Players who pass the eye test but fail the data comparisons?

[Fortitude]

Does it happen? Can you name any players who fit the bill?

I find posts in the transfer threads about potential midfield buys eventually get to the point of data comparison minutiae where players who do well according to the data are compared and contrasted to those who, at least at first glance, look really good.

I'm not going to pretend Fred's performance yesterday isn't the reason I'm making this thread, reason being, according to the data, he comes out looking really good and accomplished, whereas, according to what my eyes tell me (and what I've majority posted over the years about him) he is erratic and prone to numerous errors that state, to me, that the data for him doesn't carry as much value as it should because it's untrustworthy if not letting you know just how erratic a player you're dealing with is.

What I wonder, conversely, is how many players that are good to very good are betrayed by statistics, or if it's even a thing.

So, do Reverse Fred's exist, or does the data always come up trumps...eventually?

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Your point about Fred is wrong, everybody rated him horribly due to the amount of times possession was lost so I think you chose the completely wrong person.

In terms of someone who looks good and the number's don't support it, Adama Traore for me...

 

[Withnail]

Does it happen? Can you name any players who fit the bill?

I find posts in the transfer threads about potential midfield buys eventually get to the point of data comparison minutiae where players who do well according to the data are compared and contrasted to those who, at least at first glance, look really good.

I'm not going to pretend Fred's performance yesterday isn't the reason I'm making this thread, reason being, according to the data, he comes out looking really good and accomplished, whereas, according to what my eyes tell me (and what I've majority posted over the years about him) he is erratic and prone to numerous errors that state, to me, that the data for him doesn't carry as much value as it should because it's untrustworthy if not letting you know just how erratic a player you're dealing with is.

What I wonder, conversely, is how many players that are good to very good are betrayed by statistics, or if it's even a thing.

So, do Reverse Fred's exist, or does the data always come up trumps...eventually?

Which data makes Fred's performance yesterday look good? He wins the ball back but the problem is his passing.

His pass accuracy was 75% which isn't good for a player in his position.

 

[Fortitude]

I should be clearer: Fred, as an overall player where season stats are drawn; not Fred's data from yesterday, which I haven't seen.

If I'd never seen Fred play and only went by the data, I'd think I'm about to bear witness to a different player than he is.

 

[Infordin]

Douglas Costa looked absolutely insane every time I watched him play, but he flopped at both Bayern and Juve and he’s now in playing the Brazilian league, so something must have gone wrong with my eye test.

 

[Gio]

Depends what your measures are as there are so many out there and only some are available to the general public.

In terms of what is commonly available, I think those players who have better-than-average anticipation, reading of the game and taking up the right spaces on and off the ball, are often under-appreciated purely in statistical terms. For example, in your typical centre-half partnership there may be one player who wins most of the headers, tackles, etc, but it's the other guy who is clearly the better reader of the game, the better organiser, etc.

I'd also say that any attacking player who isn't chalking up goals and assists will struggle to get their dues. Those 8/10 hybrids like Iniesta or Zidane aren't going to rack up the same outputs, and will be less appreciated for their work in the build-up, drawing defenders to them, taking the ball in tight spaces, using close control to create space for a runner or to conjure the pre-assist. Same principle for the play-stretchers and the off-the-ball runners who sacrifice individual glory in an attack to ensure someone else has a better opportunity.

 

[11101]

Fred is very good at doing certain things. Ask him to do just that and he's a very good player, one with a good record in the league and who has forced his way into the national team in the last couple of years. Ask him to do other things and he struggles. His stats look good because most of the time we ask him to do what he's good at. Yesterday we asked him to do something else.

Drogba is one who was always better than his stats suggested. He was a fecking nightmare to play against but only broke 20 goals twice in his entire career.

Carrick too suffers a bit in the way Fred does. His positioning and game reading were top notch but he didn't tackle much or do much at all in some games, according to the stats. Conversely, blood and thunder defenders like Terry look better than they were.

 

[Withnail]

I should be clearer: Fred, as an overall player where season stats are drawn; not Fred's data from yesterday, which I haven't seen.

If I'd never seen Fred play and only went by the data, I'd think I'm about to bear witness to a different player than he is.

Can you at least post the stats you're referring to? There are so many available and at this point I've no idea which ones you're talking about.

 

[Fortitude]

Can you at least post the stats you're referring to? There are so many available and at this point I've no idea which ones you're talking about.

Searching. On phone so it's taking a while.

 

[Uniquim]

Here are some Fred stats from the game yesterday

Total passes - short - medium - long - extra stuff.
Bolded line is for the whole team.

Spoiler: Last 5 games

 

[Ekeke]

Does it happen? Can you name any players who fit the bill?

I find posts in the transfer threads about potential midfield buys eventually get to the point of data comparison minutiae where players who do well according to the data are compared and contrasted to those who, at least at first glance, look really good.

I'm not going to pretend Fred's performance yesterday isn't the reason I'm making this thread, reason being, according to the data, he comes out looking really good and accomplished, whereas, according to what my eyes tell me (and what I've majority posted over the years about him) he is erratic and prone to numerous errors that state, to me, that the data for him doesn't carry as much value as it should because it's untrustworthy if not letting you know just how erratic a player you're dealing with is.

What I wonder, conversely, is how many players that are good to very good are betrayed by statistics, or if it's even a thing.

So, do Reverse Fred's exist, or does the data always come up trumps...eventually?

You're looking at the wrong data

 

[P-Nut]

Here are some Fred stats from the game yesterday

Total passes - short - medium - long - extra stuff.
Bolded line is for the whole team.

Spoiler: Last 5 games

feck me how does his pass completion drop so much for us, is he being asked to be more adventurous for us or something?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

feck me how does his pass completion drop so much for us, is he being asked to be more adventurous for us or something?

Our possession play is poor. Obviously he contributed to that but it's also a team issue.

 

[bucky]

Depends what your measures are as there are so many out there and only some are available to the general public.

In terms of what is commonly available, I think those players who have better-than-average anticipation, reading of the game and taking up the right spaces on and off the ball, are often under-appreciated purely in statistical terms. For example, in your typical centre-half partnership there may be one player who wins most of the headers, tackles, etc, but it's the other guy who is clearly the better reader of the game, the better organiser, etc.

I'd also say that any attacking player who isn't chalking up goals and assists will struggle to get their dues. Those 8/10 hybrids like Iniesta or Zidane aren't going to rack up the same outputs, and will be less appreciated for their work in the build-up, drawing defenders to them, taking the ball in tight spaces, using close control to create space for a runner or to conjure the pre-assist. Same principle for the play-stretchers and the off-the-ball runners who sacrifice individual glory in an attack to ensure someone else has a better opportunity.

Even for those there are better measures nowadays. xGbuildup, xGchain, xA, progressive passes, shot and goal-creating actions, through balls, etc. I wouldn't be surprised, if those existed back when both of them played, that they would have shined by those metrics.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

Depends what your measures are as there are so many out there and only some are available to the general public.

In terms of what is commonly available, I think those players who have better-than-average anticipation, reading of the game and taking up the right spaces on and off the ball, are often under-appreciated purely in statistical terms. For example, in your typical centre-half partnership there may be one player who wins most of the headers, tackles, etc, but it's the other guy who is clearly the better reader of the game, the better organiser, etc.

I'd also say that any attacking player who isn't chalking up goals and assists will struggle to get their dues. Those 8/10 hybrids like Iniesta or Zidane aren't going to rack up the same outputs, and will be less appreciated for their work in the build-up, drawing defenders to them, taking the ball in tight spaces, using close control to create space for a runner or to conjure the pre-assist. Same principle for the play-stretchers and the off-the-ball runners who sacrifice individual glory in an attack to ensure someone else has a better opportunity.

Do you reckon this contributed to the decline of these kinds of players? Do managers find it harder to see their value when they keep getting told about their low xG, G+A and other nerdlinger letters?

 

[sullydnl]

Even for those there are better measures nowadays. xGbuildup, xGchain, xA, progressive passes, shot and goal-creating actions, through balls, etc. I wouldn't be surprised, if those existed back when both of them played, that they would have shined by those metrics.

Yep.

Here's stats from Iniesta's final season at Barca, where he was well past his best. You can see even then he was murdering some of the passing and possession stats. At his best there would have been a lot of underlying data highlighting how good he was even if the goals/assist column looked underwhelming.

https://fbref.com/en/players/cfd65a29/scout/1652/Andres-Iniesta-Scouting-Report

 

[Pexbo]

Yep.

Here's stats from Iniesta's final season at Barca, where he was well past his best. You can see even then he was murdering some of the passing and possession stats. At his best there would have been a lot of underlying data highlighting how good he was even if the goals/assist column looked underwhelming.

https://fbref.com/en/players/cfd65a29/scout/1652/Andres-Iniesta-Scouting-Report

 

[adexkola]

Depends what your measures are as there are so many out there and only some are available to the general public.

In terms of what is commonly available, I think those players who have better-than-average anticipation, reading of the game and taking up the right spaces on and off the ball, are often under-appreciated purely in statistical terms. For example, in your typical centre-half partnership there may be one player who wins most of the headers, tackles, etc, but it's the other guy who is clearly the better reader of the game, the better organiser, etc.

I'd also say that any attacking player who isn't chalking up goals and assists will struggle to get their dues. Those 8/10 hybrids like Iniesta or Zidane aren't going to rack up the same outputs, and will be less appreciated for their work in the build-up, drawing defenders to them, taking the ball in tight spaces, using close control to create space for a runner or to conjure the pre-assist. Same principle for the play-stretchers and the off-the-ball runners who sacrifice individual glory in an attack to ensure someone else has a better opportunity.

Bolded is key.

I'm sure it's not impossible to quantify what Iniesta and Zidane brought to the table. It would probably be laughed at by us armchair managers and dismissed as "stats gone mad" but for those who actually have to make decisions I'm sure they are able to appropriately determine the level of a players contribution beyond G+A.

Also, while watching a player is necessary, people really underestimate how much their biases and gaps in football knowledge impact their impression of a player. Given stats or my dumb eyes, I'm trusting the stats 99% of the time.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

The detailed level of stats that the clubs look at when considering players are much better than the standard 'eye test'.

Many players flatter to deceive - their pace or raw trickery gets them into good positons but their final cross, pass, shot regularly let's them down. Many people only seeing them a few times would focus on the former, saying 'huge threat - on another day they could have had a hat trick (of goals or assists).'

The stats take that mythical 'another day' out of the equation by showing what they actually do on a regular basis. Not what they might do if they're end product matched the potential.

Some people who mock stats act as if clubs buying players just look at % of accurate passes but don't know they might be easy 5 yard balls that the 'eye test' can see. But the level of detailed research that clubs go into with players - especially things like the Moneyball approach - is immense, and takes way more into account than what the 'eye test' can see and remember of the performances.

 

[Ish]

From the past generation - Iniesta’s stats weren’t the greatest for someone of his stature in the game. Ditto maybe even Zizou.

 

[Acrobat7]

Douglas Costa looked absolutely insane every time I watched him play, but he flopped at both Bayern and Juve and he’s now in playing the Brazilian league, so something must have gone wrong with my eye test.

Definitely.
One of the most frustrating and headless players I have ever witnessed. Selling him to Juve was brilliant business by Bayern.

 

[Lentwood]

There will always be some things you just can't measure with statistics, no matter how sophisticated you get with the analysis.

I'll give you an example, and unfortunately I am going to pick on Fred again (as well as Lingard), just because I watched both games yesterday and they are fresh in my mind

Scenario 1 - Kai Havertz picks up the ball in the left channel, looks up and immediately fizzes a cross-field pass into the path of Reece James, who is able to run onto the ball at pace. James wastes the opportunity, but the ball arrived at the perfect time and at the perfect weight to create a "chance to make a chance". However, the statistics will show one completed forward pass.

Scenario 2 - Fred picked up the ball in a good area after a lucky ricochet and was able to drive 3 vs 3 at the Southampton back four in the first half. Bruno Fernandes gets in his way slightly and runs across Fred's "passing line" to Pogba in the inside-left position. Fred hesitates, then hesitates again, eventually fluffing the pass slightly and forcing Pogba to check to receive the pass. Southampton scramble, the opportunity to create an attacking overload is missed, and the "chance to make a chance" was wasted. Fred, like Havertz, gets to count one successful forward pass, but the difference in the quality of those passes is significant.

Scenario 3 - In the last few minutes of the game, Lingard receives the ball in the inside-left channel. He looks up and spots a 2 vs 1 overload on the right flank, Sancho and AWB vs the Southampton LB. Lingard sees the pass and knows he should attempt it, but hesitates, clearly lacking belief in his ability to make the big switch. It's a pass with a degree of a difficulty, but one a Scholes, Modric, Kroos, Gerrard etc...would make in their sleep. Instead of attempting the pass, Lingard rolls the ball backwards to Pogba, basically saying "go on mate, you do it". By the time Pogba receives the ball and turns out, Southampton have scrambled again. The pass is still on, but it's now more difficult and with a lower risk/reward. Pogba attempts it anyway, but its an unusually poor attempt and it sails out for a goal kick. Pogba is shown as an incomplete long pass, Lingard gets to show one complete short pass.

Now, just there is three actions I have highlighted from memory during yesterday's game, you see the naunces of understanding a "good" footballer versus an elite footballer
, or at least, a "good" piece of play vs an "elite" piece of play (because obviously any player on their day at any moment could pull off an elite skill)

I have been lucky enough to have seen plenty of elite footballers live in my time, having held a ST at OT for most of 2005-2018. I have seen how Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes etc...operate and move the ball, as well as high-level opponents like KdB, Gerrard, Lampard and Iniesta. I will say conclusively, for an absolute fact, McTominay, Fred and Matic are SO far off that level, it's like comparing a Mercedes CLA 220 with a Ferrari. You're not saying the Mercedes is a bad car, and on some metrics, if all you're doing is driving it to work and back, it outperforms the Ferrari. However, when push comes to shove on the racetrack, the difference is massive.

So, in reality, sure we can determine something from statistics, but I still feel there is much more to identifying an elite level player than just the stats. It's their vision, their awareness, their weight of pass, the way they control the ball to give themselves the best chance of making the best possible next action, the way they turn into space/away from trouble under pressure. All very difficult to measure, all absolutely vital to understanding the difference between Carrick and McTominay/Fred (I don't even mention Scholes, because he was a generational talent - but that should be the level we ultimately aspire too)

 

[Fortitude]

Can you at least post the stats you're referring to? There are so many available and at this point I've no idea which ones you're talking about.

He had an amazing game yesterday, he's developing really nicely at Brighton.

However, that said, I don't really see him as the kind of CM/DM that we need. He's a bit McTominay-like. He's very good defensively, has very good control of the ball and he can surge and dribble into the opponent's half. But his passing normally is quite timid.

Stats aren't the be-all and end-all of course, but here's a glimpse of how he looks against our current CM pairing for those wondering.

In a more dominating team his possession stats would increase of course, he would have more progressive passes and touches at the attacking penalty etc. He's showing glimpses that he can improve on last year's stats too. But I don't think his passing stats would increase to point of reaching Fred anytime soon. Nevermind the kind of DM I feel that we need in Fabinho or Jorginho (didn't fit).

Personally I maintain that we need a playmaker in midfield first and foremost. One that is also positionally aware and shields the defence through good positioning. Rather than some who is good defensively but limited with his passing.

Things like this. I know I’ve seen more over the close season, but this was the easiest to find.

Outside of being a very simple runner harasser of the opposition, Fred generally leaves me feeling as though he’s lacking. The performance yesterday I’ve not commented on or piled in on because bad games happen, but what I always feel with Fred is he has that in him, and I doubt the stats reveal that about him instead painting a picture of a more stable player than Fred is.

 

[tomaldinho1]

feck me how does his pass completion drop so much for us, is he being asked to be more adventurous for us or something?

Hasenhuttl is a v good coach for implementing a press, as is Bielsa & Fred plays a different role for Brazil.

 

[Eugenius]

Drogba is a good shout.

Think you can argue Grealish a year back.

Evra also. Rarely got assists, but was actually one of our most important attacking players 2010-13.

 

[spiriticon]

Paul Scholes for me.

He would never survive the stats driven narrative of today's football pundits.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Oddly, enough Bissouma. Always stands out to me, has an attractive style of play but seems worse at progressing the ball than both our heavily criticised pivots and therefore may not be the panacea some think him to be for our DM woes.

 

[Yagami]

I guess Sofyan Amrabat. Unimpressive stats but, since joining Serie A the year before last, he's dominated every Italian team he's faced. Juventus, the Milans, Napoli, Atalanta, etc.

I'd compare him to Dembele who used to play for Fulham and Tottenham.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Paul Scholes for me.

He would never survive the stats driven narrative of today's football pundits.

His passing stats were immense and he hardly ever lost the ball.

 

[bucky]

Things like this. I know I’ve seen more over the close season, but this was the easiest to find.

Outside of being a very simple runner harasser of the opposition, Fred generally leaves me feeling as though he’s lacking. The performance yesterday I’ve not commented on or piled in on because bad games happen, but what I always feel with Fred is he has that in him, and I doubt the stats reveal that about him instead painting a picture of a more stable player than Fred is.

Just from checking his page on fbref; he is among the worst 13% for midfielders as for passes intercepted, worst 19% for passes blocked, worst 18% for dribbled past, worst 28% for miscontrols of the ball and worst 25% for getting dispossessed. So the stats clearly show him being erratic.

Spoiler

Paul Scholes for me.

He would never survive the stats driven narrative of today's football pundits.

Every passing stat would show what an incredible player he was.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Paul Scholes for me.

He would never survive the stats driven narrative of today's football pundits.

Late game Scholes, yes. 90s and early 00s Scholes had a decent goals return. But yeah if you're looking at assist stats, he wasn't lighting it up stats wise.

I'm probably being a dinosaur here, but the importance placed on stats in recent years does my head in. Football is a fluid game. Stats are stats. You can't just pull out numbers without watching games expecting to have a complete picture.

 

[dal]

Tyler Roberts for Leeds is definitely passing the eye test, let’s see if the data backs it up this year.

 

[Daydreamer]

There will always be some things you just can't measure with statistics, no matter how sophisticated you get with the analysis.

I'll give you an example, and unfortunately I am going to pick on Fred again (as well as Lingard), just because I watched both games yesterday and they are fresh in my mind

Scenario 1 - Kai Havertz picks up the ball in the left channel, looks up and immediately fizzes a cross-field pass into the path of Reece James, who is able to run onto the ball at pace. James wastes the opportunity, but the ball arrived at the perfect time and at the perfect weight to create a "chance to make a chance". However, the statistics will show one completed forward pass.

Scenario 2 - Fred picked up the ball in a good area after a lucky ricochet and was able to drive 3 vs 3 at the Southampton back four in the first half. Bruno Fernandes gets in his way slightly and runs across Fred's "passing line" to Pogba in the inside-left position. Fred hesitates, then hesitates again, eventually fluffing the pass slightly and forcing Pogba to check to receive the pass. Southampton scramble, the opportunity to create an attacking overload is missed, and the "chance to make a chance" was wasted. Fred, like Havertz, gets to count one successful forward pass, but the difference in the quality of those passes is significant.

Scenario 3 - In the last few minutes of the game, Lingard receives the ball in the inside-left channel. He looks up and spots a 2 vs 1 overload on the right flank, Sancho and AWB vs the Southampton LB. Lingard sees the pass and knows he should attempt it, but hesitates, clearly lacking belief in his ability to make the big switch. It's a pass with a degree of a difficulty, but one a Scholes, Modric, Kroos, Gerrard etc...would make in their sleep. Instead of attempting the pass, Lingard rolls the ball backwards to Pogba, basically saying "go on mate, you do it". By the time Pogba receives the ball and turns out, Southampton have scrambled again. The pass is still on, but it's now more difficult and with a lower risk/reward. Pogba attempts it anyway, but its an unusually poor attempt and it sails out for a goal kick. Pogba is shown as an incomplete long pass, Lingard gets to show one complete short pass.

Now, just there is three actions I have highlighted from memory during yesterday's game, you see the naunces of understanding a "good" footballer versus an elite footballer
, or at least, a "good" piece of play vs an "elite" piece of play (because obviously any player on their day at any moment could pull off an elite skill)

I have been lucky enough to have seen plenty of elite footballers live in my time, having held a ST at OT for most of 2005-2018. I have seen how Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes etc...operate and move the ball, as well as high-level opponents like KdB, Gerrard, Lampard and Iniesta. I will say conclusively, for an absolute fact, McTominay, Fred and Matic are SO far off that level, it's like comparing a Mercedes CLA 220 with a Ferrari. You're not saying the Mercedes is a bad car, and on some metrics, if all you're doing is driving it to work and back, it outperforms the Ferrari. However, when push comes to shove on the racetrack, the difference is massive.

So, in reality, sure we can determine something from statistics, but I still feel there is much more to identifying an elite level player than just the stats. It's their vision, their awareness, their weight of pass, the way they control the ball to give themselves the best chance of making the best possible next action, the way they turn into space/away from trouble under pressure. All very difficult to measure, all absolutely vital to understanding the difference between Carrick and McTominay/Fred (I don't even mention Scholes, because he was a generational talent - but that should be the level we ultimately aspire too)

Awesome post. I was gonna say something similar but you nailed it with concrete examples.

I’d add Bergkamp to the mix. In his 11 years he contributed 87 goals and 79 assists. Which is wonderful, but in no way represents the level to which he made us tick.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

There will always be some things you just can't measure with statistics, no matter how sophisticated you get with the analysis.

I'll give you an example, and unfortunately I am going to pick on Fred again (as well as Lingard), just because I watched both games yesterday and they are fresh in my mind

Scenario 1 - Kai Havertz picks up the ball in the left channel, looks up and immediately fizzes a cross-field pass into the path of Reece James, who is able to run onto the ball at pace. James wastes the opportunity, but the ball arrived at the perfect time and at the perfect weight to create a "chance to make a chance". However, the statistics will show one completed forward pass.

Scenario 2 - Fred picked up the ball in a good area after a lucky ricochet and was able to drive 3 vs 3 at the Southampton back four in the first half. Bruno Fernandes gets in his way slightly and runs across Fred's "passing line" to Pogba in the inside-left position. Fred hesitates, then hesitates again, eventually fluffing the pass slightly and forcing Pogba to check to receive the pass. Southampton scramble, the opportunity to create an attacking overload is missed, and the "chance to make a chance" was wasted. Fred, like Havertz, gets to count one successful forward pass, but the difference in the quality of those passes is significant.

Scenario 3 - In the last few minutes of the game, Lingard receives the ball in the inside-left channel. He looks up and spots a 2 vs 1 overload on the right flank, Sancho and AWB vs the Southampton LB. Lingard sees the pass and knows he should attempt it, but hesitates, clearly lacking belief in his ability to make the big switch. It's a pass with a degree of a difficulty, but one a Scholes, Modric, Kroos, Gerrard etc...would make in their sleep. Instead of attempting the pass, Lingard rolls the ball backwards to Pogba, basically saying "go on mate, you do it". By the time Pogba receives the ball and turns out, Southampton have scrambled again. The pass is still on, but it's now more difficult and with a lower risk/reward. Pogba attempts it anyway, but its an unusually poor attempt and it sails out for a goal kick. Pogba is shown as an incomplete long pass, Lingard gets to show one complete short pass.

Now, just there is three actions I have highlighted from memory during yesterday's game, you see the naunces of understanding a "good" footballer versus an elite footballer
, or at least, a "good" piece of play vs an "elite" piece of play (because obviously any player on their day at any moment could pull off an elite skill)

I have been lucky enough to have seen plenty of elite footballers live in my time, having held a ST at OT for most of 2005-2018. I have seen how Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes etc...operate and move the ball, as well as high-level opponents like KdB, Gerrard, Lampard and Iniesta. I will say conclusively, for an absolute fact, McTominay, Fred and Matic are SO far off that level, it's like comparing a Mercedes CLA 220 with a Ferrari. You're not saying the Mercedes is a bad car, and on some metrics, if all you're doing is driving it to work and back, it outperforms the Ferrari. However, when push comes to shove on the racetrack, the difference is massive.

So, in reality, sure we can determine something from statistics, but I still feel there is much more to identifying an elite level player than just the stats. It's their vision, their awareness, their weight of pass, the way they control the ball to give themselves the best chance of making the best possible next action, the way they turn into space/away from trouble under pressure. All very difficult to measure, all absolutely vital to understanding the difference between Carrick and McTominay/Fred (I don't even mention Scholes, because he was a generational talent - but that should be the level we ultimately aspire too)

I take your point but the statistics you’re referring to are basic passing completion stats. There’s so many more advanced stats that tell you so much more such as xA, xT, progressive passes, final third passes, sCA, gCA etc. These stats aren’t really designed to be used on a single game basis but football is a game full of patterns and over a large enough sample period, the differences between Fred, Lingard and Havertz should emerge.

 

[bucky]

Late game Scholes, yes. 90s and early 00s Scholes had a decent goals return. But yeah if you're looking at assist stats, he wasn't lighting it up stats wise.

I'm probably being a dinosaur here, but the importance placed on stats in recent years does my head in. Football is a fluid game. Stats are stats. You can't just pull out numbers without watching games expecting to have a complete picture.

Doubt anyone is claiming that.

Awesome post. I was gonna say something similar but you nailed it with concrete examples.

I’d add Bergkamp to the mix. In his 11 years he contributed 87 goals and 79 assists. Which is wonderful, but in no way represents the level to which he made us tick.

Which is why different metrics have been created to better measure performances.

 

[Hastar]

Lallana.
And lately Todd Cantwell

I must add that I am still a fan of Lallana (despite the unsatisfactory output), and also Cantwell, whom I want LFC to sign.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Awesome post. I was gonna say something similar but you nailed it with concrete examples.

I’d add Bergkamp to the mix. In his 11 years he contributed 87 goals and 79 assists. Which is wonderful, but in no way represents the level to which he made us tick.

I feel like we get a bit lost in modern day PL numbers to appreciate how good some of these players were and I don't think we have the more advanced stats from their era. It's pointless to compare them to modern day players because the game is so different as well but if you compare that to his immediate contemporaries (I went for second striker/AM types although maybe Ginola shouldn't be in there as more off the left from memory) you can see how good Bergkamp was.

Bergkamp: 315 app. 87 goals. 94 assists.
Zola: 229 apps. 59 goals. 42 assists.
Cantona: 156 apps. 70 goals. 56 assists.
Ginola: 195 apps. 21 goals. 42 assists.
Le Tissier: 270 apps. 100 goals. 63 assists.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I take your point but the statistics you’re referring to are basic passing completion stats. There’s so many more advanced stats that tell you so much more such as xA, xT, progressive passes, final third passes, sCA, gCA etc. These stats aren’t really designed to be used on a single game basis but football is a game full of patterns and over a large enough sample period, the differences between Fred, Lingard and Havertz should emerge.

Yep. Good points. And I made similar myself.

Either through ignorance, or deliberate attempts to undermine, some people just keep acting like all the stats say is % pass / cross completed, etc, and that they give no context to the area or significance of those passes, crosses, etc.

That's a huge misrepresentation of the incredibly detailed level of statistics compiled nowadays - and used by clubs when analysing players. Yes, they'll also watch those players live as well. That bit is still an important factor. But I don't get the need for some to act like that's all that's still needed and all the detailed analysis is some silly and unnecessary modern fad. For those who compile and use it, it's a very important tool in analysing players ability and contributions over a long period in huge detail - every bit as important a part of it as watching them live.

 

[Lay]

Dembele at Spurs always looked quality but his stats were quite low I think

 

[MadMike]

Things like this. I know I’ve seen more over the close season, but this was the easiest to find.

Outside of being a very simple runner harasser of the opposition, Fred generally leaves me feeling as though he’s lacking. The performance yesterday I’ve not commented on or piled in on because bad games happen, but what I always feel with Fred is he has that in him, and I doubt the stats reveal that about him instead painting a picture of a more stable player than Fred is.

That applies to every player equally though, you probably don't have players of other teams under the same microscope.

The stats don't lie. Fred's stats for yesterday are already compiled on FBRef and are below his average, he had 75.5% passing. He had a bad game.

But he's still a better passer than Bissouma on average. He might have a higher standard deviation from his mean though, that I don't know.