Penny-Pinching: A Ridiculous Argument

Lentwood

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I'm getting fed-up of reading nonsense about the club's current activity in the transfer market being somehow related to cost-cutting or 'penny-pinching'.

Let's just get one thing clear before I start - the club is currently in the state it is in BECAUSE of the Glazers. This is fact. I don't even think it's a debate anymore. They leveraged the club with debt, cut-costs between 2005-2010 and appointed non-footballing men like Woodward to run the club.

I also want to make clear that I have previously criticised the Glazers spending. Their frugality between 2005-2010, caused directly by high-interest loans which needed to be repaid, cost the club it's place at the top table of European football and to a large extent, we've been trying to catch-up ever since.

However, to say that the transfer activity in the last window was somehow a cost-cutting exercise (or even their activity post-SAF) really does get me wound up. I'm sick of hearing that phrase. It's all over Twitter and my Utd-supporting mates are constantly parroting this nonsense in every single conversation about the club.

First of all, it makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. If your a business owner and you've got a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't sell that goose for it's meat or starve it trying to save money on corn. Yes, the Glazers and Woodward are/have been incompetent but they're clearly not doing this deliberately and we're clearly not in the state we're in because of lack of investment* in players.

*Yes investment is a valid term to use before some moron pipes up with 'they haven't invested it's our money'. Valid point - the Glazers haven't invested any money from their personal assets in the club. Invalid point - 'the Glazers haven't invested any money in transfers/players'.

Second of all, I think Utd fans really need to re-set their expectations on what they think an acceptable amount to spend is every Summer. I've pointed out elsewhere that when it comes to winning titles and major European trophies, we have probably fallen behind the likes of PSG and Manchester City in the spending stakes. However, there are very few clubs in world football who have spent more than us over the last 7 years, if any (including wages). It shouldn't be necessary to spend £200m every Summer to have a squad capable of challenging. It's also important to talk about wages because, again as I've previously stated, Utd have always targeted a wage/turnover ratio of about 50%. We were right on the threshold of this after Jose's tenure and we had virtually nothing to show for it! Therefore, if we want new players in, we have to get players out. This is just good governance. I'm sorry, I want the club to spend a billion every window - providing we can do so in a financially sustainable way - but we CAN'T.

Furthermore, I would be very interested to know what the average Utd fan thinks our 'profits' are at the end of every season. Last season, we actually made a £50m loss (granted we were paying off/restructuring tax payments) but we can't afford to spend £200m every Summer. It's just a fact. If your a fan of Utd and you wanted the club to spend another £100m last Summer (probably gets you one top player), you're advocating risking the clubs financial stability.

Again, I'm sorry if you're looking across town with jealously at the rich kids in blue but they're not a business, they're a toy/PR vehicle for a very, very rich NATION. Also, this will stop now, they've pushed the limits of FFP as far as they will go and will now have to increase revenues to spend more. Something they are massively struggling to do after the initial sharp increase that comes with going from being a Championship-sized club to being a successful Global brand. They are now going to have to be run in a financially stable way and they won't be spending £200m+ very often again, if ever.

Thirdly, the question I keep asking is 'if it's all about penny-pinching, why not sell Rashford, Martial or Pogba last Summer?'. The Glazers, as bad as they have been, have never sold a player who wanted to stay/the club wanted to keep. Ronaldo left because SAF promised him he could go, not because the Glazers forced a sale. Name me one player we've wanted to keep they've forced a manager to sell? I can't think of one. If it's about quick-wins, why didn't they force out Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic and why now do they supposedly let 6/7 players go to 'cut-costs' when they could make all that cash back with the sale of one player? In fact, if I remember rightly, Jose wanted to SELL Martial and the Glazers said 'No'!!!

Finally, I'm sick of this 'why didn't we replace Player X' nonsense....again, I'm sorry if most of your experience of transfers comes from Football Manager 2019 but we were never going to buy eight in one window, and nor should we. I guarantee that had we done this, four at least would have flopped and we'd have been talking about more deadwood to offload in 18-months time. Far better to sign two 'banker' players for big money every window, at the right age, than buy hordes of sh**e and hope some of it comes good! I see very few players who went in the Summer window who were attainable AND desirable so I'm happy to accept it's going to take time! Build with players like Maguire and AWB until we're in a position to attract the De Ligt's, the De Jong's and the Joao Felix's of the next Summer windows.

So let's just calm down a bit and get our facts right, otherwise, we just look like idiots when we're phoning into TalkSport banging on about 'saving money' and 'not spending'. See summary below;

- The Glazers have significantly harmed Manchester Utd
- Spending was curtailed between 2005-2010 because we had high-interest PIK loans to repay

However, post-SAF

- The club/the Glazers have spend a s**t tonne on transfers and wages
- The club sold players in the Summer who were deemed not good enough to take the club forward, as decided by THE MANAGER....I have no issue with this
- Again in the Summer, we spent £50m on a teenage RB and £80m on a CB....I really fail to see how this tallies with 'cost-cutting'. Cost-cutting is selling Lukaku and buying nobody.

So my point is, it's perfectly possible to believe the Glazers HAVE harmed the club immeasurably but still NOT trot out this nonsense about 'penny-pinching' and Wooward 'pulling the wool over our eyes'. We spend huge amounts of money, without risking ourselves financially, but we make TERRIBLE decisions, or did make until this Summer just gone.

Let's not strangle this new start in it's crib because we can't see past one Summer or one game. Let the re-build take it's course because every time we tear up a plan and start again, we set ourselves back 3/4 years
 

Fosu-Mens

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Overall a summative and good post that should be understandable for most. Hopefully, this helps with discussion regarding the Glazers and that fans can find some common ground.

- The Glazers have significantly harmed Manchester Utd
- Spending was curtailed between 2005-2010 because we had high-interest PIK loans to repay

However, post-SAF

- The club/the Glazers have spend a s**t tonne on transfers and wages
- The club sold players in the Summer who were deemed not good enough to take the club forward, as decided by THE MANAGER....I have no issue with this
- Again in the Summer, we spent £50m on a teenage RB and £80m on a CB....I really fail to see how this tallies with 'cost-cutting'. Cost-cutting is selling Lukaku and buying nobody.
No arguing against that.

We spend huge amounts of money, without risking ourselves financially, but we make TERRIBLE decisions, or did make until this Summer just gone.
James is a good transfer based on price and risk. Wan Bissaka will be IF he improves his attacking performance and ability on the ball. I agree more with Van der Vaart regarding Maguire than with those saying he is class.

Let's not strangle this new start in it's crib because we can't see past one Summer or one game. Let the re-build take it's course because every time we tear up a plan and start again, we set ourselves back 3/4 years
I think there is basis for criticizing this rebuild and valid reasons for doubting the potential long term success with the assumed approach taken based on the players brought in during the summer and the way we play. I.e. we brought in players suited for a counter-attacking/low block approach, while the best performing teams plays some variant of possession-based football.

Are we aiming for a low block/counter-attacking style of play and think that this the best way for us to compete for the major trophies? (Not going to work long term)
OR
Are the players or the manager/coaches unable to play/coach/manage the team into playing a different style? (Most likely a mixture of incompetence on both parts)

And why did the people at the club think that this midfield would be anywhere close to good enough this season? Clear as day that it was not up to the task, and if they thought (hoped) that Fred would finally be able to adapt, then they are delusional.
 

SadlerMUFC

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First off, I am by no means a fan of the Glazers, but I don't get this argument about our spending being cut between 2005-10. We bought some of our best players during that time including players like Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Berbatov and Tevez. Then when we sold CR7 people wanted us to spend big just for the sake of spending. SAF got the funds that he wanted and we had a great team....
 

SirAF

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Just look at the bloody stadium as well, it should have been upgraded ages ago. I remember Ferguson saying, a long time ago, that he had a dream to see OT reach a 100K capacity in his time :(
 

MrEarl

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In the seven post SAF transfer markets United had a net expenditure of 549 million, an average of 78 million each year. That is quite a bit more than our 5 major rivals for top four with the exception of City who outspent everybody.

Last year is a bit tricky. The net expenditure was 65 million but there was a net loss in investment of 40 million for Herrera (seems conservative since it would cost at least that amount to replace him in today's inflated market). So the rebuilding effort for this year was 25 million, considerably less than our competitors not barred from the transfer market. We become less competitive?
I suggest the current transfer market problems stem from Woodward's bean counter mentality. He assesses the market value of a player and will only buy players that fall within that valuation. He's right to go through that process but it's more complicated. What is the cost of not filling a position that is empty? Herrera's loss left a void in central midfield. Ole's honeymoon ended when Herrera was injured last year and the club had no replacement. Still no replacement and now no Herrera. What is the cost to the club of having only one (Pogba) CMF? When, as now, Pogba is out, the club has no Premier League quality CMF. Hence, no service to the forwards and no goals.

Getting a quality CMF in January would require spending more than the market value but not filling the CMF void will result in an enormous loss. Quite likely not finishing in the top six.
 
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Marcelinho87

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First off, I am by no means a fan of the Glazers, but I don't get this argument about our spending being cut between 2005-10. We bought some of our best players during that time including players like Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Berbatov and Tevez. Then when we sold CR7 people wanted us to spend big just for the sake of spending. SAF got the funds that he wanted and we had a great team....
We bought some good players granted but we didn't spend well enough. Top teams stay top by spending like a top team and by continuously investing into the team.

When we sold Ronaldo we should have invested in Robben but not investing properly meant we bring in Owen and Valencia.... SAF made it work because he was very good at what he did.
 

432JuanMata

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I kind of agree we spend a lot of money unfortunately on average players which isn’t the Glaziers fault.

IMO they are the 3rd problem along way behind Woodward then Ole. If they keep investing as they have for the last 6 years then all we need is a DOF and a top quality manager and we be on our way
 

Lentwood

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First off, I am by no means a fan of the Glazers, but I don't get this argument about our spending being cut between 2005-10. We bought some of our best players during that time including players like Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Berbatov and Tevez. Then when we sold CR7 people wanted us to spend big just for the sake of spending. SAF got the funds that he wanted and we had a great team....
Vidic and Evra cost £11m - that’s cheap even in 2005/06

Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson were signed with the money the club knew it could get/would be getting for Ronaldo (yes I know we signed them two years before Ronaldo actually went - but he’d started to make noises about going)

Tevez was a loan signing - I don’t think he cost much at all

Berbatov £30m and Carrick £18m isn’t particularly standout over a 5yr period

This “argument” can easily be settled without conjecture - just look at our net spend during the ‘PIK period’ compared to afterwards
 

Irwin99

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Its the haphazard nature of the spending that's the problem and the clear knowledge that the Glazers/Ed would get away with spending the smallest amount of money possible if it ensured that the revenues generated by a top 4 finish would continue (winning the league/champions league is obviously not a priority- look at the beginning of Jose's third season). The cycle seems to be one of:
  • penny pinching/we'll do fine for the upcoming season
  • Disaster strikes, the squad deficiencies are plain to see, the season falls apart
  • massive panic spend with players brought in, things slightly improve but structural issues remain
  • failure to build on the previous season's success, tightening of the purse strings, and it all goes to hell again.

The last two transfer windows have seen a net spend of around 60-70 million which for a club of United's stature and with it's urgent need of carefully planned investment just isn't enough. Finishing 2nd place in 2018 and 19 points behind City and then going out and just buying Fred and Dalot was ludicrous, especially as anyone could see we were a team punching way above our weight. It's this kind of stuff that lead people to get angry with Ed/Glazers and also the idea that we're never quite sure if the players brought in are actually the ones that the manager wants.

I'm getting fed-up of reading nonsense about the club's current activity in the transfer market being somehow related to cost-cutting or 'penny-pinching'.

Finally, I'm sick of this 'why didn't we replace Player X' nonsense....again, I'm sorry if most of your experience of transfers comes from Football Manager 2019 but we were never going to buy eight in one window, and nor should we. I guarantee that had we done this, four at least would have flopped and we'd have been talking about more deadwood to offload in 18-months time. Far better to sign two 'banker' players for big money every window, at the right age, than buy hordes of sh**e and hope some of it comes good! I see very few players who went in the Summer window who were attainable AND desirable so I'm happy to accept it's going to take time! Build with players like Maguire and AWB until we're in a position to attract the De Ligt's, the De Jong's and the Joao Felix's of the next Summer windows.


So my point is, it's perfectly possible to believe the Glazers HAVE harmed the club immeasurably but still NOT trot out this nonsense about 'penny-pinching' and Wooward 'pulling the wool over our eyes'. We spend huge amounts of money, without risking ourselves financially, but we make TERRIBLE decisions, or did make until this Summer just gone.

Let's not strangle this new start in it's crib because we can't see past one Summer or one game. Let the re-build take it's course because every time we tear up a plan and start again, we set ourselves back 3/4 years
It's been a fecking rebuild for the last 5 years and the similarities between this and LVG's reign are mounting at this point. Nobody expected 8 players in but as Ole said himself, the players that leave will have to be replaced (that didn't materialise did it!). The planned reinforcements for this season should have started way before last season ended. Going into this season with this squad and aiming for top 4 (which was Ole's stated aim for the season) was suicidal planning based on the most optimistic of hopes. It's an absolute joke and may actually negatively impact our transfer targets next summer if we finish mid-table or worse. Good luck convincing these promising players to join United unless we pay them obscene wages (and add to the wage bill problem)

Now of course, perhaps if the players we really wanted were unavailable then it doesn't make sense to just panic buy whoever, but a few cheaper temporary stop-gap signings would have helped the pressure on this squad enormously for this season. If the reports are true that we pulled out of the Manduzkic signing in the summer but that we're now in for him in January it just goes to show how shite our planning has been. Our manager and board thought we'd get by and we're clearly really struggling.

The buying of AWB, Maguire, and James does look promising but the fans that preach patience have got to realise that it works both ways- you can't judge those three signings as successes right now. For all we know AWB could be Luke Shaw mk 2 and Maguire's form hasn't exactly been as good as his first few games for the club.

It will be interesting to see if we do finish midtable this season how much money will be available next season and what kind of players we get. I believe Pogba is as good as gone and we might end up just spending the funds generated by his sale.
 

SadlerMUFC

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We bought some good players granted but we didn't spend well enough. Top teams stay top by spending like a top team and by continuously investing into the team.

When we sold Ronaldo we should have invested in Robben but not investing properly meant we bring in Owen and Valencia.... SAF made it work because he was very good at what he did.
We should have bought a player who already turned us down? No thanks. By the way, that year that CR7 left and Valencia came in we went on to score a lot more goals than we did in the previous season and narrowly missed out on winning the league (which happens sometimes). But we were still on top and remained on top for a number of years up until SAF's retirement...
 

SadlerMUFC

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Vidic and Evra cost £11m - that’s cheap even in 2005/06

Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson were signed with the money the club knew it could get/would be getting for Ronaldo (yes I know we signed them two years before Ronaldo actually went - but he’d started to make noises about going)

Tevez was a loan signing - I don’t think he cost much at all

Berbatov £30m and Carrick £18m isn’t particularly standout over a 5yr period

This “argument” can easily be settled without conjecture - just look at our net spend during the ‘PIK period’ compared to afterwards
So what you're saying is that rather than making the great signings that we did, we should have just went out and spent a ton more just for the sake of spending money? It's nonsense like this that makes me so happy that "the Caf" isn't running the club :lol::lol::lol:
 

MrPooni

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Vidic and Evra cost £11m - that’s cheap even in 2005/06

Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson were signed with the money the club knew it could get/would be getting for Ronaldo (yes I know we signed them two years before Ronaldo actually went - but he’d started to make noises about going)
What a load of bollocks :lol:

No one during that period could have envisioned Ronaldo going for £80m cash when he was sold never mind two or three years in advance. In hindsight it was an absolute bargain but Christ, even when the transfer happened, the general consensus was that Madrid had overpaid for Ronaldo relative to the Kaka transfer. The amount of revisionist history in threads like this is astonishing.

Tevez was a loan signing - I don’t think he cost much at all

Berbatov £30m and Carrick £18m isn’t particularly standout over a 5yr period
How old are you? Because any functioning adult at the time would have remembered us being absolutely pelted for paying so much for Carrick when we did. Sure the transfer fees in question look meagre compared to the money being thrown around now but these were big fees at the time. Berbatov's transfer alone was considered extremely dramatic when it happened.

This “argument” can easily be settled without conjecture
:lol:

I can't.
 

Marcelinho87

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We should have bought a player who already turned us down? No thanks. By the way, that year that CR7 left and Valencia came in we went on to score a lot more goals than we did in the previous season and narrowly missed out on winning the league (which happens sometimes). But we were still on top and remained on top for a number of years up until SAF's retirement...
Just reinforces what I said... It worked because of SAF.
 

RyRy11

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Granted if we spent more smartly over the last 7 years we wouldn't be in this position. However with every new manager/regime you have to draw the line underneath the past transfers and the manager has to be backed to the best of their ability. Could we have spent an extra £150m this summer? Most likely. The defence was addressed but the Midfield and Attack wasn't.

That leaves us in the position we are in currently, potentially missing out on on top 6 let alone Champions League. So no CL to attract the top players to rebuild and we are still going to spend the money we should have spent in the summer just later on.All this and you have to factor in Pogba likely leaving next summer and trying to replace his quality without CL football.

So yes, we cant keep spending £200m+ each year but that goes hand in hand with appointing the wrong managers and not appointing a director of football.
 

Sandikan

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The opening post is lovely and that before remembering the woeful lack of strength in our squad this summer.

And then basically putting 40m net into it.

Leaving the season the mess we're seeing with a defeat today leaving us one point off bottom 3.
 

AneRu

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In the seven post SAF transfer markets United had a net expenditure of 549 million, an average of 78 million each year. That is quite a bit more than our 5 major rivals for top four with the exception of City who outspent everybody.

Last year is a bit tricky. The net expenditure was 65 million but there was a net loss in investment of 40 million for Herrera (seems conservative since it would cost at least that amount to replace him in today's inflated market). So the rebuilding effort for this year was 25 million, considerably less than our competitors not barred from the transfer market. We become less competitive?
I suggest the current transfer market problems stem from Woodward's bean counter mentality. He assesses the market value of a player and will only buy players that fall within that valuation. He's right to go through that process but it's more complicated. What is the cost of not filling a position that is empty? Herrera's loss left a void in central midfield. Ole's honeymoon ended when Herrera was injured last year and the club had no replacement. Still no replacement and now no Herrera. What is the cost to the club of having only one (Pogba) CMF? When, as now, Pogba is out, the club has no Premier League quality CMF. Hence, no service to the forwards and no goals.

Getting a quality CMF in January would require spending more than the market value but not filling the CMF void will result in an enormous loss. Quite likely not finishing in the top six.
Good post, leaving the team with holes in the squad costs more in terms of prize money, broadcasting income and general progression of the team than keeping the money in the bank. If we don't make top 4, reach the latter stages of the EL/FAC then we suffer financially and in prestige terms which makes it difficult to attract quality players.

Suppose we really went after B. Fernandes and there was a £20m difference in valuation between the clubs, not spending that extra £20m would cost us more looking at our paucity in creativity and goals from midfield. This is why I think that basic commercial concepts do not really apply to sport, Liverpool spent loads on Van Dijk and Allison then saw their team go from very good to near invincible and with their historical fan base their success is easier to monetize. The same concepts apply with United, build a team that is a constant fixture in the top 3 and latter stages of the CL and you easily hit £700m turnover per year.

Whilst I agree with the OP that we have spent sums of money that should have been enough to build a title challenging team I feel that there hasn't been an adequate review of why we have failed. We need changes on how we recruit players and managers and we need to have more football intellect above the manager. This touted cultural reboot that seems to be just about signing more British players is flawed because of the English premium which forces the club to pay more for less talented players.
 

LingiBW

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When taking over the club, the Glazers did load the club up with a lot debt. However, immediately after that the club started another period of sustained success.

We did get some good players in (Carrick, Evra et al). Around 2009 that's when the true rot started with SAF choosing the 'no value in the market route' because of some rose-tinted principle against agents. The investment made around this time was wrong in that whilst the club still had success, the players we brought in or didnt bring in - in the case of CMs - were not good enough to carry the burden of success from the players who were coming towards the end of an cycle.

Gill and Fergie are to blame for this in a way, esp the great man as when we were in a position of strength he didn't do all he could in the recruitment dept to maintain it.

Fast forward when we got Woodward and Moyes, it coincided with the end of said era. At that time the structure at the club should have been changed to a modern one.

That, and not the money pinching is what has us in the mess we are because if we are being honest, money has been spent, just that on the wrong targets, at the wrong time.

We as a club failed to invest continuously whislt at the top when signing 1/2 quality players a season was all that was needed to now having the need for 4/5 quality players a season when fees simultaneously got crazy.

That is where the problem was and has been.

How do we fix it in the now, well, i will leave that for someone else.
 
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SadlerMUFC

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Just reinforces what I said... It worked because of SAF.
This post is talking about 2005-10. Years that SAF was in charge and we were still winning. Sounds like people wanted us to spend just for the sake of spending. When Moyes took over we still had a very good team. In fact, we won the league easily the year before. So did you want us to invest heavily from 2005-2010 to prepare for 2013? Come on now. We can blame the Glazers for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. Moyes messed up the team. It had nothing to do with a lack of investment because we were always looking to improve the team. And when CR7 left the worst thing that we could have done was try to replace him. You can't replace CR7. Instead we got Valencia and changed our style. We became more of a team rather than relying on an indivdual and the goal scoring followed. HOwever, since the Moyes era, what we started to do differently was chase global stars. That has never worked for us. We were at our most successful when we bought established stars from the EPL clubs below us, and bought young up and comers from lower leagues like in Portugal and Holland. We have now started to go back to that way because our "galactico" approach hasn't been working. I don't like our results right now, but we are finally heading back in the right direction again...
 

AneRu

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Granted if we spent more smartly over the last 7 years we wouldn't be in this position. However with every new manager/regime you have to draw the line underneath the past transfers and the manager has to be backed to the best of their ability. Could we have spent an extra £150m this summer? Most likely. The defence was addressed but the Midfield and Attack wasn't.

That leaves us in the position we are in currently, potentially missing out on on top 6 let alone Champions League. So no CL to attract the top players to rebuild and we are still going to spend the money we should have spent in the summer just later on.All this and you have to factor in Pogba likely leaving next summer and trying to replace his quality without CL football.

So yes, we cant keep spending £200m+ each year but that goes hand in hand with appointing the wrong managers and not appointing a director of football.
The biggest mistakes we made going into the summer were letting Herrera go and failing to notice that Matic was done as a serviceable first team option. To then go into the season relying heavily on Pogba and McTominay was just unforgivable and an act of self sabotage.

We look like we are going to fail again this season and such a failure has consequences on the rebuild. If ever there was a summer where we needed to push the boat out it was this. Feck this nonsense about financial stability when your existence as a top team is under threat. Liverpool pushed the boat out for Allison and Keita last season and won big which allowed them to sit out this transfer window and still come out guns blazing.

If we had pushed our limits last summer, in terms of spending, and brought in five or six players we could then afford to spend little next summer or adopt a 'one in, one out' strategy for the following two windows.
 

Marcelinho87

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This post is talking about 2005-10. Years that SAF was in charge and we were still winning. Sounds like people wanted us to spend just for the sake of spending. When Moyes took over we still had a very good team. In fact, we won the league easily the year before. So did you want us to invest heavily from 2005-2010 to prepare for 2013? Come on now. We can blame the Glazers for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. Moyes messed up the team. It had nothing to do with a lack of investment because we were always looking to improve the team. And when CR7 left the worst thing that we could have done was try to replace him. You can't replace CR7. Instead we got Valencia and changed our style. We became more of a team rather than relying on an indivdual and the goal scoring followed. HOwever, since the Moyes era, what we started to do differently was chase global stars. That has never worked for us. We were at our most successful when we bought established stars from the EPL clubs below us, and bought young up and comers from lower leagues like in Portugal and Holland. We have now started to go back to that way because our "galactico" approach hasn't been working. I don't like our results right now, but we are finally heading back in the right direction again...
The team Moyes inherited had won the league easily yes but that was down to the brilliance of RVP lets not get it mixed up, largely that squad was old and needed replacing.

Moyes messed up replacing the backroom staff, that was a bigger blow.

But yes I do expect us to spend, as I said previously all clubs at the top continuously invest in the playing squad.. You will find the likes of Man City, Real Madrid, Barcelona etc are all big spenders year in year out.

Edit: I do agree with your final points about how we recruit though. Had SAF been here I still believe we would have had AWB, Maguire and James but I also think maybe the likes of Kane and Sancho would be here too..
 

Lentwood

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So what you're saying is that rather than making the great signings that we did, we should have just went out and spent a ton more just for the sake of spending money? It's nonsense like this that makes me so happy that "the Caf" isn't running the club :lol::lol::lol:
I’m not sure what you’re on about tbh...you do know I created this thread...the thread defending the spending....?

What I say about 2005-2010 is fact. We had a positive net spend because we had PIK loans to repay. We made some good signings during this period but that doesn’t hide the fact we could have been really looking to the future and spending on the likes of Hazard, Kompany, David Silva and Aguero - all players who were transferred to our rivals during this period of “no value in the market”

I think we tried to do this - you see after 2010 we signed players like Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Zaha, Kagawa and Hernandez. This was most likely SAFs attempt to leave a decent young squad for his replacement but he never addressed the midfield issues caused by partnering a 40yo Giggs with a 37yo Paul Scholes at times during his final year and as we know, besides De Gea, none of the others really fulfilled their potential
 

Lentwood

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What a load of bollocks :lol:

No one during that period could have envisioned Ronaldo going for £80m cash when he was sold never mind two or three years in advance. In hindsight it was an absolute bargain but Christ, even when the transfer happened, the general consensus was that Madrid had overpaid for Ronaldo relative to the Kaka transfer. The amount of revisionist history in threads like this is astonishing.

How old are you? Because any functioning adult at the time would have remembered us being absolutely pelted for paying so much for Carrick when we did. Sure the transfer fees in question look meagre compared to the money being thrown around now but these were big fees at the time. Berbatov's transfer alone was considered extremely dramatic when it happened.

:lol:

I can't.
Again I really don’t know what you’re taking about....your criticising fairly obvious statements which were actually made to defend the side you’re seemingly on...???

We had a positive net spend between 2005-2010....yes or no?

The PIK loans started in 2005 and were restructured in 2010...yes or no?

But don’t forget, the point of this thread is to say since 2010 we’ve spent enough to be doing much better. So I don’t know why me saying us spending frugally whilst we paid back our heavy debts seems to have upset you or surprised you, it’s just fact. I didn’t say we didn’t spend anything at all did I!

And yes actually, many did see the Ronaldo sale coming...it was practically all the papers talked about for two/three summers after “the Rooney incident” and yes £80m was a hell of a lot then but since Real paid £60m-odd for Zidane and Figo around 2000(?) it wasn’t out of the blue
 

SadlerMUFC

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I’m not sure what you’re on about tbh...you do know I created this thread...the thread defending the spending....?

What I say about 2005-2010 is fact. We had a positive net spend because we had PIK loans to repay. We made some good signings during this period but that doesn’t hide the fact we could have been really looking to the future and spending on the likes of Hazard, Kompany, David Silva and Aguero - all players who were transferred to our rivals during this period of “no value in the market”

I think we tried to do this - you see after 2010 we signed players like Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Zaha, Kagawa and Hernandez. This was most likely SAFs attempt to leave a decent young squad for his replacement but he never addressed the midfield issues caused by partnering a 40yo Giggs with a 37yo Paul Scholes at times during his final year and as we know, besides De Gea, none of the others really fulfilled their potential
So these players not meeting their potential is obviously the fault of the Glazers...sigh
 

arthurka

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Putting a banker as a CEO of a football club is their biggest crime. This club has a revolving door for anyone but deadwood footballers and no structure to build success on. That is the Glazer's strategy all here were warned as this blueprint had already been used by them in Tampa.
 

mark_a

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I'd say it's not as much a matter of "cost cutting" as just bad business. Didn't we waste time "negotiating" fees for Maguire and AWB that were basically the first price quoted? Time that could have been spent securing the other 1 or 2 players we obviously need! I'd file some of our behaviour under "failed cost-cutting" or just bad business.
 

Valuedrug

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I'm getting fed-up of reading nonsense about the club's current activity in the transfer market being somehow related to cost-cutting or 'penny-pinching'.

Let's just get one thing clear before I start - the club is currently in the state it is in BECAUSE of the Glazers. This is fact. I don't even think it's a debate anymore. They leveraged the club with debt, cut-costs between 2005-2010 and appointed non-footballing men like Woodward to run the club.

I also want to make clear that I have previously criticised the Glazers spending. Their frugality between 2005-2010, caused directly by high-interest loans which needed to be repaid, cost the club it's place at the top table of European football and to a large extent, we've been trying to catch-up ever since.

However, to say that the transfer activity in the last window was somehow a cost-cutting exercise (or even their activity post-SAF) really does get me wound up. I'm sick of hearing that phrase. It's all over Twitter and my Utd-supporting mates are constantly parroting this nonsense in every single conversation about the club.

First of all, it makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. If your a business owner and you've got a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't sell that goose for it's meat or starve it trying to save money on corn. Yes, the Glazers and Woodward are/have been incompetent but they're clearly not doing this deliberately and we're clearly not in the state we're in because of lack of investment* in players.

*Yes investment is a valid term to use before some moron pipes up with 'they haven't invested it's our money'. Valid point - the Glazers haven't invested any money from their personal assets in the club. Invalid point - 'the Glazers haven't invested any money in transfers/players'.

Second of all, I think Utd fans really need to re-set their expectations on what they think an acceptable amount to spend is every Summer. I've pointed out elsewhere that when it comes to winning titles and major European trophies, we have probably fallen behind the likes of PSG and Manchester City in the spending stakes. However, there are very few clubs in world football who have spent more than us over the last 7 years, if any (including wages). It shouldn't be necessary to spend £200m every Summer to have a squad capable of challenging. It's also important to talk about wages because, again as I've previously stated, Utd have always targeted a wage/turnover ratio of about 50%. We were right on the threshold of this after Jose's tenure and we had virtually nothing to show for it! Therefore, if we want new players in, we have to get players out. This is just good governance. I'm sorry, I want the club to spend a billion every window - providing we can do so in a financially sustainable way - but we CAN'T.

Furthermore, I would be very interested to know what the average Utd fan thinks our 'profits' are at the end of every season. Last season, we actually made a £50m loss (granted we were paying off/restructuring tax payments) but we can't afford to spend £200m every Summer. It's just a fact. If your a fan of Utd and you wanted the club to spend another £100m last Summer (probably gets you one top player), you're advocating risking the clubs financial stability.

Again, I'm sorry if you're looking across town with jealously at the rich kids in blue but they're not a business, they're a toy/PR vehicle for a very, very rich NATION. Also, this will stop now, they've pushed the limits of FFP as far as they will go and will now have to increase revenues to spend more. Something they are massively struggling to do after the initial sharp increase that comes with going from being a Championship-sized club to being a successful Global brand. They are now going to have to be run in a financially stable way and they won't be spending £200m+ very often again, if ever.

Thirdly, the question I keep asking is 'if it's all about penny-pinching, why not sell Rashford, Martial or Pogba last Summer?'. The Glazers, as bad as they have been, have never sold a player who wanted to stay/the club wanted to keep. Ronaldo left because SAF promised him he could go, not because the Glazers forced a sale. Name me one player we've wanted to keep they've forced a manager to sell? I can't think of one. If it's about quick-wins, why didn't they force out Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic and why now do they supposedly let 6/7 players go to 'cut-costs' when they could make all that cash back with the sale of one player? In fact, if I remember rightly, Jose wanted to SELL Martial and the Glazers said 'No'!!!

Finally, I'm sick of this 'why didn't we replace Player X' nonsense....again, I'm sorry if most of your experience of transfers comes from Football Manager 2019 but we were never going to buy eight in one window, and nor should we. I guarantee that had we done this, four at least would have flopped and we'd have been talking about more deadwood to offload in 18-months time. Far better to sign two 'banker' players for big money every window, at the right age, than buy hordes of sh**e and hope some of it comes good! I see very few players who went in the Summer window who were attainable AND desirable so I'm happy to accept it's going to take time! Build with players like Maguire and AWB until we're in a position to attract the De Ligt's, the De Jong's and the Joao Felix's of the next Summer windows.

So let's just calm down a bit and get our facts right, otherwise, we just look like idiots when we're phoning into TalkSport banging on about 'saving money' and 'not spending'. See summary below;

- The Glazers have significantly harmed Manchester Utd
- Spending was curtailed between 2005-2010 because we had high-interest PIK loans to repay

However, post-SAF

- The club/the Glazers have spend a s**t tonne on transfers and wages
- The club sold players in the Summer who were deemed not good enough to take the club forward, as decided by THE MANAGER....I have no issue with this
- Again in the Summer, we spent £50m on a teenage RB and £80m on a CB....I really fail to see how this tallies with 'cost-cutting'. Cost-cutting is selling Lukaku and buying nobody.

So my point is, it's perfectly possible to believe the Glazers HAVE harmed the club immeasurably but still NOT trot out this nonsense about 'penny-pinching' and Wooward 'pulling the wool over our eyes'. We spend huge amounts of money, without risking ourselves financially, but we make TERRIBLE decisions, or did make until this Summer just gone.

Let's not strangle this new start in it's crib because we can't see past one Summer or one game. Let the re-build take it's course because every time we tear up a plan and start again, we set ourselves back 3/4 years
It’s not that the Glazers haven’t spent any money in the post-Ferguson era. It’s the way they’ve done it.

Why didn’t we spend a proper amount after Mourinhos second season? If he says our defence isn’t good enough, reinforce it. Or get rid, if you don’t believe in him anymore.

If he wants Martial or Pogba replaced, then replace them. Don’t let player marketability get in the way of creating a viable team that the manager can work with. If you prefer the players to the manager, then again, get rid of the him.

I’m not going into the financials of the club, because I don’t have the time to attempt to comb through a Swiss Ramble right now. But I heard the whole thing about United struggling with high wages and transfer fees dating back to previous windows, so I’ll take your word on that one. However, I also remember Ed Barker on the opening season episode of Rant Cast saying that United have huge piles of money just sitting in the bank.

Assuming that’s true, when you have a fortune available to back a manager, who you supposedly believe in, why not spend extra to get him a stronger foundation to build on? Why not close a few more of those gaping holes in the squad? Surely now is the time to go all in, if the rebuild is for real.

Okay, so allegedly we tried for Dybala and Eriksen, who weren’t interested. Then buy a talented right winger or a backup striker at least. If you can’t afford to buy a Mercedes until next year, and it absolutely has to be that car and no other, then at least buy a bicycle or bus pass so you can still get around for the time being. Don’t plan on running to work for a year, losing your job and destroying your legs in the process. Guess who won’t be getting a Mercedes any time soon in that case.
 

JoaquinJoaquin

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The last 2 years have shown the Transfer budget has been slashed massively, That cannot be argued either.

It seems the Glazer's are now holding back slightly. Add the fact the stadium has been left to ruin pretty much.
 

UpWithRivers

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Good post and totally agree. The problem is everyone has no idea what goes on behind the scenes and therefore just make educated guesses at best. For instance the Maguire saga. Mourinho went on and on how he never got a CB and everyone believes we refused to cough up an extra few mill and then we had to pay more in the summer. Who knows this? No one. Its possible that Leicester we’re playing hardball last year asking for 90 and we refused. Who knows. When City pull out of deals cos the don't want to pay they are hero's.
Basically there has been a lot if fk ups and bad luck but the actual blame is probably a lot more complex and a lot down to the managers and thier teams and a sht ton of bad luck more than anything.
 

Irrational.

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Good post OP. Seems like people want to blame the Glazers for everything when the truth is much more complicated than that. It's not all because of the 'Evil Glazers'.
 

backofthenet

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Putting a banker as a CEO of a football club is their biggest crime. This club has a revolving door for anyone but deadwood footballers and no structure to build success on. That is the Glazer's strategy all here were warned as this blueprint had already been used by them in Tampa.
Hang on... most of the CEO's of UK clubs are not football men. David Gill was a chartered accountant. Daniel Levy was a property developer. Peter Moore worked in computer games at Sega, Microsoft and EA. Vinai Venkatesham of Arsenal came from the London 2012 board. It's only really Soriano at City that has significant experience of football clubs as a CEO. I'm not denying that he's made several significant feck ups but just saying that cos he's a banker he can't possibly run a football club is rubbish.
 

arthurka

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Hang on... most of the CEO's of UK clubs are not football men. David Gill was a chartered accountant. Daniel Levy was a property developer. Peter Moore worked in computer games at Sega, Microsoft and EA. Vinai Venkatesham of Arsenal came from the London 2012 board. It's only really Soriano at City that has significant experience of football clubs as a CEO. I'm not denying that he's made several significant feck ups but just saying that cos he's a banker he can't possibly run a football club is rubbish.
Yeah but most football CEO's aren't DoF and scouts.
 

bleedred

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We should have replaced Ronaldo with Messi and Tevez with Zlatan, which didn't happen ONLY because of the penny pinching Glazers, who didn't even let SAF buy a British record transfer forward a year back.
 

Full bodied red

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Have to agree 101% with the original post.

Sums up the past 15 years or so perfectly.

It's not as though The Glazers have not provided shedloads of cash the past five or six years since SAF retitred - it's just that most of the players signed have been hugely expensive but at the same time hugely underwhelming to say the least.

Hopefully James and Wan Bissaka are the start of a return to buying good players with the potential of still more to come rather than the mantra of ' He was a World Record Fee so must be good ' which we can now see has absolutely not been the case.
 

clarkydaz

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I'd say it's not as much a matter of "cost cutting" as just bad business. Didn't we waste time "negotiating" fees for Maguire and AWB that were basically the first price quoted? Time that could have been spent securing the other 1 or 2 players we obviously need! I'd file some of our behaviour under "failed cost-cutting" or just bad business.
You just reminded me how livid I was in the summer waiting for that AWB transfer. A crystal Palace England fullback nobody else was in for and we still made it heavy work. Then the leaks of 'focusing on one transfer at a time' and putting stupid clauses in made my blood boil
 

mark_a

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You just reminded me how livid I was in the summer waiting for that AWB transfer. A crystal Palace England fullback nobody else was in for and we still made it heavy work. Then the leaks of 'focusing on one transfer at a time' and putting stupid clauses in made my blood boil
Exactly. We (Woody) need to either do business quickly or quietly, not slowly and all over the press.
 

Wumminator

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Exactly. We (Woody) need to either do business quickly or quietly, not slowly and all over the press.
It is this sort of black or white thinking that is mental to me.

For all we know we knocked ten million off the asking price. There was a massive furore about Zaha’s clause that could have slowed things down. Woodwood could have been as quiet as a mouse; it could have been Palace leaking the information.

we don’t actually know what happened.

It is like the people saying “why wasn’t Mourinho backed in his third year”. Well hang on a minute, he got a 55 million quid player (who he didn’t play), he’d just signed a player on the highest wage bill in the Prem and many of his targets were old and might have hindered our wage bill. There’s a nuance to all of this that people are completely ignoring.
 

Danillaco

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In the seven post SAF transfer markets United had a net expenditure of 549 million, an average of 78 million each year. That is quite a bit more than our 5 major rivals for top four with the exception of City who outspent everybody.

Last year is a bit tricky. The net expenditure was 65 million but there was a net loss in investment of 40 million for Herrera (seems conservative since it would cost at least that amount to replace him in today's inflated market). So the rebuilding effort for this year was 25 million, considerably less than our competitors not barred from the transfer market. We become less competitive?
I suggest the current transfer market problems stem from Woodward's bean counter mentality. He assesses the market value of a player and will only buy players that fall within that valuation. He's right to go through that process but it's more complicated. What is the cost of not filling a position that is empty? Herrera's loss left a void in central midfield. Ole's honeymoon ended when Herrera was injured last year and the club had no replacement. Still no replacement and now no Herrera. What is the cost to the club of having only one (Pogba) CMF? When, as now, Pogba is out, the club has no Premier League quality CMF. Hence, no service to the forwards and no goals.

Getting a quality CMF in January would require spending more than the market value but not filling the CMF void will result in an enormous loss. Quite likely not finishing in the top six.
I will never understand letting Herrera go, and renewing Mata, Jones and Young. Sums up Woodward.