This has reached new heights.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
Not winning the CL with the most dominant team that ever played in the Bundesliga (and that is his achievement) is underwhelming, yes. But it was good enough to give him more time/extend his contract (which he refused).
If Pep was acting, he's bloody brilliant at it.
We were on the same level as Barcelona and Madrid squad-wise during his three years. Against Madrid we were favoured to go through, pretty much got smashed. Against Barca we had a lot of injuries to deal with and never looked close to their level, although this is by no way something "impossible" to do, as Liverpool showed against Barca for instance. Against Atletico we were favorites and also probably the better team and should have gone to the final. It was comparable to how we lost against PSG this year though, not some freak match like against Chelsea in 2012 for example. And the fact that - the round before - we were already extremely lucky to defeat Juventus with two goals in the last 5 minutes of the second game, and then advancing during extra time while not creating anything the whole regular game time isn't something to overlook. As a whole, those three years we were losing (or at times looked completely helpless) against every single team that is on the same or higher level would make it rather underwhelming, yeah.
Out of Kimmich or Lewa, maybe Davies, who walks directly into that City first XI? From City's first XI, KDB, Dias or in-form Laporte and Walker would walk into our first XI. City also has better depth, which makes their squad a bit stronger, as I've said.
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Maybe he's just channeling something different. Because that's authentic. I still think what the father is saying quite logical - why praise him repeatedly so emphatically again and again when you clearly don't fancy him.
This basically sums it up nicely. While I won't say that "not winning" the CL is the main issue, but rather HOW we lost and played in general.
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i.e. the Pep and Klopp love in that happens whenever those teams are close in a title race. The more Pep praises someone the more he hates them.
Excellent.
Against Juventus in the away game, you're forgetting that Bayern went into that game with only 2 natural defenders as they had a lot of injured players and completely dominated Juventus, how Juventus came out of that game with a draw was a miracle.
Funny you mentioned Laporte and not Stones, since Stones kept Laporte out of the starting lineup. But since both teams play basically the same formation, let's compare their starting lineups...
- Neuer vs Ederson : Neuer the much better GK, Ederson just has a slightly better distribution with his foot
- Pavard vs Walker : Walker is faster and better defensively, but offers absolutely nothing offensively. Pavard is great offensively but he's definitely better than Walker in that aspect. And both teams play a style that requires a great output from the full backs, so I don't Bayern will be willing to replace Pavard with Walker.
- Stones vs Boateng : No winner in this one IMO
- Dias vs Alaba : Everyone would have said Alaba before this season, but right now it's Dias
- Davies : no explanation needed here i think
- Kimich vs Rodri : Kimich
- Goretzka vs Gundogan : No winner here IMO (though i feel Goretzka offers more security defensively)
- Muller vs KDB : KDB though any team will be happy to have Muller too
- Gnabry vs Mahrez : Gnabry (more decisive and can play as a striker too)
- Coman vs Foden : Foden right now, but just like in the case of Dias, everyone would have said Coman before this season.
Lewandowski vs Jesus/Aguero : Lewandowski, no explanation needed.
As for the bench ...
- Hernandez vs Laporte : no winner here at the CB position IMO, but Hernandez is also good at the LB position where he's also better than a player like Mendy.
- Musiala vs Silva : Musiala was better this season
- Sané vs Sterling : 2 very annoying players, but it's clear that Sané has more talent. But I'll say no winner here
- Sule vs Ake : Sule
- Sarr vs Cancelo : Cancelo
- Fernandinho vs Tolisso : Tolisso, he offers more going forward
Is there anything you don't agree with here?
So so sad.
A sad sad day, not just for Pep and City, but for everyone, English football and football in general.
But his time was up and he's gone to a better place now.
He was so nice. Just sooooo nice!
Oh, I agree that they got rather lucky in the first game, but we got lucky in the second game (they also had a wrong offside goal called against Pogba btw.). Still, it was very close despite us being huge favorites for that matchup, I'd say comparably to something like City against Spurs for instance. It would have been an upset if we went out that game.
And of course I'm aware that Stones kept out Laporte, that's why I said in-form Laporte. I'd personally disagree regarding several positions (Neuer/Ederson, Pavard/Walker, Gnabry/Mahrez, Musiala/Silva, Dinho/Tolisso, and if you take players based on this season alone, then Davies has not been in top form). You should probably know that comparing line-ups position for position is completely meaningless though, especially when there are so many very close choices in there. Both squads are very strong and there is not much between both, that's why I've said I only personally see City's as a bit stronger.
Still, I don't even know why we are having this discussion TBH. All in all, I think I've stated my points regarding why it was a rather underwhelming CL campaign (2 losses against both Madrid sides where we were arguably favourites twice, one loss against a Barcelona who were even resting Suarez for the last 45 minutes in the Allianz arena because we were not even looking anything close to their level), and why we are not on the same level as City financially (they spent like what, 4 times as much as we did since Guardiola joined? And we probably had even more of a rebuilding needed). Why is it so hard to accept that this is completely reasonable to see it that way? I don't think there is anybody doubting Guardiola to be one of the best coaches currently, just that many, myself included, don't see him as the world's best as there are quite a few who didn't do any worse than he did while working with literally half or less the possibilities he has.
Him crying and Tyler doing his party piece, what a send off that was. So heartfelt and touching, very emotional.
Just the best. The best footballer Man City ever had. One of the best we've ever seen.
Hardly ever see the like of him again.
Doubt he was acting. Aguero himself said pep told him you shoot only go to barcelona and not look at any other offers. And that's what he did.
Definitely love and respect there between them
You had more rebuilding to do? When?
City had the oldest squad in the PL when Pep joined them. It's objectively false that Bayern had more rebuilding to do, and Bayern never needed to spend the way City did.
And you're really saying that Ederson is better than Neuer? And that Mahrez has been as good for City as Gnabry has been for Bayern? Wow...
"Objectively false", what the...
We had to replace Ribéry/Robben, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, in additional to injury-ridden/aging Martinez/Boateng/Dante/Mandzukic. Those were pretty much all of our most important players bar Neuer/Müller. We "replaced" Ribéry/Robben by slowly building up Coman and Gnabry (who was too bad for some relegation material teams in England), we bought Sané who was a bench player at City, we luckily got Lewa on a free transfer as Mandzukic replacement, we bought Kimmich/Goretzka/Tolisso/Thiago for basically peanuts to replace Schweini/Martinez, we built up Davies as a replacement for Alaba who moved in as the main CB and is leaving this season. The only positions we invested big were our center backs (L. Hernandez for €80m, Hummels for €35m who was sold and soon Upamecano for €50m) as well as Pavard for €35m as CB/RB.
Now let's look at City: when Pep arrived, they had Sterling, Agüero, Kompany, D. Silva, Fernandinho, Yaya as their spine. Bar Sterling, who went the season before as one of the most expensive transfers for a winger ever, all the other players were regarded as one of the very best in their respective positions and all but Yaya were in their absolute prime years. They bought four new wingers for a combined €200m (Sané, B. Silva, Mahrez, F. Torres), bought KDB as the most expensive transfer in the BL at that time (€75m, and we actually passed because he was to expensive), bought Rodri and Gündogan for another combined €100m. And even the center backs, where we invested the largest share of the money, City bought Stones, Dias, Laporte, where one of them is only a bench player, for more than €200m, bought Walker/Cancelo/Mendy, all world record transfers for full backs, for another €200m. This "rebuilding" process is absolutely ridiculous and we are certainly not able to do that kind of stuff. We needed to replace most of our starters, with the majority of them being amongst our best ever players. We built most of our players instead of splashing 60m each for the starter and the back up. We can at times spend big money for a transfer, but not even close to the frequency that City did, since we do not have unlimited cash available.
Seriously, I'm trying to have a normal discussion, but why are some of the Guardiola "fans" acting as smartas*es on the internet?
Again, are you even trying to read what I am writing? Where did I say that I think those Bayern players were worse than their counterparts? I literally said that those players were close to each-other ability-wise currently and it's hard to compare them (Neuer is super old, and Gnabry would almost certainly never start for a Guardiola side, even Müller was struggling to start FFS).It's super hard to respond to your comments. You are literally just making up things and I don't know what is there to argue against my two opinions regarding underwhelming CL campaign, and us not being able to compete with City financially. I am still not understanding why you are coming up with all those points TBH.
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Mention one thing I made up?"Objectively false", what the...
We had to replace Ribéry/Robben, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, in additional to injury-ridden/aging Martinez/Boateng/Dante/Mandzukic. Those were pretty much all of our most important players bar Neuer/Müller. We "replaced" Ribéry/Robben by slowly building up Coman and Gnabry (who was too bad for some relegation material teams in England), we bought Sané who was a bench player at City, we luckily got Lewa on a free transfer as Mandzukic replacement, we bought Kimmich/Goretzka/Tolisso/Thiago for basically peanuts to replace Schweini/Martinez, we built up Davies as a replacement for Alaba who moved in as the main CB and is leaving this season. The only positions we invested big were our center backs (L. Hernandez for €80m, Hummels for €35m who was sold and soon Upamecano for €50m) as well as Pavard for €35m as CB/RB.
Now let's look at City: when Pep arrived, they had Sterling, Agüero, Kompany, D. Silva, Fernandinho, Yaya as their spine. Bar Sterling, who went the season before as one of the most expensive transfers for a winger ever, all the other players were regarded as one of the very best in their respective positions and all but Yaya were in their absolute prime years. They bought four new wingers for a combined €200m (Sané, B. Silva, Mahrez, F. Torres), bought KDB as the most expensive transfer in the BL at that time (€75m, and we actually passed because he was to expensive), bought Rodri and Gündogan for another combined €100m. And even the center backs, where we invested the largest share of the money, City bought Stones, Dias, Laporte, where one of them is only a bench player, for more than €200m, bought Walker/Cancelo/Mendy, all world record transfers for full backs, for another €200m. This "rebuilding" process is absolutely ridiculous and we are certainly not able to do that kind of stuff. We needed to replace most of our starters, with the majority of them being amongst our best ever players. We built most of our players instead of splashing 60m each for the starter and the back up. We can at times spend big money for a transfer, but not even close to the frequency that City did, since we do not have unlimited cash available.
Seriously, I'm trying to have a normal discussion, but why are some of the Guardiola "fans" acting as smartas*es on the internet?
It's super hard to respond to your comments. You are literally just making up things and I don't know what is there to argue against my two opinions regarding underwhelming CL campaign, and us not being able to compete with City financially. I am still not understanding why you are coming up with all those points TBH.
You literally said that City had a better team than Bayern earlier. Also Imagine actually trying to argue that Ederson is as good as Neuer for Christ sake.
Why wouldn't Gnabry start for Pep when players like Sané and Sterling did?
By the way, Yaya had passed his prime when Pep arrived, Kompany was always injured and barely played under Pep at City, and Sterling (who by the way wasn't prolific) just had 2 extremely average seasons and a disastrous Euro campaign and was basically the laughing stock in England before Pep arrived. Yet you say I'm the one who's making things up here? Please...
Poor Bayern not being able to compete financially. Bayern don't like spending Big, not that they can't.
Pretty much everyone in our FO appreciate the job Pep did and he was begged to stay like no other coach in recent times
Even after sacking Ancelotti, Bayern still sought his opinion on who to hire.
He failed to win in Europe in 3 seasons which was a big flaw. Probably our FO realized that the CL is an incredibly hard competition to win which you need a bit of luck to
A club as big as Juventus has not won in 25yrs.
Bayern got 90, 79 and 88 points with him. That is impressive and they failed to reach 88+ points since he left. But the season before Pep joined they did not only win the triple but also win the league with 91 points, 98-18 GD and a 25 point lead.
So i would disagree with you. Pep maintained this level of dominance in the league but Heynckes started it in his last year and Pep did „only“ maintain it. But to be fair their 12/13 season in the league was so good that there was not really a room for improvement. To stay on this level is also an achievement.
Actually we don't disagree but maybe I did not explain my point sufficiently. Bayern were always able to win the league (and Heynckes team was near perfection) but they rarely managed to win it more than once or maybe twice in a row. That series of winning the league all the time and don't fall back started with Pep, he was able to keep their level in the league for years and that was never done before in that way (but has been maintained since which is a bit sad for the league but just shows how much Bayern improved domestically during the last decade).
Yes.
The Heynckes Bayern is somewhat overestimated. Not in the sense that the quality in the treble-winning team wasn't there, because it obviously was. But for whatever reason, people look at what the club achieved in one season and take that as the natural state of things, as if inertia was going to carry Bayern Munich to three more trebles until Guardiola the Tinkerer came and fecked it all up.
Since they won their first Bundesliga title in 1969 they've won 31 titles in about 50 years.
Won 15 of the last 20, including 6 doubles and a treble before he arrived.
So how exactly has he ensured a level of dominance that they didn't have before?
Because when you divide 20 by 2, you get 10. They have won 9 out of the last 10. That means in the previous 10, they won 6. 9 is bigger than 6. Therefore, the 'level of dominance' of 9 out of 10 is bigger than the level of dominance of 6 out of 10.
I really don't get why people do this stuff. There are plenty of easy arguments to use against Guardiola, absolutely no need to go for the 2+2=5 ones.
Really? That's what you take from that.
A team that has won 30 out of the last 50 league titles, but it's the guy who managed them for 3 seasons that elevated them so far above everyone else in that league?
They won a double and a treble the two seasons before he came in. He won 3 titles including 2 doubles in 3 seasons. Since he left they've won 4 titles including a double and a treble.
So, under him they win more league games and get more points, but they still win the league, just like the guys before him and after him. If anything he just maintained their status as a dominant team in the Bundesliga and Germany, which really isn't that hard to do and then he underperformed in Europe.
Well that is the point everybody makes here at the moment, we all agree, so I really don't understand the ongoing argument here?
Of course they are fake tears.
Pep was fake crying his eyes out when he left Bayern as well, he is a pro at the art of forcing tears.
Most Spanish and South American's are experts at fake crying.
Fake tears = Wall to wall media coverage "oh look he cares so much, it means so much to him!".
No tears = nothing.
The question of whether Guardiola is responsible for their domestic superiority over the last decade, merely contributed to it, or was carried by it, is an interesting question and worth discussing. Instead of making this argument, you've decided to die in the hill of '9 consecutive titles isn't any different than winning the title every other year.' It's just wrong. There is an enormous difference between winning 60% of titles and winning 90%.
No, they didn't. They won a treble the season before he came in. They won nothing the season before that, and a Supercup the season before.
Heynckes didn't win the league, or anything else, in his first year. He was the guy before him. As for the guys after him, they have won the league, which suggests Guardiola doesn't deserve that much credit. However, two of them have been fired early in their second season. So we don't actually know if Bayern can appoint anyone and win leagues without doing much. The club has not allowed us to know.
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I'm not dying on any hill here.
I may have been wrong on some of the trophies they won. But the point is the same, they've won about 30 out of 50 titles.
He's won 3 titles in a league where a historically dominant team has become slightly more dominant, nothing more nothing less. From my time watching football the most they've gone without a league is about 3 years.
He just did what he and any other Bayern manager has been expected to do for 50 years now. You can break it down and say they won more this decade than the last and that's fine, but all Bayern have done is what they've always done. Keep on winning and buying the best players from anyone that shows any sort of challenge to them. Ensuring they weaken the opposition so they can keep winning. Just so happens they've built such a squad of players that nobody is able to get near them.
Does anyone ever really expect Bayern not to win the league?
Does anyone say that Celtic were significantly transformed by Neil Lennon, Ronny Delia or Brendan Rodgers on their way to 9 in a row or whatever it was?
Not to mention that Bayern's apparent increased dominance happens to coincide with a time during which their rivals are arguably weaker than they have been for a while, without coaches like Klopp to drag them forward. Again, Guardiola is a great coach but I don't think he had any bearing on Bayern's supposed increased dominance. That came about as a result of rivals falling away, the other 'top' BL teams losing top coaches as well as many of their top players. For Bayern not to be utterly dominant, when you compare their squad to the rest of the BL, would be the bigger surprise.
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I think it is a bit overstated how much Pep has "failed" in Europe. Of course, if we go in with the idea that the only reason he was hired by Bayern and City was because he would win the Champions League, then of course he has "failed". But looking at it objectively, he hasn't really underperformed that much (really only the previous two seasons before this one). Since he left Barcelona he has never once clearly had the best team in Europe (during his Bayern time, Barcelona and Real Madrid were both ahead of Bayern, without any doubt). Maybe this season he has had it, but truthfully there's not much in it between the City and Bayern and even Chelsea has a fantastic squad.
Besides, it's quite clear by now that his teams are more suited to domestic dominance. There's no shame in that, the GOATs teams were the same after all. The Champions League is a hard competition to win, and there are often small margins that decide whether you win or lose. He might win it next year, but he probably won't. There is only a select few managers that managed to win three titles and two of them hasn't exactly done much apart from winning those titles to be honest.
Besides, it's quite clear by now that his teams are more suited to domestic dominance. There's no shame in that, the GOATs teams were the same after all. The Champions League is a hard competition to win, and there are often small margins that decide whether you win or lose. He might win it next year, but he probably won't. There is only a select few managers that managed to win three titles and two of them hasn't exactly done much apart from winning those titles to be honest.
someone pointed out in their treble season he had 91pts +80 goal difference! That was their highest including the 3 Pep seasons. What Pep did well was wrap up the league title super early
I think he is great coach too, the football his teams play in phenomenal at times. But, I also think his achievements are a bit overstated at times. Like some people crediting him with Bayern's dominance in Germany or changing the way football is played.
He took a Barca side that was already one of the best teams in Spain and they became the best team in Spain and Europe, but they had achieved success before and also after he left. The majority of that team also had great success with Spain, there was a fantastic group of players in Spain including Messi who all came through about the same time. So it wasn't all just him that developed those players.
Took over the best team in Germany and they remained the best team in Germany.
Took one of the best and most expensive squads of players in England. Spent nearly £800m and they are still just the best team in England.
Also, his record in the transfer market at all three clubs isn't really the best.
No one has said the teams he took over never won anything before him, but they weren't playing the same brand of dominant football he made them play and the way the game is being played in general has clearly been influenced to a certain degree by his style.
I mean, other coaches, specialists and great players saying this must know what they're talking about when they say this, don't you think so?
He isn't considered a great coach just because he wins trophies.
Mourinho hit 100 points with +89 goal difference in his second season with Real Madrid.
He will always be more popular because of his Barca connections. Personally I think Klopp influenced the game more than him.
Nope. Every season with City since he came bar this one. City got to Semis before he took over. He inherited that squad, added to it and knocked out in round 16 by a young Monaco team then out in quarters 5-1 by Liverpool, then out in quarters to Spurs then out in quarters to Lyon. Also Bayern were at the same level of Real and Barcelona. they added Thiago, Xabi Alonso and Lewandowski to the champions who beat Barcelona 7-0
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Barcelona added Suarez Neymar
Madrid added Bale Kroos
who were probably better than the quality Bayern added given their transfer fees(Bale Suarez, Neymar). Not a 22yr Old Thiago or a 34yr old Xabi
It wasn't like those other teams were static too
I don't think so. The fact that City got the semis the year before is rather immaterial as the quality of side was better measured by the fact that they made top 4 on goal difference to a poor United side. I don't think going out to red hot Monaco or Liverpool shoud be seen as underperforming either. It's something that can happen, simple as that. They should have beaten Spurs and Lyon, absolutely.
As for Bayern, they might have had similar depth as Real or Barca (probably better than Barca) but their first eleven was not at the level of those sides, which is what is most important in the knock out rounds. Sure, they thumped Barca a few years before, but things change and no two games are the same. The team Barca fielded on those final knockout games in the CL 2015 was like something from a game. On paper, it's probably an even stronger team than Pep's Barcelona side from 2011, it's absolutely ridiculous. There's like five players in that side you genuinely could say they have been one of, if not, the best players in the world in their position over the past decade. And on top of that they had Messi. If the Barca side of 2014-2017 didn't at least get one CL it would have been a monumental underachievement.
Making one CL semi is not a sign of strength until you make it consistently. In a knockout any team can have a lucky run. Lyon made the CL semi when they were 7th in the French league, Leipzig made the CL semi, Ajax made the semi, Roma made it all in the last 3-4 seasons. Will anyone expect those teams to better those records or they are failures
In the Abu Dhabi project, City for many years didn't even make it beyond group stages even with a strong team, 2015 was the first time they made it to quarter-final and went to semi
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Please explain how Klopp has influenced the game more if you don't mind. I understand prefering Klopp or any other coach, that's personal preference. But this is the first time I'm hearing someone say that Klopp has influenced the game more than Pep.
As for him being popular because of his Barca connections, why don't the other ex coaches of Barcelona share the same fate then? Including Louis Enrique who won the treble with them too...
I think Guardiola has had a very profound influence on how the game has changed over the last decade. Football can be pretty cyclical and things that his Barcelona did so well like the emphasis on keeping the ball, total football, intense efforts to recover the ball after losing it, the false 9 role and firm commitment to playing it out from the back are things that have all appeared in football before, but the dominant success of his Barcelona side definitely made all of these methods more common once again within the wider footballing community. We can see many of this implemented with the premiership when we compare an average game now to one a decade ago.
This isn’t to say Guardiola has been the only factor behind these changes, he himself has been open about Bielsa’s methods influence his own approach to the game. Their was also the domination of the Spanish international team and the ethos that also ran through a lot of young coaches. Martinez as a rookie implemented a version at Swansea in the 00’s, and that was symptomatic of the trend in the following years as more coaches in the lower leagues were willing to play a more expansive passing style of football.
Klopp has also been very influential, a lot of his style has been inspired by Wolfgang Frank (his Mainz manager), who in turn was heavily inspired by legendary manager
Arrigo Sacchi. I feel that one of the advantages of this style of play is the ability to nullify a technically superior team. By focusing on clever pressing movement and using the team in a holistic manner, they’re able to play to a level above their talents.
I think one of the reasons its become so ubiquitous in football now is that it’s easier to implement compared to how Guardiola uses his team. Guardiola improved many of his players, but they’re all expected to be very comfortable on the ball, press resistant /good at pressing and able to play the ball well. These players aren’t super common especially when we’re talking at the very elite level of football. Whereas if you have a squad that has stamina and intelligence you’re able to press in a very effective manner, and after winning the ball attack in the opponents during the transitional stage. It’s a good core to begin with and can be effective even when playing better sides.
I think both managers are brilliant, and while obviously building on the framework of previous legendary managers, they’ve also both been innovative and continue to grow their approach.
This isn’t to say Guardiola has been the only factor behind these changes, he himself has been open about Bielsa’s methods influence his own approach to the game. Their was also the domination of the Spanish international team and the ethos that also ran through a lot of young coaches. Martinez as a rookie implemented a version at Swansea in the 00’s, and that was symptomatic of the trend in the following years as more coaches in the lower leagues were willing to play a more expansive passing style of football.
Klopp has also been very influential, a lot of his style has been inspired by Wolfgang Frank (his Mainz manager), who in turn was heavily inspired by legendary manager
Arrigo Sacchi. I feel that one of the advantages of this style of play is the ability to nullify a technically superior team. By focusing on clever pressing movement and using the team in a holistic manner, they’re able to play to a level above their talents.
I think one of the reasons its become so ubiquitous in football now is that it’s easier to implement compared to how Guardiola uses his team. Guardiola improved many of his players, but they’re all expected to be very comfortable on the ball, press resistant /good at pressing and able to play the ball well. These players aren’t super common especially when we’re talking at the very elite level of football. Whereas if you have a squad that has stamina and intelligence you’re able to press in a very effective manner, and after winning the ball attack in the opponents during the transitional stage. It’s a good core to begin with and can be effective even when playing better sides.
I think both managers are brilliant, and while obviously building on the framework of previous legendary managers, they’ve also both been innovative and continue to grow their approach.