Cup, which elevates them into their own tier. Those that haven't won the World Cup simply won't get that recognition. Leandro is a good example in that I thought he was absolutely superb for Flamengo, had a strong World Cup in 1982, but that team fell short and so does his legacy.

All of that said, I suspect there's an element of era bias there from those boys though given these players all peaked around the same time. Often it's these guys were brilliant when I was at my most impressionable and have left the most indelible mark on my appreciation of the game. We're all guilty of that to some extent.