P&G Draft - Final: Theon/Gio vs harms

[Gio]

@harms Can you expand on your strategy for dealing with Diego Maradona? All eggs in the Desailly basket? Any back-up plans? Maradona's nimbleness, close control and surging dribbling would likely cause Desailly some significant problems. We were discussing in an earlier match about Ronaldo up against Desailly and Marcel had always said he'd be his worst possible opponent with that close control and nimbleness. Replicate that here and we could see some carnage. As he said himself when choosing his best all-time XI:

Diego Maradona
The best player I've seen in my life. He did things that didn’t seem humanly possible. When he was on top of his game, and even without training that much he was always in form, he was simply impossible to control. He decided matches alone, carrying average teams like Napoli, and Argentina in 1986, to glorious achievements. A genius. I would play him just behind my two centre forwards.

Striker
Ronaldo
I'm a great fan. I've never seen a player able to show such precise control at such a high speed. Watching him was like watching a character in a video game. Even now, though he is fatter and weaker due to all the injuries he suffered, I still think he's the best forward in the world.

 

[harms]

Both share a similar problem - the lack of service from defence (not great transition from anyone bar Moore) and midfield (given it's outmanned)

Neither Breitner, not Schweiny will win you the possession battle, it's a very direct midfield and you won't keep the ball from Suarez

@harms Can you expand on your strategy for dealing with Diego Maradona? All eggs in the Desailly basket? Any back-up plans?

Same as your plan to deal with Pelé — and I'd take Desailly on Maradona before Schweiny on Pelé. Strict zonal defending with Desailly minding Maradona most of the time. He won't stop him completely, and I don't think that there is a player who is capable of that, but I'm absolutely certain that I'll outscore you.

 

[Himannv]

I have to say I'd really hate to be up against @Theon in a match. That man can sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo.

EDIT: Having said that I do think @harms has the better team here. I think Law + Pele is an excellent pairing and I've always felt underwhelmed whenever I watched Bebeto.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Reading Phil Neal as some kind of defensive weakness is nonsense. Even against Marcelo in Back 5, he's good enough to not get 'rinsed'.

I like Vidic, but then Romario is a different beast altogether and this was the reason I voted for Gion.

 

[Gio]

I have to say I'd really hate to be up against @Theon in a match. That man can sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo.

EDIT: Having said that I do think @harms has the better team here. I think Law + Pele is an excellent pairing and I've always felt underwhelmed whenever I watched Bebeto.

Maybe you are right that I shud'nt be fully dismissive. But I still dont rate him good enough to be in a final. In an all time draft, which round do you think Bebeto would go in? I dont think in the first 11 rounds.

I don't call him not suitable here or a overrated player in general but he doesnt belong in a final. I'll shut up if you can find one voter to say otherwise.

Whether Bebeto is final worthy or not is missing the point, it's the Romario/Bebeto partnership that is final worthy. Team building isn't about 11 individuals assessed solely on their individual merits. It's about having a cohesive whole unit that is greater than the sum of its parts. It's about getting the best out of your star players by using them alongside the right type of supporting cast.

We decided to drop Rivaldo in order to get the best out of Maradona and Romario - two even greater talents than he was. Bebeto is a great foil for both of them. He complements Romario in every way and we have World Cup winning proof of how electric they were together. Plenty of strike partnerships have won the World Cup, but very few have been as singularly influential as those two. In fact I cannot recall another World Cup winner that was so heavily reliant on its strikeforce. That Brazil side had plenty of quality, but with a poorer pair of strikers or a less cohesive duo, they wouldn't have won. Bebeto works the channels, links up well and is hugely slippery - his attitude, mobility and technical skill make him the perfect foil.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Then this must be your first draft here

Two striker systems like diamonds. Against great wingers, a 3-5-2 is suspect to being over run defensively when the wing backs push forward or suspect to being limited offensively if the team is conservative.
Its the same discussion that has been discussed to death. You cant have a defender and attacker at the same time.

I would have probably agreed with you fully if Harms struck with Lerby-Suarez which is what lost him my vote in the semis. Desailly Suarez is pretty complimentary for me. Of course, sometimes nothing is good enough against Maradona.
I do agree partially with you though because Suarez definitely is not a defensive monster despite his work rate. But then, I am fine that he struck with him because this is how a Pele side should look. A more hard working Gerson in Suarez and a better defensive cover than Clodoaldo in Desailly. You cant better that with anyone in history.

Maybe you are right that I shud'nt be fully dismissive. But I still dont rate him good enough to be in a final. In an all time draft, which round do you think Bebeto would go in? I dont think in the first 11 rounds.

For example, below are the squads in an all time international peak draft. He doesnt feature in any squad. In fact, looks like you were playing too and you chose a pre footage Leonidas in Round 12 ahead of Bebeto.

I don't call him not suitable here or a overrated player in general but he doesnt belong in a final. I'll shut up if you can find one voter to say otherwise.

I like Bebeto because his synergy with Romario is greater than the sum of its parts. Its easier to visualize (for me at least)how the players will flow together with their natural play styles. If the striker was say MvB I could understand Bebeto not being final worthy but he works here with the complementary skills needed.
On Harms side I'd say the same thing about the Suarez pick as its much easier to visualize than the first round set-up.

 

[Indnyc]

Reading Phil Neal as some kind of defensive weakness is nonsense. Even against Marcelo in Back 5, he's good enough to not get 'rinsed'.

I like Vidic, but then Romario is a different beast altogether and this was the reason I voted for Gion.

Out of interest, why do people not rate Neal? His credentials are as good as anybody’s.. One of the most successful full backs of all time?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Out of interest, why do people not rate Neal? His credentials are as good as anybody’s.. One of the most successful full backs of all time?

Just normal. Something in same cadre as Neville. Solid but unspectacular.

 

[harms]

Out of interest, why do people not rate Neal? His credentials are as good as anybody’s.. One of the most successful full backs of all time?

Hardly anyone from that Liverpool team gets enough credit (Keegan, Dalglish, Souness, Hansen — even though they're getting picked from time to time), which is fair enough, considering that we're at the United forum (and that team probably overachieved). He is definitely not in the elite Cafu/Thuram/etc. tier, even though his credentials are as good as they come, but he can be picked more often.

You played 417 games in a row for Liverpool between 23rd of October 1976 to 24th of September 1983. A Liverpool record. How is that possible?

There were two occasions when I could have missed a game. One was when I got a fractured cheekbone. Roger Davis the centre forward at Derby gave me an elbow (on 24th of January 1976). I went in on a Sunday after it occured on Saturday. I had my cheekbone lifted in line with the rest of my face to put my face back in shape. By the way it's never recovered. Come middle of the week I was walking around the training ground watching the players train. We were playing West Ham that Saturday, which was a good footballing team. Bob Paisley came to me on Wednesday and said: 'How you're feeling?' I said: 'I'm ok. I'm over the op and everything else.' I chose to play against the specialist's wishes who said that I shouldn't play for a month. I got away with it.

I got over a broken toe, but I had to play for six weeks with size 8 ½ on one foot and size 7 on the other. Ronnie Moran made me a plaster cast on the little toe I had broken. It was uncomfortable with my normal size shoes. I had to find some way to be still able to kick a ball, tackle and maybe have a little injection to keep the pain away for 90 minutes.

There were little incidents when I could have missed a game but I was doubly determined not to. It was so exciting. I didn't miss a day's training in all those years I was there. I wouldn't ring in for a cold. Every day I had a smile on my face. Obviously to be made skipper at the end of my career was lovely as well.

 

[Indnyc]

Hardly anyone from that Liverpool team gets enough credit (Keegan, Dalglish, Souness, Hansen — even though they're getting picked from time to time), which is fair enough, considering that we're at the United forum (and that team probably overachieved). He is definitely not in the elite Cafu/Thuram/etc. tier, even though his credentials are as good as they come, but he can be picked more often.

Yeah i agree he isn’t Cafu/Thuram level but better than Neville?

 

[harms]

Yeah i agree he isn’t Cafu/Thuram level but better than Neville?

Yeah, I'd say so. Picked Neville originally but it was due to his familiarity with Beckham on the right.

And a fun fact — (I'm in no way in agreement with L'Équipe on that one)

In a quite simply wonderful turn of events, French newspaper L’Équipe have given Phil Neal quite the appraisal in their new rankings of t Top 100 of the best players in the history of the Champions League

 

[Indnyc]

Yeah, I'd say so. Picked Neville originally but it was due to his familiarity with Beckham on the right.

And a fun fact — (I'm in no way in agreement with L'Équipe on that one)

But brings up a good point.. He’s definitely better than he gets credit for here

 

[Gio]

Out of interest, why do people not rate Neal? His credentials are as good as anybody’s.. One of the most successful full backs of all time?

Solid enough in the context of English full-backs. Fine record in the European Cup. In that era a lot of the top teams would have a few players like Neal - steady types who worked hard and were dedicated to the cause. That said, I think it's quite telling that Neal never once got voted as the best right-back in England in the annual PFA Team of the Year awards. Normally he was behind Viv Anderson, who was more athletic, defensively more robust and offered more on the overlap. And there were a few players I can't remember like Danny Thomas or Kenny Swain who got in ahead of him too. I agree with harms on that Liverpool team being somewhat under-rated, but Neal was one of the players who looked somewhat outclassed in the Intercontinental Cup tie with Flamengo which the Brazilians won 3-0. Not exactly a huge sample, but it doesn't provide much reassurance that he'll cut it against this group of Brazilians.

 

[Tuppet]

See a lot of emphasis on Breitner's goalscoring but how was his defensive game when playing midfield ? When I see his Breitnegge games he seem very attacking. Would this leave Schweni too much to do against Pele ?

 

[Theon]

See a lot of emphasis on Breitner's goalscoring but how was his defensive game when playing midfield ? When I see his Breitnegge games he seem very attacking. Would this leave Schweni too much to do against Pele ?

He was offensive positionally but retained his exceptional workrate and ball-winning ability. If you're asking whether he was a defensive screen then obviously that element of his game was tempered when he burst forward. I'm well aware of that though, I argued in a previous game that Schweinsteiger was better defensively than Breitner (harms disagreed and considered Breitner just as good) and the reason I felt like that is that Schweiny has the same tenacity and tackling ability as Breitner, whilst also being more disciplined positionally. I rate Schweinsteiger exteremely highly though and it may be that Breitner was just as defensively effective (Joga could probably clarify).

But anyway to answer your question from my perspective: Breitner was excellent defensively in terms of ballwinning and pressing, but given the nature of his role he wouldn't wrack up interceptions or have the same positional screening qualities that Schweiny or Desailly would.

Second point is that Pele will often be getting picked up by Scirea, given this is the peak forward version being used and not the cultured #10. I think between Schweinsteiger and Scirea (with Breitner chipping in) Pele is as well marshalled as can be. Certainly more so than Maradona is imo.

 

[harms]

I want to emphasize Figo's importance to this game. He'll regularly beat Marcelo and will drag Chiellini out wide, which is suicidal, since Scirea and Barzagli will be left against Pelé and Law. For all the talk about Vidić and Romario, this is the biggest tactical mismatch of the game.

Spoiler: Figo

Pelé against Scirea's predecessors:

 

[harms]

Stop posting at the same time, ffs @Theon @Gio

 

[Joga Bonito]

Classic 3-5-2 against a attacking nuanced 4-2-3-1/4-4-2.

Got to say that forward line of harms is frightening, with Law's dynamism meshing exceptionally well with that forward line. Can't think of a more suitable centre forward for Pele in terms of fit and the set up that harms is utilizing here. I've not seen a more industrious (not Tevez/Seeler working hard at the front lines but dropping into midfield and making his presence felt) and pre knee injury Law is ideal for this attacking set up, esp with Pele unleashing him here. Tostao thrived playing with Pele and both of them enhanced each other's games, and I can see that here with Law and Pele, with Law's dynamism freeing up Pele to wreak havoc in and around the penalty box at will, and vice versa.

Figo's wingmanship and Rensenbrink's trickery and goalscoring prowess meshes together nicely (ideal FB complements too) and they have quite the deadly yet creative duo up front to fully exhibit their quality. Needless to say Suarez ties up everything nicely whilst also adding additional gloss to harms offensive thrust.

Would have preferred a more rounded midfielder in lieu of Desailly given the nature of the set up here but Pele and Law's ability to drop deep and facilitate play and Gion's lack of pressing or industry up front does lessen its impact for me. Also would have preferred a more resolute FB pairing (nothing wrong with them, esp Evra ) but it is an all time draft final after all.

Great synergy and complementary fits in the back 5 and midfield duo for Gion esp the Brazilian WB duo and the dream midfield pairing of Breitner-Schweinsteiger . Esp Breitner who's probably the best supporting playmaking B2B to dovetail with Maradona. Scirea seriously enhances that back 5 in a way that I can't even see Beckenbauer doing, just easy to see him fitting in and how it'll all work out. Maradona will be in his element here with a solid back 5, an industrious and complete midfield duo and the trickery and the innate understanding of the forward duo. Nearly the perfect set up for Diego.

Really tight match up but I can just see harms squeaking this fairly high scoring game as I can see quite a few things going in his favour.

Harms full back duo (harsh on Evra again but given the company he is in) is arguably his weakest point but I don't see Gion capitalizing on it a great deal. Granted Cafu and Marcelo are amazing attacking wing backs but I don't see adequate offensive support* for them and they are up against the lethal and tricky wing duo of Rensenbrink -Figo, with Law and Pele waiting to get on the end of one of their balls.

*Ideally a wide forward or a midfielder who can forage out wide (Breitner as RCM but can see why he's on the left here to help out Marcelo defensively) would have been ideal. Romario was fairly central for a CF and not necessarily a Ronaldo in terms of attacking from out wide and Bebeto was more of an intelligent second striker who could attack the channels but not necessarily a Elkjaer or Rummenigge. I actually preferred Rivaldo (or even del Piero in his 'zone') for this reason and could see Maradona's playmaking and ability to tear apart defenses being better utilized (Careca-Carnevale/Valdano/Cannigia etc). As it stands the offense is a wee bit vertically oriented for me with the wing backs being solely expected to provide width.

On the other hand for all of Scirea's defense organising ability and ability to put out fires, there's just far too much fluidity, firepower and service from various multi faceted forwards for Chillieni and Barzagli to handle, and I can see the defense being stretched and them facing Law or Pele, or Rensenbrink cutting in, one on one isn't ideal.

That could have so easily have been the case had Rivaldo been playing here with Neal as the RB, and the additional movement and trickery and threat from wider areas could have unsettled and stretched harms defense and esp isolate Vidic against Romario for instance. As it stands I can see harms defense being relatively more organized and Moore getting a good handle on Romario's predatory prowling and Vidic being a decent supporting act who won't necessarily be exposed as much as he (or Neal and to a lesser extent Evra) could possibly have been here.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Poor harms, the whole match has been constantly 2v1 I call for points deduction white text

Edit: Obviously not serious, for anyone not reading the white text

 

[Joga Bonito]

See a lot of emphasis on Breitner's goalscoring but how was his defensive game when playing midfield ? When I see his Breitnegge games he seem very attacking. Would this leave Schweni too much to do against Pele ?

He was capable of being an offensive presence but he was quite the all round midfielder for Germany in 1982 (shame that comp got taken down) for instance, bossing the engine room. His defensive game was definitely top notch for a box to box midfielder and he'd complement Schweinsteiger perfectly.

 

[Gio]

Poor harms, the whole match has been constantly 2v1 I call for points deduction white text

Deleted my post within 20 seconds there - one would expect harms to do the same in fairness

We've taken care not to overload the thread. Harms has 15 posts and we have 19 between us. Pretty balanced and those numbers are small beer compared to many draft matches. In fact we didn't bump the thread for 12 hours there just incase he wasn't available and it would be seen as poor taste. It's a tricky one though - do we just let the thread die last night and into this morning or try to generate some debate? It's pretty quiet in here, especially for a final, when we should have so much to talk about.

 

[Theon]

I want to emphasize Figo's importance to this game. He'll regularly beat Marcelo and will drag Chiellini out wide, which is suicidal, since Scirea and Barzagli will be left against Pelé and Law. For all the talk about Vidić and Romario, this is the biggest tactical mismatch of the game.

Nah, it's really not.

Just to give an example - Breitner is a bigger goal threat than Figo and you've got absolutely no one matching up to him. Desailly is great defensively, but by your own admission he's obviously minding Maradona most of the game (as he obviously needs to) so I can't see who's tracking Breitner's runs from midfield.

Chiellini has shut out an inside right Lionel Messi on two occasions, so I disagree he's in any way a liability against Figo or that it's a clear source of goals. The biggest offensive threat on the park is quite clearly the GOAT #10 / #9 combination of Maradona / Romario.

Romario's pace against Vidic / Moore is the clearest route to a goal in the game with the service he'll get from Diego. Don't have any doubts about that.

 

[idmanager]

we should have so much to talk about.

That is romantic drafting <3

 

[Indnyc]

Nah, it's really not.

Just to give an example - Breitner is a bigger goal threat than Figo and you've got absolutely no one matching up to him. Desailly is great defensively, but by your own admission he's obviously minding Maradona most of the game (as he obviously needs to) so I can't see who's tracking Breitner's runs from midfield.

Chiellini has shut out an inside right Lionel Messi on two occasions, so I disagree he's in any way a liability against Figo or that it's a clear source of goals. The biggest offensive threat on the park is quite clearly the GOAT #10 / #9 combination of Maradona / Romario.

Romario's pace against Vidic / Moore is the clearest route to a goal in the game with the service he'll get from Diego. Don't have any doubts about that.

Suarez in his Inter Milan days had great defensive nous. I can see him tracking Breitner fairly well.

 

[Theon]

Suarez in his Inter Milan days had great defensive nous. I can see him tracking Breitner fairly well.

Suárez isn’t fit in any form to track a Powerhouse like Breitner. Great player though.

 

[harms]

The biggest offensive threat on the park is quite clearly the GOAT #10 / #9 combination of Maradona / Romario.

My front four has something to say about it. Plus Romario is picked by Moore and Maradona is picked by Desailly — it's pretty much impossible to find better players to limit them. Your co-managers agrees with me on Romario-Moore duel btw

And your weakest defenders are right against Pelé and Law, unlike mine.

 

[Moby]

We've taken care not to overload the thread. Harms has 15 posts and we have 19 between us.

Yeah but you are two people and he's one and has essentially had to put almost double the effort than either of you.

Going on like that for two veteran drafters who are well aware of it is bang out of order.

 

[Gio]

My front four has something to say about it. Plus Romario is picked by Moore and Maradona is picked by Desailly — it's pretty much impossible to find better players to limit them. Your co-managers agrees with me on Romario-Moore duel btw

And your weakest defenders are right against Pelé and Law, unlike mine.

Slightly disingenuous to say that without reference to the actual pool I was referring to in that draft. It didn't have Baresi, Beckenbauer or Figueroa, and with the very tough restrictions most people's top defenders were the more stoppery types like Forster, McGrath or Godin who had fewer actual limits on their use. And certainly Moore was the best man for a Romario job in that pool. No question about it. Especially paired next to Luis Pereira as he was there, who had pace to burn.

To be fair we had freedom to pick just about any striker and went for Romario because of his 0-60 acceleration in a crowded penalty box was a unique threat that barely any defender could really live with. So ideally you'd want to have some pace in your central defensive partnership to deal with it to cover it, or some sort of high calibre full-back who could tuck in to provide top class central defensive cover. Not seeing any of that here though. Collectively there is a lack of pace there, which Moore makes up for mostly with his world-class reading of the game that he showed so well for England in 1966 and 1970 (look at how well he tackled Jairzinho and Pele dribbling onto him). But it tends to force you to defend deep, which plays into Maradona's hands IMO.

 

[Gio]

Yeah but you are two people and he's one and has essentially had to put almost double the effort than either of you.

Going on like that for two veteran drafters who are well aware of it is bang out of order.

I'm as conscious of double-posting as you are - think the first time I bitched about it was against you and anto.

Having barely posted in the first 12-16 hours, we effectively made the final a 8 hour game in recogniton of harms being (a) presumably tied up and (b) a one-man band. And 19 posts is feck all considering some managers regularly rack up 40-50 single-handedly. Fair enough - I'll apologise for that Marcelo post coming near to a Theon post earlier on - I had drafted it about 12 hours earlier and it sat gathering dust for the reasons above.

 

[Moby]

I'm as conscious of double-posting as you are - think the first time I bitched about it was against you and anto.

Having barely posted in the first 12-16 hours, we effectively made the final a 8 hour game in recogniton of harms being (a) presumably tied up and (b) a one-man band. And 19 posts is feck all considering some managers regularly rack up 40-50 single-handedly. Fair enough - I'll apologise for that Marcelo post coming near to a Theon post earlier on - I had drafted it about 12 hours earlier and it sat gathering dust for the reasons above.

Yeah and that's how it should be.

Why should one manager have the benefit of being able to go offline and have someone take his place? EAP's rule in the current draft is excellent and spot on. Decide on one guy who does the talking, and if they are offline it should hamper their team's case in the same way it would to a solo manager. Tagging in and out should not be allowed at all.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Best of luck @harms and thanks for setting up @Physiocrat

Absolutely delighted to get a Bebeto / Romario front two in one of these. Without a doubt one of the most devastating and complimentary partnerships that I've ever seen, and quite possibly my favourite given the abundance of pace and technical quality. Also fits perfectly with the theme of the draft, around maximising the performance of GOATs with complimentary supporting casts.

Can see hipsters like @Pat_Mustard appreciating this

Yeah, predictably enough I love it. I've got a rampant fetish for Romario as part of a proper striker duo, and Bebeto has got a bit underrated with the passage of time. He was electric as the main man for that first brilliant Depor team in the early to mid 1990s. More importantly,he was an incredibly good foil to Romario, and they had success in the 1989 Copa America as well as winning the WC for Brazil.

Posting this more for the snazzy sound effects after the goals than the football itself:

 

[Gio]

Speaking of partnerships, I find the Maradona-Romario link up potentially unstoppable. We know their considerable individual brilliance, but together it's hard to imagine a better partner for Maradona. One of Diego's greatest qualities was his ability to open up the most tightly packed of '80s defences. He might not score himself, but a slaloming run inevitably caused chaos in the opposition ranks which is why he was fouled so frequently as it offered a chance to reset the defensive organisation and get everyone behind the ball again. But when he wasn't fouled, or he escaped the attempted hack, the disorganisation and disruption this caused in the opposition defence was fatal. That gave a yard to his stike partner - who he'd always find - who could get a shot away. Now sometimes Valdano or even Caniggia or Careca wouldn't always score, but Romario will.

One big thing to have around Diego is willing runners when he kicks off from deep. Burruchaga, Caniggia... they caught on like a house on fire and their movement was all about playing off Diego while Diego's was all about dragging everyone around but all the while being very acutely aware of where his runners were now, and where they would go relative to other defenders, and basically when would be the time to pass, to whom and exactly where he would place the ball for him. He knew it all a long time before it happened and those of us watching only realised what he was seeing a second after he had executed it.

The guy's genius was computing all that and being a few seconds ahead of anyone else on the pitch while dribbling and under pressure from a bunch of players. That's what made him sensational. Not his great solo efforts but his brilliance at consistently setting things up on a plate for others.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

EAP's rule in the current draft is excellent and spot on.

Credit to @oneniltothearsenal

 

[Theon]

I have to say I'd really hate to be up against @Theon in a match. That man can sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo.

Clearly not given the score. I thought we’d win this quite comfortably to be honest so salesmanship can’t have been great.

The players I’ve tried to sell have seemingly gone down terribly - that Juve backline in particular. Even the Romario / Bebeto partnership which seemed a home-run to me when I settled on it has been received really poorly, which blows my mind.

 

[Gio]

Agree with this.

I know there is a lot of love for Marcelo in a 5 man defense but when he comes up against a peak Figo his attacking prowess is going to be somewhat limited.

Just on that point. Neal and Evra could well get exposed. With a 3-5-2 it tilts to whichever side the ball is on. So in one attack Marcelo could be up against Neal, in another attack Cafu could be up against Evra. And with wing-backs that'll be after they've built up a head of steam - and nobody wants to face Cafu or Marcelo when they're already moving up the gears. Those flanks could be chance creation highways which the likes of Romario and Bebeto would love to exploit.

 

[Gio]

This is from a WCQ against Poland which England lost and failed to qualify


Just another anecdote a read a while back...

Spoiler: Geoff Hurst Autobiography

According to Geoff Hurst's autobiography, England full back George Cohen overheard Ramsey talking to his coaching staff about the possibility of dropping Moore for the final (1966) and deploying the more battle-hardened Norman Hunter in his place. However, eventually they settled on keeping the captain in the team. Moore had not been playing badly, nor had he given the impression that he had been distracted by his contract dispute prior to the competition. The only explanation was that the Germans had some rather fast attacking players, which could expose Moore's own lack of pace, and that Hunter – who was of a similar age to Moore but only had four caps – was the club partner of Moore's co-defender with England, Jack Charlton.

Yeah. Love Lubanski. Moore a touch past it there in fairness, but his pace was never a strength, as he admitted himself. Romario would love the match-up IMO.

 

[Gio]

Well played @harms.

 

[Tuppet]

Clearly not given the score. I thought we’d win this quite comfortably to be honest so salesmanship can’t have been great.

The players I’ve tried to sell have seemingly gone down terribly - that Juve backline in particular. Even the Romario / Bebeto partnership which seemed a home-run to me when I settled on it has been received really poorly, which blows my mind.

Well to be fair harms has a scintillating attack as well. I agree though Maradona couldn't be just dealt with a Desailly marking him. You would ideally want another defensively more solid and athletic presence with him ala Keane, BFS or Matthaus. Its hard though, Figo against Marcelo & Chielini makes me want to vote for Harms. Its one of the tightest game I've seen.

 

[P-Nut]

Literally just got on to vote. Sorry guys

 

[idmanager]

Slightly disingenuous to say that without reference to the actual pool I was referring to in that draft. It didn't have Baresi, Beckenbauer or Figueroa, and with the very tough restrictions most people's top defenders were the more stoppery types like Forster, McGrath or Godin who had fewer actual limits on their use. And certainly Moore was the best man for a Romario job in that pool. No question about it. Especially paired next to Luis Pereira as he was there, who had pace to burn.

To be fair we had freedom to pick just about any striker and went for Romario because of his 0-60 acceleration in a crowded penalty box was a unique threat that barely any defender could really live with. So ideally you'd want to have some pace in your central defensive partnership to deal with it to cover it, or some sort of high calibre full-back who could tuck in to provide top class central defensive cover. Not seeing any of that here though. Collectively there is a lack of pace there, which Moore makes up for mostly with his world-class reading of the game that he showed so well for England in 1966 and 1970 (look at how well he tackled Jairzinho and Pele dribbling onto him). But it tends to force you to defend deep, which plays into Maradona's hands IMO.

I just love how you post mate. Excellent points with finesse and fairness.

Also, the good guy bad guy thing works perfectly. No wonder you guys win so many drafts together