P&G Draft - R1: Physiocrat vs Skizzo

[Enigma_87]

..vs..

...................................TEAM PHYSIOCRAT...............................................................................TEAM SKIZZO

TEAM PHYSIOCRAT TACTICS

Overview

A modern take on the 235 with attacking centre-half. 433/451 without the ball but in possession Overath and Gullit become inside forwards (both played left and right winger at earlier points of their career) and Stielike has liberty to move forward. Alaba and Lahm move into the left and right half position respectively, similar to how they played with Pep at Bayern.

Spoiler: In possession (slower build up)

Tactics

The team will employ a high press at goal kicks and when Skizzo’s defence have the ball to prevent the passing to the midfield, similar to the way Bayern pressed in their 4-0 drubbing of Barca in 2013. When the ball does reach the midfield we will drop deep limiting the space between the lines. The back four and midfield three will organise quite narrow to limit the space in the centre of the pitch to make it hard to play through the middle. Skoglund and Matthews though will stay pretty wide to be outballs on the counter.

When Skizzo loses the ball we will employ a generally direct approach with the front six generally moving forward. That said the team is perfectly able to slow it down with all the midfield very comfortable in possession and have excellent close control so as to be reasonable press resistant. Overath and Gullit will be able to play cunning through balls to RVN and the wingers.

Why I will win

· Skoglund and Matthews will roast Alves and Alba. Skizzo’s full backs would have a hard time even if they were actually defending a lot of the game let alone pushing high up and leaving space in behind.

· Van Nistelrooy will dominate Skizzo’s Pique and Marquez in the air and provide excellent link-up play for devastating counters.

· My defence is far better suited to contain Skizzo’s front three than his is to stop my front three. McGrath is by far the best defender on the pitch who combines intelligence and athleticism so will provide Messi with a tough challenge in particular with Stielike patrolling in front of the back four.

· All my midfield three are industrious and intelligent so will make it particularly difficult for Xavi, Iniesta and Guardiola. Further, they are all good passers of the ball, particularly Overath who was outstanding, so can easily switch the play outwide when in possession. They can also competent dribblers who can break the lines.

A few vids of some lesser known players -


Some insane passing here.


A marauding performance from Stielike



TEAM SKIZZO TACTICS
Formation - 433

I'm sure the line up sprung no surprises in terms of line up or tactics after my first three picks, but I couldn't help but play around with somewhat of a Barcelona homage, while building around the best club side in history. With unprecedented success, Barcelona of the 2010's was nigh on impossible to stop, sweeping teams aside and making most games almost seem like a formality.

Built around the core of Messi-Xavi-Iniesta, I've tried to put the pieces in place to get the best out of them, while sticking to past Barcelona players, all while on that pesky budget.

Victor Valdes takes up his spot in goal. Often underrated for his contribution to the success, he was a key part of how Barcelona opened teams up. Pep would ask his full backs to push high up wide, with the center backs pulling wide to the edges of the area. Having a goalkeeper who could play behind a high line and be so comfortable in possession, meant there was never a panic with any kind of high press of the opposition, and doing so often left them vulnerable when the ball was played to the next level of the pitch.

Migueli takes up the position of "leader" from the back, and plays alongside Rafa Marquez, who would be more of the ball player from deep. Flanked on either side by Jordi Alba, and Dani Alves, both are accustomed to the Barca style of attack first, and are both equipped with the pace to recover and press.

Pep Guardiola comes in to the DM role, and while he's more direct than Busquets would be, he's somewhat of the mastermind behind the Barca style. He has the ability to recycle possession, probing the play, and can play beyond the lines to the front three where necessary.

Xavi and Iniesta fall into their familiar roles, and alongside Pep would look to run the game, linking up with Messi et al.

Lastly, the crown jewel of the side, and the GOAT, of the peaches and GOAT themed team, is Leo Messi. Talked about as (one of) the greatest players of this generation, and to have played the game, he's surrounded with players to get the best out of his abilities, in a familiar role, and free to shine and run the game. Luis Enrique and Simonsen will probe around the back line.

On the other side, when the ball is lost, we're again put together a team who can replicate the other vital instruction of counter pressing, and aiming to win the ball back immediately. From front to back, we have the players who will press and graft to get possession back, and spring us back on the front foot.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Skizzo @Physiocrat game on!

All the best lads!

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 Thanks for setting it up

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm slightly surprised by Migueli starting. From what little I know of him be seems a decent defender but a far inferior passer than Pique and not someone you want in a hardcore tiki-taki side. Migueli could well make a mistake when pressed similar to Bartra against Bayern in 2013.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/04...roduce-an-astonishingly-dominant-performance/

Even if a mistake just leads to a corner Gullit, RVN, Campbell and McGrath are all 6ft plus and excellent in the air. If my research is correct Sizzo only has two outfield players at or above 6ft. I will be a major threat at set pieces with delivery from Overath.

Also, contrary to Skizzo's OP Valdes can be pressed into an error. Utd achieved this against Barca in 2009.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/05/25/champions-league-final-2009/

Even when I drop deep I will definitely score on the counter with the passing ability of my midfield and the torrd, torrid time Alves and Alba will have against Skoglund and Matthews. In particular Alba, who is up against possibly the best ever classic right-winger known for his exceptional dribbling and acceleration.

Finally, even when Skizzo gets chances, which he will, he is up against a fantastic shot stopper in Toldo. Valdes is inferior in this respect.

 

[worldinmotion66]

I think this would be a high scoring game as neither defence looks capable of containing the opposition attackers.

Despite my love for McGrath, I think Messi would be a thorn in the side of he and Campbell, and despite not rating Luis Enrique and Simonsen quite as highly, I think Skizzo's dominance on the ball and Messi's brilliance will edge it against Physiocrat's powerful side. It's a very difficult one to call, this. Well done guys.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think this would be a high scoring game as neither defence looks capable of containing the opposition attackers.

Despite my love for McGrath, I think Messi would be a thorn in the side of he and Campbell, and despite not rating Luis Enrique and Simonsen quite as highly, I think Skizzo's dominance on the ball and Messi's brilliance will edge it against Physiocrat's powerful side. It's a very difficult one to call, this. Well done guys.

You can't completely contain Messi on a regular basis possibly only a few really elite CBs screened by Rikjaard could do that. That said by minimising the space between the lines and having a compact defense, all of whom are quick can minimise his damage. Also crucial to Messi is service from the midfield, that's the main reason he's been relatively poor for Argentina. Here Xaviesta will have a tough time being constantly harried by my midifield three.

More importantly however, is that I can move the ball quickly on counters (if you have time watch the Overath video, some of the long passing there is insane) and Matthews will have a very fun afternoon with the space behind Alba. My defence is better at defending his threats than his is with mine.

 

[MJJ]

@physio wasnt gullit more of a number ten?

 

[Physiocrat]

@physio wasnt gullit more of a number ten?

He did play in the 10 position for Milan but he was hardly a classic 10. He was incredibly mobile and hardworking team playing forward who was also excellent in the air. He didn't need the play to always go through him and dropped deep. As I noted in the OP he also played as a right winger. I think he is best described as an goal scoring/attacking 8 rather than a 10. As such I think he's very well suited to his role in my side.

 

[2mufc0]

@physio wasnt gullit more of a number ten?

What physio said above. But he also played sweeper late on in his career. I think he played more in midfield at Sampdoria. But nothing wrong with him in this position, he was very versatile.

 

[Gio]

I wasn't completely sold that @Physiocrat got best value with a couple of players in the drafting, but tactically that is absolutely spot on. Lovely stuff.

@Skizzo Love the Marquez signing, such a gorgeous player to watch. Good use of Simonsen too. Can't quite get my head around Luis Enrique, more of a vertical line-breaking driving force than what you'd normally associate with that Barcelona. But he could be invaluable in that respect too as a more direct option. Bit like Spain dicking about for an hour in 2010 and then Villa getting fed up, cutting inside and curling one in the corner. Can't decide if he'd be great or a fish out of water here.

 

[Physiocrat]

I wasn't completely sold that @Physiocrat got best value with a couple of players in the drafting, but tactically that is absolutely spot on. Lovely stuff.

Thanks I did question myself a bit when I saw the really big names going to other sides especially when Enigma and Joga picked up Davids and Neeskens late but this is exactly how I wanted to setup from the beginning. I also wanted to make sure I had a quick defence too.

Can't quite get my head around Luis Enrique, more of a vertical line-breaking driving force than what you'd normally associate with that Barcelona. But he could be invaluable in that respect too as a more direct option. Bit like Spain dicking about for an hour in 2010 and then Villa getting fed up, cutting inside and curling one in the corner. Can't decide if he'd be great or a fish out of water here.

I think he's a good option for Skizzo. These tiki-taki setups do really need at least one more direct player otherwise you end up like Spain in 2012. That said whether he'd enjoy playing in a tiki-taki setup is another question but I think he fits in well.

 

[Skizzo]

I'm slightly surprised by Migueli starting. From what little I know of him be seems a decent defender but a far inferior passer than Pique and not someone you want in a hardcore tiki-taki side. Migueli could well make a mistake when pressed similar to Bartra against Bayern in 2013.

Marquez is taking on more of the Pique role here. Barcelona didn’t play with two “ball playing defenders” one was always more of a covering presence. Tarzan is that guy here, while Marquez is the more elegant one.

Also, contrary to Skizzo's OP Valdes can be pressed into an error. Utd achieved this against Barca in 2009

To make the odds of that occurring worth the effort, you’d need to constantly press Valdes. Who does that for you? The premise of Barcelona playing with Valdes is exactly that reason, to have someone on the opposition pressure high up the field and open space between the lines. It’s all a numbers game, and no one plays it better.

Besides, Campbell can be pressured into errors too, and this was far from the elite players or high press he’d face here.

Even when I drop deep I will definitely score on the counter with the passing ability of my midfield and the torrd, torrid time Alves and Alba will have against Skoglund and Matthews. In particular Alba, who is up against possibly the best ever classic right-winger known for his exceptional dribbling and acceleration.

Finally, even when Skizzo gets chances, which he will, he is up against a fantastic shot stopper in Toldo. Valdes is inferior in this respect.

You still need to not only try and win the ball back, but then distribute it before being pressed off the ball again. I don’t doubt you’d score here or there, just like Madrid used to grab a couple...but they’d still lost 6-2.

 

[Physiocrat]

@physio wasnt gullit more of a number ten?

Have a watch of this video. He's playing on the right here but you can see how he drops deep and roams centrally too. He is also incredibly quick, just wait for it.

Spoiler: Gullit vs Inter

 

[Skizzo]

I think this would be a high scoring game as neither defence looks capable of containing the opposition attackers.

Despite my love for McGrath, I think Messi would be a thorn in the side of he and Campbell, and despite not rating Luis Enrique and Simonsen quite as highly, I think Skizzo's dominance on the ball and Messi's brilliance will edge it against Physiocrat's powerful side. It's a very difficult one to call, this. Well done guys.

I agree with the high scoring game, and I think it would be in the vein of a lot of the Barça Madrid games at the height of Barca’s dominance. Madrid set up to counter with a outlet of C. Ronaldo is always good for a goal, but the possession and constant probing of Barcelona was always able to wear the opposition down, and with the brilliance of Messi-Xavi-Iniesta probing around, the goals would always eventually flow.

[QUOTE="Gio] Love the Marquez signing, such a gorgeous player to watch. Good use of Simonsen too. Can't quite get my head around Luis Enrique, more of a vertical line-breaking driving force than what you'd normally associate with that Barcelona. But he could be invaluable in that respect too as a more direct option. Bit like Spain dicking about for an hour in 2010 and then Villa getting fed up, cutting inside and curling one in the corner. Can't decide if he'd be great or a fish out of water here.[/QUOTE]

Was really happy with Márquez, glad to see him get some appreciation. Think he’ll really settle into this kind of set up and thrive as he did on the ball.

As for Luis Enrique, he’s not necessarily what you’d associate with the total style, but he was a ridiculously hard working player, has an eye for goal, fluid enough to press and probe around the front line, and as intended, slightly more direct as an option when necessary. Has quite a decent goal record from out wide left.

 

[Skizzo]

And good luck @Physiocrat

 

[Skizzo]

Just to address a couple of points from the OP

My defence is far better suited to contain Skizzo’s front three than his is to stop my front three. McGrath is by far the best defender on the pitch who combines intelligence and athleticism so will provide Messi with a tough challenge in particular with Stielike patrolling in front of the back four.

Mcgrath being the best defender isn’t a given that he’s automatically a better suited defender for the opposite attacker. He’s facing a prime Messi who would constantly be probing around, and he’d have to constantly be alert with Simonsen coming on the outside of Alaba tucking in. He’s a great defender no doubt, and I’ve picked him plenty of times, but you can still ask too much sometimes.

· All my midfield three are industrious and intelligent so will make it particularly difficult for Xavi, Iniesta and Guardiola.

Everything you just said here applies tenfold to my team. You’ve painted it as a positive that your midfield is press resistant. was any midfield more press resistant than Barça? Xavi-Iniesta-Messi etc thrived on teams pressing to open the space, it plays into their hands.

Not to mention, the high press of Barcelona was key to their success. They mastered that from back to front. You’re far more likely to be caught in possession and hit quickly than vice versa.

Further, they are good passers of the ball. Competent dribblers...

See above. “Good” would be an insult to almost any of my midfielders. Elite with the ball, constantly moving it and playing the numbers game. The wingers were instructed to stay high and wide to keep the space open. So if you want to push Lahm and Alaba up to that area to press the midfield, it opens space up in behind to exploit.

 

[Physiocrat]

Marquez is taking on more of the Pique role here. Barcelona didn’t play with two “ball playing defenders” one was always more of a covering presence. Tarzan is that guy here, while Marquez is the more elegant one.

Puyol was a much better passer than Migueli as was Mascherano. Whilst you don't want a Baresi Beckenbauer as a CB pair, the more aggressive stoppery CB needs to be at least pretty good at passing.

Besides, Campbell can be pressured into errors too, and this was far from the elite players or high press he’d face here.

Firstly, that's a low blow. He was towards the end of his career there playing at Portsmouth. Secondly, Migueli will have far more of the ball than Campbell so the probability of an error is higher with Migueli.

To make the odds of that occurring worth the effort, you’d need to constantly press Valdes. Who does that for you? The premise of Barcelona playing with Valdes is exactly that reason, to have someone on the opposition pressure high up the field and open space between the lines. It’s all a numbers game, and no one plays it better.

As stated in the OP I will opt for an initial press when your defenders and keeper have the ball before it ends up in midfield. So there will be chances for Valdes to make errors. Now I'm not saying he's Barthez but the way you described him in the OP made him sound invulnerable with the ball at his feet. He made an error in the Champions league final against Utd when being pressed.

You still need to not only try and win the ball back, but then distribute it before being pressed off the ball again. I don’t doubt you’d score here or there, just like Madrid used to grab a couple...but they’d still lost 6-2.

Come on, this is the Real side in that 6-2 game in 2009:

Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Cannavaro (rather aged at this point), Metzelder (), Heinze, Robben, Lassana Diarra (Portsmouth legend), Gago!, Marcelo, Higuain, Raul (past his best)

They also played 442 according Goal which seems likely given the line-up.

I tried to find a zonal marking Real Barca game in which Barca won but couldn't find one with the classic Xaviesta midfield but see this:

That defence is really quite poor but worse is the midfield. The only player who can pass there is Alonso. In other games Real played 4-2-3-1 with Ozil who is a complete passenger on the ball. Your midfield is basically the same quality but they are up against a far superior midfiled three than they ever had faced. All of whom are industrious, intelligent, good close dribblers and very good passers especially Overath. Sure I wouldn't always beat the press but I'd evade far more than any midfield Barca came up against in their prime. Further, when the ball does go wide you'd be better of fielding Jessica Alba to distract Matthews than Jordi trying trying to defend.

 

[Skizzo]

it always looked like Barcelona were out on the playground having fun, but the key to that was their constant drilling of certain exercises and movement.

FINAL PHASE COMBINATIONS

It was in this final attacking phase where Barcelona were at their most spectacular. Much of their success in this phase was down to the natural talent and instinct of some of the most creative players the world has ever seen. Despite this, they did use a number of different coachable methods to penetrate the defensive line of the opposition.

The below video shows the key strategies Barcelona use to penetrate a retreated defence, with explanation of these beneath.


Dribble + Release: Most commonly used by Messi and Iniesta who would dribble in front of the opposition penalty area, attracting opposition defenders, and then release a pass to a player in the space which is created.

Small combination triangles: This is where the instinctive first touches and flicks that are woven into the fabric of a Barcelona player through the famous 7v2 Rondos they take part in every day come to fruition on the field of play. Having these structures in the final phase allow players to make one-touch passes and play at speed to penetrate the opposition.

Third man runs: Barcelona use third-man runs to breach the opposition’s defensive line. The benefit of this run starting deep is that the runner is already moving at pace by the time the ball is played so can stay onside and still receive the ball in space behind even the deepest of defensive lines.

Final ball from the half space: Barcelona try to create room for Xavi and Iniesta in the halfspaces to play that final ball over the top of the defence. Playing the ball from the half space gives the optimal angle of pass for the runner (Fabregas in the second clip) to receive. A ball from the flank (a cross) travels further distance and is at a flatter angle so is easier for the defence to cut out. While a pass from the centre would have to come over Fabregas’ shoulder so would be harder for him to control. Plus, when in the central column of the field, the opposition defence are standing with a 180-degree view of the whole field whereas when a ball is played half space to half space (see second clip), Fabregas has a blindside advantage.

Wall passes: The most classic combination in football, most effective when one of the players is moving at speed as the constant change of position of the ball and the players is difficult to defend against.

 

[Enigma_87]

I tried to find a zonal marking Real Barca game in which Barca won but couldn't find one with the classic Xaviesta midfield but see this:

Don't bother, doubt anyone reads into it..

 

[Indnyc]

Further, when the ball does go wide you'd be better of fielding Jessica Alba to distract Matthews than Jordi trying trying to defend.

 

[Physiocrat]

Don't bother, doubt anyone reads into it..

I don't expect everyone to read it, it's just Zonal Marking is a good place to pick up line-ups in formation and the quality of the Real midfields the Xaviesta Barca came up against were vastly inferior to mine.

 

[Skizzo]

Puyol was a much better passer than Migueli as was Mascherano. Whilst you don't want a Baresi Beckenbauer as a CB pair, the more aggressive stoppery CB needs to be at least pretty good at passing.

He’s more than capable on the ball. Painting him as some mug who can’t pass is a little silly. Barcelona never relied on the center backs to have to make longer passes, its the key aspect of always having short options, and he’s more than “pretty good” enough to pass 10 yards.

Firstly, that's a low blow. He was towards the end of his career there playing at Portsmouth. Secondly, Migueli will have far more of the ball than Campbell so the probability of an error is higher with Migueli.

By the same logic, Messi will have far more of the ball and the probability of outscoring you is higher. Again, if you’re pressing high up on the keeper and center backs, it opens the space between the lines to move through and exploit.

As stated in the OP I will opt for an initial press when your defenders and keeper have the ball before it ends up in midfield. So there will be chances for Valdes to make errors. Now I'm not saying he's Barthez but the way you described him in the OP made him sound invulnerable with the ball at his feet. He made an error in the Champions league final against Utd when being pressed.

You say you don’t make him sound like Barthez, but you seem to imply these chances are super high. Everyone makes mistakes, see Campbell. And that has nothing to do with his age, it was a complete reading of the game error.

Your midfield is basically the same quality but they are up against a far superior midfiled three than they ever had faced. All of whom are industrious, intelligent, good close dribblers and very good passers especially Overath. Sure I wouldn't always beat the press but I'd evade far more than any midfield Barca came up against in their prime. Further, when the ball does go wide you'd be better of fielding Jessica Alba to distract Matthews than Jordi trying trying to defend.

Complains about low blows, then talks about playing Jessica Alba instead
He’s no Maldini, but defenders like Alba and Alves are nightmares to play against due to their athleticism and the system they play in.

 

[idmanager]

Not a fan of Guardiola in that setup.

He was way more close to Alonso as a player rather than Busquets. I don't think he had either the defensive prowess (not expecting pure DM Makelele prowess) or the positioning that was essential to Busquets being a very crucial part of that midfield.

Its an upgrade to Busquets in terms of vision and passing but that is something that is not required.

Even with Alonso, who I consider more defensively astute than Guardiola, Del Bosque always played Busquets too in the Spain setup.

Happy to be proven wrong with a short compilation of his defensive prowess.

 

[Skizzo]

So what’s the game plan to stopping us scoring besides trying to squeeze the space?

XavIesta + Messi is the anti-press trio, and having Lahm and Alaba press centrally to reduce space is suicide with Simonsen and Luis Enrique being instructed to stay wide to keep that back line under pressure.

For talks of mismatches, Alaba is a good player, but he’d have no easy task of containing Simonsen, especially if Alaba is already trying to recover from a midfield press.

Not to mention all the talk of dribbling and pace and forgetting Messi is lining up opposite.

 

[Physiocrat]

Mcgrath being the best defender isn’t a given that he’s automatically a better suited defender for the opposite attacker. He’s facing a prime Messi who would constantly be probing around, and he’d have to constantly be alert with Simonsen coming on the outside of Alaba tucking in. He’s a great defender no doubt, and I’ve picked him plenty of times, but you can still ask too much sometimes.

Of course, prime Messi is excellent and I haven't said he'll be entirely shut out. All I've stated is that McGrath has the brain and body to cause him problems especially with a deep defence patrolled by Stielike. Simonsen can go on the outside but with a deep defence there's not that much he can create. Marquez and Migueli will have a far worse time on the counter against RVN with the service he will receive due to the space in behind the full-backs.

Everything you just said here applies tenfold to my team. You’ve painted it as a positive that your midfield is press resistant. was any midfield more press resistant than Barça? Xavi-Iniesta-Messi etc thrived on teams pressing to open the space, it plays into their hands.
Not to mention, the high press of Barcelona was key to their success. They mastered that from back to front. You’re far more likely to be caught in possession and hit quickly than vice versa.

All my point about press resistance was that I could hold the ball if the situation.

The wingers were instructed to stay high and wide to keep the space open. So if you want to push Lahm and Alaba up to that area to press the midfield, it opens space up in behind to exploit.

The wingers out of possession will stay wide out of possession but not necessarily that high. They aren't just going to stand on half-way line. It's true in possession if I manage a slower build up there will be space outwide to exploit but you are far less suited to exploit it with Simonsen and Enrique than Skogund and Matthews. Further, Alaba and Lahm will be far less advanced than Alba and Alves. Also, all my back four are very quick.

 

[Skizzo]

Not a fan of Guardiola in that setup.

He was way more close to Alonso as a player rather than Busquets. I don't think he had either the defensive prowess (not expecting pure DM Makelele prowess) or the positioning that was essential to Busquets being a very crucial part of that midfield.

Its an upgrade to Busquets in terms of vision and passing but that is something that is not required.

Even with Alonso, who I consider more defensively astute than Guardiola, Del Bosque always played Busquets too in the Spain setup.

Happy to be proven wrong with a short compilation of his defensive prowess.

It’s harder findin a specific video due to his style being more elegant on the ball than a typical DM as you say.

There’s bits and pieces through here, including the first match highlights


Although it does focus more on him going forward. I’ll see if I can find a more condensed version showing just what you’re after.

As for his positional play, he played in a Barcelona squad that focused almost entirely on roles interchanging and moving around the field. He often dropped into the back 3 to receive the ball and facilitate the ball moving forward, so his positioning shouldn’t be an issue in any sense.

 

[Skizzo]

Of course, prime Messi is excellent and I haven't said he'll be entirely shut out. All I've stated is that McGrath has the brain and body to cause him problems especially with a deep defence patrolled by Stielike. Simonsen can go on the outside but with a deep defence there's not that much he can create. Marquez and Migueli will have a far worse time on the counter against RVN with the service he will receive due to the space in behind the full-backs.

You’re employing a high press and then trying to drop into a deep line. There’s going to be times we play quick interchanges and find avenues, or Messi will turn and run at that space in devastating fashion before you settle. He also likes to “roast” defenders, as you say, and can do it better than any of them.

The wingers out of possession will stay wide out of possession but not necessarily that high. They aren't just going to stand on half-way line. It's true in possession if I manage a slower build up there will be space outwide to exploit but you are far less suited to exploit it with Simonsen and Enrique than Skogund and Matthews. Further, Alaba and Lahm will be far less advanced than Alba and Alves. Also, all my back four are very quick.

The wingers being high and wide wasn’t in relation to you. Barcelona wingers were advised to keep high and wide to keep the defenders pushed back. So my point of you using Lahm and Alaba to push up and press the midfield would leave gaps at the back, which is the last thing you’d want with the players I have to exploit it.

 

[Physiocrat]

He’s more than capable on the ball. Painting him as some mug who can’t pass is a little silly. Barcelona never relied on the center backs to have to make longer passes, its the key aspect of always having short options, and he’s more than “pretty good” enough to pass 10 yards.

I'm open to change my mind on Migueli. Have you anything to watch or read on him? That said, most CBs in the top leagues can pass 10 yards. It doesn't make them fit the tiki-taki system.

By the same logic, Messi will have far more of the ball and the probability of outscoring you is higher. Again, if you’re pressing high up on the keeper and center backs, it opens the space between the lines to move through and exploit.

You would if I had the same defensive setup as you but I don't.

You say you don’t make him sound like Barthez, but you seem to imply these chances are super high. Everyone makes mistakes, see Campbell. And that has nothing to do with his age, it was a complete reading of the game error.

Your concentration can go when you're older. It's hard to say there whether it was a misread or a misread as a result of loss of concentration.

Complains about low blows, then talks about playing Jessica Alba instead

Jokes aren't low blows.

 

[worldinmotion66]

You can't completely contain Messi on a regular basis possibly only a few really elite CBs screened by Rikjaard could do that. That said by minimising the space between the lines and having a compact defense, all of whom are quick can minimise his damage. Also crucial to Messi is service from the midfield, that's the main reason he's been relatively poor for Argentina. Here Xaviesta will have a tough time being constantly harried by my midifield three.

More importantly however, is that I can move the ball quickly on counters (if you have time watch the Overath video, some of the long passing there is insane) and Matthews will have a very fun afternoon with the space behind Alba. My defence is better at defending his threats than his is with mine.

The two teams are very well built for the specific way in which they intend to play. I just feel that the McGrath/Campbell partnership will struggle with Messi. As good as they both were at defending, blocking, scrapping and recovery pace, I personally think that the low centre of gravity and quick feet would have enabled Messi to outmanoeuvre them.

You would cause a lot of damage on counters with Matthews and Skoglund, no doubt about it. The problem is getting the ball and getting it to Overath. I like your team a lot (I actually prefer a lot of the players that you have), it's just difficult to overlook a midfield +Messi that we know works perfectly.

 

[Skizzo]

To make the point (in case it really needs making) is that Messi can blow the game open when he hits you counter when we get around your high press, or if you try and settle in. He’s done it for years and made a mockery of some defenders/defenses


You can see both types here. A few teams have 6/7 players behind the ball, and a few were hit before being able to set up.

By your own admission, you can’t stop him directly, and with us having the majority of the ball, I’d back us to outscore you in a game where both teams will find the back of the net.

 

[Physiocrat]

So what’s the game plan to stopping us scoring besides trying to squeeze the space?

My tactics are broadly similar to Bayern's who smashed tiki-taki Barca 4-0. It's hardly an innovative strategy but a tight zonal structure is a nightmare to breakdown

XavIesta + Messi is the anti-press trio, and having Lahm and Alaba press centrally to reduce space is suicide with Simonsen and Luis Enrique being instructed to stay wide to keep that back line under pressure.

For talks of mismatches, Alaba is a good player, but he’d have no easy task of containing Simonsen, especially if Alaba is already trying to recover from a midfield press.

They aren't going to pump balls into the box so the only option is to cut inside where there is very little space with the defence deep. Simonsen will have more of a chance with his dribbling than Enrique but it will still be difficult to create much.

I've already addressed Messi.

 

[idmanager]

As for his positional play, he played in a Barcelona squad that focused almost entirely on roles interchanging and moving around the field. He often dropped into the back 3 to receive the ball and facilitate the ball moving forward, so his positioning shouldn’t be an issue in any sense.

Yea, the wrong word to use there since I meant something else.
I meant Busquets was the fulcrum around whom the rest of that Barca squad passed. The fall back guy many a times.
Guardiola liked to have way more positional freedom and the license to roam around himself which I don't think could be afforded in tiki taka for Busquets.

Maybe folks who have watched much more of the dream team that me can share their views on him here. I might be wrong, will checkout some dream team full match and maybe will get back on this tomorrow.

 

[Physiocrat]

You’re employing a high press and then trying to drop into a deep line. There’s going to be times we play quick interchanges and find avenues, or Messi will turn and run at that space in devastating fashion before you settle. He also likes to “roast” defenders, as you say, and can do it better than any of them.

That's possible but you'd have to transition the entire most of the length of the pitch rather quickly, not what you'd normally expect from your midfield.

The wingers being high and wide wasn’t in relation to you. Barcelona wingers were advised to keep high and wide to keep the defenders pushed back. So my point of you using Lahm and Alaba to push up and press the midfield would leave gaps at the back, which is the last thing you’d want with the players I have to exploit it.

Given that I'll be playing mostly direct the number of times you could execute this is minimal however I will have many more times to get in behind Alba and Alves.

I think this is key here, your Barca side is on a similar level to the peak Barca side however you are facing a far better midfield and defence than they ever faced in addition to an attack which is kryptonite to your style of play.

 

[Skizzo]

Messi is usually talked about around the Cafe as one of, if not the, GOAT, but draft games often gets overlooked for whatever reason.

He’s out here in his best position, with the set up around him that he thrived in.

Lest we forget this was the man who scored 91 goals in a calendar year.

His 91 in 2012 might never, ever be beaten because it is frankly ridiculous, and he also managed over 50 in 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017.

The man scores goals, and I don’t see a direct or actual way he gets stopped here from doing it again.

Not to mention that nearly a quarter of his career goals come in the last 15 minutes of games. The opposition legs start to tire, they start to push up just that little more to try and chase the game, and he punishes them again.

 

[Skizzo]

My tactics are broadly similar to Bayern's who smashed tiki-taki Barca 4-0. It's hardly an innovative strategy but a tight zonal structure is a nightmare to breakdown

Where Messi passed a late fitness test and wasn’t his usual self, as opposed to peak Messi here.

They aren't going to pump balls into the box so the only option is to cut inside where there is very little space with the defence deep. Simonsen will have more of a chance with his dribbling than Enrique but it will still be difficult to create much.

I've already addressed Messi

Plenty of Barça goals come from playing it into the box. Not pumped in, but low driven balls across to runners. Late runs. Third man runs. Masters of finding space where there appears to be none.

And Messi will be Messi.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I wasn't completely sold that @Physiocrat got best value with a couple of players in the drafting, but tactically that is absolutely spot on. Lovely stuff.

I'm not sure about this. Having classic top tier wingers and then get your fullback to move into the midfield rather than overlapping?

 

[Physiocrat]

The two teams are very well built for the specific way in which they intend to play. I just feel that the McGrath/Campbell partnership will struggle with Messi. As good as they both were at defending, blocking, scrapping and recovery pace, I personally think that the low centre of gravity and quick feet would have enabled Messi to outmanoeuvre them.

That's fair comment. All I'd say with a deep defensive line Toldo won't have far to run out to close down Messi. As I said, I don't think I'll keep a clean sheet, I think I can minimise the damage and score more.

You would cause a lot of damage on counters with Matthews and Skoglund, no doubt about it. The problem is getting the ball and getting it to Overath. I like your team a lot (I actually prefer a lot of the players that you have), it's just difficult to overlook a midfield +Messi that we know works perfectly.

Ideally I'd want the ball to drop to Overath, Gullit was a very good passer and McGrath and Stielike were hardly bad. Further, given the space behind Alba and Alves you don't need to be Overath to put it in a decent position for Skoglund and Matthews.

I understand weighting highly a midfield and Messi we know works but to repeat myself, this is a far better midfield and defence than they ever faced.

 

[Physiocrat]

Where Messi passed a late fitness test and wasn’t his usual self, as opposed to peak Messi here.

Fair enough, but they clearly broadly work and any team that beat that Barca side played a similar way.

Plenty of Barça goals come from playing it into the box. Not pumped in, but low driven balls across to runners. Late runs. Third man runs. Masters of finding space where there appears to be none.

And Messi will be Messi.

They could well find some pockets and you're right Barca were great at finding small spaces but again this is the best defence and midfield they have ever faced who are playing deep and narrow. There will be very little space for them to exploit.

 

[worldinmotion66]

That's fair comment. All I'd say with a deep defensive line Toldo won't have far to run out to close down Messi. As I said, I don't think I'll keep a clean sheet, I think I can minimise the damage and score more.



Ideally I'd want the ball to drop to Overath, Gullit was a very good passer and McGrath and Stielike were hardly bad. Further, given the space behind Alba and Alves you don't need to be Overath to put it in a decent position for Skoglund and Matthews.

I understand weighting highly a midfield and Messi we know works but to repeat myself, this is a far better midfield and defence than they ever faced.

It's a great contest mate, could easily go either way. Good luck.

 

[Enigma_87]

Simonsen always tends to be a little unappreciated in these drafts. Simonsen/Dani Alves is a fantastic flank on it's own. It's unlikely that Skoglund will offer much help in the defensive phase and both could overwhelm Alaba here. Especially since Alaba has instructions to tuck inside.

Messi although having it tough against McGrath would have some joy between the lines and when Alaba is pulled out wide.

Think Physio should've played Gullit at #10 and closer to goal. With those wingers and crossing the ball in the box having both Nistelrooy and Gullit would be immense. But having him in deeper position IMO would capitalize on that advantage.

Bit on the fence here and giving the edge to @Skizzo due to that right flank.