I'm I right in thinking Schnellinger was more of a defensive LB than an attacking one?
Pat VS Downcast - NT peak draft
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
Generally, yes.
He played centrally too, iirc.
He wasn't super conservative as an LB in '66, though, from what I remember. He did venture forward a bit. But his reputation is clearly based on him being extremely solid defensively.
Thanks Chester. This reinforces my view he isn't optimal for Henry
1958 and 1962: left CB
1966: LB
In 1970 he played centrally though.
He was very gifted on the ball, but the problem is he isn't a width providing full-back, he was more a Junior/Breitner style playmaking full back (but much better defensively), where he'd come in and link up with midfield, playmake from deeper areas. If you have an out and out left footer like a Dzajic, Schnellinger would be a great fit as he can come in off the flank and link up but with an inverted winger like Henry, he isn't the ideal fit.
Definitely a talent going forwards and more gifted on the ball than even someone like Gentile etc, i.e. proper defensive full backs. He was technically very high tier on the ball.
The concept of 'international peak' is subject to different interpretations. Nobody cheats.
Re the debate about tournament peaks, I'm not seeing anyone on the park not playing something similar to the job they did for their country in their best tournament. Seems like a fair representation all in all.
In hindsight, I agree with you.
@Downcast - Have you got a tactical approach or style of play in place for this game? I got plenty in your write-up about your players, but what's your strategy here to overcome Pat?>
Good question.
My offensive strategy relies on 5 players.
Zito - as he successfully did with Brazil 58 and Brazil 62 - has the duty to protect the defence and play simply.
1. Lerby and Kempes have a high work-rate and tend to play on the left if I refer to their international peak. On the other hand, Luis Fernandez has to cover Ghiggia who is a pure winger if I'm not wrong. That is why, I see Netzer and Henry as my biggest assets from a strategic/tactical perspective: a mobile/collective Netzer and a Thierry Henry cutting inside while Fernandez has to keep an eye on Kopa or Fontaine. I don't believe in the capacity of Fernandez to cover everything.
3. Kempes 78 will tend to cut inside, which is a good thing for a player like JL Andrade who was also capable to be a brilliant defensive midfielder.
4. Elkjaer is an excellent striker: 4 goals at the WC 86 but he didn't score against teams like Germany and Spain. He scored 3 goals against Uruguay whose central defenders are not the greatest I'd say. My central defenders seem to be under-rated here while they have made great games against better CF.
5. Thuram is a beast I appreciate but his offensive contribution is rather limited (I do remember his great perf against Croatia though). Schnellinger will have only one player to manage (Ghiggia).
About Henry, an illustration: Angry and hungry Henry 2000 full of speed MAN OF THE MATCH against Cannavaro & Nesta 2000 during the EURO FINAL
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@Physiocrat @Joga Bonito @Chesterlestreet
Thanks for making the thread alive
Thanks for making the thread alive
If you watch my post above, you would see Henry doesn't need an offensive LB.
Love how even this game is as it should be. Fontaine-Kopa against Platini.
Initially I did have problems with the idea, but it's actually growing on me. Netzer really played incredibly deep in 1972, often dropping even behind Beckenbauer and actually temporarily staying behind and acting as a sweeper when Beckenbauer made runs forward. That Germany side was so unique and incredibly entertaining because they did play brilliantly together without a single player hogging the ball but rather moving well as a team, playing 1-2s all over the pitch. And from what I've seen, I don't think Kopa dropped as deep as for example Platini regularly did or demanded the ball as often in deep areas. Obviously both Netzer and Kopa can't fully excel as the one pulling the strings for their team, they have to give up something and share responsibility in midfield more than they did in their respective tournament peaks. But considering their characters and thinking about the way they played at times for their clubs, they should be brilliant together.
Fontaine-Kopa: one of the greatest offensive duo at the International level
Henry brings pace, threat
Rahn was also a lovely player with a strong physical impact, not a gift for a player like Liza
Kopa & Netzer: collective players with exceptional passing skills
Zito the Brazilian anchor who won 2 WC in a similar role (lonely anchor watching 5 players doing the offensive job)
Blanc played a key role in the success of France 96-2000
Khurtislava is rather the tough guy
Schnellinger and JL Andrade have nothing to envy from Thuram+Lizarazu
Henry brings pace, threat
Rahn was also a lovely player with a strong physical impact, not a gift for a player like Liza
Kopa & Netzer: collective players with exceptional passing skills
Zito the Brazilian anchor who won 2 WC in a similar role (lonely anchor watching 5 players doing the offensive job)
Blanc played a key role in the success of France 96-2000
Khurtislava is rather the tough guy
Schnellinger and JL Andrade have nothing to envy from Thuram+Lizarazu
Thanks for your post.
Happy someone understands my view.
Kopa (the player #18) was really a collective player: there are other videos page 1
Yep, no issue with that, of course. He played centrally at times, though, which underlines his defensive prowess (so to speak). More Maldini than Carlos, if you will - that's all I meant.
EDIT As Joga says, he operated as a sweeper in '70.
@Downcast I didn't notice it before - why does it say «Downcast - Remake of France '58»?
Is that the idea behind the selection? If so, there are at least a couple of players that seem like odd choices. Netzer being the most obvious one.
Clarification?
Is that the idea behind the selection? If so, there are at least a couple of players that seem like odd choices. Netzer being the most obvious one.
Clarification?
Yeah, it isn't a proper remake.
My initial theme was to have a 100% France team, then a Germany-France team. It would have been boring.
Let's say I've built a team around my 2 first picks - Kopa and Fontaine - to speak about France 58.
I see - that's fine. Potentially confusing «headline», though.
As for the match, I like both teams.
I like Pat's clear cut build around Platini. Proper use of a GOAT whose theme specific peak is beyond doubt (it's Maradona territory).
Then again, Downcast's team makes sense, largely, and features an impressive cast. If you buy Netzer in this set-up he could be devastating - decisive, even. His insane passes could be absolutely deadly here, with him having plenty of options to aim for.
Zito being somewhat stranded in certain possible scenarios is a worry, though. I buy Pat's basic point: a) Zito is the only credible man in that axis if we're talking high level defensive contribution. b) Kempes and Ghiggia will occupy Schnellinger and Andrade. c) Elkjaer will hassle the CBs, drag whoever tracks him around.
This is a good (not ideal in the sense that Downcast is fecked by any means - the pure numbers are still on his side) scenario for Platini. And Platini is the best player on the park - if we're talking draft theme, this is even more evident.
Anyway, not voting - I generally don't feel like voting in these GOATish affairs, usually seems to me that either side could nick it through some moment of magic or other. Too fantastic even for a fantasy match, etc.
A reminder of Platini's Euro '84 tournament:
9 goals in 5 games, scoring in every match including 2 hat tricks. An astonishing record for a player who was also the team's main playmaker, frequently starting moves from deep in his own half. He was in the midst of winning 3 consecutive Ballon d'Ors at this point of his career, and this was without question a GOAT candidate at the very peak of his powers.
9 goals in 5 games, scoring in every match including 2 hat tricks. An astonishing record for a player who was also the team's main playmaker, frequently starting moves from deep in his own half. He was in the midst of winning 3 consecutive Ballon d'Ors at this point of his career, and this was without question a GOAT candidate at the very peak of his powers.
Having thought about it again, I'd like to withdraw my vote here @Annahnomoss
It's just too close to call, one on hand I can see Pat's phenomenal defense holding out, with Platini in his pomp with the ideal midfield setting and 2 fantastic forwards and Ghiggia in his 1950 form stretching play. On the other hand, the Netzer-Kopa duo looks brilliant to me, with the likes of Fontaine and Rahn providing some great goalscoring threat. Going to chicken out here, sorry for the inconvenience caused.
It's just too close to call, one on hand I can see Pat's phenomenal defense holding out, with Platini in his pomp with the ideal midfield setting and 2 fantastic forwards and Ghiggia in his 1950 form stretching play. On the other hand, the Netzer-Kopa duo looks brilliant to me, with the likes of Fontaine and Rahn providing some great goalscoring threat. Going to chicken out here, sorry for the inconvenience caused.
I agree with a fair amount of this but there's a few points I'd make.Good question.
My offensive strategy relies on 5 players.
Zito - as he successfully did with Brazil 58 and Brazil 62 - has the duty to protect the defence and play simply.
1. Lerby and Kempes have a high work-rate and tend to play on the left if I refer to their international peak. On the other hand, Luis Fernandez has to cover Ghiggia who is a pure winger if I'm not wrong. That is why, I see Netzer and Henry as my biggest assets from a strategic/tactical perspective: a mobile/collective Netzer and a Thierry Henry cutting inside while Fernandez has to keep an eye on Kopa or Fontaine. I don't believe in the capacity of Fernandez to cover everything.
3. Kempes 78 will tend to cut inside, which is a good thing for a player like JL Andrade who was also capable to be a brilliant defensive midfielder.
4. Elkjaer is an excellent striker: 4 goals at the WC 86 but he didn't score against teams like Germany and Spain. He scored 3 goals against Uruguay whose central defenders are not the greatest I'd say. My central defenders seem to be under-rated here while they have made great games against better CF.
5. Thuram is a beast I appreciate but his offensive contribution is rather limited (I do remember his great perf against Croatia though). Schnellinger will have only one player to manage (Ghiggia).
About Henry, an illustration: Angry and hungry Henry 2000 full of speed MAN OF THE MATCH against Cannavaro & Nesta 2000 during the EURO FINAL
Firstly, Thuram is a great fit to face off against Henry, and McGrath at RCB with his freaky recovery pace and knack for crucial blocks and interceptions is a class act to cover.
Secondly, I couldn't agree more that Blanc is top CB in the context of this draft. 3 great torunaments in a row in 1996, 1998 and 2000 I'd point out though that neither Elkjaer or Ghiggia were selected primarily for their goalscoring records. First and foremost they are foils for my two main match winners, Platini and Kempes. Elkjaer to stretch your defence and occupy them with his physicality and movement, Ghiggia to provide width and prevent Schnellinger from tucking in to create a compact defence. Their goalscoring records elevate their standing in this draft pool and establish them as possible match winners, but that's not their primary function here.
We're on 10-10.
Kempes' match-winning performance in the World Cup final, scoring twice and assisting the third for Bertoni. A huge performance in the context of this draft in terms of individual quality, the importance of the match, and the quality of the opposition. That defence he tormented was marshalled by Ruud Krol, and Kempes' other opponents included Johan Neeskens and Arie Haan.
He's a great pick for this draft, absolute match winner.
Damn.. missed the poll by minutes.
Nevertheless, thoughts on Lizarazu vs Rahn guys? @Downcast @Pat_Mustard . Seems deadlocked at 2-2 otherwise..
Nevertheless, thoughts on Lizarazu vs Rahn guys? @Downcast @Pat_Mustard . Seems deadlocked at 2-2 otherwise..
Draw? Missed the finish here due to the early start. I was probably leaning ever so slightly to Pat on the basis that his team was tactically cleaner. Wasn't fully sold on the complementarity of Blanc/Khurt against the rugged bullying presence of Elkjaer, while Zito does look overworked in midfield with his hands full with Platini. That said, I think Downcast had the collective edge in player quality in midfield and attack, with Pat more focused - rightly - on piecing the correct bits of the Platini support act jigsaw.
I'm confused. Didn't DC win with a vote? Both voted for themselves.
Joga withdrew his vote.
Cheers had missed that. Alright so penalties it is. Inevitable really.
@Pat_Mustard @Downcast Send me 10 shots and 10 saves in case 5 doesn't do so we don't have to wait for it.
EDIT: Pat has sent his already.
EDIT: Pat has sent his already.
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A pretty even battle IMO based on their WC credentials, with Rahn certainly having his moments. Rahn's story is pretty interesting. He was a beer-loving, jovial type who didn't even expect to make the squad after some dismal performances in qualifying. He then started the tournament on the bench. Came into the team in West Germany's second match vs Hungary when they rested a load of starters from the previous game, and impressed individually despite the team getting thumped 8-3. He was then dropped again for the next match, came back into the team vs Yugoslavia in the quarter finals and played well, and stayed in the team thereafter. In terms of style of play, he apparently cut inside alot and had a good left foot shot, and he switched wings frequently throughout matches, so it would have been a team effort picking him up for me rather than just a man-marking job for Lizarazu.
If that is the case I would probably have used the 1958 version instead who had match winning performances from Day 1 until the game against Sweden. Always interesting battles between a classic winger and a modern full back.
It would be chaotic for both of them and they'd both have some incredible impact. Lizarazu wouldn't mind not being marked at all when he goes forward, but at the same time Rahn would be confused as he gets to play without an opponent(man marker) too.
Penalties then.
I'll send it now
I'll send it now
Out of curiosity, who was your your preference?
Unsurprisingly Pat sends out Platini, the star man behind the last minute comeback, to take the first penalty. Mazurkiewicz is nervously waiting by the line. Platini runs up and pulls a panenka straight in the middle, and Mazurkiewicz read it all wrong and threw himself to the left. 1-0 to Pat.
Slightly in favour of Lizarazu. Restricting Rahn would involve teamwork, which Pat's team is set up to do. Lizarazu would then influence the game going forward.
Newb question, how are the outcome of the penalty kicks decided?