I’d argue yes because 5 titles in 6 years and 3 titles in a row while competing against this Liverpool side would be an amazing achievement.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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The level of stupid posts in here is off the charts.
Pep's niche is winning in multiple countries, which is a fabulous achievement, however, Don Carlo has bettered that, as unlike Pep, Carlo has won a league title in the top 5 leagues, and has won a Champions League, with the chance to hopefully, hopefully, make it 2 very soon.
What Clough achieved with Forest, if done just the once, I could sort of understand, being put down as a fluke, like to a degree Leicester winning the Premier League, however, Clough won back to back European Cups, a sensational achievement, made even more remarkable due to it being Forest that he did it with.
People put down Zidane's managerial achievements, due to him managing Real Madrid to get them, but if that is the case, then surely winning at the complete opposite end of the spectrum with Forest only amplifies what Clough achieved?!
Peps the best cheque book manager in the World. Also hes done amazingly well at such a small club.
People can complain all they like that he's only ever coached top teams. Well, he turned Barca into a top one and as a result, all the top teams offered themselves to him. What is he supposed to do, say no to Bayern? Why the hell would anyone say no to Bayern? When was the last time a coach chose to go downwards to "prove" themselves, when they could go up instead?
Those guys did incredible things, but can any one of them say that they won the treble in their very first season of coaching? Did they win everything there is to win in their first calendar year? Did they push the development of a squad of young players to such a level that those players are now mentioned as possibly the greatest team of all time, the players themselves attesting to his influence? When those very same players were trophyless only the season prior? They did not.
Maybe you forget, maybe you're young, but Pep's Barca were such a force, every CL game against them was considered a foregone conclusion, forget about it, survive if you can, lose with some pride, try not to embarrass yourself. It was an incredible time really. Every team started playing keep-up, copycat over Barca. Pep literally changed the game, and his effect on it is permanent now. His influence on technique, passing, possession in top-level football today is unmatched, he has no equal on this. He did not build a club from nothing because he never had to, and he did create possibly the greatest team of all time, and positively influenced the game forever like no-one else has.
Ironically, I'd back him in a lower-level team. All the conditions required to raise the level of a team, he has in him already. He has an excellent record in improving the individual levels of his players and moulding players into a structured team.
These are obviously great names but this is a serious disservice to not mention him in the same breath as them.
Those guys did incredible things, but can any one of them say that they won the treble in their very first season of coaching? Did they win everything there is to win in their first calendar year? Did they push the development of a squad of young players to such a level that those players are now mentioned as possibly the greatest team of all time, the players themselves attesting to his influence? When those very same players were trophyless only the season prior? They did not.
Maybe you forget, maybe you're young, but Pep's Barca were such a force, every CL game against them was considered a foregone conclusion, forget about it, survive if you can, lose with some pride, try not to embarrass yourself. It was an incredible time really. Every team started playing keep-up, copycat over Barca. Pep literally changed the game, and his effect on it is permanent now. His influence on technique, passing, possession in top-level football today is unmatched, he has no equal on this. He did not build a club from nothing because he never had to, and he did create possibly the greatest team of all time, and positively influenced the game forever like no-one else has.
Ironically, I'd back him in a lower-level team. All the conditions required to raise the level of a team, he has in him already. He has an excellent record in improving the individual levels of his players and moulding players into a structured team.
I love SAF but it's not clear and obvious
All that Pep did was copy and emulate what his mentor Cruyyff did, and just add on to it, he didn't invent a new way of playing, or anything like that.
I don't think Carlo has bettered it. He has won in more countries but he hasn't dominated any of the leagues like Guardiola has, winning 3 or 4 in each nation. In the CL, Carlo has the most all time (tied with Zidane) and has a chance to go into first place on his own. This is obviously in his favour but he has been managing for a lot longer than Pep and Pep has a chance to win more CLs. On balance, at the moment I would rank Pep ahead of Carlo, particularly because of the stylistic impact Pep has had. But I respect Carlo for sure.
Amazing achievement no doubt, but football was very different then than it is now. What Clough did would not be possible now, in the superclub era., with unprecedented movement of players and massive financial disparities. Also, those successes (and the Derby league win) are not the entirety of the Clough story. There's also taking Forest down and his destructive alcoholism, culminating in that assault on a fan. Also, you could question how good he was without Peter Taylor.
So again, on balance, I don't think I'd put him above Pep, although I don't know how the rest of Pep's career will pan out.
I personally don't put down Zidane's achievement, I think that what he did is amazing, no matter who he was managing.. No one else has even gone back to back in the CL era and he pulls off a threepeat?! Insane.
His achievements with Aberdeen are great achievement but football was very different then and much more of a level playing field so it can not be compared to today. Back then Notts Forrest got promoted won the league next season then won 2 European Cups on the bounce. You had Ipswich Town and IFK Gotheburg winning the UEFA Cup. And some team called Mechellin from Belgium won the cup winners cup.
More of sporting and romantic swashbuckling era. Nowadays it's a big X clubs and no other team has a chance to win anything.
I think he did invent a new way of playing. False 9s, overloading the midfield, 3 second winning the ball back rule for his team, possession and movement at all cost. He certainly brought the game forward.
They’ve just scored 99 league goals without a striker.
Jesus is a striker.
He started 21 league games and most of them on the wing.
No, I’d say most of them were as a striker.
nah, most of them we're starting on the left in a 3, he started a few but he's not an out and out striker
The left? I’d say he started more games as the 9 than at RW, but can’t remember him starting any as a LW.
haha yeah, sorry right, yesterday he started through the middle but even without checking lineups for the season he would start on the wing in place of Mahrez but when coming on would play as a 9
but he's not a striker, he even says that himself
Evra had a bit of a crack back at him today in his Insta stories. Congratulated them and Liverpool and then went back to Pep saying he still hasn't won the champions League without Xavi, Iniesta and Messi
Needs calling out. Not sure why people are so reluctant/scared to do it more often? He's no manager of Brentford or Brighton with a plucky story.
Well it's a dumb logic IMO because any reasonable person who follows football and isn't just trying to discredit Pep with fallacious arguments, know that no longer having Xavi, Iniesta and Messi isn't the reason he hasn't won the CL since leaving Barcelona.
It's surely more complex than that, but i get that it's easier to just look for simpler explications without contexte.
Are you still drunk from yesterday's epic celebrations?
You do realize only 3 managers in history have won it more than him?
I agree. People are happy to call out every other manager but he seems to be off limits (to be honest, a lot of criticism of City in all areas is overlooked). Klopp is a great manager but is called out cos he hasn't won the league enough times despite being so close several times, but he is close to winning another Champions League/been in more finals in the last 10 years or so than Pep.
I think Pep is a great manager but he seems to escape almost any criticism and its baffling. Almost every manager, even when winning, gets a lot of criticism - look at Fergie, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancelotti, Conte, Tuchel, Klopp even
The argument is he hasn't won it since despite having whatever he has wanted given to him packaged up with ribbons
Deliberately using diversionary tactics. You know full well I'm talking about his billion dollar stint. There is no excuse to not have at least won it once.
Klopp, for all the PL excuses, has won that once at least. Pep should have done likewise in Europe.
"Never won it without Xavi, Iniesta and Messi"
As if that Barcelona squad was the envy of Europe when he took over.
As if that Barcelona squad was the envy of Europe when he took over.
Why couldn't SAF be succesful at Bayern? Its a one team league. I could win the title at Bayern
This is true, Pep is great but his time at Bayern was a holiday by design.
That's ridiculous. Diversionary tactics my arse. you are trying to dismiss part of a career because it doesn't suit your agenda. Its ridiculous.
Klopp hasn't failed in the PL either just losing to a consistently better team.
I really don't like Liverpool so I'm gonna say Paisley was shit without the best keeper in the world Clemence. Can't win the CL without him. Fraud.
Zidane obviously nothing without Ronaldo too... Or I'll only judge Kenny Daglish on his 2nd spell at your guys? Do you see how stupid that looks?
Pep has been a manager for 13 seasons - 10 League Titles and 2 Champions Leagues you can post as much nonsense as you want but its lacks credibility because its clearly the best managerial record of all time.
Or show me some better managerial records...
Imagine having a record winning 80+% of league titles and win one out of every 6 CL's competed in and being questioned.
Yesterday must have stung when you're back on the Pep is a fraud train.
Saw a lot of posts saying something like "It's the strongest squad that wins the leagues, not pep, it's Pep who loses the CLs."
I'm quite curious about this strong squad. I don't think any other manager in the league could take the group beyond 85-90 points - Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, ... It seems to be a strong squad because it's built for Pep, and because they have him to lead it:
The CBs are very good, but inferior to Liverpool's, and a normal manager might equally prefer Chelsea's.
For a normal manager, the fullbacks are much inferior to Liverpool's and equal to Chelsea.
There is no proper 9, let alone a backup.
Rodri is a proper DM but with a niche style, most managers would need a more energetic tackler beside him, and there's only 35 year-old Fernandinho for that.
There's a ton of attacking midfielders and wingers - KdB, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Mahrez, Sterling, Foden, Grealish - but I'm not sure any other manager would have use for so many, and might not figure out how they fit together. Even for Pep it looks like one too many.
In short, it's an unbalanced squad with insane depth for the AM/wing positions, a total lack of conventional strikers, a very specific type of fullback and DM, and very good CBs. It's a good squad. But in most others' hands, I don't think this is a definite title win, let alone a 4 titles out of 5 squad.
A random coach would definitely take Liverpool's first eleven over theirs - the one clear upgrade is KdB>Thiago, but most coaches would love a spine of Salah, Mane, Diaz, Fabinho, VVD, Robertson, it's conventionally much better than Mahrez, Foden, Sterling, Rodri, Dias, Zinchenko. And Liverpool's depth is not so terrible either after adding Jota, Diaz, and Konate. They're fecked if TAA and Salah get injured, but they have decent cover for most other positions.
So, basically, I think Pep's insane league consistency isn't just because of his squad, he's made this weird squad into monsters.
I'm quite curious about this strong squad. I don't think any other manager in the league could take the group beyond 85-90 points - Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, ... It seems to be a strong squad because it's built for Pep, and because they have him to lead it:
The CBs are very good, but inferior to Liverpool's, and a normal manager might equally prefer Chelsea's.
For a normal manager, the fullbacks are much inferior to Liverpool's and equal to Chelsea.
There is no proper 9, let alone a backup.
Rodri is a proper DM but with a niche style, most managers would need a more energetic tackler beside him, and there's only 35 year-old Fernandinho for that.
There's a ton of attacking midfielders and wingers - KdB, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Mahrez, Sterling, Foden, Grealish - but I'm not sure any other manager would have use for so many, and might not figure out how they fit together. Even for Pep it looks like one too many.
In short, it's an unbalanced squad with insane depth for the AM/wing positions, a total lack of conventional strikers, a very specific type of fullback and DM, and very good CBs. It's a good squad. But in most others' hands, I don't think this is a definite title win, let alone a 4 titles out of 5 squad.
A random coach would definitely take Liverpool's first eleven over theirs - the one clear upgrade is KdB>Thiago, but most coaches would love a spine of Salah, Mane, Diaz, Fabinho, VVD, Robertson, it's conventionally much better than Mahrez, Foden, Sterling, Rodri, Dias, Zinchenko. And Liverpool's depth is not so terrible either after adding Jota, Diaz, and Konate. They're fecked if TAA and Salah get injured, but they have decent cover for most other positions.
So, basically, I think Pep's insane league consistency isn't just because of his squad, he's made this weird squad into monsters.
I've never said Pep is a fraud and I have repeated many times before he's produced the best footballing team I have seen in my life including that Brazil side. Everything he's done with Barca he deserves but that's now filed away under 'Pep1'.
Now for his current time he's being judged on the amount he's spent and the negligence he's shown by not winning the CL even once. I'm sure you can respond to that. As for Klopp nearly winning, even to an unstoppable team like City, is still finishing second. He has been called out on it. So calling 'Pep2' out is fair.
Two different types. Pep doesn’t have the patience to rebuild a team which it seems he gets slated for yet I don’t know if there has ever been a coach who could walk right into any glamour team in the world with immense pressure and win right away. I understand the talent is there on these teams and mgrs are supposed to win, but saying it and doing it are totally different. Pep just does it. His weakness is Europe as was SAFs. They just couldn’t win enough with the teams they had. Glaring.
I’m sure if you gave Guardiola the free by that Liverpool have basically had to the final in this years knockout rounds then City would be in that final. But he didn’t get the luxury of needing to beat lesser sides like Villarreal. That’s cup football though, there’s quite a bit of luck involved, which is why hedging his whole reputation on a cup competition looks really silly and just a tad bitter.
Liverpool has better players than Man City in almost all positions. The only one that's definitely better in Man City is Kevin de Bruyne. Who's better in City than TAA? Virgil? Mo Salah? Fabinho? Robertson? Luis Díaz?
It’s depth. We didn’t get Diaz until the second half of the season. I believe we win the league with Diaz from the start.
Good points you made. And don't get me wrong I love Guardiola and I wish we had never lost him. He is, IMO, the best coach in the world. Having said, even in the good old days at Barca we had a word "Guardioladas" to refer to the weird tactics Pep would sometimes try.
Seems what Evra said has gotten to him really bad.. He's crying about it.
A League-winning machine; exactly the kind of dominance we had with SAF in 92-01 and 06-13.
If Pep ever goes back to Barca, Madrid will be fecked.
If Pep ever goes back to Barca, Madrid will be fecked.
He's by many considered better than Pep despite finishing above him 1 time out of a possible 8.
Not really, I give pep a lot of credit but he either needs an exorbitant amount of money to shape the squad in his preferred image or an already well oiled and capable machine which Barcelona at its current state certainly isn't , and I will hold that postulation as long as he proves me otherwise.
But again he could always prove the likes of me as mere fools , I won't complain
He seems thin skinned and insecure. Despite all he's won people still question him and he gets so close yet so far to the champions league. Moreover, people will always claim he's a chequebook manager. Klopp despite being less successful has fewer question marks above him.
There's that voice that won't shut up "you can't do it without Xavi, Messi and Iniesta"