I mean I know that you're an Arsenal fan, but who are those Arsenal midfielders that were technically miles ahead of van Hanegem and Voronin?
P&G Draft - R1: Pat vs onenil
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
More selective stat cherry picking out of context. Riva was his NT primary goal scorer in that tactic. That wasn't Socrates' role in the tactic he played. So yeah the numbers prove you wrong. You might subjectively believe in your head Riva is better goalscorers but that's just your biased opinion. I obviously disagree so we can leave it at that. Plus I'd tip Socrates to have a bigger game than Riva as my front four has much greater synergy.
You talk about random players plonked down when your entire draft strategy was based around trying to find bargains. Very few of your players ever played in similar tactics and Riva-Heynckes in a 1-2 is very far from an ideal setting to maximize Zico's influence.Sweet feck, do you really think your using stats objectively, comparing Socrates in Brazil to Riva in Serie A?More selective stat cherry picking out of context. Riva was his NT primary goal scorer in that tactic. That wasn't Socrates' role in the tactic he played. So yeah the numbers prove you wrong. You might subjectively believe in your head Riva is better goalscorers but that's just your biased opinion. I obviously disagree so we can leave it at that. Plus I'd tip Socrates to have a bigger game than Riva as my front four has much greater synergy.
Still absolutely nothing on the opposition's defensive tactics I see.
More selective stat cherry picking out of context. Riva was his NT primary goal scorer in that tactic. That wasn't Socrates' role in the tactic he played. So yeah the numbers prove you wrong. You might subjectively believe in your head Riva is better goalscorers but that's just your biased opinion. I obviously disagree so we can leave it at that. Plus I'd tip Socrates to have a bigger game than Riva as my front four has much greater synergy.
Ouch.For your earlier point, I think with krol there he can control cruyff a bit better whereas your midfield will struggle against his and zico tips it over.
You started by making subjective claims as if they were objective. Then you ignored my entire point about how teams score goals and just trying to reduce things to silly comparisons that are irrelevant. You believe Riva is a better goalscorer than Socrates. I disagree with that completely. The stats can be twisted to either support either of our arguments or conclude there isn't much between them. I was trying to be fair and just compromise and say there isn't much between them.Sweet feck, do you really think your using stats objectively, comparing Socrates in Brazil to Riva in Serie A?
If you want to keep insisting that Riva is better goalscorer in your tactic than Socrates is in mine then we can agree to disagree and leave it with the voters.
I've talked about defense in every post including my OP. If you make a specific argument I disagree with I can counter it. For instance you claimed that Heynckes is going to be often attacking from your wide right, in that case Maldini is going to shut him down. You also implied Jansen and Maicon might attack that side as well. In which depending on scenario Vidal and Ribery would be marking/tracking them. Ultimately I see you as completely impotent on that side. Maldini with the help of Vidal and Ribery tracking back is not going to allow much if anything for you.
That compares very favorably to the other side where you don't have a wide forward (unless you are complaining Riva is playing wide as well). Marcelo, while a good attacker, is not the best defender and will have a very difficult time defending against Conti's speed, dribbling and passing. But then you said Marcelo would be marking Nelinho and van Hanegem would be on Conti?
So if Marcelo is Nelinho, you are expecting van Hanegem whose major weakness is being very slow and lacking agility to mark Conti whose main strengths are dribbling, guile and speed? I'll take that trade-off all game as it favors Cruyff-Socrates in the end by creating the space they can ruthlessly exploit.
Really those two points haven't been answered. Cruyff, the best player on the pitch can't really be stopped by your defenders. Meanwhile the fact Maldini can shut down Heynckes/LW gives my defense the advantage it needs.
Okay, how high is your defensive line? Why do you think Koeman and Gamarra are a complementary partnership?
Attacker will control which defender they go against though. Especially with Puyol lined up on Cruyff's side he will be the one that gets targeted. If Krol moves over to help out Puyol then Cruyff just passes to Socrates or Conti or Ribery though. That's why I think Cruyff has a much bigger advantage here than Zico - because against this super high line, he can target Puyol, beat him and then have acres of space advantage
For your earlier point, I think with krol there he can control cruyff a bit better whereas your midfield will struggle against his and zico tips it over.
Compress the space for Cruyff and Socrates to operate with a high line defence. Voronin is a top notch DM to pick him up when he drops deeper. If and when Cruyff beats Puyol then Krol as a first rate libero with excellent pace to cover for him.
Wont a high line leave space for koeman to exploit with his passing? Specially since both your fullbacks like pushing up.
Although maicon at his best had pace plenty to get back.
Just so you know, I am not a fan of this question and answer style as its clear you are going to try to lead this into your talking points while ignoring mine. So I am going to do this one question at a time.
Based on the fact you are dedicated to playing a super high line, then my side would usually be at a moderate line designed to exploit you from behind with long passes. You've come trying to aggressively win the possession game. I don't think your side is well constructed to maintain possession and I don't even think my side has to press like Klopp to regain possession. I think your side as constructed struggles massively with trying to win the ball from my front four supported by different players at various stages of the match because you have two very attacking full backs and your midfield is not really anything like heavy possession, super high line sides like Barcelona.
Is your side pressing like Klopp or Guardiola to try to maintain possession?
Yep. It's a calculated risk, but I want to limit space between the lines for the two great creators Socrate and Cruyff and control possession which the high line helps facilitate. I also picked a crop of defenders who excelled in that tactic.
Mauro Silva and Vidal limit the room Zico has to operate and mark him. Usually it will be Silva on him but sometimes Vidal or sometimes both since its only a 3 man attack. Koeman and Gamarra both have superb positional sense and timing so will intercept passes into the front two. Maldini is going to heavily limit Heynckes whom Pat says will be attacking wide on that side mostly. The front four as I mentioned using covering to prevent recycling of possession and threatening to steal passes.
I can see what you are trying to do here @Pat_Mustard. I think your side deserves far more credit than it has been getting and mightily amused at van Hanegem being painted as a weakness.
It's a good side and a setup where I can see Zico running riot. In a league season I'd argue it would very likely come out on top.
BUT it's a knockout match and that uber high line against a side sporting Cruyff, Conti and Ribery is downright suicidal. I appreciate the intellectual honesty, mind, the side wouldn't work any other way. Bad matchup.
It's a good side and a setup where I can see Zico running riot. In a league season I'd argue it would very likely come out on top.
BUT it's a knockout match and that uber high line against a side sporting Cruyff, Conti and Ribery is downright suicidal. I appreciate the intellectual honesty, mind, the side wouldn't work any other way. Bad matchup.
My counter to that is of course that Koeman and Nelinho have outstanding long range passing and Cruyff and Socrates don't need all that space to be deadly as they were outstanding in tight spaces and making space for themselves.
Of course I'm trying to lead things into my talking points given that you've repeatedly ignored most of my questions about your defence. Yes, we're pressing high up the pitch. Riva and Heynckes have the industry to pull that off, Jansen and van Hanegem were pioneers of the high press. Zico is the obvious weak point, but I'd hope he could close off passing lanes and maybe nick the odd interception.
Ah, I thought you'd go for a moderate line if you eventually answered, with a low line undermining your argument about matching/beating us in the possession stakes, and Gamarra being a dreadful partner for Koeman in a higher line setup.
Cheers for the post and kind words Anto. No problem at all with anyone backing Onenil to win, but I'm going to call it a night as some of the oddball attacks on the likes of van Hanegem and Jansen have melted my head
Wondered where you’d been lately. Drafted Simonsen and not a peep out of you
hope all is well with the fam mate!I have watched the video, thanks for uploading it againBastards
As I say, it's not a complete all touches video but should give an idea of why I picked him, and showcase his underrated attacking game a bit.
.I agree with him being a good fit for what you want him to do and I don't regard him as a weakness. However, I still think you would earn more if you had an additional attacker to put more pressure onto onenil's defense. It is not an "elite" elite defense, you have to put as much pressure as possible on that. Nobody would have said you have a weak midfield if it was just van Hanegem and Voronin, the drafters around here rate the both of them very highly.
I also just wanted to come by and say that touch is outrageous. Genuinely don't know if I ever saw a better one.
Shit goalkeeping though
One of my all-time favourites by the way. I never get tired of watching this goal
No problem mateI have watched the video, thanks for uploading it again
I agree with him being a good fit for what you want him to do and I don't regard him as a weakness. However, I still think you would earn more if you had an additional attacker to put more pressure onto onenil's defense. It is not an "elite" elite defense, you have to put as much pressure as possible on that. Nobody would have said you have a weak midfield if it was just van Hanegem and Voronin, the drafters around here rate the both of them very highly.
. Aye, I had some spare money as well and against this opponent an additional attacker freeing up Heeynckes to play full-time on the left wing and attack Nelinho/Koeman would probably have worked better. In any case, I knew I was going with a high-line defence quite early in the drafting and I also knew that it's about 90% certain that it will bomb with the voters so I wasn't expecting to make it out of the first round anyway, particularly when I came up against particularly fast wingers. That said, I wasn't expecting to discover that I'd completely overlooked the huge synergy between Koeman and Gamarra as a CB pairing, or that I should have picked Cazorla and Ramsey instead of Voronin and van Hanegem No problem mate
That wasn't what I said but okay.
And I stand by what I actually said : Ozil and Cazorla have a higher degree of technical ability than van Hanegem and Jansen. Never said they were overall better just that they had a higher level of technique. Cazorla easily had the highest level of technique, close control and ball retention of any Arsenal player I have seen in the last 10 years since Henry and Bergkamp. Massively underrated player who was severely unlucky with that last injury.
I'd agree on the Jansen part. Had him in one my first drafts here and based on what I watched found him to be quite Fletcher esque. More a hard worker than one with technical ability IMO. Played around the defense as well iirc
Anyway @Pat_Mustard good game, I had you in my list of best 3 drafted sides
Put that down to bitchiness and sour grapes on my part mate
. It was just a frustrating match for me as I felt the discussion was solely skewed towards my weaknesses, and that some of my players were getting harshly judged. I agree that Cazorla was brilliant technically btw.Cheers mate and good luck going forward!
Yeah, I think Haan was better on the ball than him but wasn't as physical.