P&G Draft - QF: harms vs Team Beam

[Physiocrat]

harms

Tactics

The team is built around Pelé — the greatest player of all-time. He was slightly unlucky on the international stage, if you can say that about a man who won 3 World Cups, as he missed 2 tournaments at his physical peak — we can only imagine how devastating he might have been had he not been injured in 1962 and kicked out of 1966. But when you look at his club side — Santos, you can see that they've used a similar (mirrored) loop sided formation that transformed from 4-2-4 (4-4-2) to 4-3-3, due to the roles of Zagallo and Dorval — a formation, that brought out the best in Pelé, a free-roaming second striker.

I want to highlight that Pelé was not only a goalscorer, but also a creator and probably the most complete attacking player in football's history — here's a good post by Raees on the matter. In Denis Law — a ridiculously all-rounded and unselfish, yet still prolific striker, and Rob Rensenbrink, a brilliant entertainer and goalscorer who shined both in a supporting role for Cruyff's Netherlands and as a main man for Anderlecht and 1978 Dutch side, he has the perfect supporting unit, that combines goals and creativity needed to highlight all facets of Pelé's game.

My midfield is full of hardworking and direct players — I don't need to win the possession battle, and Lerby, Effenberg and Beckham will make it tough for any opponent. It's far from a gung-ho set up — with Lerby especially being used to playing as a deepest midfielder in the team. The key to their game is in quick transitions — all three were used to playing in a quick tempo as well as being brilliant long distance passers. Since my opponent will likely play with a midfield 4, here's a few examples of Lerby holding his own against some great midfields in his era:

• Against the French Carre Magique at 1984 Euros; 1983 friendly
• Against USSR's midfield diamond

A classic 4-men defence is boosted by the additions of Bobby Moore and Phil Neal (4 times European Cup winner), with the former complimenting the intimidating physicality of Vidić with his cultured style of play.

Thoughts on the game

• I think the biggest weakness of Beam's team is how dependent he is on Romario, and, thankfully, I have a perfect man to stop him — aside from Baresi I can't think of a better player to mitigate his influence (and it's not only my opinion)

Spoiler

• And secondly, I don't think that his defence is good enough to stop a Pelé/Law/Rensenbrink unit — will expand on this in the match thread

Team Beam

Tactics

The team is playing in a 352 formation with the intention of fully controlling the game through possession style football and, on the other hand, cutting supply lines to the opponents attacking duo in Pele and Law.

In the attacking phase, we will try to get the most of our clear advantage in the midfield of the pitch where Redondo-Davids-Giresse trio operates linking up with Laudrup in a more advanced position with Romario who will reap the benefits of those great footballing brains behind him.

In the defensive phase, everyone will drop back making a classical 532 which will be hard to break with Davids providing extra steel in the midfield. Davids has a key role in the defensive phase as he will cover for Marcelo runs in the attack and put extra pressure on opponent midfield when we lose the ball and going back in defensive shape.

As soon as the opponent lose the ball, we will try to hit him directly on the counter while he is still lacking bodies in the midfield.

Defence

Gyula Groscis was one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time and while there is hardly ever any advantage in having a better goalkeeper in the draft, he has far superior credentials than the likes of Van Beveren.
In front of him, the defence didn't change and we won't spend much time talking about them, but we will just say that in Stam and Ruggeri (along with Schulz covering behind them) we also have excellent heading ability to deal with maybe the biggest threat consisting of Beckham crosses and Pele on the end of those crosses.

Midfield

In front of defence stands Fernando Redondo, but now with the protection of a power rabbit in Davids who will not only provide extra energy in that midfield, but also the team won't lose anything in terms of possession style as Davids was great in that department while providing a perfect foil for Laudrup to shine like he did so many times with Zidane in that great Juventus team.
Giresse is not only a player with great individual ability but a fantastic team player, who will be a perfect foil for Laudrup like he has been for Platini all those years.

Attack

In the attack stands Romario who reunites his partnership with Laudrup again, waiting for those balls behind the defence or just occupies centre defenders with his fantastic movement, so that Laudrup, Giresse, Marcelo and the rest can take full advantage of this.

Conclusion

Lovely team from harms, but one which relies mostly on Pele magic. And while Pele is always Pele, our team has a clear advantage in all other areas and will force his team on the backfoot for all 90 minutes. That advantage in the midfield area will also massively limit the influence of Effenberg and Lerby to his attack.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Jim Beam @Šjor Bepo @harms

Game on!

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Classic match up with TBeam the advantage in the center and harms with the advantage out wide.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thanks for setting up @Physiocrat

Best of luck @harms

 

[Moby]

That midfield from Team Beam is absolutely orgasmic. Love the dynamic between Laudrup and Giresse. Couldn't find a better 'quality sidekick' for that role than Giresse who would provide just the blend of tactical awareness, creative spurts and hard working off the ball contribution required to get the best out of Laudrup, who in that alpha role could just finish the game with two passes. Redondo taking command of things at the back and Davids being the all action dynamo makes it one of the best midfields I have seen assembled. Lovely stuff.

 

[Jim Beam]

• I think the biggest weakness of Beam's team is how dependent he is on Romario, and, thankfully, I have a perfect man to stop him — aside from Baresi I can't think of a better player to mitigate his influence (and it's not only my opinion)

Just a quick one here. We are not depending on Romario. That would be the case if we thought he is our only goalscoring threat, but there is Laudrup, Giresse bombing behind him and Marcelo who will do what Marcelo does best. Running down that left flank in the attack and isolating Neal numerous times 1 vs 1.

And secondly, I don't think that his defence is good enough to stop a Pelé/Law/Rensenbrink unit — will expand on this in the match thread

Yeah, would like you expanding on this.

 

[Jim Beam]

And secondly, I don't think that his defence is good enough to stop a Pelé/Law/Rensenbrink unit — will expand on this in the match thread

From the previous match, nothing changed in attacking approach.

Pelé and Law's heading from Beckham's crosses is the easiest route to goal (considering that Hansen wasn't an elite header of the ball like Vidić/Ruggeri/Cannavaro and Silva is just not good enough),

Think they will be fine or there is a change to tactics.

 

[harms]

Good luck @Jim Beam and @Šjor Bepo

First of all — expanding on the point about my attack vs Beam's defence. All three of his center backs are class, obviously, but none possess the class needed to stop Pelé. Case in point — Pelé vs Willy Schulz, a game where Schulz played as his marker:

A screamer scored despite Schulz being directly on him

Again, loses Schulz with a brilliant piece of skill (sadly a piece of footage missing here)

Another example of Schulz failing to handle O Rei

Bonus:

Spoiler: Denis Law vs Schulz's Germany (a defence featuring Schulz, Beckenbauer, Vogts and Schnellinger)

 

[harms]

From the previous match, nothing changed in attacking approach.



Think they will be fine or there is a change to tactics.

As you can see, I haven't mentioned the aerial threat in my OP — because, obviously, you're much better equipped to handle it. But on the ground I don't think that any of your very good center backs possess the ability to stop Pelé and to a lesser extent Law and Rensenbrink. It's still a possible route to the goal, but it's not my main tactic, because it would be stupid to do a Moyes with the 3 of your aerially dominant defenders inside the box.

 

[Theon]

I thought the aerial threat was overplayed a little bit anyway @harms so don’t see that as a huge issue. Obviously Beckham was a fantastic crosser, but the interplay between Pele and Law would have been lovely on the ground and thought that aspect was missed a little bit last game.

 

[harms]

Just a quick one here. We are not depending on Romario. That would be the case if we thought he is our only goalscoring threat, but there is Laudrup, Giresse bombing behind him and Marcelo who will do what Marcelo does best. Running down that left flank in the attack and isolating Neal numerous times 1 vs 1.

Neither Laudrup nor Giresse were prolific goalscorers; Giresse scored 6 goals in 47 games for France (my central midfielder Effenberg scored 5 in 35), and Laudrup only once in his 13 seasons spent in Italy and Spain scored more than 10 league goals.

Compare that with Pelé, the greatest goalscorer in history, incredible Law and Rensenbrink who came close to scoring 1 in 2 in his club career (plus he is UEFA Cup Winners Cup's all-time top scorer despite playing on the wing)

 

[harms]

I thought the aerial threat was overplayed a little bit anyway @harms so don’t see that as a huge issue. Obviously Beckham was a fantastic crosser, but the interplay between Pele and Law would have been lovely on the ground and thought that aspect was missed a little bit last game.

As I said, Moby's defence lacked aerial strength, so I concentrated on that, even though of course their interplay on the ground would've been devastating as well. With Schulz, Stam and Ruggeri I expect most of our attacking game would be on the ground, and it's a strange tactic to quote my OP from the last game where it was, literally, a different game and a different game plan @Jim Beam

 

[Jim Beam]

Good luck

Another example of Schulz failing to handle O Rei
[MEDIA=streamable]itldl[/MEDIA]

Lovely videos like always and Pele being Pele. But, also a great example of what will happen to him here with Stam and Ruggeri occupying defence. Btw. he will have Redondo in those areas first. Schulz will never go that far.

As you can see, I haven't mentioned the aerial threat in my OP — because, obviously, you're much better equipped to handle it. But on the ground I don't think that any of your very good center backs possess the ability to stop Pelé and to a lesser extent Law and Rensenbrink. It's still a possible route to the goal, but it's not my main tactic, because it would be stupid to do a Moyes with the 3 of your aerially dominant defenders inside the box.

That's a bit of a stretch. Will be honest and if there is that threat from Beckham being much less of a problem, you're mostly relying on Pele (and Law) magic here. Which is fine, but the way I see it you'll be mostly on the back foot here and because of our midfield and defence not only we handle Beckham danger, but your midfield will be cut off and overwhelmed by ours.
Now, I agree with the notion you don't have to win the possession battle, but that midfield isn't capable of dealing with ours in any way and will have serious problems.
You are defending Redondo-Davids-Giresse-Laudrup here with Lerby and Effenberg and Beckham has to provide a massive shift which will limit his attacking output. Pele was probably the best ever (imo he is), but he always functioned in much more dominating midfield.[/user]

 

[Jim Beam]

Neither Laudrup nor Giresse were prolific goalscorers; Giresse scored 6 goals in 47 games for France (my central midfielder Effenberg scored 5 in 35), and Laudrup only once in his 13 seasons spent in Italy and Spain scored more than 10 league goals.

Compare that with Pelé, the greatest goalscorer in history, incredible Law and Rensenbrink who came close to scoring 1 in 2 in his club career (plus he is UEFA Cup Winners Cup's all-time top scorer despite playing on the wing)

Giresse also had just 4 out 16 seasons scoring less than 10 goals. And why only league goals when it comes to him and Laudrup? On his peak, Laudrup scored 11, 18, 14 in consecutive seasons in Barcelona. But your main problem here is that you giving them a platform to shine.

 

[harms]

Which is fine, but the way I see it you'll be mostly on the back foot here and because of our midfield and defence not only we handle Beckham danger, but your midfield will be cut off and overwhelmed by ours.
Now, I agree with the notion you don't have to win the possession battle, but that midfield isn't capable of dealing with ours in any way and will have serious problems.

I think you're overplaying it. Your midfield is brilliant, but my guys won't be overwhelmed (especially with Laudrup playing further up front). I linked in the OP 2 games that Lerby played against Carre Magique — a midfield very similar to yours in style as well as in quality, where he proved that numerical advantage doesn't matter much to him:

Spoiler: Lerby providing a great defensive shift as well as an assist in a 3:1 win against France with similar midfield formation

Spoiler: Another great performance with Platini in the form of his life

By the way, Effenberg is a less shiny name than Redondo but in their head to head clashes there was only one winner — they've played 3 games against each other, Effenberg won all three, scoring a goal and making three assists, including this beauty

 

[harms]

Giresse also had just 4 out 16 seasons scoring less than 10 goals. And why only league goals when it comes to him and Laudrup? On his peak, Laudrup scored 11, 18, 14 in consecutive seasons in Barcelona. But your main problem here is that you giving them a platform to shine.

Rensenbrink, my third best goalscorer, scored more than 20 goals in 6 consecutive seasons (including one season with 31 goals in 44 games), Laudrup never did it even once
Law scored 163 goals in 5 club seasons, which is equal to what Laudrup scored in his whole club career (164 goals)

There is an abyss between your and my team in terms of goalscoring. That - as well as the best defender on the pitch facing your best and most prolific attacker

 

[Jim Beam]

I think you're overplaying it. Your midfield is brilliant, but my guys won't be overwhelmed (especially with Laudrup playing further up front). I linked in the OP 2 games that Lerby played against Carre Magique — a midfield very similar to yours in style as well as in quality, where he proved that numerical advantage doesn't matter much to him:

Spoiler: Lerby providing a great defensive shift as well as an assist in a 3:1 win against France with similar midfield formation

Spoiler: Another great performance with Platini in the form of his life

By the way, Effenberg is a less shiny name than Redondo but in their head to head clashes there was only one winner — they've played 3 games against each other, Effenberg won all three, scoring a goal and making three assists, including this beauty

Have to overplay our strengths. You're doing it with Lerby also, looks like a one man-midfield the way you picture him. Lovely player and it's always nice to see more of such names here, but there is no way he can't handle that midfield with Effenberg on his own.

And wait a second. Redondo and Madrid knocked Bayern in the semi-final? Redondo being in the midfield with Raul and McManaman?

 

[harms]

Beckham has to provide a massive shift which will limit his attacking output

He always played that way and it never limited his influence

but your midfield will be cut off and overwhelmed by ours

All of Effenberg (especially), Lerby and Beckham were fantastic long passers, and equally comfortable of taking the ball at the back and breaking through the lines (especially Lerby). I don't think that I need to talk about Law's influence in midfield — everyone who watched his games or even Joga's videos knows how hard he contributes (and how it never affects his attacking input) — Law will definitely contribute more to the defensive side of a midfield battle than Laudrup, for example.

Btw. he will have Redondo in those areas first. Schulz will never go that far.

Redondo on Pelé — what could go wrong. I love Redondo, but this is not really the best use of his skills.

 

[harms]

Have to overplay our strengths. You're doing it with Lerby also, looks like a one man-midfield the way you picture him. Lovely player and it's always nice to see more of such names here, but there is no way he can't handle that midfield with Effenberg on his own.

And wait a second. Redondo and Madrid knocked Bayern in the semi-final? Redondo being in the midfield with Raul and McManaman?

They also have Beckham and my attackers — and Laudrup is playing as a part of a front 2.

Real knocked Bayern out, and it was the only game out of 4 that they've won season — the one that Effenberg missed. Again, speaks volumes about his level and his influence on that team.

 

[idmanager]

Agree with the general consensus of that midfield being great and match winning in the formation.

But I again get struck at the same point
When Pele drops deep, is Redondo good enough? Having Davids there is a nice upgrade and helpful, but then I still don't think its fully functional to stop Pele from running rampant.

Say a CB like Schulz helps out from time to time, that then breaks the 5-3-2 setup in general against a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 for me.

I would like to hear more about who all are going to help out against Pele in various phases and positions.

 

[Jim Beam]

By the way, Effenberg is a less shiny name than Redondo but in their head to head clashes there was only one winner — they've played 3 games against each other, Effenberg won all three, scoring a goal and making three assists, including this beauty

4 games, only one winner here harms.

 

[harms]

4 games, only one winner here harms.

They've won the only game that Effenberg missed? I mean how is it relevant at all?

 

[Jim Beam]

They've won the only game that Effenberg missed? I mean how is it relevant at all?

They got beat by the midfield of Redondo-Raul-McManaman. That's the point. Redondo here has much superior midfield in every aspect.

 

[harms]

They got beat by the midfield of Redondo-Raul-McManaman. That's the point. Redondo here has much superior midfield in every aspect.

Well, I don't see how Bayern without Effenberg is relevant to this discussion. Every player here has much better partners than he did in real life, Effenberg also never had players like Pelé and Law playing up front — I mean he won the CL and was voted UEFA Club Footballer of the year (like Redondo the year before) with fecking Elber scoring of his passes.

 

[Jim Beam]

Agree with the general consensus of that midfield being great and match winning in the formation.

But I again get struck at the same point
When Pele drops deep, is Redondo good enough? Having Davids there is a nice upgrade and helpful, but then I still don't think its fully functional to stop Pele from running rampant.

Say a CB like Schulz helps out from time to time, that then breaks the 5-3-2 setup in general against a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 for me.

I would like to hear more about who all are going to help out against Pele in various phases and positions.

It will be covered mostly by Redondo, Davids being in those areas and you have 3 world class behind them. The problem for me here is simple, we will have the ball, we will be the one attacking the most. When they lose it I can't see them doing much but going straight to their attack with long balls and that will limit Pele influence imo.

 

[Jim Beam]

Well, I don't see how Bayern without Effenberg is relevant to this discussion. Every player here has much better partners than he did in real life, Effenberg also never had players like Pelé and Law playing up front — I mean he won the CL and was voted UEFA Club Footballer of the year (like Redondo the year before) with fecking Elber scoring of his passes.

Wrong. I would argue that Bayern midfield in which Effenberg operated is much superior to yours here in terms of balance.

 

[Theon]

As I said, Moby's defence lacked aerial strength, so I concentrated on that, even though of course their interplay on the ground would've been devastating as well. With Schulz, Stam and Ruggeri I expect most of our attacking game would be on the ground, and it's a strange tactic to quote my OP from the last game where it was, literally, a different game and a different game plan @Jim Beam

Yes I know, it wasn’t a criticism. I was saying it’s a positive as I feel like the interplay on the ground is the best aspect of the Law / Pele partnership.

 

[Jim Beam]

Redondo on Pelé — what could go wrong. I love Redondo, but this is not really the best use of his skills.

Lerby against Laudrup and that midfield of ours - what could go wrong (with the help of Effenberg and Beckham shifting from the wing which will influence his attacking input). Your team will be packed and bunkered for the most of the game. That's the reality.

Yeah, Lerby had a good game against France. In a friendly and with Laudrup running the show!? Laudrup scored two in that game you showed btw. That much for him not being an attacking threat.

 

[idmanager]

It will be covered mostly by Redondo, Davids being in those areas and you have 3 world class behind them.

That for me is a definite concern. Can see Pele having a great game here constantly dropping deep like he did in 1970

The problem for me here is simple, we will have the ball, we will be the one attacking the most. When they lose it I can't see them doing much but going straight to their attack with long balls and that will limit Pele influence imo.

Okay, that is wrong at more than 1 levels IMO. You are really underestimating their holding ability and really really over estimating your pressing ability.

I mean, realistically, Davids is the only one with the constant press who can make life hell for the opposite midfield, so much so as to going route 1 most times. Having more midfielders doesn't necessarily mean that you will harass the opposition of the ball. You will definitely enjoy more possession, but winning it back is not just a matter of more numbers.

Secondly, Effenberg for 40 was a super steal. As long as he is in that midfield, it will never be a long pass show. Of course, his long passes were awesome, but he had so much more to his game especially from a play making and linking point of view.

 

[idmanager]

Slightly tilting towards harms for now.
Like to say that I didn't like Rensenbrink with Pele in the last game but here it looks an ace combo against the 5-3-2.

Harms could have put Pele a little deeper IMO.
Will checkout more of the discussion before voting. Good luck both.

 

[Jim Beam]

Secondly, Effenberg for 40 was a super steal. As long as he is in that midfield, it will never be a long pass show. Of course, his long passes were awesome, but he had so much more to his game especially from a play making and linking point of view.

Yeah and Giresse at 20 is non-influence here. Don't take me wrong id, appreciate your input and thinking. Just struggling to see how a team who is on the back foot here will have an advantage just because they have Pele. Pele will be running a show? Marcelo will also run the show and our midfield along with him.

I don't underestimate his midfield, they just lack in numbers and quality compared to ours.

Their defence will be far more exposed and in danger.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Šjor Bepo will take over as I have to work. Apparently to my CEO.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm leaning towards harms. I know I tongue in cheek said that Davids was a sell out to the system but I do think Team Beam now doesn't have sufficient creativity to regularly break down harms' defence especially with Moore there - they would be better to drop Davids and bring in the Spanish guy from the last game I can't spell. Harms has Effenberg is a good long passer to release Law, Pele or Resenbrink on the counter. I rate the Beam's back three but with good service from deep and the on the floor ability of Pele and Law they'll score.

 

[Jim Beam]

I'm leaning towards Lerby being the GOAT.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck @harms

i love a good old 442 but i also think a great 442 has little chance against a great possession team.
The way how you play a 442 at a high level is to have a 2 lines of 4 very deep so in our opinion if we secure ourself after the counter we will be fine, our organised defence would be a very narrow system as we are perfectly fine with them attacking out wide and providing distribution from those areas, even with the greatest crosser of all time on their team. Obviously he will have less space then other 3 candidates but still, we are comfortable in defending that type of attacks and reckon with numbers in the middle we will be able to stop Law and Pele as we dont really Lerby and Effenberg in offensive phase in tight situations.
The way we would secure the counter is to leave 4 players all the time at the back. That will be the complete back 3 + 1 of Redondo, Davids and Armfield.

Its a very good midfield from harms and they have the GOAT winger when it comes to a classic 442 IMO in Beckham but as good as they are i dont think they can stop our midfield. Just to many triangles, players that are great on the ball and players that could dribble their way out of stadium if they wanted. Harms said we dont have enough goals apart from Romario, while i dont agree id still play the game and say we dont need them, we have Romario. With so much talent behind, with his chemistry with Laudrup, there is absolutely no way he would be stopped.

Ohh and one more thing about Pele and Law, to pulls a 442 at this level you need hardworkers up top, i honestly dont know how good they are in that aspect, suspect not that great, specially Pele as he really never needed that before, was always part of the team that dominated the ball so even from that perspective his contribution will be limited. Not saying that will stop him but IMO it would limit him a bit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I'm leaning towards harms. I know I tongue in cheek said that Davids was a sell out to the system but I do think Team Beam now doesn't have sufficient creativity to regularly break down harms' defence especially with Moore there - they would be better to drop Davids and bring in the Spanish guy from the last game I can't spell. Harms has Effenberg is a good long passer to release Law, Pele or Resenbrink on the counter. I rate the Beam's back three but with good service from deep and the on the floor ability of Pele and Law they'll score.

Think you are underrating Marcelo, he is probably alnogside Cafu or even just alone at the top a GOAT fullback when it comes to the offensive contribution. One of the main reasons why Madrid was so successful in last few years, guy dominated the whole left flank for them and had bigger impact offensive wise then most of the wingers from other top teams.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

we wont use Torres argument againt Vida because thats one of the biggest myths ever but there is no denying that Romario is probably the worst type of striker for Vida to face - explosive, nimble, great on the ball. Just remember what Etoo did to him in CL final

 

[Physiocrat]

Think you are underrating Marcelo, he is probably alnogside Cafu or even just alone at the top a GOAT fullback when it comes to the offensive contribution. One of the main reasons why Madrid was so successful in last few years, guy dominated the whole left flank for them and had bigger impact offensive wise then most of the wingers from other top teams.

Marcelo provides some serious offensive threat but your unfortunate he's up against Neal and Beckham on that flank. He'll have some influence especially if Davids and Laudrup drift left and link-up but that leaves Romario on his own pretty much. Pulling off a quality 352 is difficult especially with picking the two more advanced CMs so they have enough physicality and creativity. Davids provides much more of the former but you lose too much of the latter. Thinking about it the ideal players for you system's more advanced CMs would be Charlton and Gullit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Insane technique and ability under pressure, great range of passing - there is absolutely no way we will lack anything offensive wise from that side.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Marcelo provides some serious offensive threat but your unfortunate he's up against Neal and Beckham on that flank. He'll have some influence especially if Davids and Laudrup drift left and link-up but that leaves Romario on his own pretty much. Pulling off a quality 352 is difficult especially with picking the two more advanced CMs so they have enough physicality and creativity. Davids provides much more of the former but you lose too much of the latter. Thinking about it the ideal players for you system's more advanced CMs would be Charlton and Gullit.

If they plan to get anything from this game Beckham should be nowhere near Marcelo.
Gullit would be a decent fit while Bobby not so much, i dont think we can upgrade this midfield anymore if im honest. We can get bigger names and better players but the chemistry and tactical fits here for both team and each other is second to none, at least in my opinion.