You think a 31 year-old O'shea wants to hang around Old Trafford, with two new younger players ahead of him in the pecking order?
Patience
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Nani was awful. Evra and Rooney weren't great either.
RvP and Young should have been on long before they were.
RvP and Young should have been on long before they were.
If he'd stayed he'd have played just as much last season as he ever did, and probably this season too. Selling him was a horrendous decision.
He'd have fared no better against Fellaini tonight.
Really? So I take Smalling and Jones would then have to resign themselves to playing Carling Cup matches?
Smalling was ahead of O'Shea in the pecking order in 2011, and he got plenty o games. And yes, I'd not want to see Jones at CB other than in the carling cup. O'Shea would also prevent us from having to run Evra into the ground all the time.
To be fair to the defence they only conceded one goal(ok they got lucky for the osman shot). You have to score if you want to win. We didnt.
Having to play Carrick in defence completely unsettles the side. It cost us the title in 2010, and it cost us the title in 2012, might well do so again this year.
Exactly. Nobody can really claim that conceding one goal at Goodison is some kind of defensive armegeddon.
Certainly feels as if we had an actual CB playing as a CB and Carrick in midfield the game wouldn't have run the way it did, but it's obvious SAF doesn't trust Wooton & co. enough yet, so this was bound to happen.
On the other hand if Scholes would've started alongside Carrick we'd see even slower movement of the ball I reckon, to be fair to Scholes and all his talent and glory, I feel as if this was a game he should've sat out, made a few strong challenges after the yellow as well.
I don't want to be captain hind-sight or anything, but c'mon surely some people are aware of that.
Oh and our attacking play should improve drastically, no reason why not to expect that.
On the other hand if Scholes would've started alongside Carrick we'd see even slower movement of the ball I reckon, to be fair to Scholes and all his talent and glory, I feel as if this was a game he should've sat out, made a few strong challenges after the yellow as well.
I don't want to be captain hind-sight or anything, but c'mon surely some people are aware of that.
Oh and our attacking play should improve drastically, no reason why not to expect that.
The real problem:
Why Fergie/Phelan didn't change up the midfield at half-time. It was an obvious problem. But remained uncorrected.
Why Fergie/Phelan didn't change up the midfield at half-time. It was an obvious problem. But remained uncorrected.
I think he tried to get them to wait till he controls it with his chest and then take it away from him, atleast that's what I saw Cleverley trying to do a number of times in the 2nd half.
And honestly besides Carrick we don't have a strong midfielder, and when going up against a beast like Fellaini on a day like today, I doubt shifting in Anderson would've made much difference. Perhaps shifting Rooney there as he had a "slow day" and moving RvP up front, but again not much would change in the midfield.
I could not disagree more about Evra tonight. I thought he did well. At the end he was a bit ragged though
true, if I had to point fingers my first though today would go to Rooney and Nani.
Evra's crossing was diabolical.
I agree. Patience.
But hilarious the 'need a midfielder' line has been trotted out in my circles. I had to turn away.
I agree. Patience.
But hilarious the 'need a midfielder' line has been trotted out in my circles. I had to turn away.
As poor as we were going forward tonight, Everton were fantastically well organised at the back. For each of those last ditch tackles could have been mistimed and led to a goal and the shot cleared off the line was brilliantly defended.
As much as we deserve criticism, going a goal down to Everton was always going to make things very, very hard tonight.
You didn't answer my question. Who should we sign? Don't say "we shouldn't have got rid of O'Shea", that's in the past, it's done. You're saying we need more defenders, which is wrong, so I'd like you to tell me what United should do.
We should sign O'Shea.
Completely agree, as I said -
His raggedness at the end masked his competent performance.
The problems of our performance were abundant, I thought the defence was OK bar Carrick, we were completely bereft of cutting edge in midfield and attack though (save the excellent Kagawa, who looks like only a slightly less dynamic Iniesta,which is no bad thing!), and a lot of that was down to the knock on effect of losing Carrick in CM. It is worth pointing out that although Carrick was ineffectual at the back vs Fellani, Jelavic et al, we would have fared better physically had he been available in centre midfield, the number of times Fellani toyed with the midget convention in the middle of the pitch was laughable, Cleverly especially seemed mesmerised by Fellani at times.
We looked sluggish after an underwhelming pre-season, but Fellani's physical presence belies his rather superb technique and ball control to obscene levels, and instead of micro-analysing our faults it has to be said that Everton's game plan and the personnel that executed it deserve plaudits.
I've decided to delete my twitter account this evening as well. I agree with Noodle in that I'm coming to enjoy watching United less and less because of the incremental rise in the huge and unjustified levels of bile and bitterness spouted when they lose a game of football, by both fans and non-fans of the team. Social networking has definitely amplified this reaction sadly.
No definitely not but the planning before the game and into the game was poor, Carrick on Fellaini? Crap, just like having Berbatov on Samba at Old Trafford on New Year's Day, I swear they must draw them out of hat. Your best man aerially on there's, end of.
Completely agree with the view that as fans we need a bit of patience to start this season. I think with the addition of Kagawa & to a lesser extent RvP, we've greatly altered our style of play going forward & in a positive way too. Talking in huge generalisms here, but we've gone from a pretty traditional style with wingers & two forwards last season, to adding a type of player like Kagawa, an attacking midfielder, that we haven't had for years. Add RvP to the mix and we suddenly have a ton of different attacking options with hardly any nailed down roles.
I was really excited by the starting lineup tonight but you could tell it was going to be incredibly unbalanced - in this instance unfortunately, we didn't get the attacking performances we needed to see us through. Getting some CB's back will definitely help, but I think we will experience a few teething pains as Fergie shuffles the pack around until he can find the right balance.
Tonight our problems seemed to be Nani looking stuck out on the right, without finding that unpredictability needed from drifting into the channels, while we seemed to lack both any width on the left until late in the second half & also any sort of focal point up front. Welbeck and Rooney drifted quite aimlessly, resulting in the latter looking quite lost I think. It's a lack of intelligent movement you can get at the start of the season, especially when trying to move to a different system. I may not be completely happy with the midfield - like pretty much everyone else I think we could do with more of a presence in the centre - but it looks like we're going with what we've got. And I think there's a hell of a lot to be happy with and encouraged by.
I think the addition of Kagawa is huge, especially looking forward to Europe. We've really missed a player like him (to kind of take over from Giggs) and use the greater amount of time & space to unlock defences. I thought he and Rooney found each other out nicely quite a few times tonight, even if it was simple short passing. It's just fitting in the other pieces around them which might take a little time. The front players need to be comfortable with each other's movements & their own positions they're supposed to be taking up, for us to have any cutting edge. We had none of that tonight but we've got the players we need to do it. Carrick back in midfield with a great CB behind him will improve our stability. I think Kagawa and our other forwards will provide better defensive protection as the season progresses and they're more assured of their role. Hopefully we can even get something out of Fletcher too.
Cleverley I think is the wildcard in that midfield, potentially another big positive. He's got a way to go to play that sitting MC role or Kagawa's role effectively, but alongside Carrick I think he can be that transition midfielder we want Anderson to be. When Scholes and Carrick play together, we can have a problem with getting the ball forward quickly. Even with Rooney dropping deep, the attack can get too static and be marked out of the game too easily, so we're forced to slowly knock it wide. Cleverley's at his best for me collecting it and bringing it forward, he looks to just have a feel for the right short pass to make and the right space to move into. With Kagawa also playing between the opposition's defence and midfield & we have a much more dynamic side, capable of playing slick, attractive, penetrating football. We've the best of managers & too much talent in forward areas, intelligent in their movement and clinical in their execution, for it not to work out I think. It might just take some patience from fans as Fergie selects a few different teams and players adjust slightly to their roles.
I was really excited by the starting lineup tonight but you could tell it was going to be incredibly unbalanced - in this instance unfortunately, we didn't get the attacking performances we needed to see us through. Getting some CB's back will definitely help, but I think we will experience a few teething pains as Fergie shuffles the pack around until he can find the right balance.
Tonight our problems seemed to be Nani looking stuck out on the right, without finding that unpredictability needed from drifting into the channels, while we seemed to lack both any width on the left until late in the second half & also any sort of focal point up front. Welbeck and Rooney drifted quite aimlessly, resulting in the latter looking quite lost I think. It's a lack of intelligent movement you can get at the start of the season, especially when trying to move to a different system. I may not be completely happy with the midfield - like pretty much everyone else I think we could do with more of a presence in the centre - but it looks like we're going with what we've got. And I think there's a hell of a lot to be happy with and encouraged by.
I think the addition of Kagawa is huge, especially looking forward to Europe. We've really missed a player like him (to kind of take over from Giggs) and use the greater amount of time & space to unlock defences. I thought he and Rooney found each other out nicely quite a few times tonight, even if it was simple short passing. It's just fitting in the other pieces around them which might take a little time. The front players need to be comfortable with each other's movements & their own positions they're supposed to be taking up, for us to have any cutting edge. We had none of that tonight but we've got the players we need to do it. Carrick back in midfield with a great CB behind him will improve our stability. I think Kagawa and our other forwards will provide better defensive protection as the season progresses and they're more assured of their role. Hopefully we can even get something out of Fletcher too.
Cleverley I think is the wildcard in that midfield, potentially another big positive. He's got a way to go to play that sitting MC role or Kagawa's role effectively, but alongside Carrick I think he can be that transition midfielder we want Anderson to be. When Scholes and Carrick play together, we can have a problem with getting the ball forward quickly. Even with Rooney dropping deep, the attack can get too static and be marked out of the game too easily, so we're forced to slowly knock it wide. Cleverley's at his best for me collecting it and bringing it forward, he looks to just have a feel for the right short pass to make and the right space to move into. With Kagawa also playing between the opposition's defence and midfield & we have a much more dynamic side, capable of playing slick, attractive, penetrating football. We've the best of managers & too much talent in forward areas, intelligent in their movement and clinical in their execution, for it not to work out I think. It might just take some patience from fans as Fergie selects a few different teams and players adjust slightly to their roles.
I suppose I have the last half hour of the game seared into my mind, when he kept failing spectacularly to beat Hibbert and deliver a cross, and made several errors at the back (piss poor clearances or blindly turning into trouble)
Best response to this defeat yetThe problem with us crossing it these days is we slow play down that much beforehand that by the time we just about manage to squeeze a cross past their full back after the fourth time of trying the box is choc full of defenders. Then there seems to be a 50% chance the cross will be overhit which leaves the remaining 50% (of 25% because the rest don't get past the first defender remember) for some one to get on the end of, which will happen about 15% of the time. Then there's about a third chance that will be on target. Of that it's then probably about 40% likely it will go in. From these stats you can see that we're never going to bloody score. Ever.
I would agree that this is a time for perspective. While we did not play well, we also didnt play to badly.
All the teams who are challengers, liverpool, newcastle, spurs, arsenal, city and chelsea had mixed results.
So the injuries didnt help, its my view that we can only get better. I hope that RVP, plays alongside Rooney on Saturday.
All the teams who are challengers, liverpool, newcastle, spurs, arsenal, city and chelsea had mixed results.
So the injuries didnt help, its my view that we can only get better. I hope that RVP, plays alongside Rooney on Saturday.
just my thoughts, plenty of time, relax
About the best version of events I've heard about last night. Good post, and straight to the point.
I thought I'd seen it all on here, 1 game into the season and this place has gone mad, its a marathon not a sprint.
The problem with us crossing it these days is we slow play down that much beforehand that by the time we just about manage to squeeze a cross past their full back after the fourth time of trying the box is choc full of defenders. Then there seems to be a 50% chance the cross will be overhit which leaves the remaining 50% (of 25% because the rest don't get past the first defender remember) for some one to get on the end of, which will happen about 15% of the time. Then there's about a third chance that will be on target. Of that it's then probably about 40% likely it will go in. From these stats you can see that we're never going to bloody score. Ever.
Its funny because it is SO true!!I've been saying the same thing. Players having off days happen. That's a part of sport. But I don't get this ultra cautious snail paced style we've adopted. Why do we want to play so slowly that we have to play infront of teams all the time letting them a defensive counter to every sluggish thing we do.
And the end result of those passing moves that go nowhere seems to be just giving to a winger to put a cross/beat his man and put a cross in which seems completely self defeating given the ball could have been given to a winger to do that ages ago.
And it seems like part of the plan. Nani, who is among the best dribblers around, instead of taking on defenders, seemed to try and also be some sort of slow thinking (read dwelling) playmaker. Welbeck, the same. Everyone is taking extra touches, making extra passes that don't have any real purpose in winning a match of football. Only Cleverley and Kagawa did that. And no surprises, they were the best of the outfield players by far.
In fact I actually preferred how Everton played. Sure it was route one football but at least they played with urgency and purpose. We just sat around admiring sideways passes most of the game.
To be fair Everton defended their box deep and very well, made us look toothless.....of course Scouse Wig had a worldie against us for the second game on the spin....
eraly days of course..........
eraly days of course..........