Pau Torres

[sullydnl]

I don't thinks he's that much of an improvement on Lindelof considering how much we'd have to fork out for him.

Not a good sign when you're struggling to pick out the good parts of his game. Ok he's 'calm' on the ball but shouldn't he be exceptional in a particular area if we are willing to shift Maguire to the right side of defence to accommodate him?

Who is struggling to pick out good parts of his game? His ability on the ball is excellent. And he reads the game very well too. These are things you'll see said in pretty much any article, report or analysis of him. It's not difficult to see what he's good at at all, whether he's who we want here or not.

The gap between the general opinion of Torres in football (among the most coveted CBs in Europe who will inevitably end up at a European giant) and here (Victor Lindelof's slightly taller cousin) is bizarre. A few seasons of watching Lindelof has poisoned your minds, because that very much isn't a comparison other people are making. Rather you might more commonly see him compared to someone like Laporte, who would walk into our team and whose name carries fewer negative connotations.

 

[A-man]

I dont remember those games that well, but in general we dont play with a high line. And I think Lindelof and Maguire is part of the reason.

Maybe we did play a higher line against Milan and Granada as neither team has that much pace?

The games we didn’t play a high line, I’m not sure it was because of the CBs. Our midfield is really not set for a high line and also they lose possession to often imo. We also seem to create more goal scoring opportunities when game is spread out over the pitch.

Not sure what matches we lost that we had won if we had played a higher line? Do you have some examples?

 

[cyberman]

I dont remember those games that well, but in general we dont play with a high line. And I think Lindelof and Maguire is part of the reason.

Maybe we did play a higher line against Milan and Granada as neither team has that much pace?

Played high for most of the season. City away we pressed them right up in their own half.
Hell we had to play higher after falling behind so many times.

 

[MadDogg]

Are Lindelof and Tuanzebe also fast? Because they both reached similar top speeds. Even feckin Phil Jones reached it.
These top speed charts are meaningless because players only contain them for a few ms.

Smalling was far faster than Lindelof and Jones. Like pretty much anybody of his size his first 2-3 steps were a little slower if he had to turn 180 degrees and get going, but it rarely cost us because he was otherwise so fast he quickly caught back up. There's not many centre backs out there faster than Smalling was at his peak (he did seem to start slowing down a bit in his last season with us though). Calling him 'slow as feck' is weird to say the least.

 

[andersj]

Not sure what matches we lost that we had won if we had played a higher line? Do you have some examples?

I would probably have to go through quite a few games, but I think the way he defended versus Townsend (second game of the season?) on their first goal is trademark Lindelof. The goal is not just his fault, but its not very good defending from him either and I doubt Townsend would get to make that cross versus a better defender.

Same for Bergweijns goal against us last year. Not just Lindelofs fault, but a defender like Bailly (who is not as good as Lindelof in general) would probably have been there for that shot (we have actually seen Bailly make last ditch-tackles in similar situations).

In general, I dont think Lindelof has the agility or recovery pace to be the one who «protect» the space behind Maguire.

 

[A-man]

I would probably have to go through quite a few games, but I think the way he defended versus Townsend (second game of the season?) on their first goal is trademark Lindelof. The goal is not just his fault, but its not very good defending from him either and I doubt Townsend would get to make that cross versus a better defender.

Same for Bergweijns goal against us last year. Not just Lindelofs fault, but a defender like Bailly (who is not as good as Lindelof in general) would probably have been there for that shot (we have actually seen Bailly make last ditch-tackles in similar situations).

In general, I dont think Lindelof has the agility or recovery pace to be the one who «protect» the space behind Maguire.

Its always easy to say that “another defender would have done better”. It I can find plenty of goals where Maguire, Varane and probably also Torres make their teams concede goals in ways that Lindelof would have prevented.

I don’t think speed could cover for Maguire and at the same time push for a high line. That’s unrealistic. To cover you need anticipation, positioning, and good decision making. That’s why speedy Tuanzebe struggled badly to cover even when facing a slow guy like Demba Ba. All together I think people have unrealistic expectations for a new CB. Harry and Lindelof conceded 12 goals in open play together this season. It will be hard to improve that more than marginally. It will be hard for a new CB to improve our poor setpieces. It will be hard for a new CB to magically transform the team to play a higher line by both pushing high and winning back the ball early, and also cover for both AWB and Maguire at the same time. It will be very hard for a new CB to do all those things. Yet it seems to be what people expect a CB to do.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Its always easy to say that “another defender would have done better”. It I can find plenty of goals where Maguire, Varane and probably also Torres make their teams concede goals in ways that Lindelof would have prevented.

Lindelof has more than just one and two weaknesses. His concertation and mentality as defender are part of his weakness. The goals we conceded vs Sevilla last season and vs Villareal this season shows the lack of concentration he had in big and important occasion especially when the pressure on him. Bottler. In the league, you can conceded one goal and score two goals against the lesser teams. However, in final or semi final, it's very important not to make mistakes to conceded and you can see it from Lindelof. When the pressure is on him, he couldn't handle it.

Varane is UCL, La Liga and World Cup winners. Pau Torres is a Spanish international regular for years and just won his Europa League trophy against us. Kounde won EL trophy and beat us and Inter Milan. Any defenders who are proven in this type of situation would have done better than the bottler.

 

[andersj]

All together I think people have unrealistic expectations for a new CB. Harry and Lindelof conceded 12 goals in open play together this season. It will be hard to improve that more than marginally. It will be hard for a new CB to improve our poor setpieces. It will be hard for a new CB to magically transform the team to play a higher line by both pushing high and winning back the ball early, and also cover for both AWB and Maguire at the same time. It will be very hard for a new CB to do all those things. Yet it seems to be what people expect a CB to do.

I did not expect you to agree. Your stance on here is similar to Ekekes on Smalling a few years ago. It is as if Rio in his prime, or van Dijk, would be a marginal improvement on Lindelof. I do not see it that way. I think there is quite a few defenders that would not only improve our defence, but would let us play even better attacking football. Lindelof biggest strenght is that he is decent at everything. His biggest weakness? Probably that he is not great at anything.

And as I am saying that, I dont think Lindelof is a poor defender. He was a significant step up from Rojo, Smalling and Jones. And he is better than Bailly. But in my opinion, Berg was a good defender too. But brining in Stam made a huge difference.

 

[A-man]

Lindelof has more than just one and two weaknesses. His concertation and mentality as defender are part of his weakness. The goals we conceded vs Sevilla last season and vs Villareal this season shows the lack of concentration he had in big and important occasion especially when the pressure on him. Bottler. In the league, you can conceded one goal and score two goals against the lesser teams. However, in final or semi final, it's very important not to make mistakes to conceded and you can see it from Lindelof. When the pressure is on him, he couldn't handle it.

Varane is UCL, La Liga and World Cup winners. Pau Torres is a Spanish international regular for years and just won his Europa League trophy against us. Kounde won EL trophy and beat us and Inter Milan. Any defenders who are proven in this type of situation would have done better than the bottler.

In a final you also need to score more than one goal in 120 minutes if you want to win, cannot 100% rely on defence keeping clean sheets.

Varane had his famous mistakes that finished Real Madrid’s CL less than a year ago so very strange comparison from your side.

 

[A-man]

I did not expect you to agree. Your stance on here is similar to Ekekes on Smalling a few years ago. It is as if Rio in his prime, or van Dijk, would be a marginal improvement on Lindelof. I do not see it that way. I think there is quite a few defenders that would not only improve our defence, but would let us play even better attacking football. Lindelof biggest strenght is that he is decent at everything. His biggest weakness? Probably that he is not great at anything.

And as I am saying that, I dont think Lindelof is a poor defender. He was a significant step up from Rojo, Smalling and Jones. And he is better than Bailly. But in my opinion, Berg was a good defender too. But brining in Stam made a huge difference.

You picked two goals over two season and claimed other defenders would have done better, what’s to agree with that? It’s 100% hypothetical. Other defenders might have screwed up 4 times in the same match, what do we know?

But I think it’ll be hard to find a defender who is good at all those things and will solve all those issues.

 

[andersj]

But I think it’ll be hard to find a defender who is good at all those things and will solve all those issues.

Probably will. But it should not be hard to agree that a team that want to challenge for a title needs to be world class. Lindelof is not, and we could need an upgrade. I think there is only a little handful of people that will disagree with that.

And I have very little interest of doing the same silly discussion with you that a few people in here have done. I could have spent a few hours, found more examples, but for what? You have made up your mind on the subject. That is clear.

Even if we bring in Torres or Kounde next year, and look a lot better, I’m pretty sure you would try to deny that replacing Lindelof had anything to do with it. Just like another poster in here did when Smalling left for Rome.

 

[sullydnl]

Many people who want a new CB want someone who steps up high and win back the ball. Who gets in to duels. Not someone like Lindeof who is better at covering the space behind him and Maguire.

They might want that but it doesn't mean it's what the team needs.

Maguire is already a very active CB who attacks things. The more natural partner for him (imo) would be someone who covers space, like Lindelof. It would just ideally be someone who is better in the air, faster, stronger, more decisive in key moments, etc. Being better on the ball would be a bonus too as despite being a team who play out from the back we're not always particularly brilliant at it.

If we go by everything Redcafe wants from a defender then they'd be some superhuman combination of Ferdinand and Vidic. It's not realistic.

 

[Bubz27]

He's a slightly more stylish Lindelof, we need an aggressive quick player next to Maguire. Varane would be perfect. Those two would be Dias and Stones on steroids. Henderson would in turn be more confident, our midfield would be too knowing what's behind them and AWB can focus on improving his offensive game. The impact of a solid CB pairing will be seen throughout the side.

Aggressive isn't a word I'd use to describe Varane.

 

[A-man]

Probably will. But it should not be hard to agree that a team that want to challenge for a title needs to be world class. Lindelof is not, and we could need an upgrade. I think there is only a little handful of people that will disagree with that.

And I have very little interest of doing the same silly discussion with you that a few people in here have done. I could have spent a few hours, found more examples, but for what? You have made up your mind on the subject. That is clear.

Even if we bring in Torres or Kounde next year, and look a lot better, I’m pretty sure you would try to deny that replacing Lindelof had anything to do with it. Just like another poster in here did when Smalling left for Rome.

You really don’t have to write to me if you don’t want to. You started to address me, I replied.

 

[A-man]

They might want that but it doesn't mean it's what the team needs.

Maguire is already a very active CB who attacks things. The more natural partner for him (imo) would be someone who covers space, like Lindelof. It would just ideally be someone who is better in the air, faster, stronger, more decisive in key moments, etc. Being better on the ball would be a bonus too as despite being a team who play out from the back we're not always particularly brilliant at it.

If we go by everything Redcafe wants from a defender then they'd be some superhuman combination of Ferdinand and Vidic. It's not realistic.

That’s why I think people have unrealistic expectations. It’s impossible to watch every player day in, day out. The knowledge we have on players are often from watching a handful of games combined with highlight material and stats.

 

[sullydnl]

When people say "we need someone more aggressive", I assume they just mean more aggressive than Lindelof or Torres, which is fair enough.

Because someone like Varane (who might be the obvious top target) isn't a particularly aggressive defender in general terms.

And it's not like we're looking for someone to be the Vidic to Maguire's Ferdinand. If anything it's the other way around.

 

[andersj]

You really don’t have to write to me if you don’t want to. You started to address me, I replied.

I dont have any problem writing to you or discussing with you. But the type of discussion you do once a week where you ask someone to bring examples and then keep going in circles? Sorry, dont really see the point. I gave you two examples from the top of my head. Your reply reminded me of what a waste of time these discussions can be…

You think Lindelof if fast and agile? Fine! I dont! And I think it is an issue for him sometimes.

 

[A-man]

I dont have any problem writing to you or discussing with you. But the type of discussion you do once a week where you ask someone to bring examples and then keep going in circles? Sorry, dont really see the point. I gave you two examples. Your reply reminded me of what a waste of time these discussions can be…

If you see one thing and I don’t see it, then examples are a good way to show what you mean. If your point is true it is normally easy to find examples. I simply don’t see that Lindelof -Maguire is the reason we played a lower line in some matches. Just because you and some other people repeat that over and over doesn’t make me change my mind about that.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

In a final you also need to score more than one goal in 120 minutes if you want to win, cannot 100% rely on defence keeping clean sheets.

Varane had his famous mistakes that finished Real Madrid’s CL less than a year ago so very strange comparison from your side.

That mistake means nothing in my post if he has won many major trophies. It reflects to the fact he done much more positive things in big occasion than his mistake in big occasion. On the other hand Lindelof bottled it everytime. Varane would done better than a bottler, not even need to have a debate. France went to final World Cup 2018 by beating Belgium 1-0 the big contender. Based on our semi finals and final recently, I can see France would conceded with the current Lindelof as France CB in that semi final.

 

[andersj]

If your point is true it is normally easy to find examples.

And it was! From the top of my head! Not against Mbappe or Henry in their prime either.

Going by your discussion with others, you will probably find a way to argue that Lindelof was great in these situations and did nothing wrong. That is fine too. It is okey to disagree.

But I just dont see any point in spending hours on these type of discussions when your mind is made.

 

[A-man]

And it was! From the top of my head! Not against Mbappe or Henry in their prime either.

Going by your discussion with others, you will probably find a way to argue that Lindelof was great in these situations and did nothing wrong. That is fine too. It is okey to disagree.

But I just dont see any point in spending hours on these type of discussions when your mind is made.

You seem to be spending quite a lot of time telling me how much I’ve discussed things with other people and you come back to that on every post. Don’t see how that will move anything forward and don’t really feel it gives me anything, so I’m out.

 

[A-man]

That mistake means nothing in my post if he has won many major trophies. It reflects to the fact he done much more positive things in big occasion than his mistake in big occasion. On the other hand Lindelof bottled it everytime. Varane would done better than a bottler, not even need to have a debate. France went to final World Cup 2018 by beating Belgium 1-0 the big contender. Based on our semi finals and final recently, I can see France would conceded with the current Lindelof as France CB in that semi final.

Ok if you say so.

 

[Dazzmondo]

Thought it would be better to push this thread up since Torres is clearly the cb we're going to sign despite people wanting to buy into the Varane story. For what it's worth I think people on this thread are overly critical of Torres. Those talking about his lack of pace are completely wrong, he's actually very fast. He's excellent on the ball and is great at long range passing (probably the best of any of the cbs we've been linked with in this regard). He has good positioning and is normally reliable for making tackles at the right time. My concerns are with his lack of strength. Despite being tall he is quite lightweight (possibly one of the reasons he is quite quick) and he is also very poor in the air. I don't know how a cb that's 6'4 can lose as many aerial duels as he does, especially in La Liga which is a lot less physical than the Prem and this is what concerns me most about him, since Lindelof's lack of physicality is probably his biggest weakness too. I think Torres is a better cb than Lindelof but he definitely has some flaws. He wouldn't have been my 1st choice for a cb if we can't get Varane but he's still definitely one of the better cb options that's realistically available.

 

[Berbasbullet]

What makes you think we’re signing him?

 

[AjaxCunian]

When people say "we need someone more aggressive", I assume they just mean more aggressive than Lindelof or Torres, which is fair enough.

Because someone like Varane (who might be the obvious top target) isn't a particularly aggressive defender in general terms.

And it's not like we're looking for someone to be the Vidic to Maguire's Ferdinand. If anything it's the other way around.

You think Maguire is more a Vidic than Ferdinand in terms of style?

 

[Dazzmondo]

What makes you think we’re signing him?

The links have been consistent for a long time with loads of reputable reporters like Fabrizio mentioning our interest. Varane was clearly our 1st choice on the assumption he might genuinely leave, but Torres has consistently been positioned as the backup target in these stories. The fact that Torres isn't a big name like a Varane or even a Kounde makes this even more clear imo because his name isn't one that would generate clicks, so there's not much motivation for reporters to invent our interest. It should have become quite clear that Varane won't be leaving as soon as Ramos left. I assume Utd have actually realised this by now and are just waiting until the end of the Euros (or at least the end of Torres' involvement in the Euros) to make an offer.

 

[Berbasbullet]

The links have been consistent for a long time with loads of reputable reporters like Fabrizio mentioning our interest. Varane was clearly our 1st choice on the assumption he might genuinely leave, but Torres has consistently been positioned as the backup target in these stories. The fact that Torres isn't a big name like a Varane or even a Kounde makes this even more clear imo because his name isn't one that would generate clicks, so there's not much motivation for reporters to invent our interest. It should have become quite clear that Varane won't be leaving as soon as Ramos left. I assume Utd have actually realised this by now and are just waiting until the end of the Euros (or at least the end of Torres' involvement in the Euros) to make an offer.

I see you seem very confident we will sign him. Fair enough.

 

[RkkMan]

The links have been consistent for a long time with loads of reputable reporters like Fabrizio mentioning our interest. Varane was clearly our 1st choice on the assumption he might genuinely leave, but Torres has consistently been positioned as the backup target in these stories. The fact that Torres isn't a big name like a Varane or even a Kounde makes this even more clear imo because his name isn't one that would generate clicks, so there's not much motivation for reporters to invent our interest. It should have become quite clear that Varane won't be leaving as soon as Ramos left. I assume Utd have actually realised this by now and are just waiting until the end of the Euros (or at least the end of Torres' involvement in the Euros) to make an offer.

Until Madrid actually puts an offer on the table for Varane which he'll accept(something they've not done for almost a year) there's still every chance he leaves. And Pau Torres for all this thing of being an easy target has a release clause of €65m Euros which is very high for a player like him that Villarreal won't compromise on.

 

[Dazzmondo]

Until Madrid actually puts an offer on the table for Varane which he'll accept(something they've not done for almost a year) there's still every chance he leaves. And Pau Torres for all this thing of being an easy target has a release clause of €65m Euros which is very high for a player like him that Villarreal won't compromise on.

Is there anything to suggest they won't actually compromise on this? The latest I heard was that they were actually willing to sell for less. Pretty sure there was an article just yesterday about it.

Every player in Spain is required to have a release clause so it doesn't actually have to mean anything. They set it high so their best players can't be taken away for below their value, so it will always be made with the intention of overvaluing their player. Spanish clubs often sell players for below their release clause.

 

[sullydnl]

You think Maguire is more a Vidic than Ferdinand in terms of style?

Relative to the conversation we're having around our CBs, certainly. He's a pro-active, aerially dominant CB who engages his opponents higher up the pitch. What we're crying out for isn't someone who is aerially superior to or more aggressive in engaging opponents than Maguire, which would be a Vidic-type partner.

We still need someone who performs the more reactive, covering role that Lindelof does beside him. They just need to be better than Lindelof. That means being better at the actual covering role they're there to perform but also being more resilient physically. Because Maguire being so dominant aerially means his partner will be the one who is targeted in that regard. So while they don't need to be as physically dominant as Maguire, they also shouldn't be as easy to bully as Lindelof. In other words a Ferdinand to Maguire's Vidic, reading the game and covering while Maguire attacks the ball but without being fragile when they need to be physical either.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Relative to the conversation we're having around our CBs, certainly. He's a pro-active, aerially dominant CB who engages his opponents higher up the pitch. What we're crying out for isn't someone who is aerially superior to or more aggressive in engaging opponents than Maguire, which would be a Vidic-type partner.

We still need someone who performs the more reactive, covering role that Lindelof does beside him. They just need to be better than Lindelof. That means being better at the actual covering role they're there to perform but also being more resilient physically. Because Maguire being so dominant aerially means his partner will be the one who is targeted in that regard. So while they don't need to be as physically dominant as Maguire, they also shouldn't be as easy to bully as Lindelof. In other words a Ferdinand to Maguire's Vidic, reading the game and covering while Maguire attacks the ball but without being fragile when they need to be physical either.

Some very fair points, I think mainly in agression, aerial dominance and defending high up the pitch, Maguire more resembles Vidic. But when it comes to speed, his ball playing abilities he resembles Ferdinand more. Somehow he is kind of the best of both minus pace/agility. Don't think his tackling is superb either, I'd like his partner to be better 1 vs 1 vs trickier players.

 

[Blood Mage]

I just don't think he's good enough, a marginal upgrade on Lindelof at best. Would be underwhelming to get him after being linked with Varane.

 

[RkkMan]

Is there anything to suggest they won't actually compromise on this? The latest I heard was that they were actually willing to sell for less. Pretty sure there was an article just yesterday about it.

Every player in Spain is required to have a release clause so it doesn't actually have to mean anything. They set it high so their best players can't be taken away for below their value, so it will always be made with the intention of overvaluing their player. Spanish clubs often sell players for below their release clause.

There was something I read today from Spain that said they want the full cash with no player exchange and I don't think it's outlandish. He's their best and most promising defender that's also a starter for his country. The player is also happy in Spain. Getting CL football has lessened any pressure from them to sell so it's likely we have to pay everything

 

[AjaxCunian]

One thing with the Lindelof criticism is that we have seen how good Maguire and Lindelof can be together when Lindelof isn't being way too weak.

If Pau Torres is a left-footed, faster, stronger, taller and harder version of Lindelof that rarely gets bullied, what exactly is the problem?

Sure it would be great if he had the aerial ability of Varane and strength/explosiveness of Kounde but I don't think we can buy Virgil van Dijk unfortunately.

 

[A-man]

One thing with the Lindelof criticism is that we have seen how good Maguire and Lindelof can be together when Lindelof isn't being way too weak.

If Pau Torres is a left-footed, faster, stronger, taller and harder version of Lindelof that rarely gets bullied, what exactly is the problem?

Sure it would be great if he had the aerial ability of Varane and strength/explosiveness of Kounde but I don't think we can buy Virgil van Dijk unfortunately.

How can you be so sure Torrres isn’t weaker ?Compared to Lindelof, Torres is taller, but more skinny (80 kg is not much for 191 cm). Goes in to slightly less duels, wins less aerials (almost least in la liga), looks slightly better on the ball. Both have similar defensive style. Varane would walk straight in to the starting xi, not so sure about Torres.

 

[Dazzmondo]

There was something I read today from Spain that said they want the full cash with no player exchange and I don't think it's outlandish. He's their best and most promising defender that's also a starter for his country. The player is also happy in Spain. Getting CL football has lessened any pressure from them to sell so it's likely we have to pay everything

Fair enough. Haven't seen anything suggesting that yet but I'll take your word for it. Even €65m (£55m) isn't that crazy considering his age tbh. If he is actually as good as the cb we need should be, the fee would be reasonable imo. I wouldn't be freaking out if we spent €65m on Varane for example. Varane's proven to be better for longer obviously but if we are getting Torres off the assumption he can reach a similar level it's about the amount you'd expect. I still think we could get him for below €65m personally.

 

[Van Piorsing]

One thing with the Lindelof criticism is that we have seen how good Maguire and Lindelof can be together when Lindelof isn't being way too weak.

If Pau Torres is a left-footed, faster, stronger, taller and harder version of Lindelof that rarely gets bullied, what exactly is the problem?

Sure it would be great if he had the aerial ability of Varane and strength/explosiveness of Kounde but I don't think we can buy Virgil van Dijk unfortunately.

Think soon as Varane will sign new contract or head straight to PSG, people will start appreciating Torres more.

United are bit lucky to have a wide choice of defenders to sign. I'll be surprised if we won't end up with one of mentioned.

 

[A-man]

Fair enough. Haven't seen anything suggesting that yet but I'll take your word for it. Even €65m (£55m) isn't that crazy considering his age tbh. If he is actually as good as the cb we need should be, the fee would be reasonable imo. I wouldn't be freaking out if we spent €65m on Varane for example. Varane's proven to be better for longer obviously but if we are getting Torres off the assumption he can reach a similar level it's about the amount you'd expect. I still think we could get him for below €65m personally.

The sum is roughly what Fred cost. Torres would probably get half the salary compared to Varane, so the overall cost would be lower. And on top of that, he would be more valuable to sell when the contract is close to his end. But of course a bigger risk ability wise.

 

[AjaxCunian]

How can you be so sure Torrres isn’t weaker ?Compared to Lindelof, Torres is taller, but more skinny (80 kg is not much for 191 cm). Goes in to slightly less duels, wins less aerials (almost least in la liga), looks slightly better on the ball. Both have similar defensive style. Varane would walk straight in to the starting xi, not so sure about Torres.

I'm not, that's why I said if. From what Ive seen Torres gets bullied far less, but that's not a good measure.

 

[Dazzmondo]

The sum is roughly what Fred cost. Torres would probably get half the salary compared to Varane, so the overall cost would be lower. And on top of that, he would be more valuable to sell when the contract is close to his end. But of course a bigger risk ability wise.

I would agree with all of that and personally I'd be much more open to us spending that sum on Torres than I was when I saw the amount we were spending on Fred.