Yeah, his life is fascinating.
Pat VS Downcast - NT peak draft
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
I've only seen Netzer at Euro 72, nothing from Real or Gladbach but seeing him there demonstrates why he couldn't play with Overath. Overath was an 8 and effectively so was Netzer, he just put in less defensive work. He starts really deep in '72 and drives forward it's like he's a box-to-box version of a DLP. Kopa was more of a classic 10/forward so I don't see him treading on toes in the same way Overath would.
I'm not really sure what that proves. It was a high-scoring tournament in general and a particularly cavalier France team, who destroyed teams going forward (in very large part due to your Kopa/Fontaine axis of course) but were very porous defensively, conceding 3 goals vs both Yugoslavia and Paraguay, and 5 vs Brazil. Its not a ringing endorsement for relying on Kopa as a ball-winner in midfield.Kopa: no work-rate?
France 1958
Wasn't supposed to be a critique. He was comfortable dropping deep and doing a job and class for an attacking midfielder. But he's facing a top class midfield and having to dispossess Kopa, Zito or Netzer who are all difficult for the defensively best central midfielders. On the contrary Netzer and Kopa will have a similar job at their hands and won't be able to stop Platini either even with Zico there.
Where are all these formation pics from?
Sauce. As they say.
In general, they often give you a very limited idea of the player's actual role - many of them are just standard formations with the player in what happens to be the closest (standard) position available.
And others are simply wrong.
Whereas others again are meant to illustrate something particular (arrows indicating movements in certain phases, etc.).
I guess what I'm saying is - be careful not to read too much into them.
Sauce. As they say.
In general, they often give you a very limited idea of the player's actual role - many of them are just standard formations with the player in what happens to be the closest (standard) position available.
And others are simply wrong.
Whereas others again are meant to illustrate something particular (arrows indicating movements in certain phases, etc.).
I guess what I'm saying is - be careful not to read too much into them.
I know mate
. I just had to address the difference in my set up and the France 84 team as it was brought up early on. I do agree that thwarting the attacking talent on show here is a daunting task for both sides. I do feel I've set up more pragmatically than Downcast here though to mitigate against the opposition threat, passing up on more illustrious names to field two defensive powerhouses in Lerby and Fernandez. I don't see an equivalent level of planning to mitigate against Platini and Kempes.Are Xavi and Iniesta generally defined as 'ball-winners'?
Kopa has a high work-rate, an opinion not based on my imagination but on the 2 full games I've watched
If I follow your logic, Pelé and Ghiggia are overrated because in the 50s the defences were 'very porous defensively'.
A last post on Netzer
Will come back tonight.
She votes Downcast.
Yup, I get that.. but Khurt from what I saw, is an exceptional ball player and almost Baresi like, but even more gung ho it seemed when he had the ball. He naturally seemed to flow forwards with the attack.
Even if i am assuming both these guys are playing relatively conservatively, I still think their physical attributes as a pairing, doesn't convince me that they'd be the ideal fit. Both good teams, so I have to be fussy in trying to identify any competitive advantages.
In general I do find the Wikipedia ones a tad suspect, even if its usually just minor details like prtraying the CBs as playing on the wrong side. Their steadfast refusal to portray that 1980s France Magic Square as a square continues to amuse me though.
No doubt about that. I rate your side far more balanced but at the same time I rate his side in terms of how accurate it is compared to that French side. I guess it all comes down to how you see Netzer and Kopa obviously but from having him the last draft I guess I am a bit biased that way. Saw a lot of his games and he was incredible clever and had a good work rate as well and had to link up in that Madrid side with an awful lots of playmakers. I think Netzer would be a good fit for him too as he provides that deeper play and a passing range which adds a lot to the team.I know mate
So I see you scoring a lot of goals, but the same goes for Downcast as that France '58 side scored for fun.
You're not seriously trying to compare Netzer's style of play out of possession to Xavi and Iniesta's are you?
And I didn't really comment on defences in general in that post. I was specifically referring to the 1958 France team, and I think its entirely reasonable to describe a team who conceded 3+ goals in 3 out of their 5 matches as porous defensively. Brilliant in attack, thanks mainly to Kopa/Fontaine, mind.
Sure, any picture has to be taken with precaution but it gives an idea.
More broadly, to say one thing is wrong is one thing, but it is another thing to explain/exemplify why a thing is supposedly wrong.
More broadly, to say one thing is wrong is one thing, but it is another thing to explain/exemplify why a thing is supposedly wrong.
I don't have any defensive player who played for France 58...
I knew you would enjoy that titbit and the other two
She votes Downcast.
Some teams were successful with a single central playmaker, some with 2.
You say the main quality of 'Netzer/Kopa isn't their 'ball-winning skills'. I could say the same about Xavi and Iniesta.
You lost me there.
They are well known for being able to press and hound the opposition, so - yes? More or less.
You posted a formation picture of France 1958 to highlight Kopa's defensive work rate.
so France's overall style of play and defensive record seems worthy of discussion as a response.Kopa: no work-rate?
France 1958
She votes Downcast.
The pictures illustrates his work-rate, yes. I tend to trust somebody who spent time on the matter.
You are free to think Kopa is the man to be blamed for the defensive record of France 58...
Because of Kopa, France never won a world-cup in the 50s
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Please don't get me wrong.
The idea was to say 2 central playmakers can play together.
Remind me where I said that?The picture means he has work-rate, yes.
You are free to think Kopa is the man to be blamed for the defensive record of France 58...
Because of Kopa, France never won a world-cup in the 50s
Certainly - they have to be complimentary, though.
In general (disregarding Netzer's particular traits), you make a fair point on Kopa: He knew how to tailor his game to blend with an extremely dominant orchestrator like Di Stefano, so I have no doubts about his general ability to work alongside another creative force.
In fact, if I recall rightly, this was something he worked on specifically in the early stage of his career - he was a bit of a show pony who modified his game to become more selfless, more of a «facilitator», as people say.
Working well with Di Stefano doesn't equate to working well with Netzer, though - the latter being a very different breed of player.
It's your underlying message.
I'm going out soon and I've got some other stuff I want to
What message did you expect in response to that France 58 picture? I felt it was a flimsy piece of evidence to support Kopa's effectiveness when I have possession, and I responded accordingly. I'm hardly pinning their defensive record solely on Kopa.
I have no problems with Kopa and Netzer working together. My issue is whether they will get enough of the ball to use them to the optimum and the skill, vision they bring to the table. Pat has a lot of steel in midfield and Platini to run the game.
The only "issue" I see is whether the back 5 with Zito can support the more attacking front 5 and generally how the midfield will work off the ball.
I see @Downcast brought the example with Germany and Wimmer but there was Beckenbauer with his forays who brought balance to that midfield apart from Wimmer anchoring. I don't see Blanc and Khurtsilava doing the same tbh.
The only "issue" I see is whether the back 5 with Zito can support the more attacking front 5 and generally how the midfield will work off the ball.
I see @Downcast brought the example with Germany and Wimmer but there was Beckenbauer with his forays who brought balance to that midfield apart from Wimmer anchoring. I don't see Blanc and Khurtsilava doing the same tbh.
There's not been much focus on the respective defences, so a reminder of some of my players' tournament peaks:
Not Blanc imo, as he wasn't exactly a libero who frequently pushed forward but rather more of a cultured ball playing defender. More sweeper in style than a libero. The only worry would be the lack of physical presence and aerial dominance in that duo, esp against Elkjaer. (That being said Khurtsilava did a brilliant job against Jose Torres in the 1966 WC aerially, so that was a bit surprising). Wouldn't say they'd struggle so much against pace myself, esp Blanc.
Aye, this. Netzer was more of a deep lying playmaker for Germany 1972 who drove forward and he could work with creative players, so long as they were direct and willing to combine with him imo. Kopa is one of such and I can see it being a good partership although Zito could potentially be overtasked here but he was more or less a one man fort holding the Brazilian 1958-1962 sides.
^^
Khurtisilava does exactly that.
Lovely sides from both sides and I really like both set-ups here. Downcast's side will be lovely to watch on the ball and whilst he does have less grit and work-rate in the middle (relatively), he has one of the better DMs in the draft and most crucially, can be expected to play some cracking possession (direct but not reckless) football here with Netzer at the helm and the supporting cast around him. Zito is perfect as a ball-playing DM, Kopa is a great complement in the attacking midfield slot, who can be expected to combine rather well with Netzer but also Schnellinger and Khurtsilava providing great auxillary support from the back, which has gone seriously under the radar here (esp Schnellinger who is frequently accused of being a non width providing full-back whilst his ability to help the midfield and the possession game goes unnoticed almost every single game). He's got a plethora of options on the ball and the likes of Fontaine, Henry and Rahn to aim at. Can see him reprising his 1972 form here definitely.
Pretty much another great side around Platini from Pat although I was slightly dissapointed to see Hassler on the bench, thought Fernandez-Lerby-Hassler-Platini with a duo of Elkjaer and Kempes would have been something else. That being said I can understand why he went with Ghiggia who complements Thuram better and also provides some notable goalscoring threat. It's just that Hassler would have worked so brilliantly in tha midfield and I'd have preferred another slick one-two, link-up player somewhere there alongside Platini. But a cracking team nonetheless and Platini would be a joy to watch in that set-up, with the defense being really solid too.
Brazil 58 and 62 won the WC with Zito in a relatively similar tactical system. He was part of the team of the tournaments.
History/Facts say 'It works'
Now, I can understand some think football was crap in the 50s, which has the benefit of shortening the discussions.
I don't duplicate Germany 72.
I just say Netzer play in a natural position - unlike some of the opposing players who reached their peak in a very different tactical system.
Otherwise, rename the draft and call it 'All-time Draft'
I will come back tonight ++
@Joga Bonito on Khurtsilava - he's excellent on the ball no doubt and could do it but alongside Blanc I can see him being more of a proactive stopper than libero per say.
Yeah I can understand that mate, I'm not sure only how your midfield will function defensively at this point and off the ballBrazil 58 and 62 won the WC with Zito in a relatively similar tactical system. He was part of the team of the tournaments.
History/Facts say 'It works'
Now, I can understand some think football was crap in the 50s, which has the benefit of shortening the discussions.
I don't duplicate Germany 72.
I just say Netzer play in a natural position - unlike some of the opposing players who reached their peak in a very different tactical system.
Otherwise, rename the draft and call it 'All-time Draft'
He doesn't need to function as an expansive libero though, he's more than comfortable at taking the ball out of defense and providing auxiliary support for Netzer. Downcast's got one of the better ball-playing DMs in Zito, Schnellinger of all people at LB and Khurtsilava, with Blanc and Andrade in tow, so I don't see the rationale for the lack of support the midfield (both in terms of possession and in terms of personnel) has from defense here.
Nice little dig thereBrazil 58 and 62 won the WC with Zito in a relatively similar tactical system. He was part of the team of the tournaments.
History/Facts say 'It works'
Now, I can understand some think football was crap in the 50s, which has the benefit of shortening the discussions.
I don't duplicate Germany 72.
I just say Netzer play in a natural position - unlike some of the opposing players who reached their peak in a very different tactical system.
Otherwise, rename the draft and call it 'All-time Draft'
. I'd say my players have at least as high a tournament peak as yours. As far as my players being used outside of their tournament roles:Back Four: All these players played in a back four at their respective WCs and they're all in their correct position (Cannavaro played both as a right-sided CB and a left-sided CB in different matches throughout WC 06). Lizarazu played in a very narrow France 98 team so he's got pedigree in provding the width with no orthodox winger ahead of him.
Fernandez: A very similar role to his position in the Magic Square - the most defensive-minded midfield player, with a defensively strong box to box player beside him (Lerby for Tigana).
Lerby: Was often the deepest midfield player for Denmark in Euro 84, frequently picking up possession from his GK to start attacks. He wasn't a left winger in this tournament as you seemed to suggest in one of your earlier posts. He's getting deployed similarly to his Euro 84 brief, with marginally more freedom if anything.
Platini: The main orchestrator of this team just as he was in 1984, with two defensively strong midfielders behind him and a roving, space-creating CF ahead of him. The principal changes are Kempes' stylistic contrast to Giresse, and an orthodox right winger instead of another drifting forward. I don't personally view that as a wildly different set up.
Kempes:
It was in this game that Menotti made his one tactical error. He decided to play Kempes as an orthodox centre forward between two wingers...Now he was a fish out of water, denied the invaluable support of the injured Luque, denied the room and space he would find by dropping further back.
Ghiggia: Played as a right winger for Uruguay, plays as a right winger here.
Elkjaer: Played as a mobile centre forward for Denmark, plays as a mobile centre forward here.
Of course the likes of France '84, Argentina '78 and Uruguay '50 don't have identical styles of play, but I've used my players in broadly their 'correct' tournament roles.
Whereas Andrade never played in a back four like you're deploying him here, Blanc and Khurtsiliva didn't play in the high defensive line that your team sheet suggests you are using, and Schnellinger's general style of play doesn't really warrant the offensive arrow you've given him here. Kopa's only playing with three attackers ahead of him rather than the 4 that your France 58 formation picture portray....yada yada yada. All of which is largely irrelevant, but its nonsense to state that I'm somehow cheating the spirit of the draft and you're faithfully using all your players just as they played in their respective tournaments.
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Well to be honest I'm going with his EURO 72 incarnation and in a deeper back four with Konkov, Troskin and Kolotov in front of them, while the other team had Wimmer and Beckenbauer stepping up to support the midfield, which is how I see things.
Pat's team has Platini, Elkjaer and Kempes cutting in from Khurtsilava RCB side which IMO would make it a bit difficult for him to also support the midfield and cover for Kempes/Elkjaer when needed.
Too many options mate with this fecking 14 man squad
. I was sorely tempted to play Hassler pretty much as a Giresse surrogate as I agree he'd have been outstanding alongside Platini. I opted for Ghiggia partly due to his pivotal role in WC '50, and because I want to stop Schnellinger tucking in to support his CBs and Zito. Also, Kempes himself attributed his dramatic upturn in form as WC '78 progressed to moving to a deeper position, so I was reluctant to play him right up top with Elkjaer.Although no one remembers it now I began Argentina 1978 out of position, not having any contact with the ball. I talked it over with Menotti and we came to the conclusion that I was playing out of position. I was too advanced, I needed to accelerate from further behind, to be able to beat defenders with my power.