P&G Draft - SF: Harms vs Tuppet

With players at Career peak, who will win this match?


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Enigma_87

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............................................TEAM HARMS..................................................................TEAM TUPPET

TEAM HARMS TACTICS


The team is built around Pelé — the greatest player of all-time. He was slightly unlucky on the international stage, if you can say that about a man who won 3 World Cups, as he missed 2 tournaments at his physical peak — we can only imagine how devastating he might have been had he not been injured in 1962 and kicked out of 1966. But when you look at his club side — Santos, you can see that they've used a similar (mirrored) loop sided formation that transformed from 4-2-4 (4-4-2) to 4-3-3, due to the roles of Zagallo and Dorval — a formation, that brought out the best in Pelé, a free-roaming second striker.

The additions of 2 Ballon d'Or winners, Figo and Suárez, helps the transition of my team from a "British" 4-4-2 to a more fluid and possession-friendly tactics, which should maximise Pelé's influence on this game.




I want to highlight that Pelé was not only a goalscorer, but also a creator and probably the most complete attacking player in football's history — here's a good post by Raees on the matter. In Denis Law — a ridiculously all-rounded and unselfish, yet prolific striker, and Rob Rensenbrink, a brilliant entertainer and goalscorer who shined both in a supporting role for Cruyff's Netherlands and as a main man for Anderlecht and 1978 Dutch side, he has the perfect supporting unit, that combines goals and creativity needed to highlight all facets of Pelé's game.



Thoughts on the game

Nemanja Vidić gets a mixed reception on here but it's hard to find a player better suited to defend against Kocsis (his partnership with Czibor is one of Tuppet's strongest selling points) in the air — I'd go out on a limb and say that in that particular component Vidić is one of the all-time greats.

Der Kaiser is a magnificent player but even his presence doesn't make Tuppet's defence good enough to handle my front 4. For example, this is Rob Rensenbrink — my arguably weakest (that doesn't sound right, does it) attacker, destroying Beckenbauer's Bayern in the Super Cup — 2 goals and 2 assists in a 4:1 win:

Pelé proved time and again that it doesn't matter who plays against him, he will always have an upper hand, even if it's Franz Beckenbauer himself (who, unsurprisingly, names Pelé as the GOAT and the most complete player he ever saw).

TEAM TUPPET TACTICS

I am playing a 4-1-4-1 formation. Our defensive line up is slightly higher and my team would try to control the game but still play fast and purposeful football and not go crazy for possession.


I slightly varied from 4-2-3-1 to add another more technically gifted attacking player in Hassler to try and take control of the midfield. Desailly's unmatched defensive game and Hassler's grafting allows me to combine them as midfield partners to Di stefano. Hassler was a real livewire with the ball and incessant & tenacious runner off it. 2 times German player of the year, he is one of the best midfielder of 90s. He is also perfect for a sidekick playmaker role who can create when needed but could also defend. He played this role to perfection in Germany's world cup win in 90. If harms persist with 4-4-2 I feel my trio should be able to take control of the midfield. While we are attacking containing both Hassler & Di Stefano is going to be tough ask from Lerby & Suarez.

Desailly is the DM shielding the defense and marking Pele in our Half. As one of the GOAT DM he is the perfect player for the job and matches well with Pele with his pace, physicality and tactical positioning. He would also have help form Beckenbauer and together they provide as good a counter you can think of to contain Pele.

Rest of the tactic is similar to previous rounds. Kocsis - Czibor still remain my most potent weapon outside Di Stefano's magnificance. Bene completes the Hungarion trio and provides a direct and potent goalscoring threat on the right side. Di Stefano has been given the full freedom to run the game. He is both my midfield general and biggest goal threat after Kocsis. He is going to be my most attacking midfielder and Hassler is supposed to more defensive heavy lifting but Di stefano would do his defensive duties as he has always done.

In defense Bossis faces another tough challenge in Figo and would stay more disciplined and defensive. Mcneill & Beckenbauer brings stopper-sweeper combination and is a high caliber defensive unit, excellent both in ground & air. Beckenbauer is the leader of defense and has been given freedom to run from his libero position. He would join the midfield when we are attacking overloading it further and his excellent passing and technique would help to bring ball out of defense. Benarrivo on right side is another defender who was excellent with ball and was solid defensively while still being capable of supporting the attack.
 
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MJJ

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hm, can you open imgur mate? Can see both fine.

Anyone else experiencing the issue?
Ah no I can't, must be due to the trains WiFi blocking it.

Not really a fan of both sides here, the removal of Beckham and effenberg makes varms midfield weak from a defensive pov while adding attacking fire power which wasn't really needed.

On the other hand, I am not really a fan of Tuppet's defense and his main attacking route will be well defended by vidic here.
 

Enigma_87

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@harms updated the OP with your new formation pic.

Let me know if you guys need anything else, as I'll be up my neck with work most likely later on
 

harms

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A good post on Suárez by Joga — and one of the points I wanted to make is that he actually has a relatively good record against Di Stefano, that is, considering that Di Stefano is undoubtedly a better player who mostly played for a better team. In his time at Barcelona Suárez managed to win 2 La Ligas, 2 Cops Del Rays and 2 UEFA Cups, and he was instrumental in the first elimination of Real Madrid from the European Cup. At Inter he managed a great performance in a win against Di Stefano's Madrid in the 1964 European Cup final, playing a more defensive role (akin to his role in my team) — although it was, of course, a rather old Di Stefano.

Again, just to reiterate — I'm not saying that Suárez will have an upper hand or that he is a better player than the Argentinian, he is not. But he managed to held his own playing against him multiple times, winning lots of titles on the way.

Here is Luis Suárez vs Di Stefano's Madrid in the 1964 European Cup final (it's an incomplete compilation due to the quality of footage)

If you want to see more of Suárez — here are some of his trademark performances in his mature midfield general role,

1964 European Cup semi-final against Borussia Dortmund

1964 Euros final against USSR





Quite possibly the greatest Spaniard ever (sorry Xavi :p), El Arquitecto was simply a playmaking maestro who had exquisite technique; possessed extraordinary footwork; exhibited an acute sense of tactical intelligence; was unrivalled when it came to his inch-perfect passing; thrived with creativity; and scored impressive goals.

He truly was in a class of his own. To date the only Spaniard to have won the prestigious Ballon d'Or, his individual pedigree was undeniable. From 1958 to 1965, he featured in every single Ballon d'Or shortlist, winning it on 1960, the silver ball on 1961, 1964, the bronze ball on 1965 and finishing 4th on 1959.

He is in the elite tier of footballers to have four top 3 Ballon d'Or finishes alongside Kopa, Cruyff, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer (5), Platini, Messi and C.Ronaldo.

Notice how the players in this esteemed list are either a goalscoring forward or a playmaking forward (except the freakish Kaiser) and not a deep playmaker in the vein of Suárez where he had three of his top 3 finishes.

Barcelona

Suarez began his ascension to the top at Barcelona, where he was the star (alongside Kubala) of a mouthwatering and a free flowing forward line featuring Kubala, Kocsis, Czibor and Evaristo - one of Barca's finest assembly of forwards ever. The mercurial Suárez led his side toe to toe with THAT Di Stefano's Real side featuring Puskas, Santamaria, Kopa, Rial and Gento.

Scoring a remarkable 112 goals in 216 games and creating many more as a goalscoring playmaker, he led Barca to 2 La Ligas, 2 Cops Del Rays and 2 UEFA Cups with that much vaunted Real side finishing second best at times.

In his final season for Barca, he had one of the most momentous games of his glittering career.

Having beaten the Belgian side Lierse by five goals in the first round, Barcelona were drawn once again with Real Madrid in the second round of the European Cup. With Herrera being dismissed as manager following Barca’s defeat in the previous season’s semi-finals against Real, much was at stake here.

Barcelona and Suárez faced an impossible task with Real having never lost a tie in the European Cup. Up until November 9th 1960, Real Madrid had played 15 home ties in the European Cup and had won them all with a combined aggregate score of 66-8, but on that day their run came to an end. Twice Real took the lead but twice their defence was unable to prevent an equaliser.

It was Luis Suárez who tore them a new one, scoring both goals for Barcelona, the first from a free-kick and the second a hotly disputed penalty just three minutes from the end. Barcelona, marshalled by the architect, won the tie back home and by doing so had done the unthinkable, nay the implausible. They had defeated Real feckin Madrid and that match more or less heralded the demise of Real's stronghold on Europe.

Any team that had finally ended Real’s European run would have celebrated wildly, but the fact that it was Barcelona, their deadliest rivals, meant that the celebrations were especially joyous with fireworks punctuating the Catalan night, with Suárez being hailed as a Catalan treasure for the ages.

Despite Suárez leading them to the final, Barca succumbed to Eusebio's Benfica due to those 2 accursed Hungarians :p.

Inter Milan

Falling prey to financial disarray, Barca had no option but to sell their star player to FC Internazionale of Italy for 25 million pesetas or €204,000, making Suárez the world’s most expensive footballer.

In Inter El Arquitecto displayed the true mark of a genius. He completely revamped his game from a playmaking 1 in 2 games goalscoring forward to a deep lying metronome. It only served to highlight his tactical nous and intelligence that he played both these roles to absolute perfection.

Suárez - "The Italian league had a reputation for being more defensive than it really was. Even so, teams' first priority was not to concede any goals and I came from a place with a different mindset," said the 74-year-old, on the contrast between Spanish and Italian football.

"At Barcelona I played as a goalscoring midfielder but (at Inter) I had to change for the good of the team and to win titles. At the end of the day, I think I was so successful because I made so many sacrifices for a sport I loved."

Suárez became the orchestrator and the lynch pin of the legendary La Grande Inter side featuring Facchetti, Picchi, Burgnich and Mazzola amongst others.

Although his goalscoring rate dropped drastically, Suárez delighted with his skills and tactical sense; his ability to direct play and launch toxic counterattacks, but still with the freedom of being his usual creative self. Helenio had once said of his playmaker, “Inter is great but Suárez is the prophet.” It was Suárez ’s job to create, which is how his new nickname ‘El Arquitecto’ (The Architect) came about. It was even said that he knew exactly where to place the ball even before receiving it!

Suárez still grappled onto the one thing which eluded him – the European Cup (UEFA Champions League). AC Milan had won it in ’63, and Inter was desperate to follow suit.

Just one year later the Nerazzurri got a chance by reaching the final for the first time in their history. And who would they face in the final? Well, none other than Los Blancos of course, who were still hunting their 6th title.

Memories came flooding back for Suárez as he once again faced off against the likes of Puskás, Gento and Di Stéfano. This time though, Inter came out victorious, thrashing Real Madrid to a 3-1 defeat with Suárez being the man of the match and the bane of Real yet again.

‘El Arquitecto’ also had the last laugh as he led his Inter to their second successive European Cup in ’65. Their opponents, Benfica, happened to be a team who Suárez had previously met, with Barça having lost the final. But this time fate would be on Suárez’s side – the winning side. In the Nerazzurri’s own San Siro stadium, Inter triumphed over the two-time former champions with a narrow 1-0 win, and for Suárez it was nothing short of a sweet, sweet victory.

With Inter Suárez won 3 Series A, 2 European Cups and 2 Intercontinental Cups to add to his already impressive trophy haul.

Importance to catenaccio tactics and Inter

Suarez's importance to Inter and their meticulous tactical plan can be accurately portrayed via their loss against Celtic in the 1967 European Cup final.

The European campaign had been going to plan with Inter dispatching holders Real with Suárez being imperious once again.

Just as in the final three years earlier, Real Madrid were defeated by Inter’s catenaccio tactics. They could find no way past the door bolt in Milan and were defeated by a single goal from Cappellini who had only just returned to Inter following a spell on loan to Genoa.

The second leg in the Bernabeu saw Real face the wrath of their 120,000 fans as they were comfortably despatched by the Italians. Their task was made almost impossible on 23 minutes when Real’s goalkeeper failed to hold on to a shot from Domenghini and Cappellini was the first to react and score his second goal of the tie.

Just before the hour, Suarez, who had brilliantly marshalled Inter’s solid defence, beat three defenders on a solo run before scoring the goal that put the tie beyond doubt.

This was all too much for the home supporters to take. One supporter hurled a live chicken at Gento after he missed an easy chance, while another fan ran onto the pitch brandishing a scarlet bullfighters cape. He proceeded to make several imaginary passes to show the Real players their way to goal. At the final whistle the Real players, several of them in tears, left the pitch to the sound of booing.

Real’s hopes of winning a seventh European title were finished, but Internazionale were safely into the semi-finals with their biggest threat knocked out.

Spanish fans and their poultry :lol::lol::lol:

Unfortunately Suárez was injured in the semi final and his absence in the final heavily crippled Inter despite the likes of Facchetti, Corso, Burgnich, Mazzola and Picchi still featuring.

Inter typically took the early 1-0 lead and sat back. They actually defended quite well and restricted Celtic to long shots. However, they lacked the crucial piece which completed the jigsaw puzzle and tied it all together, Luis Suárez.

Celtic’s two attacking wingers ran at the Inter defence, their two forwards caused havoc in the middle, their two central midfielders pressed forward, while Inter’s policy of leaving just one man up front left Celtic’s full backs free to join in with the attacks.

With no Suarez to set Inter away on their counter attacks, the Italians just fell back into their penalty area as wave upon wave of Celtic attacks rained in on them.

Without no outball and a lack of a counter threat, Inter inevitably succumbed to the relentless pressure. The gulf between the midfield was apparent for all to see with Auld and Murdoch running havoc unopposed in midfield.

Don't take my word for it, just watch the 3 CL finals that Inter played in the 60s and you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. Rarely could a playmaking genius have been so crucial to an extremely defensive tactic. Inter's quick and direct counter attacks, transition which ideally relied on no more than 3 direct passes, were almost solely dependent on Suárez.
 

harms

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I was under the impression that Suarez was more of an AM. What was he like as a CM?
Just made a post about him — to see him in the role that he's used here, take a look at the second and third compilations (SF vs Dortmund and Euro's final against USSR). He was a goalscoring attacking midfielder at Barcelona and became an amazing deep-lying orchestrator for Herrera's Inter, showcasing his workrate and positional intelligence as well as his passing and dribbling.
 

2mufc0

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I was under the impression that Suarez was more of an AM. What was he like as a CM?
From my limited reading and watching clips of him attacking was his strength but he could also put in the defensive work.
 

idmanager

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Dont like the Suarez Lerby midfield here. While Suarez is an upgrade in attacking sense over Effenberg, I don't think he was a patch on him when it comes to work rate and contributing in the defensive 3rd. Not in a GOAT team context anyways.

The Inter Suarez did play from the deep orchestrating play but there was always a designated pure DM behind him in Bedin to make it work. I don't think Lerby is anywhere near capable of something like that.
Also, when the opposition number 10 is Di Stefano (both in the attacking and defensive sense), it is not a inspiring setup for me.

Coming to Tuppet's team, its obvious what he has tried to do. Get in a GOAT DM-CB combo to take care of Maradona/Pele/Cruyff no matter who he faces and then build on from there leaving the attack to Di Stefano to build on.
Solid drafting as usual, but I agree with the others that the rest of his team, does look slightly depleted or still weak for a semifinal. Especially the Hassler/Bene flank.
The team does have a early Madrid setup like look. A GOAT left sided attack (Gento/Di Stefano/Puskas) with a significantly lesser rated right side.
In that sense, Figo is a great pick for Harms because he would need the work rate.

Tilting towards Tuppet for now because Mcneill is a good match up for Law in the air and Pele looks containable between Kaiser and Desailly.
Figo was a great pick but I cant fully digest Suarez in Effenberg out even though I love them both as players. The balance of that midfield is quite off for me in a GOAT contest (I keep mentioning this as the little work rate any decent midfielder offers is not about enough in games like these)
 
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Theon

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I was under the impression that Suarez was more of an AM. What was he like as a CM?
He could definitely play deeper and most would argue deep-lying playmaker was his best role. His passing ability is regarded as one of the most important reasons for the success of the Inter Milan side of the mid-60’s, which played on the counter attack largely of his long passing. Tactics are a little bit different in harms’ side but I think he’d probably relish playing with those wingers.

But yes, the counter to that is it’s definitely a bit weaker defensively than the Effenberg / Lerby partnership imo. There’s also a lot of ball playing ability in the side, so its unlikely Suárez would he quite as influential in this role as he was for Grande Inter. Can’t work out whether that’s a problem or not yet though.
 

harms

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While Suarez is an upgrade in attacking sense over Effenberg, I don't think he has a patch on him when it comes to work rate and contributing in the defensive 3rd. Not in a GOAT team context anyways.
He definitely is. I know that people are rarely bothered to look through my videos, but here are his defensive stats from the game against Dortmund (fecking hell, I just compiled them and now I'm tempted to check them again as they are unbelievable :lol:)

blocks 3
interceptions 11 + 1 that he intercepted and gave away
tackles 8/13
 
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harms

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But yes, the counter to that is it’s definitely a bit weaker defensively than the Effenberg / Lerby partnership.
His defensive performances against Dortmund and Real Madrid (I had already wrote the stats for those who don't have the time to watch the compilation, which I, obviously, prefer) were better than anything I saw of Effenberg to be honest. He liked to get into some mean tackles (much more than Suarez — and I'd say that he was a more skilful tackler overall), but he was a tad lazy, while Suárez was just buzzing all over the pitch for 90 minutes, and sometimes it looked like he is a some sort of the ball magnet, as almost every one of Dortmund's long balls found him in the middle.
 

idmanager

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He definitely is. I know that people are rarely bothered to look through my videos, but here are his defensive stats from the game against Dortmund (fecking hell, I just compiled them and now I'm tempted to check them again as they are unbelievable :lol:)

blocks 3
interceptions 11 + 1 that he intercepted and gave away
tackles 8/13
FWIW, I did watch your videos before commenting. I think those stats are not telling the real story. I'll let others watch and comment.
Even Gerson would have decent stats like these and you are bound to have them when defending against counters in a deep lying position.
 

harms

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FWIW, I did watch your videos before commenting. I think those stats are not telling the real story. I'll let others watch and comment.
Even Gerson would have decent stats like these and you are bound to have them when defending against counters in a deep lying position.
Alright, I just didn't know that after watching those you can say that he's had a little workrate :) Again, the videos probably don't show this but when you watch full games with the focus on one player's movement, you see how much he moves around, and he was no Gerson. Especially since there is literally a dominating performance against Di Stefano's (albeit an oldish one) led midfield. It's a shame that the DLP version of Suárez didn't overlap with the peak Di Stefano, that would've been some battle.

(I keep mentioning this as the little work rate any decent midfielder offers is not about enough in games like these)
I'd also take Lerby, who's had lots of performances as the deepest midfielder (usually for the NT, not for Ajax or Bayern) ahead of Bedin or Tagnin for this role, but at least here I can understand where you're coming from.
 

Indnyc

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Dont like the Suarez Lerby midfield here. While Suarez is an upgrade in attacking sense over Effenberg, I don't think he was a patch on him when it comes to work rate and contributing in the defensive 3rd. Not in a GOAT team context anyways.

The Inter Suarez did play from the deep orchestrating play but there was always a designated pure DM behind him in Bedin to make it work. I don't think Lerby is anywhere near capable of something like that.
Also, when the opposition number 10 is Di Stefano (both in the attacking and defensive sense), it is not a inspiring setup for me.
It’s interesting to note that Suarez in the inter system was almost playing in a 2 man midfield with Bedin who was also a B2B midfielder playing in a defensive role.. He certainly wasn’t a pure destroyer.. Mazzola was more attacking in that sense..

To me the Lerby - Suarez midfield can work if there is enough support from other players.. Pele does drop in deep to help out and I think it could work.. May not be able to shut out Di Stefano completely though
 

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It’s interesting to note that Suarez in the inter system was almost playing in a 2 man midfield with Bedin who was also a B2B midfielder playing in a defensive role.. He certainly wasn’t a pure destroyer.. Mazzola was more attacking in that sense..
It's not Suarez role, but Lerby's that is getting questioned here. He is stylistically different than Lerby. Bedin was a DM who can contribute offensively. Lerby was more of a pure B2B who contributed defensively. Not sold on that pairing.

I slightly varied from 4-2-3-1 to add another more technically gifted attacking player in Hassler to try and take control of the midfield.
Quite strange to let Hassler take control of the midfield when you have Beckenbauer and Di Stefano in the team. Move Desailly to CB and Beckenbauer in '66 DM role and you don't even need Hassler there. Between him and AdS they can run the midfield on their own!
 

idmanager

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It’s interesting to note that Suarez in the inter system was almost playing in a 2 man midfield with Bedin who was also a B2B midfielder playing in a defensive role.. He certainly wasn’t a pure destroyer.. Mazzola was more attacking in that sense..
To be fair Grande Inter was a team where Suarez worked as a charm from the deep because it had a setup where the midfield was quite often bypassed in the attacking phase of the game.
You had long balls played from the deep from Picchi/Suarez which was their main source of out ball with Mazzola then setting up the offensive on his own most times. (Which is why I rate him higher than Rivera).

And I wouldn't call it a 2 man midfield as such. Doesn't get depicted in formation pictures sometimes, but Mario Corso (left winger) was someone who constantly joined the midfield (Rivellino-esque but not in the same class skill wise at least. Still very highly rated by the Italians).

Grande Inter was full of players like that doing more than one job. Take Jair, was super fast in attack on the right wing but his defensive work rate was so good, Burgnich was almost always tucked in. Almost converts to a 5-3-2 off the ball which is very different again.

Bedin again I don't think was as balanced as Lerby in attack-defense. He was way more defensive minded. I would categorize him a DM rather than a B2B. From what little I have watched, always saw him sit in front of the defense. As Harms correctly says, it was Suarez who ran all around with the ball. To be honest, although I have not concentrated on him in the matches I saw, I hardly saw Bedin join the attacks.
 

harms

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It's not Suarez role, but Lerby's that is getting questioned here. He is stylistically different than Lerby. Bedin was a DM who can contribute offensively. Lerby was more of a pure B2B who contributed defensively. Not sold on that pairing.
He was much more defensive playing for the NT than most of your b2bs. I'd probably compare him to Tigana in that sense, who I'd be happy to have here as well.

There's a good story from the Euro 1984 semi-final between Denmark and Spain. The Spanish were causing all sorts of problems down their right flank. So Lerby tells his left-back to get to feck and takes over his position, helping to stem the tide and bring the Danes back into the game.
When you look at Zito (and my midfield is roughly based on that Brazil one), he wasn't your sitting holding midfielder either.
 

Indnyc

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It's not Suarez role, but Lerby's that is getting questioned here. He is stylistically different than Lerby. Bedin was a DM who can contribute offensively. Lerby was more of a pure B2B who contributed defensively. Not sold on that pairing.
I thought the question was does Suarez replace what Effenberg brought to the midfield? The previous midfield was Lerby -Effenberg and IMO Lerby - Suarez is a better pairing
 

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He was much more defensive playing for the NT than most of your b2bs. I'd probably compare him to Tigana in that sense, who I'd be happy to have here as well.
Denmark played a very attacking formation iirc with numbers in midfield. It was a 3-5-2 with wingers instead of fullbacks in the midfield. Their manager Piontek actually had a quote which said his formation was made because he had plethora of midfielders but few defensive midfielders. I reckon only Bertelsen was the pure DM in that team. Lerby was pretty much doing an all action role around left midfield, imo.


 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I thought the question was does Suarez replace what Effenberg brought to the midfield? The previous midfield was Lerby -Effenberg and IMO Lerby - Suarez is a better pairing
More plamaking at cost of lesser workrate and ball winning capacity. Lerby is too good a player to play a holding/covering role for Suarez. He can do it ofc, but it's not really optimal use of him.
 

harms

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More plamaking at cost of lesser workrate and ball winning capacity.
That's what I can't agree with. Effenberg was a fairly static player and I won't say that his work rate was exceptional (in fact, Suárez had a better one). He looked tough and got into some fantastic tackles from time to time though (that tackle on Keane, for example :drool:), which elevated his reputation in that respect. A fantastic playmaker though, who didn't need to work that hard because he was always surrounded by the runners.
 

Joga Bonito

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While Suarez is an upgrade in attacking sense over Effenberg, I don't think he was a patch on him when it comes to work rate and contributing in the defensive 3rd. Not in a GOAT team context anyways.
Nah, whilst Effenberg offered more steel, I’d rank Suarez’s defensive acumen and industry higher. He was the midfield marshall for Herrera’s La Grande Inter and not your average deep lying playmaker which he tends to be wrongly viewed as. Heck just watch the game against the USSR for the less defensively solid Spain and you’d get what I’m talking about.

The Inter Suarez did play from the deep orchestrating play but there was always a designated pure DM behind him in Bedin to make it work. I don't think Lerby is anywhere near capable of something like that.
Tbf Bedin was a solid defensive presence but there were times when he was assigned on custom man marking duties (harms made a post on that and even vids if I remember correctly) and dropped deep into the defensive line and Corso was an AM who frequently drifted out to the left to support Facchetti whilst he had decent work rate (same could be said for Mazzola and Piero too). However, Suarez was very much a crucial part of Inter’s set up defensively as he was offensively, with his defensive nous, industry and ball winning abilities.

On Lerby, you are once again underrating his tactical discipline, and this is not the first time I’ve seen him being regarded as a gung ho B2B who went flying about or something. Watch the game against Platini’s France in 1984 (there’s a compilation of that match) or his game against the WC winning Italian side in 1981. He is more than capable of sturdy and disciplined performances in the engine room. In fact I’d go as far as to say he was the Danish Dynamites best player after Elkjaer and was the controlling presence in midfield (more so than Laudrup who was not at his peak obviously and more of a roaming forward).


But yes, the counter to that is it’s definitely a bit weaker defensively than the Effenberg / Lerby partnership imo. There’s also a lot of ball playing ability in the side, so its unlikely Suárez would he quite as influential in this role as he was for Grande Inter. Can’t work out whether that’s a problem or not yet though.
I would say it has lost a bit of steel but there was always more than enough of that to start with, with someone like Lerby :lol:, but is actually better now defensively. With a steely ball winner like Lefby alongside him, I’d rate Suarez’s defensive nous and dynamism more in this set up.
 

idmanager

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@Joga Bonito

One of the reasons I keep mentioning in the GOAT context is because of this.

Okay, lets say I am underrating Lerby and Suarez both for some reason (I don't think I am but I'll play along as there will always be slightly different views. Its not like I am calling him Pirlo and you are calling him Desailly).

Do you think the pair is good enough to handle Di Stefano and a on-rushing Hassler? Not that I rate Hassler very highly considering who else is around, but he will take away some attention and give all the more freedom for Di Stefano to run the show.

For me, a peak Di Stefano (not the 38 year old one in 1964 when he faced Suarez) would rip Suarez apart.

You always have to remember the context in such games. He might have work rate and defensive capability (not very high as per me and good enough for you which is fair), but do you think that is enough against the giant he is facing? Fair enough if you do.

I am making it tough for myself to pick these players in the future drafts I feel at times :lol:
 

Moby

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Aye, if anyone has been underrated in this game, it is Alfredo Di Stefano, of all players. Can't imagine him facing much resistance here whatsoever.
 

harms

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Aye, if anyone has been underrated in this game, it is Alfredo Di Stefano, of all players. Can't imagine him facing much resistance here whatsoever.
Honestly, I expected Di Stefano to start as a #10 like he did in the last game, and apart from my midfield, which is not enough to stop peak Di Stefano, I also have Bobby Moore. Not to say that Vidić and Evra will completely nullify Kocsis and Bene, but they are well-equipped to face them, which leaves my best defender relatively free to handle the Argentinian, who will obviously break through from time to time.
 

Tuppet

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Quite strange to let Hassler take control of the midfield when you have Beckenbauer and Di Stefano in the team. Move Desailly to CB and Beckenbauer in '66 DM role and you don't even need Hassler there. Between him and AdS they can run the midfield on their own!
Well there are a couple of reasons, ofcourse I thought about that. But
a) I do need Beckenbauer in defense, if I moved him to midfield won't have anyone credible in defense.

b) But more imporatantly I don't want Beckenbauer & Di Stefano so close together. Hassler is a fine support act, a peach that you would place with a GOAT. But you don't want Beckenbauer to just show his work rate and defensiveness while Di stefano is the one who runs the midfield. Its the same thing I mentioned in your game, its diminishing returns. With my setup, Hassler would use his work rate and obvious talent on ball to support Di Stefano while Beckenbauer runs the game from his Libero position.
 

Theon

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I watched the video @harms - quality of the actual recording is fantastic, better than some games in the 70s and 80s even. Thanks for uploading it.

I’ll have a read in more detail at the various arguments after work but initial view is still that the defensive aspect of his game should ideally be stronger in a 4-4-2 set up, and also I did think that Effenberg was stronger defensively but again - I’ll have a proper read, particular at Joga’s post as well.

I’ve voted to see score but know my vote doesn’t count. Hope that’s alright @Physiocrat
 

harms

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I watched the video @harms - quality of the actual recording is fantastic, better than some games in the 70s and 80s even. Thanks for uploading it.
Yeah, I know a guy with a big collection of games and I acquire them from time to time :) It was so refreshing to switch from an awful 1964 final recording to a 4GB file of that feature against Borussia

It seems that it's a German footage, I'd guess that they've had more money/better recording equipment at that time, same as the British Pathe
 

Tuppet

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The whole thing that Vidic would completely nullify Kocsis is also weird. Its not like nobody scored a header against us when Vidic was playing. Kocsis is literally the greatest header of the ball and supplied by one of the greatest winger of all time. He played in an era when defenders were always ready for these tactics , he still scored more headers than most strikers score goals in their career. Having Vidic would help but saying that he would nullify Kocsis is like me saying Desailly has everything in his game to stop Pele so thats covered.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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a) I do need Beckenbauer in defense, if I moved him to midfield won't have anyone credible in defense.
I reckon Desailly is a Top tier CB (I'f put him in tier 1.5 per other thread).
Other point is having Beckenbauer and Benarrivo on same side. Both are attack minded players and without the calming impact of Schwarzenbeck in-between, I don't see it as perfect..
 

Tuppet

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I reckon Desailly is a Top tier CB (I'f put him in tier 1.5 per other thread).
Other point is having Beckenbauer and Benarrivo on same side. Both are attack minded players and without the calming impact of Schwarzenbeck in-between, I don't see it as perfect..
The reason a is only partly the reason, its second reason that was more important. Desailly is a better DM than he was a CB at least to me, Desailly is defensively the best DM ever. Rijkaard is better on ball, but defensively there is nothing between them.

As for Benarrivo, it is here where instructions matter. He was a solid defender and played in defensive roles multiple times. He can go forward and do attacking when deployed in a wingback role, but here he is deployed in a back 4 and asked to be disciplined, there is absolutely no reason that he won't be able to do it.