Policeless society - good or bad?

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Now that many communities are voting to disband their police force, is this really the right way to go?

This is meant to be distinct from the protests and meant for a theoretical discussion for future. Use other threads for posting on those topics.

There are couple ways, this goes based on articles:

• Replace with some kind of community effort.
• Fire everyone and rehire based on different hiring criteria.
• Reduce budget of cut down existing force to a fraction of current.

Though the changes look better in principle right now, I'm still not sure how they'll work out in long term.

Do you support any of the above? What'd be your choice? Eliminate, fix or rebuild?

 

[jungledrums]

Elimination of the institution of policing is surely an impractical and simplistic solution to what is a fairly complex problem I’d think. Perhaps a rethink is necessary, though, as to what the function of a police force within a democratic society should be. There tends to be an overly punitive approach to policing in the western world - perhaps an increased emphasis should be placed on the rehabilitation of offenders, rather than zero tolerance incarceration. The data around the long-term prospects of individuals that encounter the criminal justice system is rather damning.

Having said that, it is necessary to have some punishment for the most heinous offences. As ever, it seems Scandinavia is ahead of the curb in this respect. Not sure their model could be replicated, though.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Policing needs an overhaul but I'm mildly concerend that this how we end up with heavily armed "security forces" that ultimately destroy any semblance of liberty in the west.

 

[V.O.]

Policing needs an overhaul but I'm mildly concerend that this how we end up with heavily armed "security forces" that ultimately destroy any semblance of liberty in the west.

I vaguely remember a Louis Theroux doc about the policing situation in Johannesburg, and from what I remember of it, it was indeed a lot of people relying heavily on gun-toting mercenaries due to the anaemia of the actual police. I could very easily be misremembering if we have any SA posters to correct me.

 

[hmchan]

Hongkongers have been calling to disband the police force for a year. We are not asking for a policeless society, but a police force with accountability, integrity and transparency.

 

[hobbers]

A policeless society would be absolutely fine. So long as you dont mind heavily armed militias/gangs stepping in to replace them and ruling by their own terms. There will be a utopia, just with probably a little bit more rape, trafficking, theft and slaughter than people might have originally intentioned.

In the States at least there are definitely police forces in need of a total overhaul. Those "trial run" articles that I read about (i.e. Camden) had some really good ideas in them, even if they actually had nothing to do with defunding or disbanding the force. But some of the ideas were really good - Restarting forces from scratch. Putting community engagement at the centre of policing. Trying to get the force to represent the community it oversees by hiring people who actually live there. Keeping officers to the same locations and encouraging them to get to know the people who live on their beat.

And beyond that really what is needed is more officers with a lot more education and training. Which certainly won't ever be achievable with less funding. Fewer armored cars and more police with degrees, essentially.

 

[Sky1981]

It simply means those racist bastard can come openly on you and no one's gonna stop you.

Now that many communities are voting to disband their police force, is this really the right way to go?

This is meant to be distinct from the protests and meant for a theoretical discussion for future. Use other threads for posting on those topics.

There are couple ways, this goes based on articles:

• Replace with some kind of community effort.
• Fire everyone and rehire based on different hiring criteria.
• Reduce budget of cut down existing force to a fraction of current.

Though the changes look better in principle right now, I'm still not sure how they'll work out in long term.

Do you support any of the above? What'd be your choice? Eliminate, fix or rebuild?

• Replace with some kind of community effort.
  Easier said that done, good luck being a BAME in a place where the whites are the community majority. Like sheriff Joe Arpaio, if you replaced the police it'll still fall back to the same men / women who ended up with peacekeeping duties
• Fire everyone and rehire based on different hiring criteria.
  That will depends to the one doing the hiring to be objective and clean, if it falls to the same old people behind the same system then you'll at best slow down the rot, and it'll be back to square one.
• Reduce budget of cut down existing force to a fraction of current
  Not a fan of budget cutting, it's not the budget. It's the man behind those budget. I've said again and again it wasn't technology or gear that killed Floyd, it's the racism instinct behind the cop. He will still fouled George Floyd in any era (ancient, historical, mediveal, dark ages, etc). Police budgeting is a sort of bribe and tit for tat policy, it needs reform but it is not the main factor in racism.

And lastly, I won't want to live in a society without cops. A few bad cops being dirty is one thing, living in a society where a large number of the citizen are racist and descendant of KKK without actual police force will be your biggest nightmare.

My proposed solution is only 1 thing : Clear up the justice system, expediate and form a special independent investigators / jury / executioner institution specially for the cops doing bad stuff. Kinda like MP for the military. Give them Federal wide jurisdiction with the ability to penalized and finalized their finding out from state/local politics. When the possibility of getting caught is real the crime will stop.

 

[Sky1981]

Hongkongers have been calling to disband the police force for a year. We are not asking for a policeless society, but a police force with accountability, integrity and transparency.

 

[Dargonk]

A policeless society would fail very quickly. All that would happen is the biggest gang would take over the rule and instead of having a police force which follows the rules of society, the gang would be able to set their own rules. In effect, the police forces now are the biggest gang who are managing people to what society has deemed the acceptable rules.

What really needs to happen, is for better accountability of spending and making sure the police force actually follow the guidelines society imposes on them.

 

[hmchan]

Look at the source and you'll know it's the government's propaganda.

 

[Sky1981]

Look at the source and you'll know it's the government's propaganda.

Spoiler: Spoiler

If this happens in HK under UK Law you'd be jailed for sedition

“10. Offences(1)Any person who—(a)does or attempts to do, or makes any preparation to do, or conspires with any person to do, any act with a seditious intention; or(b)utters any seditious words; or(c)prints, publishes, sells, offers for sale, distributes, displays or reproduces any seditious publication; or(d)imports any seditious publication, unless he has no reason to believe that it is seditious,shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable for a first offence to a fine of $5,000 and to imprisonment for 2 years, and for a subsequent offence to imprisonment for 3 years; and any seditious publication shall be forfeited to the Crown.”

Look. this is not the thread. Go make a thread. Let's not get OOT here

 

[hmchan]

Spoiler: Spoiler

If this happens in HK under UK Law you'd be jailed for sedition

“10. Offences(1)Any person who—(a)does or attempts to do, or makes any preparation to do, or conspires with any person to do, any act with a seditious intention; or(b)utters any seditious words; or(c)prints, publishes, sells, offers for sale, distributes, displays or reproduces any seditious publication; or(d)imports any seditious publication, unless he has no reason to believe that it is seditious,shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable for a first offence to a fine of $5,000 and to imprisonment for 2 years, and for a subsequent offence to imprisonment for 3 years; and any seditious publication shall be forfeited to the Crown.”

Look. this is not the thread. Go make a thread. Let's not get OOT here

Fair enough. But I suggest you should look deeper into why Hongkongers are asking for disbanding the police force (which is the purpose of the OP) instead of just watching a government's propaganda and assuming it's the whole truth.

Spoiler: Spoiler

“In the majority of Common Law jurusdictions the offence of sedition has become virtually a dead letter. In England The Law Commission and, in Canada, the Law Reform Commmission have recommended its abolition. It is widely acknowledged to be an anachronistic political offence which has a chilling effect upon human rights, notably those of freedom of conscience and expression. In those jurisdictions where it is still an offence its scope is very narrow …. We believe that today a prosecution for sedition in England would be likely to fall foul of the Human Rights Act.”

Fact is, no one has ever been prosecuted for sedition in Hong Kong. People are arrested for illegal assembly and rioting in these social events.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Spoiler: Spoiler

If this happens in HK under UK Law you'd be jailed for sedition

“10. Offences(1)Any person who—(a)does or attempts to do, or makes any preparation to do, or conspires with any person to do, any act with a seditious intention; or(b)utters any seditious words; or(c)prints, publishes, sells, offers for sale, distributes, displays or reproduces any seditious publication; or(d)imports any seditious publication, unless he has no reason to believe that it is seditious,shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable for a first offence to a fine of $5,000 and to imprisonment for 2 years, and for a subsequent offence to imprisonment for 3 years; and any seditious publication shall be forfeited to the Crown.”

Look. this is not the thread. Go make a thread. Let's not get OOT here

Yet in the UK under UK law we have four separate countries and recently held an independence vote by Scotland. There is s reason it comes to this.

 

[golden_blunder]

The idea of policeless society is nonsense.
Total reform yes. Accountability yes. Quality control systems yes. Firing and rehiring yes.
No police? Good luck to business owners trying to protect their premises. Good luck to girls walking anywhere. Good luck to people withdrawing cash from atm. Good luck to old and vulnerable people living alone.
Did society learn nothing from Wild West times? The only people that would benefit from this preposterous idea are criminals, the gun business, and private security firms. Money will talk again. The man in the street will suffer more.

 

[TheReligion]

Now that many communities are voting to disband their police force, is this really the right way to go?

This is meant to be distinct from the protests and meant for a theoretical discussion for future. Use other threads for posting on those topics.

There are couple ways, this goes based on articles:

• Replace with some kind of community effort.
• Fire everyone and rehire based on different hiring criteria.
• Reduce budget of cut down existing force to a fraction of current.

Though the changes look better in principle right now, I'm still not sure how they'll work out in long term.

Do you support any of the above? What'd be your choice? Eliminate, fix or rebuild?

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous

 

[horsechoker]

Spoiler

 

[balaks]

Coming from a country that in the past (and to a lesser degree even today) had large areas of the country that the police basically couldn't go into here are my observations about what happens.

You get armed gangs who rise up to 'defend' the community. They tend to be extremely brutal and will dish out their form of justice in anyway they see fit. They will resist any other people trying to do the same thing which will lead to territory wars which tend to be extremely brutal and bloody. The community lives in fear of these gangs.

It's not a good idea.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

If you lack a police, you're only going to have posses, militarized neighborhood watches, other assorted rag tag mall cops like the two clowns in Georgia who murdered Ahmaud Arbery with even less oversight, training, accountability and more racism.

The right way is to reform the existing police departments, by bringing in external audits, oversight that will be made public under the freedom of information act to ensure transparency and regular meetings with community groups to improve trust with the people they serve.

 

[Ødegaard]

I'm with Geebs on this one. Although I'd put in that they also need to have their military toys taken away in the US.

 

[dove]

The stupidest idea I have ever heard but I am not surprised. If there is one thing that the current events proved once again is how stupid our society is.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Honestly getting rid of the police is one of the stupidest suggestions anyone could have thought of. While we are at it lets get rid of the firemen and doctors and nurses, I'm sure the communities can do that work too. The fact people are even considering this says it all about the current political and societal climate.

 

[OleBoiii]

 

[mu4c_20le]

It might work in a small town or community, but defunding the police is a much more practical model, so I'd choose the third option.

Instead of just putting more officers on the streets as the politicians and police unions would love to do, I'd like to see that money being put into community resources and perhaps creating a new dept with people specially trained to deal with mental health calls, to act as mediators and to only call in the police if there is an emergency or someones life is under immediate threat. Most police officers have no business dealing with mental health situations on the front line and end up killing the person they were supposed to check the wellness of.

 

[Wilt]

Escape from New York

 

[VeevaVee]

We sure are on a fast track to dystopian hell.

We don't need policeless. It just needs to be done better. I don't think we're that far off here in the UK to be honest. There's individual nob heads of various kinds. Plenty more could be done about that.
There's certainly an argument for the police being the muscle for the government rather than there for the people, but that needs to be solved by having a better government.

That being said, I'm all for the community aspects. Both are needed in my opinion. And America's policing definitely needs stripping back and starting again.

 

[balaks]

It might work in a small town or community, but defunding the police is a much more practical model, so I'd choose the third option.

Instead of just putting more officers on the streets as the politicians and police unions would love to do, I'd like to see that money being put into community resources and perhaps creating a new dept with people specially trained to deal with mental health calls, to act as mediators and to only call in the police if there is an emergency or someones life is under immediate threat. Most police officers have no business dealing with mental health situations on the front line and end up killing the person they were supposed to check the wellness of.

Firstly I'd love to see the evidence you must have that suggests that police officers end up killing the people they are checking the wellness of. Secondly - police do end up dealing with mental health situations regularly because we as a society have failed to adequately support mental health services with years of underfunding and lack of resources so there is nobody else who is available to be there when somebody is having an acute mental health crisis. That's not the police's fault - what would you rather they do? Just ignore people? As you said there needs to be significant funding into MH services but there isn't the political will to do it - they talk about it but nothing is ever done.

 

[Cait Sith]

Why would we abolish the concept of police just because a certain nation has a problem with armed to the teeth population, undereducation, racism and aggressiveness on every level? In any other developed western country police is one of the most trustworthy organisations and does not stand on a man's neck for 10 minutes or randomly shoot sleeping people in their cars based on skin color.

 

[balaks]

Why would we abolish the concept of police just because a certain nation has a problem with armed to the teeth population, undereducation, racism and aggressiveness on every level? In any other developed western country police is one of the most trustworthy organisations and does not stand on a man's neck for 10 minutes or randomly shoot sleeping people in their cars based on skin color.

100% - not saying UK police is perfect or not in need of reform but you can't compare American police to UK police. American police have been killing people regularly for decades and are well known for being trigger happy pseudo macho men.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Firstly I'd love to see the evidence you must have that suggests that police officers end up killing the people they are checking the wellness of. Secondly - police do end up dealing with mental health situations regularly because we as a society have failed to adequately support mental health services with years of underfunding and lack of resources so there is nobody else who is available to be there when somebody is having an acute mental health crisis. That's not the police's fault - what would you rather they do? Just ignore people? As you said there needs to be significant funding into MH services but there isn't the political will to do it - they talk about it but nothing is ever done.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7035236/vancouver-advocate-police-wellness-checks-chantel-moore/

https://theintercept.com/2019/09/29/police-shootings-mental-health/

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter...-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-law-enforcement-

 

[MrMarcello]

Policing needs an overhaul but I'm mildly concerend that this how we end up with heavily armed "security forces" that ultimately destroy any semblance of liberty in the west.

Erik Prince would get a hard-on reading this post.

 

[Robbo's Shoulder]

A police less society is impossible until there is a fair and equal society and given man's unending greed that's a long long way off.

 

[balaks]

https://globalnews.ca/news/7035236/vancouver-advocate-police-wellness-checks-chantel-moore/

https://theintercept.com/2019/09/29/police-shootings-mental-health/

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter...-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-law-enforcement-

Is any of that in the UK?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Is any of that in the UK?

Maybe? I could go look for some, but I'm about to take a nap. Also I'm assuming we are in agreement with the second part of my post, since what i'm advocating isn't anti-police, it actually helps them by taking a load off of them and delegating it to other specially trained people. For example, there is no need to send in police officers that are used to dealing with murderers, armed robbers and gangbangers to deal with an unruly kid at school. That's how we end up with viral footage of them beating the crap out of children.

 

[Foxbatt]

What does defund actually mean? I don't think it's calling for the elimination of the law enforcement agency.
Defund the way they are operating now. Yes they should not be funding them without meaningful reform.

 

[balaks]

Maybe? I could go look for some, but I'm about to take a nap. Also I'm assuming we are in agreement with the second part of my post, since what i'm advocating isn't anti-police, it actually helps them by taking a load off of them and delegating it to other specially trained people. For example, there is no need to send in police officers that are used to dealing with murderers, armed robbers and gangbangers to deal with an unruly kid at school. That's how we end up with viral footage of them beating the crap out of children.

You suggested that police end up killing people with mental health problems - that is something I'm challenging. We are agreeing on the need for much better funded and supported mental health services. Where are cops beating up unruly kids in school? Again - I'm assuming all this crazy shit is happening in America and not the UK normally.

 

[SirAF]

You need to reform the whole police education. If I’m not mistaken, in some states you can be an officer within 16 weeks or so? That’s not good enough. In Norway you have to complete a proper bachelor’s degree which includes courses on ethics, communication etc. That’s the way to go.

 

[altodevil]

Moronic idea

 

[Abizzz]

Loads of countries around the world need a clean slate restart to policing in my opinion. Those in favor of that ask for their current police forces to be disbanded. I've yet to come across anyone who thinks the concept of policing isn't needed, however I've come across a lot of people defending current policing arguing it's better than no policing. People have to face the fact that loads of police forces around the world aren't terribly noble and only as beneficial to society as a well run gang is. FAR RIGHT CAF INCOMMING

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't think we're that far off here in the UK to be honest.

This is true. My next door neighbour, 70 year old female, victim of an attempted car-jacking. Police wouldn't even come out. Many crimes are effectively legalised here due to a lack of funding.

 

[VidaRed]

Don't be ridiculous. We need the fecking police. The hiring policy needs to be looked at, something is clearly wrong if racists manage to slip through the cracks and become police officers.