Police Reform in the US and UK - 2020 onwards

[RedPed]

Thought it would be good to have a separate thread to track and discuss all the developments in the reforming (if any) of the police forces in the UK and US. I'm guessing the US will be the busier of the two as good old Boris doesn't seem to think the problem is that bad here.

Positive start by the Minneapolis PD with a big feck you to the Police Unions.

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[RedPed]

No-knock warrants now banned in Louisville. Officers who shot Taylor got away with one there.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/louisville-breonnas-law-no-knock-warrants-ban/index.html

 

[VeevaVee]

The problem isn’t that bad here. It doesn’t need totally stripping back and starting again like in the US.

The improvements would, in an ideal world, be in funding, recruitment and then managing individuals and ensuring they’re not pieces of shit. Also the approach so less profiling and then the community measures mentioned in another thread to actually help.

 

[sun_tzu]

The problem isn’t that bad here. It doesn’t need totally stripping back and starting again like in the US.

The improvements would, in an ideal world, be in funding, recruitment and then managing individuals and ensuring they’re not pieces of shit. Also the approach so less profiling and then the community measures mentioned in another thread to actually help.

I think different solutions are needed because the organisations start from a different place, operate in a different environment and may have a different goal they want to achieve with re-organisation

That is not to say that there is some similarities i feel and perhaps most obviousley dealing with mental health issues, addiction, homelessness, truancy etc shouldn't really be police issues and needs some extension of social services and / or some carving out of that function from day to day policing.

If you only have a hammer every problem looks like a nail and handcuffs / prison cells might not always be the only or the best way to approach an issue

 

[RedPed]

The problem isn’t that bad here. It doesn’t need totally stripping back and starting again like in the US.

The improvements would, in an ideal world, be in funding, recruitment and then managing individuals and ensuring they’re not pieces of shit. Also the approach so less profiling and then the community measures mentioned in another thread to actually help.

I think the biggest things if they can push them through will be mandatory use of bodycams and accountability for bad police officers.

 

[sun_tzu]

I think the biggest things if they can push them through will be mandatory use of bodycams and accountability for bad police officers.

Mat be less effective than people thin according to studies

Whether or not the cameras could actually lead to, say, a reduction in use of police force is muddled. In one prominent experiment conducted in Washington, DC, from 2015 and 2016, half of the officers in the city’s Metropolitan Police Department strapped a body cam on for seven months. The other half didn’t. “The top-line results that we found were that there weren’t any meaningful, detectable effects on the likelihood that force was used, [or] the rates of complaints that we were seeing,” says David Yokum, the director of The Policy Lab at Brown University and the lead scientist on the randomized study.

When it came to specific metrics such as people lodging complaints against officers, Yokum’s team found “no detectable effect” from the cameras, as the study’s website puts it. “The punchline is you should be recalibrating your expectations about what body-cam technology is going to do,” he reflects, “either for your police force if you’re a police chief, or in your community if you’re an everyday resident.”

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/police-body-cameras/

 

[SteveTheRed]

I really don't think there is any reform is needed in the UK, those crying for one just want to be involved!

The US however is a shit show.

 

[choiboyx012]

The purpose of body cams is not to reduce uses of force, but to document it, or any public encounter for that matter. It’s mostly used to address any complaints and most officers are fine with it because it’s used to clear them of any wrongdoing. And at the more serious level (shootings, uses of force) it helps investigators and management determine if officers were following policy, training, etc

 

[gormless]

As a cop, I love body cams. I don’t know any who don’t. They’ve saved us from so many fake complaints, as well as excellent for gathering evidence.
Only problem I have with them is, when the public filmed and “creatively cut” video is put on twitter showing an officer punching a member of the public, we don’t release the body camera footage showing what happened in the build up

 

[Ludens the Red]

As a cop, I love body cams. I don’t know any who don’t. They’ve saved us from so many fake complaints, as well as excellent for gathering evidence.
Only problem I have with them is, when the public filmed and “creatively cut” video is put on twitter showing an officer punching a member of the public, we don’t release the body camera footage showing what happened in the build up

I’d imagine the undesirable officers don’t like them and conveniently have them turned off in certain situations.

But yeah I like em, generally the people who seem to say they’re ineffective are the people outside the role who’s frame of reference is statistics. As if body worn video is going to reduce crime or police complaints. With body worn it’s about each individual case or incident. I’ve had someone convicted of racially aggravated public order against me based on my body worn footage. It cuts out the need for any potential long drawn out courts proceedings which again cannot be certified when looking at meaningless statistics.

 

[RedPed]

Chokeholds now banned in New York...

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[TheReligion]

Thought it would be good to have a separate thread to track and discuss all the developments in the reforming (if any) of the police forces in the UK and US. I'm guessing the US will be the busier of the two as good old Boris doesn't seem to think the problem is that bad here.

Positive start by the Minneapolis PD with a big feck you to the Police Unions.

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Neither does anyone else judging by your thread.

 

[RedPed]

Trump signs Executive Order on police reform.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...g-amid-mounting-pressure-over-lethal-n1231174

It's a start I suppose.

 

[altodevil]

Only issue in the UK is the near-criminal underfunding.

 

[Dante]

I know there are issues of privacy with this, but I think it would be good if bodycams could never be switched off.

To use the police's own logic against them, they have nothing to worry about if they're not doing anything wrong.

 

[DOTA]

UK police are appalling at dealing with sexual and domestic violence and it would be better to have social services take over a lot of that work and be funded to do so.

UK police are appalling at riot control and at the very least severe restrictions and deterrents need to be brought in to control the majority of the police who think violently attacking protesters is a perk of the job.

 

[DOTA]

Racial profiling needs to be independently overseen. Stop and search needs to be banned.

If you think the UK police are fine actually, it's because you've been fortunate enough to avoid them.

 

[SilentWitness]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/381ddbb1-e493-4875-86da-4fa4368ef839

Stories of three police officers experience of racism in the UK. Two of them from Bedfordshire police force that resigned because of racial bullying and micro-aggressions (In the last couple of years, recent cases).

 

[0le]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/381ddbb1-e493-4875-86da-4fa4368ef839

Stories of three police officers experience of racism in the UK. Two of them from Bedfordshire police force that resigned because of racial bullying and micro-aggressions (In the last couple of years, recent cases).

This part particularly angers me:

"there is absolutely no place for racism within GMP and we will investigate any reports of racist behaviour both internally and externally."

There is no recognition of a mistake, no meaningful apology made to the victims and just empty words to go with it. And I would guess that this is a problem within many industries.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Only issue in the UK is the near-criminal underfunding.

UK has some, albeit isolated, dodgy incidents.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53076269

Had six coppers on top of him and died during his arrest. The whole thing was a mess because they tried to portray the guy as an aggressive monster with a track record of violence. The reality is he was a family man who took some drugs one night and had a bad trip. He grabbed a knife from his house and wondered the streets, threw it in a nearby garden and carried on walking about. The police said they saw him with the knife, which he no longer had when they came on to the scene. He hit a female officer who was there before the rest and carried on wondering about, but the police (the ones who weren't on the scene yet, not the one he hit) stated that he was stomping on her when she was down. The cops said that he was physically imposing and a strong lad, which he was but he was still shorter than two of the officers and 100lbs lighter than one of them. Yet they sped towards him, stopped their vans in front of him, and without any warning of mention, ran to him with sprays in hand, jumped on top of him and stayed that way for a few minutes whilst he screamed "get off me".

Nobody comes out of that situation very well but the police tried covering it up and only now half a decade on is his family finally getting answers.

It's one of those cases where, if you really wanted to, you could say "well, he shouldn't have been off his tits on drugs, walking about with a knife before throwing it in a garden, and punching an officer" but does that mean he deserved to die and then have his reputation destroyed in the press due to misinformation being spread by the police?

This was my hometown, everyone knew Sheku or someone who knew him and they all said the same thing. He was a good guy, everybody's friend. He never started fights, and always walked away when someone tried to start on him. There's incidents like this every day and every now and then it goes too far and someone loses their life.

 

[altodevil]

UK has some, albeit isolated, dodgy incidents.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53076269

Had six coppers on top of him and died during his arrest. The whole thing was a mess because they tried to portray the guy as an aggressive monster with a track record of violence. The reality is he was a family man who took some drugs one night and had a bad trip. He grabbed a knife from his house and wondered the streets, threw it in a nearby garden and carried on walking about. The police said they saw him with the knife, which he no longer had when they came on to the scene. He hit a female officer who was there before the rest and carried on wondering about, but the police (the ones who weren't on the scene yet, not the one he hit) stated that he was stomping on her when she was down. The cops said that he was physically imposing and a strong lad, which he was but he was still shorter than two of the officers and 100lbs lighter than one of them. Yet they sped towards him, stopped their vans in front of him, and without any warning of mention, ran to him with sprays in hand, jumped on top of him and stayed that way for a few minutes whilst he screamed "get off me".

Nobody comes out of that situation very well but the police tried covering it up and only now half a decade on is his family finally getting answers.

It's one of those cases where, if you really wanted to, you could say "well, he shouldn't have been off his tits on drugs, walking about with a knife before throwing it in a garden, and punching an officer" but does that mean he deserved to die and then have his reputation destroyed in the press due to misinformation being spread by the police?

This was my hometown, everyone knew Sheku or someone who knew him and they all said the same thing. He was a good guy, everybody's friend. He never started fights, and always walked away when someone tried to start on him. There's incidents like this every day and every now and then it goes too far and someone loses their life.

I remember hearing about that, I lived in Guardbridge at the time. Totally forgot - you are right there are definitely still terrible incidents.

 

[gormless]

I know there are issues of privacy with this, but I think it would be good if bodycams could never be switched off.

To use the police's own logic against them, they have nothing to worry about if they're not doing anything wrong.

I love body cams. I’m a cop and honesty they’re a brilliant tool, both evidentially and in terms of avoiding complaints (I’ve had someone ring up making a complaint accusing me of pushing his disabled mother to the ground, before hanging up when realising it was all recorded on bodywork video).

Having them on all the time would absolutely suck. If you were pulled over for a minor traffic offence by myself back in my days on response, I 99% would have dealt with it by words of advice, unless you were driving in a completely dangerous manner. If bodyworn was on the whole time, it would be a ticket every time, just to cover myself in case you go round the corner and run some one over.

I am what’s called a SOIT Officer. Essentially, when I was a response officer, as a SOIT, I would be the first person to see rape and sexual assault victims. Having a body cam on in this situation would massively harm prosecution chances due to multiple victim accounts being recorded (often by someone who may be drunk, drugged, or massively traumatised. The defence will pick this apart if they find any difference between two accounts, which is always going to happen when people have been through extreme trauma).

Also, I have tried to take first accounts of non sexual incidents from young children before using body cams, and being on camera has caused them a large amount of distress.

Intelligence from members of the public would instantly dry up, increasing risk from anything from drug dealing to terrorism.

What about when I strip search somebody? It’s horrible enough for everyone involved as it is. I don’t want to add to the indignity by recording it on camera.

Then there is the practicalities such as, server storage costs, toilet breaks, and our own right to privacy. Being recorded none stop would be fecking exhausting, and Officers are going to want to blow of some steam, or bawl their fecking eyes out after attending that sudden death on Christmas Eve, and having to take the Dads body away from the screaming 7 year old (my own experience there). Sudden deaths is another one, it adds massive indignity to searching the body, and will capture people at their absolute lowest.
I do appreciate your sentiment (and there are policies where it absolutely has to be turned on -domestics being the most obvious), but I just think it’s hideously unpractical, and would have negative consequences for both public and police

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I remember hearing about that, I lived in Guardbridge at the time. Totally forgot - you are right there are definitely still terrible incidents.

We had a family BBQ not long after it and they started asking if I knew the guy. Couldn't get a word in before they started talking about how he was a criminal and that the people complaining about the police didn't know what they were talking about (they were all coppers). Just kept my mouth shut because back then I didn't know any better but now I know they were basing their opinions on absolutely nothing.

 

[Cascarino]

This isn’t worthy of a new thread and it didn’t feel right to bump the other one so I think this is the best fit, sorry if I got it wrong mods. I know we have a few officers on here and I have a question about the legality of searches.

If they are arrested they should be searched. Its no grey area for me. I do it every day.

You need reasonable grounds to search somebody on the street but not once under arrest.

Yeah, every cop does and they’re instructed to do so. But the legislation itself is the grey area. Read it. It doesn’t amount to much because it doesn’t come into play but it’s opaque and poorly worded.

On arrest it really isn't. If you mean stop search then yes it is a grey area at the moment. Search on arrest is very clear by law though. If there is enough grounds for a Officer to arrest you then you can be searched completely including a more thorough search back at custody. Which means a naked squat because believe it or not people hide drugs and other objects up their bum.

This is the legislation I was referring to


1)A constable may search an arrested person, in any case where the person to be searched has been arrested at a place other than a police station, if the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the arrested person may present a danger to himself or others.

(2)Subject to subsections (3) to (5) below, a constable shall also have power in any such case—

(a)to search the arrested person for anything—

(i)which he might use to assist him to escape from lawful custody; or

(ii)which might be evidence relating to an offence; and

[F1(b)if the offence for which he has been arrested is an indictable offence, to enter and search any premises in which he was when arrested or immediately before he was arrested for evidence relating to the offence.]

(3)The power to search conferred by subsection (2) above is only a power to search to the extent that is reasonably required for the purpose of discovering any such thing or any such evidence.

(4)The powers conferred by this section to search a person are not to be construed as authorising a constable to require a person to remove any of his clothing in public other than an outer coat, jacket or gloves but they do authorise a search of a person’s mouth].


This is from section 32 and I’ve just copied and pasted the relevant sections, but from reading through I don’t see anything that negates the idea that reasonable grounds are needed to conduct a search. I understand that this is universally ignored for obvious reasons. My question to officers would be is it possible that this would become relevant in court if the legislation wasn’t followed.

 

[parkthebuslads]

There seems to be a real problem in the UK with police being unwilling to enforce the law either due to personal fears of accusations of being racist, or systemic policies of allowing the threat of local unrest to dictate their actions or lack thereof. People need to be held accountable for the betrayal of communities nation wide.

 

[GenZRed]

People on this thread thinking that UK police don't need reform are quite frankly stupid, to put it mildly.

UK police have shown themselves to be terrible in dealing with sexual abuse in many towns/cities across England, including my hometown, not to mention not dealing with stalking causes which lead to her victim being murdered by her stalker.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Dorset police officer filmed threatening man with 'ticket for something'

 

[Kentonio]

Dorset police officer filmed threatening man with 'ticket for something'

The driver should have been thrown in the back of a police van and given a kicking for being a mouthy little prick. Was very clearly out to antagonize and escalate things so he could film it. Police have to deal with enough real shit every day without having pointless crap like this thrown in.

 

[Cascarino]

Dorset police officer filmed threatening man with 'ticket for something'

One of the worst types of officers. It’s scary that he’s comfortable acting like that when being filmed.

 

[SalfordRed18]

The driver should have been thrown in the back of a police van and given a kicking for being a mouthy little prick. Was very clearly out to antagonize and escalate things so he could film it. Police have to deal with enough real shit every day without having pointless crap like this thrown in.

One of the worst types of officers. It’s scary that he’s comfortable acting like that when being filmed.

2 very contrasting views.

Don't really know how you can defend that. Mouthy or not, it's his job and he abused power.

 

[Kentonio]

2 very contrasting views.

Don't really know how you can defend that. Mouthy or not, it's his job and he abused power.

Being totally serious, no the officer shouldn't have acted how he did, and yes he deserves a reprimand from his bosses for not keeping his cool.

However.. the driver was clearly being an obnoxious knobhead, and in a perfect imaginary world (which no I wouldn't want to actually become the real world) he probably deserves a kicking for just being a cnut.

 

[Cascarino]

The driver should have been thrown in the back of a police van and given a kicking for being a mouthy little prick. Was very clearly out to antagonize and escalate things so he could film it. Police have to deal with enough real shit every day without having pointless crap like this thrown in.

Or perhaps he was filming it so that he evidence of the officer lied or misrepresented how the situation went down. Despite knowing he was being filmed, he still threatened the guy with some imaginary ticket for messing with his ego trip. How you can watch that video and think the driver is the guilty party is beyond me.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Frankly, the bare minimum in a civilised society should be a police force where officers understand and respect the laws they are paid to uphold, where failure to live up to those basic standards is dealt with robustly and transparently, and which has a zero-tolerance policy for those who abuse their powers.

On those grounds the officer in the clip above should be sacked.

 

[Kentonio]

Or perhaps he was filming it so that he evidence of the officer lied or misrepresented how the situation went down. Despite knowing he was being filmed, he still threatened the guy with some imaginary ticket for messing with his ego trip. How you can watch that video and think the driver is the guilty party is beyond me.

Did you see my post immediately above yours? I was being a little hyperbolic..

 

[Cascarino]

Did you see my post immediately above yours? I was being a little hyperbolic..

Yeah I could tell that you weren’t being fully literal, but the general sentiment that the driver was the antagonistic one just seems misplaced. I don’t see much if anything wrong with how he responded to the officer, and if that level of discourse is enough to get the officer threatening bullshit charges and acting like a cock he shouldn’t be doing the job. I imagine when he took him to the station the police custody officer ripped him (The officer) a new one for wasting everyone’s time. At least that’s my brother’s experience.

 

[Kentonio]

Yeah I could tell that you weren’t being fully literal, but the general sentiment that the driver was the antagonistic one just seems misplaced. I don’t see much if anything wrong with how he responded to the officer, and if that level of discourse is enough to get the officer threatening bullshit charges and acting like a cock he shouldn’t be doing the job. I imagine when he took him to the station the police custody officer ripped him (The officer) a new one for wasting everyone’s time. At least that’s my brother’s experience.

Agreed re the cop, but seriously the driver was just being a total ass. The cop pulls him over for a perfectly reasonable reason, all he had to do was turn off the car, wind his window down and explain to the cop what the car colour thing was about. He could have done that in a polite tone and the whole thing been over in 2 minutes. The cop might have asked him to call into a local police station within a week with his license (which is reasonable, he's supposed to be carrying it anyway) and that would have been that. Instead the guy mouthed off, refused to comply with simple requests and generally acted like a smartass for no good reason whatsoever.

I'm just sick of people creating problems where they don't need to exist. Is it really so hard to just try and be nice and polite and decent with people you interact with? It's like those over-privileged cnuts who go into shops, treat the staff like total shit, and then if someone snaps at them go running to try and get the poor fecker fired. Obviously cops need to be held to a higher standard than that, but the whole thing never actually needed to happen in the first place. If that cop had just come from a domestic incident or a fatal road accident, you can see why he'd react badly to some spoiled cnut wasting his time. Still deserves to be reprimanded though of course.

 

[Cascarino]

Agreed re the cop, but seriously the driver was just being a total ass. The cop pulls him over for a perfectly reasonable reason, all he had to do was turn off the car, wind his window down and explain to the cop what the car colour thing was about. He could have done that in a polite tone and the whole thing been over in 2 minutes. The cop might have asked him to call into a local police station within a week with his license (which is reasonable, he's supposed to be carrying it anyway) and that would have been that. Instead the guy mouthed off, refused to comply with simple requests and generally acted like a smartass for no good reason whatsoever.

He had turned off the car (which I agree could be problematic had he not), regarding the window situation I’m assuming this video has happened recently, I can understand why he’d rather communicate without rolling it down to someone who is understandably not wearing a mask, England is in lockdown. He also did roll down the window after the officer escalated the situation by threatening action with a baton. Legally there is no legislation that requires you to carry your documents with you. This officer escalated the situation and then arrested the man because he was peeved and no other reason than that.

QUOTE="Kentonio, post: 26363279, member: 82927"]I'm just sick of people creating problems where they don't need to exist. Is it really so hard to just try and be nice and polite and decent with people you interact with? It's like those over-privileged cnuts who go into shops, treat the staff like total shit, and then if someone snaps at them go running to try and get the poor fecker fired. Obviously cops need to be held to a higher standard than that, but the whole thing never actually needed to happen in the first place. If that cop had just come from a domestic incident or a fatal road accident, you can see why he'd react badly to some spoiled cnut wasting his time. Still deserves to be reprimanded though of course.
[/QUOTE]

I can definitely sympathise with what officers often experience through their line of work. I’ve posted this before but my brother has experienced in some weeks what your average person won’t in a lifetime, and seen things that are heavily troubling. But while I can sympathise I can’t condone allowing that to colour your interactions with the general public. Like you said he does deserve to be reprimanded.

Also, I’d spin that argument and say what if the driver has had bad interactions wIth the police before? I’ve posted about my personal experiences (good and bad) with officers before, and I’ve had friends who have often been targeted for the way they look. It’s a tragic joke how often my black friends have been pulled over or searched on completely baseless grounds. The way they’ve been treated certainly affects their interactions with law enforcements now, if you get pulled over constantly for driving a nice car it certainly gets wearing.

 

[Kentonio]

Also, I’d spin that argument and say what if the driver has had bad interactions wIth the police before? I’ve posted about my personal experiences (good and bad) with officers before, and I’ve had friends who have often been targeted for the way they look. It’s a tragic joke how often my black friends have been pulled over or searched on completely baseless grounds. The way they’ve been treated certainly affects their interactions with law enforcements now, if you get pulled over constantly for driving a nice car it certainly gets wearing.

I can totally sympathize when its a black driver who has had to put up with years of being treated differently. This video just pissed me off because I've seen too many lads like this who just act like they're better than everyone and can make everyone elses lives harder just because they can. Oh and then find it just hilarious when some poor random ends up upset and angry over a pointless situation that never had to even happen. It just rubs me up the wrong way.

 

[TheReligion]

Legally there is no legislation that requires you to carry your documents with you.

There is.

 

[Cascarino]

There is.

Can you link me to it?
And if you have time, can you answer my fairly pedantic query further up the thread? Regarding searching upon arrest.

Edit:
Showing your driving documents
If a police officer asks you to, you must be able to show:

• your driving licence
• a valid insurance certificate
• a valid MOT certificate (if your vehicle needs one)

If you don’t have the documents with you at the time, you may be asked to take them to a police station within 7 days.

That is from the government website.