I would describe Smalling as many things but slow wouldn't be one of them.
Pau Torres
- Thread starter Bebestation
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Smalling was very fast. Weird comparison.
Depends on the player, even after 5 kilometers of accelerating, Mertesacker wouldn't have overtaken a granny with a walker.
In general, if you are left wondering if a CB is slow or fast after watching them several times, that is a good thing. As a CB you should not put yourself in a situation where you have to rely on speed.
That being said, Torres look agile.
That being said, Torres look agile.
Smalling has never looked slow. Very clumsy and shaky at times, but not slow. But top speed doesn’t really matter at all, acceleration is much more important.
You think so? I think he looks passive, and overall just a bit average.
A taller, left footer Lindelof as others have pointed out. Not for me personally.
There's an obsession that Torres is slow, but I haven't seen him out paced in any of the games so far. What I saw was a player that, when they ran, forcing the player out to the wing and then incepted the ball. He has demonstrated that he's a great passer, and despite some people opinion, he can head the ball. He would be a great option at the right price.
Torres is a weak spain lindelof. Whoever recommended him to utd is probably the same scout who recommended lindelof. So should be fired. Not at all what Utd need in a partner for maguire. Avoid.
He didn’t look at all bad. Laporte was the one who looked dodgy
I think he looks very solid. He was good against us too but that was hard to judge because they had 11 men in the box but he’s been better than Laporte in this tournament so far.
I know you said 'in general' but that's not really something I would neccessarily praise or criticise. 'I'm not sure if he's fast or slow' should just be a simple observation, nothing more or less. I wouldn't elevate it as 'he must be good because he doesn't use speed'. It's the same as that dumb 'a defender who tackles has already made a mistake' quote.
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He's ok from what i've seen but i'm not hugely impressed either. He does seem similar to Lindelof, which is worrying. I'd rather we go for a pacey/strong defender. Basically a less reckless and more reliable version of Bailly to partner Maguire.
If he is our target, I hope he had that turn of pace and is playing well. I think people will be surprised by how easy it will be to replace Lindelof/the improvement on the team (in his respective position) once we get anyone half decent.
I haven't seen him play many times, I will admit that. However, not much about him strikes me as 'the answer.' I don't see the clear things in his game that make up for the flaws in Maguire's.
He's Lindelof 2.0. I just don't think he's the upgrade we're after, for the money he'd cost. I don't see what he offers that's much different? He's barely the leap forward I'd think we'd all want in a new CB. He'd be our 2nd best defender, but doesn't that say more about the massive drop off in quality after Maguire. I just think he's underwhelming. Signing no one is probably better than spending the money on Torres.
I think Torres looks decent, very good on the ball but overall, jsut decent and there are better options. Most importantly though, as yourself and many others have pointed out, he does seem very similar to Lindelof style wise, I think he is better, but doesnt seem the right partner for Maguire. Signing a better version of a player that doesnt really seem to fit shouldnt be the way for us to move forward
People are going overboard with the Lindelof comparisons, as if it's impossible for a player vaguely in the style of Lindelof to be an excellent defender or a good partner for Maguire. It's like dismissing any aggressive defenders as Bailly 2.0. and assuming they'll share all the same weaknesses. There isn't one correct style for a CB and Lindelof isn't so bad that he has forever ruined the very concept of that style of defender.
It's particularly odd as, given we opted for Lindelof over Smalling, there are obviously qualities Lindelof possesses that we want in our team. We don't suddenly not want any of those qualities anymore just because we're looking for an upgrade. The profile of the CB we're looking for isn't "as different from Lindelof as it's possible to be".
It's particularly odd as, given we opted for Lindelof over Smalling, there are obviously qualities Lindelof possesses that we want in our team. We don't suddenly not want any of those qualities anymore just because we're looking for an upgrade. The profile of the CB we're looking for isn't "as different from Lindelof as it's possible to be".
What qualities does Lindelof provide that Maguire doesn’t possess?
I don't get the question? I'm not arguing that Lindelof provides qualities that Maguire doesn't. Though I'm sure if you broke it down there'd be some things he's better at.
I'm arguing that a player can be stylistically similar to Lindelof while also a) having fewer weaknesses, b) having more strengths, c) being a better defender and d) being a good partner for Maguire because of those key improvements.
If Lindelof was sufficiently faster, better in the air and generally a better defender then he would be a fine partner for Maguire, despite literally being Lindelof 2.0. Because what makes him a poor partner for Maguire are his weaknesses, not everything about the way he plays.
Torres might not be the right guy for us. But the notion that being stylistically similar to Lindelof (by which I guess we mean a less aggressive, space-covering, ball-playing style defender) means a player couldn't be is silly. A lot of superb defenders have fit into that more passive, space-covering, ball-playing mould while still being a lot better than Lindelof. It's not like he's the alpha example of that less-aggressive style of defender.
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what? back in the day smalling was absolutely rapid, he’s slowed down a fair bit now though.
Are Lindelof and Tuanzebe also fast? Because they both reached similar top speeds. Even feckin Phil Jones reached it.
These top speed charts are meaningless because players only contain them for a few ms.
I also wish to point out that Gary Pallister had the highest top speed in a team that included Giggs and Kanchelskis . But his accelleration was nowhere near Kanchelskis
I haven't seen him enough to gauge how quick he is over the first few yards (which is more important than top speed in football imo) But having recovery pace is important for those coaches who look to sacrifice defensive stability for goals in the quest to play a more proactive brand of football with a higher backline with the CBs defending the wide space solo if needs be against pacy attackers with plenty of space to run in behind.
But it's not just pace that's important, but also having a high football IQ to understand the tactical plan both offensively and defensively.
But it's not just pace that's important, but also having a high football IQ to understand the tactical plan both offensively and defensively.
Well, to use your example, if Lindelof was faster, better in the air, a better defender, with less weaknesses and more strengths, as you say, I doubt anyone would want a new CB.
When people say Torres is too similar to Lindelof, I take that to mean that he has too many of those same weaknesses for it to be a worthwhile purchase. I don’t think they have a problem with the ‘style’ of defender he is.
Using your definition of that style, arguably Rio was that kind of defender. Nobody would be complaining if we had him!
Indeed.
I suppose what I'm objecting to is people dismissing Torres as "Lindelof 2.0" or "too similar to Lindelof" rather than pointing to whatever weakness they specifically have a problem with. Because you could be very similar to Lindelof and not have that given weakness, or be able to compensate for it with other strengths.
Or posters ignoring the fact that we actually don't want a player who is completely dissimilar to Lindelof, because the qualities that saw him picked over Smalling are still priorities for the team, just as they were then. Lindelof not being good enough hasn't made ability on the ball any less important to the team. Pau Torres (or anyone else) being better than Lindelof on the ball would still improve the team in a key area, even if it isn't one of Lindelof's main weaknesses.
If we were looking at a young Gerard Pique right now he would be dismissed as "Lindelof 2.0". But that description wouldn't capture how much he'd improve our defence over Lindelof, or in itself be a reason not to sign him. People are just viewing our CB situation through a rather negative Lindelof-shaped prism atm.
I think you have perfectly summed up the way some of the posters are perceiving Torres on the caf.
United should be all over him. Varane would either stay at Madrid or go to PSG. Torres is the most refined, comfortable with the ball, left footed CB available at the right price and right age. He is also very good in the air and has a decent header. It can't get better than this.
He'll look awful here, coming from a defensive setup
The stats would suggest he isn't all that good in the air, though in the games I've seen it doesn't seem to be a particular weakness. Even in the headers he technically loses his lanky, 6ft 4ish presence tends to deny clean contact. He's certainly a noticeably bigger CB than Lindelof.
In terms of weaknesses I'd be more wary of how he copes with sharp changes of movement in near quarters and whether he gets caught flat-footed or allows players to get in front of him sometimes. That's where I've sometimes thought he was a bit too passive/casual.
I'm mostly basing this off games for Spain though and that makes it tricky to judge him given the very specific way they play.
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I loved his composure in semi final vs Arsenal. That is where I watched him closely and offcourse in the final vs United. He did fairly well against two very decent EPL sides and never for a second looked slow or loosing his markers.
Many people who want a new CB want someone who steps up high and win back the ball. Who gets in to duels. Not someone like Lindeof who is better at covering the space behind him and Maguire.
I think a bit of Lindelofs problem is that he is not that good at that either. Looks alot better in a lower block.
Lindelof's issue is that he's skinnier than my morning dick and he tends to avoid contact and give space, which is kind of criminal in today's football.
On topic, Torres is not much of an improvement on Lindelof.
I would say he’s been very good at covering space this season. That’s not how we have conceded. He’s been good in many of matches against the top teams in the league where we played lower def nice line, but his best matches were against Milan and Granada imo where we played a high line.
Still stick to the one I said I would like 2 years ago.......Milenkovic.....the new Vidic.
I don't thinks he's that much of an improvement on Lindelof considering how much we'd have to fork out for him.
Not a good sign when you're struggling to pick out the good parts of his game. Ok he's 'calm' on the ball but shouldn't he be exceptional in a particular area if we are willing to shift Maguire to the right side of defence to accommodate him?
Not a good sign when you're struggling to pick out the good parts of his game. Ok he's 'calm' on the ball but shouldn't he be exceptional in a particular area if we are willing to shift Maguire to the right side of defence to accommodate him?
He's a slightly more stylish Lindelof, we need an aggressive quick player next to Maguire. Varane would be perfect. Those two would be Dias and Stones on steroids. Henderson would in turn be more confident, our midfield would be too knowing what's behind them and AWB can focus on improving his offensive game. The impact of a solid CB pairing will be seen throughout the side.
You're right about the speed charts not being worth much as they don't translate well to in game, but Smalling wasn't the best comparison to make. He held his own speed wise against players like Mbappe regularly.
He's ridiculously similar to Lindelof. 
I dont remember those games that well, but in general we dont play with a high line. And I think Lindelof and Maguire is part of the reason.
Maybe we did play a higher line against Milan and Granada as neither team has that much pace?