Pep - Doping (?) | Are PEDs being used by footballers

[GazTheLegend]

However, you can't just pull up a picture of a professional athlete and accuse them of doping, that's ridiculous.

That's a fair point and I deliberately didn't argue against it. It's borderline libellous and any debate on PED use should be generalistic and avoid pointing fingers (but citing alleged cases like pep and nandrolone, Barcelona and Fuentes, juventus and agricola, and even Glenn hoddle and Gary Neville should be fair game)

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Assuming he was on drugs, along with every other footballer. What are they using that evades detection?

The doping system has to play ‘catch up’ with the improved ways. In the NFL for example they have certain days for testing, as long as you don’t get caught on those specific testing days you can work your way around the system. UFC likewise, there are ‘supplements’ that can disappear within 48 hours of the system. More likely then not it happens in every high level sport and competition. Like Lance Armstrong once said, if i wouldn’t do it, others would.

 

[RedRover]

Some of your numbers are frankly nonsense, but the body begins to struggle to function below about 8% body fat as cortisol increases and testosterone decreases. It's different for everyone, but that's about average. Professional PL footballers range from about 9% to 13% (there have been studies done on that). So they're not at the point where performance suffers, and those numbers are easily achievable with proper training and nutrition of the sort you will not have even if you have been working out for a long long time. Each player has their own tailored nutrition and training plan that gets them as close to their personal limit without taking them over it. They're not guessing at it, clubs spend millions on this stuff.

Do footballers take PEDs? Sure, I'd be amazed if they didn't. Does Alphonso Davies look like that because he is taking them? No.


But I understand now. You go to your local Fitness First so you think you train the way professional athletes do, and you see a photo of Davies looking like that and wonder why you can't look like that too. They are different to you, they're not doing this with a 9 to 5 job, Myprotein.com supplement stack and a dodgy workout programme.

100% correct. I have a couple of pro-players (PL level) as clients. They look big on the TV but are much smaller, leaner and lighter in real life. The figures you quote there are, I suspect, spot on. I know lads who walk around at 13 - 15% BF and they're not training all day every day.

Fascinates me that people are so disinclined to accept that looking like the player referred here does, as a pro-athlete, is normal. People refuse to accept that they do not train, nor recover, nor look after their diet like a pro. As you say, Davies is not following a three day body building split and doing a couple of 5km runs a week, followed by ten pints and a Domino's on a Saturday.

I went from 28% BF to just over 11% in 17 weeks (measured properly using accurate, professional calipers but I agree there's a margin for error), losing 18kg. I did so by training more and eating less, the latter being the hardest bit. I was lean, and with a good pump on and the right light looked fairly "ripped". As such, I can very easily see how pro-players who no doubt abstain from drinking and eat proper food probably prepared for them look like they do and can maintain such low levels of BF.

And I agree, no doubt there are people using PED's in football, as there are in all sports. But I also suspect you can't tell by looking at them, or they'd be popped in no time.

It's a symptom of society that people look at others who have achieved something, in this case a physique, they'd probably like themselves and instantly point to "drugs". It is of course much easier to pretend they got it by foul means than actually doing the hard yards to at least try and achieve it.

 

[NYAS]

Always makes me chuckle how defensive and petty people get when it comes to this topic. It always gets personal really quick. Very weird but very funny too.

 

[sullydnl]

I've been working out for a long long time and I can tell you that you can't reach that amount of low body fat naturally without feeling like shit. There is a very "normal" limit you can achieve while being natural, irrespective of you being a regular guy, a bodybuilder or a football player.

Staying at 8-10% body fat without steroids or SARM is nearly impossible, even if you hit the 0,001% genetic lottery. Football players and athletes stay around that body fat level almost 365/365 days, I really hope you know how difficult that is to manage, especially considering they're playing football during that period as well. There are people that go to the gym twice a day and spend 10 to 100K every 3 months on steroids, TST replacement and still can't manage to be consistently ripped.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse or rude, but thinking a professional athlete can stay at such a low body fat and still perform brilliantly all year long without banned substances is hilarious.

Take the Goretzka or Bale scenarios. They gained like 8-10kg of lean muscle mass in a year. That's fecking impossible to achieve naturally even if your only goal is to build muscle and you're not doing anything else (we're not talking about gaining 8-10 kg of muscle mass in a year, that can be done with bulking, we're talking about adding serious size while being at 7-8-10% body fat). Add tens of thousands of miles of running during a year and it's god damn impossible even if you're a Greek god. Also should be taken in consideration that football players somehow build that muscle mass during the off season, they magically gain some kgs of lean muscle in periods where they're not drug tested.

C'mon, let's grow up a bit. You don't think they'd use all the advantage of medical technology in an industry worth so many billions? Or should we believe that Cristiano is at 6% body fat as a natural for the last 8-12 years?

Regarding the bold, I thought EPL players at least can be tested at any time, not just during the season.

 

[8thWonder]

That's a fair point and I deliberately didn't argue against it. It's borderline libellous and any debate on PED use should be generalistic and avoid pointing fingers (but citing alleged cases like pep and nandrolone, Barcelona and Fuentes, juventus and agricola, and even Glenn hoddle and Gary Neville should be fair game)

Agreed, it's definitely worth talking about. Especially in consideration to how often it's not talked about if that makes sense?

I just came arcoss this from Guardian/Der Spiegel on Ramos failing a drugs test before the Champions League final;

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ons-league-final-deny-statement-a8649321.html

Obviously doesn't prove or disprove anything but you can quite easily see (and I know this falls under conspiracy theories again) how things like that would be covered up to not cause an absolute media sh*t storm for Fifa/Uefa etc...

My point is, it obviously goes on. How much, I don't think we'll ever know... Wenger came right out and said that some teams Arsenal were playing were systematically using didn't he?

 

[VanDeBank]

Staying at 8-10% body fat without steroids or SARM is nearly impossible, even if you hit the 0,001% genetic lottery.

No it isn't. It's very doable for the genetic freaks that are pro athletes, it just wouldn't be optimal for performance.

Football players and athletes stay around that body fat level almost 365/365 days

No, they don't. More like 10-12%

Take the Goretzka or Bale scenarios. They gained like 8-10kg of lean muscle mass in a year.

How do you know this?

That's fecking impossible to achieve naturally even if your only goal is to build muscle and you're not doing anything else

An untrained young male can put on 10kg of muscle mass (not lean, mind) in ~ 4 months. It's what happens when you eat and add 80kg to your squat. It's sounds very easy to put on that amount of muscle if you have 8 more months and freak genetics with little prior lifting experience, now that I think about it.

(we're not talking about gaining 8-10 kg of muscle mass in a year, that can be done with bulking, we're talking about adding serious size while being at 7-8-10% body fat).

No we're not. Where's your source Goretzka and Bale were on 7% bf during their bulk?

Add tens of thousands of miles of running during a year and it's god damn impossible even if you're a Greek god. Also should be taken in consideration that football players somehow build that muscle mass during the off season, they magically gain some kgs of lean muscle in periods where they're not drug tested.

Long distance running is highly catabolic. The stress of football training inhibs adequate adaption to heavy weight training. Without grueling 2h sessions, adding some kgs becomes very easy.

Or should we believe that Cristiano is at 6% body fat as a natural for the last 8-12 years?

No, because it was reported that he was at 7% just 3 years ago. Ronnie is also the biggest genetic freak on the planet.

 

[stefan92]

Regarding the bold, I thought EPL players at least can be tested at any time, not just during the season.

That's true for all professional athletes. And when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense that they gain muscles off season. That is simply the time when they are on their own and don't spend a lot of time running around together.

Building muscles is the most simple individual activity so it happens in that period.

 

[sullydnl]

If doping is as widespread in football as you might think it is then it won't be limited to whoever happens to be winning in a given season, or part of a team that press a lot, or players who have bulked up, or indeed players who play for teams we don't like. So pointing to a random player because of a random picture and guessing is hardly reliable.

Always worth remembering that our own Fred was banned for a year after testing positive for a known masking agent and he's hardly the incredible hulk.

 

[fergieisold]

The doping system has to play ‘catch up’ with the improved ways. In the NFL for example they have certain days for testing, as long as you don’t get caught on those specific testing days you can work your way around the system. UFC likewise, there are ‘supplements’ that can disappear within 48 hours of the system. More likely then not it happens in every high level sport and competition. Like Lance Armstrong once said, if i wouldn’t do it, others would.

Isn't testing in the PL random? I feel like if it was widespread at least some would get caught out?

 

[Withnail]

Assuming he was on drugs, along with every other footballer. What are they using that evades detection?

Dopers tend to be one step ahead of testers and testers are always playing catch up.

However, you do have to wonder how invested are the testers in actually catching anyone. It doesn't appear to me that there is much appetite to make sports clean.

 

[Adam-Utd]

If doping is as widespread in football as you might think it is then it won't be limited to whoever happens to be winning in a given season, or part of a team that press a lot, or players who have bulked up, or indeed players who play for teams we don't like. So pointing to a random player because of a random picture and guessing is hardly reliable.

Always worth remembering that our own Fred was banned for a year after testing positive for a known masking agent and he's hardly the incredible hulk.

PEDS aren't for bulking up, they are mainly used for recovery and stamina usage.

You can't argue that Fred never stops running no wonder Guardiola wanted him!

 

[fergieisold]

Dopers tend to be one step ahead of testers and testers are always playing catch up.

However, you do have to wonder how invested are the testers in actually catching anyone. It doesn't appear to me that there is much appetite to make sports clean.

If all the players were doping surely we'd have caught some? Unless there are drugs that simply are undetectable? The info below seems to suggest it's random, no warning given?

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/the-drug-testing-process

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You can't argue that Fred never stops running no wonder Guardiola wanted him!

He served a 4 month doping ban in Ukraine for testing positive for a masking agent.

 

[Withnail]

If all the players were doping surely we'd have caught some? Unless there are drugs that simply are undetectable? The info below seems to suggest it's random, no warning given?

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/the-drug-testing-process

Lance Armstrong was doped up to his eyeballs and got away with it throughout his career.

As I was saying earlier the testers are always on the back foot and playing catch-up. They may not be testing for what people are taking now and/or because they're not aware of it, it's not on the banned list yet. And then there's the appetite to open the can of worms at all.

 

[Jippy]

I get unbelievably irritated when you morons start accusing anyone of trying to start a conversation about this sort of thing of being a "conspiracy theorist". As if there wasn't literally a REAL LIFE conspiracy proven within the last few years which has led to the Olympics only allowing Russians to compete as the ROC.

Anyway, there was a good article in the Guardian about athletics a few years back.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-wider-usage-published-after-scandalous-delay

"Almost six-year wrangle delays release of anonymous surveys done after elite athletics events in 2011, in which 57% of competitors doing admitted doping compared to under 4% in Wada results"

So yeah. If you don't believe in specific cases or pointing fingers at specific individuals like here - fine. But don't tar the entire debate as a "conspiracy theory" because that's mind boggling -STUPID-, irritating, and actually counter productive if you want sport to be -clean-, which some of us desperately do.

People probably stop listening to your arguments when you start throwing out insults. Just tone it down a bit.

 

[Stacks]

Some of your numbers are frankly nonsense, but the body begins to struggle to function below about 8% body fat as cortisol increases and testosterone decreases. It's different for everyone, but that's about average. Professional PL footballers range from about 9% to 13% (there have been studies done on that). So they're not at the point where performance suffers, and those numbers are easily achievable with proper training and nutrition of the sort you will not have even if you have been working out for a long long time. Each player has their own tailored nutrition and training plan that gets them as close to their personal limit without taking them over it. They're not guessing at it, clubs spend millions on this stuff.

Do footballers take PEDs? Sure, I'd be amazed if they didn't. Does Alphonso Davies look like that because he is taking them? No.


But I understand now. You go to your local Fitness First so you think you train the way professional athletes do, and you see a photo of Davies looking like that and wonder why you can't look like that too. They are different to you, they're not doing this with a 9 to 5 job, Myprotein.com supplement stack and a dodgy workout programme.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Some of your numbers are frankly nonsense, but the body begins to struggle to function below about 8% body fat as cortisol increases and testosterone decreases. It's different for everyone, but that's about average. Professional PL footballers range from about 9% to 13% (there have been studies done on that). So they're not at the point where performance suffers, and those numbers are easily achievable with proper training and nutrition of the sort you will not have even if you have been working out for a long long time. Each player has their own tailored nutrition and training plan that gets them as close to their personal limit without taking them over it. They're not guessing at it, clubs spend millions on this stuff.

Do footballers take PEDs? Sure, I'd be amazed if they didn't. Does Alphonso Davies look like that because he is taking them? No.


But I understand now. You go to your local Fitness First so you think you train the way professional athletes do, and you see a photo of Davies looking like that and wonder why you can't look like that too. They are different to you, they're not doing this with a 9 to 5 job, Myprotein.com supplement stack and a dodgy workout programme.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Handré1990]

I don't want sports to be clean.
Happy? Now continue with your great work.

I looked like that at 21, never used anything I couldn’t get in a sporting store.

 

[SambaBoy]

I've been working out for a long long time and I can tell you that you can't reach that amount of low body fat naturally without feeling like shit. There is a very "normal" limit you can achieve while being natural, irrespective of you being a regular guy, a bodybuilder or a football player.

Staying at 8-10% body fat without steroids or SARM is nearly impossible, even if you hit the 0,001% genetic lottery. Football players and athletes stay around that body fat level almost 365/365 days, I really hope you know how difficult that is to manage, especially considering they're playing football during that period as well. There are people that go to the gym twice a day and spend 10 to 100K every 3 months on steroids, TST replacement and still can't manage to be consistently ripped.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse or rude, but thinking a professional athlete can stay at such a low body fat and still perform brilliantly all year long without banned substances is hilarious.

Take the Goretzka or Bale scenarios. They gained like 8-10kg of lean muscle mass in a year. That's fecking impossible to achieve naturally even if your only goal is to build muscle and you're not doing anything else (we're not talking about gaining 8-10 kg of muscle mass in a year, that can be done with bulking, we're talking about adding serious size while being at 7-8-10% body fat). Add tens of thousands of miles of running during a year and it's god damn impossible even if you're a Greek god. Also should be taken in consideration that football players somehow build that muscle mass during the off season, they magically gain some kgs of lean muscle in periods where they're not drug tested.

C'mon, let's grow up a bit. You don't think they'd use all the advantage of medical technology in an industry worth so many billions? Or should we believe that Cristiano is at 6% body fat as a natural for the last 8-12 years?

No periodisation cycle will have the aim of muscle hypertrophy in-season. This will be focused on during pre-season, as it's the best and most convenient time. Gym work in-season for a footballer is injury prevention and maintenance. They also get drug tested in the off-season as well so your point isn't valid.

Again, that's all anecdotal. I play semi-pro and can hover around 12% body fat (measured through DEXA) so very accurate, without 'feeling like shit'. It's easy to stay at a low body fat when your literally doing high intensity intermittent exercise for potentially 3 hours a day plus gym work. The metabolic demands for just even the warm up will be more than the workout some of the people who go the gym do most likely. You can't compare someone going the gym for 1-2 hours a day doing just resistance training to a professional athlete with access to the very best equipment.

 

[elmo]

I've been working out for a long long time and I can tell you that you can't reach that amount of low body fat naturally without feeling like shit. There is a very "normal" limit you can achieve while being natural, irrespective of you being a regular guy, a bodybuilder or a football player.

Staying at 8-10% body fat without steroids or SARM is nearly impossible, even if you hit the 0,001% genetic lottery. Football players and athletes stay around that body fat level almost 365/365 days, I really hope you know how difficult that is to manage, especially considering they're playing football during that period as well. There are people that go to the gym twice a day and spend 10 to 100K every 3 months on steroids, TST replacement and still can't manage to be consistently ripped.

I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse or rude, but thinking a professional athlete can stay at such a low body fat and still perform brilliantly all year long without banned substances is hilarious.

Take the Goretzka or Bale scenarios. They gained like 8-10kg of lean muscle mass in a year. That's fecking impossible to achieve naturally even if your only goal is to build muscle and you're not doing anything else (we're not talking about gaining 8-10 kg of muscle mass in a year, that can be done with bulking, we're talking about adding serious size while being at 7-8-10% body fat). Add tens of thousands of miles of running during a year and it's god damn impossible even if you're a Greek god. Also should be taken in consideration that football players somehow build that muscle mass during the off season, they magically gain some kgs of lean muscle in periods where they're not drug tested.

C'mon, let's grow up a bit. You don't think they'd use all the advantage of medical technology in an industry worth so many billions? Or should we believe that Cristiano is at 6% body fat as a natural for the last 8-12 years?

When you're earning millions, you don't need to chug boiled chicken breasts, egg whites and protein shakes, you get a chef to make something delicious while still adhering to the diet.

And you're wrong if you think footballers take peds to be ripped, they would take it for faster recovery between matches.

I could comfortably stay between 10-12% body fat when I was doing loads of sprinting sessions and swimming back when I was still playing basketball.

 

[Lastwolf]

Most are on 'roids, because its easy (and often practical given little preparation time)
but while juiced, some have physiques that are naturally attainable with good genetics and hard work.

Amell (top) I could see being natural, and even if he wasn't, that level of mass and leanness is attainable.
Ramsey (bottom) is clearly juiced.

There's a lot of actors that are juiced and look way shittier than Amell, which kinda proves my point.

Neither of those guys is that insane, it's not a miracle drug, you have to also put in work, if you take a bunch of roids and sit on your ass, you'll probably just get more fat.

Amell was a lead on 22 episode tv show, he had to be avaiable for 10-12 hours, 5-6 days a week for about 10 months of the year, while theres down time, I doubt he was blasting it in the gym 3 hours a day every day either. He also seemed to chill out on those shirtless scene after the first season, probably because of he wasn't in peak shape, so I dunno, maybe he is legit, I just doubt it.

Could you do it without assitance, sure, you could probably get within a reasonable margin even enough time/ dedication but from scratch we're talking years.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Isn't testing in the PL random? I feel like if it was widespread at least some would get caught out?

Yes, that is logical that you would think that. We have a saying here, translated in English it goes as a butcher approving his own meat. If they would test with the intention to really catch as many players as possible that would most likely hurt the brand, considering the commercial interest and how many games they want to air on streams/tv’s. The FA or any other sports want to offer the highest quality product possible.

phil jones and Blind after that final against Ajax in Sweden, they refused to comply with a drug test and the punishment was I believe 5 grand each and two game ban.

sports are a bilion dollars industry and it wouldn’t make sense from a business aspect to have your best athletes being caught in scandals which can hurt the brand and thus income. Doping scandals do happen publicly but I believe more are kept in the dark.

 

[Irwin99]

Why did this get bumped again? Are we scared Jack Grealish will suddenly start losing his hair?

 

[Acrobat7]

Why did this get bumped again? Are we scared Jack Grealish will suddenly start losing his hair?

It did get bumped because of a photoshopped picture of Alphonso Davies (who was always rather ripped and is still 19 yo).
So nothing actually happened besides Davies looking good.

 

[Adam_S]

Maybe the sprinters (Cycling sprinters) might take it. But i remember lance saying if you are going up the hills, it is all about oxygen.

Floyd Landis got his Tour de France win taken away because he tested positive for endogenous testosterone. Turned out he'd been using testosterone patches to help recover from giving blood for blood bags, f***ed something up and ended up with a contaminated blood bag.

 

[Dominos]

Take the Goretzka or Bale scenarios. They gained like 8-10kg of lean muscle mass in a year. That's fecking impossible to achieve naturally even if your only goal is to build muscle and you're not doing anything else (we're not talking about gaining 8-10 kg of muscle mass in a year, that can be done with bulking, we're talking about adding serious size while being at 7-8-10% body fat). Add tens of thousands of miles of running during a year and it's god damn impossible even if you're a Greek god. Also should be taken in consideration that football players somehow build that muscle mass during the off season, they magically gain some kgs of lean muscle in periods where they're not drug tested.

C'mon, let's grow up a bit. You don't think they'd use all the advantage of medical technology in an industry worth so many billions? Or should we believe that Cristiano is at 6% body fat as a natural for the last 8-12 years?

You're guessing muscle mass gained and body fat percentage based on a couple of pictures. What's your source for these numbers?

It wouldn't surprise me if teams are doping to improve recovery between games and endurance to aid their pressing/running stats, but a professional athlete having visible abs and some muscle that you'll see from plenty of gym bros isn't conclusive evidence that they're juicing.

 

[Infra-red]

Why did this get bumped again? Are we scared Jack Grealish will suddenly start losing his hair?

All this juicing and nobody thought to pick up some finasteride for Pep. The man looks like a boiled egg for fecks sake.

 

[Malkovich]

Watching the City game yesterday, nobody can convince me they are not using some type of PEDs.

 

[Gehrman]

All this juicing and nobody thought to pick up some finasteride for Pep. The man looks like a boiled egg for fecks sake.

Finasteride can cause sexual dysfunction and we just used to mock Pep for only being able to make it to a semi.