[gerdm07]

I'd be genuinely curious how Fergie would handle the league with the current squad. The great man himself I absolutely adore him but I think in the modern game with so many teams around pressing hard the shit out of big teams he would struggle too. Maybe our defence would be more solid but at the expense of conceding even more possession and scoring crucial goals. These teams are much more threatening compared to once we could grind countless 1:0 results back in the day because of sheer quality over them and individual brilliance of some players consistently showing up.

And this is not saying he wouldn't adapt but like Mourinho the old schooler winner of everything absolutely lost his mojo with his approach I thinkit would be very hard for SAF now.

The bottom line is that we should be ready for more slips and dire seasons because we will inevitably lose a lot of points these well drilled teams which can harm us now. Only way up is to adapt our game to 2022 and beyond with recruitment of the squad and starting with a progressive manager.

Man City do not struggle against most of the other clubs. Are you saying the best SAF teams are not as good as City right now? Give me a team with Becks, Kean, Giggs, Ferdinand, Neville, Ruud, etc.... and I'm sure we would have as many points as City.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Man City do not struggle against most of the other clubs. Are you saying the best SAF teams are not as good as City right now? Give me a team with Becks, Kean, Giggs, Ferdinand, Neville, Ruud, etc.... and I'm sure we would have as many points as City.

Seems like you didn't read my comment, but I will still bother to reply. One thing is that at this point Beckham, Giggs and co would be in their 40s and he would have another team, the other thing is that the game changed a lot and we would start losing points against progressive playing teams who are packed with young and progressive managers plus quality players.

Fetgie himself admitted he found Barcelona unplayable at times and that he could only win as many as 2 CL titles, You know Barcelona played with the same kind of dominance as now they play with the same manager who has even more money to spend. Another freak manager in Klopp and many others in numbers, many better managers than back in the day with quality teams with more money to spend..

 

[VP89]

Massive nit-picking, which really just demonstrates my point. Maybe Lindelof could have gotten closer to Welbeck, but we're talking fractions.

The Moder header was from a first-time cross, so I really don't understand your point about Shaw closing down. Pretty hard to prevent a cross that's whipped in first-time!

It's not nit picking. There was a ball spread to the winger and Shaw was clearly far too casual - he borderline stood still to and just stuck his leg out. They had two clear headers that was basics in defending. There's no nitpicking whatsoever - you're insinuating they didn't really had a sniff on goal and I'm highlighting thats very false.

We are defending a lot better, thats true. But we don't need to exagerrate the narrative.

 

[A-man]

About 2 minutes into the game we had a free kick inside our own half on the right side. Lindelof surveyed the field, couldn’t find a pass he liked and turned round and passed back to DDG. De Gea was pressed and made a poor kick low and straight up the middle that was intercepted about 5 yards ahead of where Lindelof had started. We were then pinned back in our own half for about the next 4 minutes.

Then around the 18 minute mark Dalot had a free kick in our own half on the right side near the side-line. Dalot surveyed the field, couldn’t find a pass he liked and turned round and passed back to Lindelof deep in our own right hand corner of the field. Lindelof was pressed and kicked it into the middle of the field slightly ahead of where Dalot started from.

I don’t understand why we would ever make back-passes from free kicks in our own end. If a player can’t find a pass recipient from a dead ball when he can take his time and is under no pressure, why would they think the guy behind them who is further back, under pressure and with limited time is going to have better options. This kind of stuff drives me crazy.

This is something I’ve been wondering about as well. Why? Most teams do like this and I don’t see the point. Lindelof has good long balls. I prefer him taking a chance with a long ball rather than a stressed DDG clearing it.

 

[Belisarius]

This is something I’ve been wondering about as well. Why? Most teams do like this and I don’t see the point. Lindelof has good long balls. I prefer him taking a chance with a long ball rather than a stressed DDG clearing it.

I understand for a team like City. Pass it back to Ederson and he passes it to the left fullback and they eventually move up the field with the ball under control. But, with us, there was no outlet. It wasn't like DDG received the pass and played it to Maguire who played it to Shaw who then turned it over. DDG just kicked it wildly up the middle along the ground to Brighton's centre midfield.

Lindelof should have the ability to see whether there are passing lanes available to DDG before making the back pass. If not, just play the ball upfield and try for a 2nd ball in their end.

 

[NZT-One]

What I see is a squad that is still shellshocked by their poor performances earlier in the season and perform well under their ability. The talent is there to easily beat sides like Southampton and Brighton but these players lack confidence in themselves and their teammates. Their hesitation results in passes that aren’t made and shots straight at the keeper.

And let’s be honest: we have an incredibly weak link in midfield when Fred and/or McTominay are on the pitch.

There’s only so much digging out of the hole that’s possible this season but we’re capable of more performances such as what we saw last night. Not great, but good enough to dig out the result. We’ll get hammered by stronger sides soon, but if we can beat clubs we’re supposed to beat I’ll call that progress.

Fred and McTom have their issues, no denying in that but they are prominently in the "with the ball" department. Considering we played both of them as a double pivot, we should have been at least more stable. Both these players were bad yesterday - other teams play with even worse players in midfield and at least get compact against the ball.

That is my main issue from todays game: I could live with RR deciding to take the 1st half slow. Let Brighton get off their steam and take it back to then in 2nd half. But I don't understand, why we aren't setting up for it then. RR had to remind players in the first half of the formation 4-2-3-1. If you want to conserve energy and let the other team have the ball, thats a legit approach but when it was that, we didn't do a particularly bad job.

It is a bit worrying to see some people dismissing the chances Brighton got, while seeing the great trend in ours... Just look at the buildup for the headed chance that forced the save out of DDG. It is freightening.

I’ve watched the game back today, albeit an hour version, and whilst I’m not exactly happy with the overall performance I’m genuinely not sure what some of you expect at the moment?

Brighton dominated the ball first half but didn’t threaten much. De Gea made that cracking save but it seemed pretty comfortable even if not something you want to see on your own patch.

Second half United pressed high and had much more urgency. They started playing 5-10 yards higher up the pitch. This led to the Ronaldo goal and Dunk sending off.

After that we had much more of the ball, and created the better chances, although as time went on and we didn’t get the second anxiety grew and Brighton held the ball a bit more even if they created little other than the pot shot off the bar and the Welbeck chance near the end.

Given Brighton have drew twice with Chelsea, scored two and held Liverpool at Anfield and also taken points off Arsenal, they aren’t a bad team. They look after the ball well and are well drilled. We aren’t the only team that’s had to concede possession against them.

Ultimately yes our play is still disjointed but you have to understand the reasons why that is. Despite this our recent issue has been converting the chances we make into goals. This in turn puts pressure on the fragile midfield and defence as we’ve found ourselves hanging on to narrow leads which should be already put away. That happens to every single team in such circumstances though and isn’t anything new. You have to take your chances.

Undoubtedly losing Greenwood has hurt us along with the form of Rashford, the Ronaldo drought and Cavani being quite flakey. There’s only really Sancho kicking on.

If our forwards can get some form and confidence I genuinely think feeling will change. Converting 1-0 in to 2-0 is huge during a game and we need to start doing it quickly given the chances we are making.

I think we expect that we get better faster. Yesterdays game could have been a 1:1 copy of an Ole game from a year ago. I for one feel bad to criticize Ole for it but calling it visible progress under RR. I mean we did improve in some aspects, but the steps seem to be not as big as some describe them to be. We may be due to a rough awakening when we play more difficult games. Lets see, hopefully, it is some sort of plateauing.
Just to be clear, in no way shape or form am I critisizing the manager, I fear that I overstated the quality of our squad. But I have no issue to admit that I am starting to get a little bit worried. While we are a bit more stable at the back, it doesn't take much in form of speed of play and conviction to really challenge us. In attack we are also a bit more stable and our xG seems to be on an upward trend, but chance creation is still in issue in my eyes, as it seems to be very erratic. The improvements might as well be Sancho coming into form as the improvements I hoped the new manager would implement. I also don't really like the fact that RR didn't manage to convince the club to get a new player in in January. I am also a bit suprised how fast he seemingly dismissed his ideas (even if the reasoning behind is understandable). I wasn't expecting that - not a stick to beat him with but I wished he would have been more assertive.

Your description of how good Brighton was against other teams is all good and well, but we played against only ten of them for 35 minutes. Which coincided with us getting better. Well yeah, being a men up makes things easier, doesn't it? To me it doesn't feel right to call our play good or better when the opponent is on such a disadvantage. I am sure most on here were on the edge of their seats till the very end, don't know about you but the level of control wasn't as I would have hoped it to be against 10 men.

I agree about the issues with finishing of chances, it invites too much pressure on the team. You are also right about our attack being really fecked with Greenwood gone, Ronaldo going through a drought and Rashford, Cavani and Bruno being subpar for such a long time. No attack in the world can do a proper job with that many issues. Considering this, we are doing quite well.

I am genuinely interested in the games against the more difficult opponents. I still suspect some of the players not really turning up when it isn't a big occasion. Lets see in the champions league and the coming weeks. It is a brutal schedule.

 

[gerdm07]

Seems like you didn't read my comment, but I will still bother to reply. One thing is that at this point Beckham, Giggs and co would be in their 40s and he would have another team, the other thing is that the game changed a lot and we would start losing points against progressive playing teams who are packed with young and progressive managers plus quality players.

Fetgie himself admitted he found Barcelona unplayable at times and that he could only win as many as 2 CL titles, You know Barcelona played with the same kind of dominance as now they play with the same manager who has even more money to spend. Another freak manager in Klopp and many others in numbers, many better managers than back in the day with quality teams with more money to spend..

Man City are very good but I would not put them in the same category as Pep's Barcelona. That was an historic team and had Messi and Xavi. Man City do not have anyone of Messi and Xavi's quality.

So yes, Fergie found Barcelona unplayable but that was one of the greatest club teams ever. Again, if you plopped SAF's best teams in the 2000s in today league they would do very well, as well as Man City and Liverpool are doing today.

 

[Lentwood]

It's not nit picking. There was a ball spread to the winger and Shaw was clearly far too casual - he borderline stood still to and just stuck his leg out. They had two clear headers that was basics in defending. There's no nitpicking whatsoever - you're insinuating they didn't really had a sniff on goal and I'm highlighting thats very false.

We are defending a lot better, thats true. But we don't need to exagerrate the narrative.

I didn't say they never had a sniff, I am pointing out they at best had two half-chances, in a game where this forum and all of the pundits spent the entire 90-minutes berating how easy we are to play against.

This is the Premier League in 2022 and teams like Brighton are full of International footballers, we're not going to go through games at walking pace like we did at times in the 90s or 00s. These sides are so powerful financially and have incredibly talented players.

On the flip-side of all of that, the narrative was that Brighton played really well and deserved something from the game. Well, think about the chances we had....I can count

* Sancho one-vs-one shot saved by Brighton GK
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the left
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the right
* Fernandes miss from 8 yards out, centre of the goal

Plus the fact we actually scored two goals on the night!

So, what I am saying is, we supposedly gout outplayed for large parts of the game, we didn't have huge amounts of territory or possession, yet our oft-derided defence managed to limit them to two half-chances, whilst I guarantee Brighton's defenders will have largely come away with plaudits from that game, bar maybe Dunk

Just one final point on that subject...Sky Sports gave Harry Maguire a 5/10. In what possible Universe does that performance warrant a 5/10? We kept a clean-sheet and I think even Maguire's biggest critics would say it was just a solid, safe performance. Yet he gets a 5/10, and people say there's no agenda. Don't fall for it people! Talking about '£80m flops' at United sells engagements! See Pogba.

 

[Perseus]

I really dont see how that is possible. Did we only win possession by them giving it to us?

It wasn't. Tackles were about even over the whole game with McT leading the way. Stats were about even all the way, apart from goals scored. The class of de Gea, Fernandes, Ronaldo*. Pogba was the difference. Welbeck rose for a swansong and deserved an equaliser. *If Moder could shoot/head like Ronaldo he would have had a hatrick.

 

[RedSky]

I didn't say they never had a sniff, I am pointing out they at best had two half-chances, in a game where this forum and all of the pundits spent the entire 90-minutes berating how easy we are to play against.

This is the Premier League in 2022 and teams like Brighton are full of International footballers, we're not going to go through games at walking pace like we did at times in the 90s or 00s. These sides are so powerful financially and have incredibly talented players.

On the flip-side of all of that, the narrative was that Brighton played really well and deserved something from the game. Well, think about the chances we had....I can count

* Sancho one-vs-one shot saved by Brighton GK
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the left
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the right
* Fernandes miss from 8 yards out, centre of the goal

Plus the fact we actually scored two goals on the night!

So, what I am saying is, we supposedly gout outplayed for large parts of the game, we didn't have huge amounts of territory or possession, yet our oft-derided defence managed to limit them to two half-chances, whilst I guarantee Brighton's defenders will have largely come away with plaudits from that game, bar maybe Dunk

Just one final point on that subject...Sky Sports gave Harry Maguire a 5/10. In what possible Universe does that performance warrant a 5/10? We kept a clean-sheet and I think even Maguire's biggest critics would say it was just a solid, safe performance. Yet he gets a 5/10, and people say there's no agenda. Don't fall for it people! Talking about '£80m flops' at United sells engagements! See Pogba.

The Welbeck header was not a half chance. He should have buried that chance. They had a few decent chances in the first half too, De Gea made a great save at one point.

 

[Perseus]

This is the same Brighton who Chelsea have failed to beat twice this season, the same Brighton that drew 2-2 at Anfield and got a point against Arsenal

Not really. BHA had their first XI out against United for the first time this season. Top ten for half the match though. When looking at the Brighton team I thought that was gonna be a hell of a difficult side to beat. Bissouma did not really look match fit though.

 

[daveoliver91]

Few points from Tuesday's game:

• Very bad first half, players very sloppy. Couldn't control the game at all and we didn't cause any threat. Also credit to Brighton who are very organised, play very well as a team and didn't give us a chance. The atmosphere in the stadium was cold as were the team.
• The second half we looked sharper, with some hunger to win the game and thanks to a mistake from them (which I did not expect) we scored. Then, everything got a bit easier. However, it's frustrating to see how we can't finish some very clear chances.

Hopefully this Sunday against Leeds, who are actually trying to go for the game, I presume we will have more spaces so we can run more and cause more trouble. If Bruno has a good day on Sunday, I see him scoring and giving some assists.

 

[Perseus]

I am really disappointed to be honest. Before the game, I didn't expect to win at OT (we never do) but I thought after that first half we were in with a good shout and with the prospect of Lamptey and Welbeck coming on against tired legs, I was hopeful.

The red card obviously changed everything. But I don't get why it was red card and why VAR was even involved. The ref made an on field decision for yellow and though Dunk did foul Elanga he wasn't the last man, Webster was clearly there covering. Clear cut no need for VAR, I rewatched the game on MUTV and even your commentators didn't think it was a red.

Still I guess that's football sometimes and despite that, I thought we put in an excellent performance with 10 men and were dangerous right up until the final whistle. So disappointed but happy with the team performance, I thought Cucurella especilly had an excellent game and caused you all sorts if issues.

BHA played the first half a bit cautious (remembering what happened to Southampton last season) and the plan was always to unleash the Lamptey-Welbeck attack in the second half. but events could not have gone more wrong. I thought that Rangwick got the tactics right by not pressing too hard and getting worn out chasing shadows.

 

[pascell]

The stuff of nightmares

 

[The Boy]

events could not have gone more wrong.

I am still adamant that that was never a red card.

 

[Lentwood]

The Welbeck header was not a half chance. He should have buried that chance. They had a few decent chances in the first half too, De Gea made a great save at one point.

Yes, we have talked about that. I'd say the Moder header was the best chance and the Welbeck header was more difficult.

I repeat my point though. It seems that your standards and the standards of this forum are that we concede no chances, and if we do, it's because the defence are s**t.

As I have said, our midfield and attackers offer very little defensively, either with respect work-rate or tactical discipline. In addition, the PL is the toughest league in the World, and teams like Brighton have insanely high net-spends and teams full of International footballers. The likelihood of these teams have no chances in a game is slim.

Really, I am just pointing out that we missed four chances that I think could fairly be described as 'sitters', especially the two Ronaldo headers and the Fernandes chance. Those go in 9/10 times. Our midfield was non-existent and our passing was appalling. All told, I think our back four were excellent and De Gea earnt his money with that save (although I wish he could kick a ball!)

 

[Perseus]

I am still adamant that that was never a red card.

If it was Ronaldo that was fouled it would have been a goalscoring opportunity, Elanga not so, Moder, Gross not so.

 

[The Boy]

Yes, we have talked about that. I'd say the Moder header was the best chance and the Welbeck header was more difficult.

I repeat my point though. It seems that your standards and the standards of this forum are that we concede no chances, and if we do, it's because the defence are s**t.

As I have said, our midfield and attackers offer very little defensively, either with respect work-rate or tactical discipline. In addition, the PL is the toughest league in the World, and teams like Brighton have insanely high net-spends and teams full of International footballers. The likelihood of these teams have no chances in a game is slim.

Really, I am just pointing out that we missed four chances that I think could fairly be described as 'sitters', especially the two Ronaldo headers and the Fernandes chance. Those go in 9/10 times. Our midfield was non-existent and our passing was appalling. All told, I think our back four were excellent and De Gea earnt his money with that save (although I wish he could kick a ball!)

Agree with most of this except "teams like Brighton have insanely high net-spends" our net spend since arriving in the premiership for the 17/18 season is just under 100M. That's a lot of money for us but a pittance in premier league terms.

An insanely high net spend is more like United's which is probably more than 100M every season!

 

[NZT-One]

I didn't say they never had a sniff, I am pointing out they at best had two half-chances, in a game where this forum and all of the pundits spent the entire 90-minutes berating how easy we are to play against.

This is the Premier League in 2022 and teams like Brighton are full of International footballers, we're not going to go through games at walking pace like we did at times in the 90s or 00s. These sides are so powerful financially and have incredibly talented players.

On the flip-side of all of that, the narrative was that Brighton played really well and deserved something from the game. Well, think about the chances we had....I can count

* Sancho one-vs-one shot saved by Brighton GK
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the left
* Ronaldo header from Fernandes cross from the right
* Fernandes miss from 8 yards out, centre of the goal

Plus the fact we actually scored two goals on the night!

So, what I am saying is, we supposedly gout outplayed for large parts of the game, we didn't have huge amounts of territory or possession, yet our oft-derided defence managed to limit them to two half-chances, whilst I guarantee Brighton's defenders will have largely come away with plaudits from that game, bar maybe Dunk

Just one final point on that subject...Sky Sports gave Harry Maguire a 5/10. In what possible Universe does that performance warrant a 5/10? We kept a clean-sheet and I think even Maguire's biggest critics would say it was just a solid, safe performance. Yet he gets a 5/10, and people say there's no agenda. Don't fall for it people! Talking about '£80m flops' at United sells engagements! See Pogba.

This feels a very generous take to me. Obviously Brighton are no names, they are one of the inform teams since last year but still, all opponents play them just as well. You are right, we shouldn't expect flawless performances and considering our personnel issues in attack, we are doing alright, but for all "Look we beat an inform Brighton side which is full of internationals" we can place a "they had more of the ball, better chances in 1st half and looked more competent on the ball even with a man down" to level the field.
I think, some of you interpreting some of the claims on here wrong: we all know that flawlessness isn't possible and that outside factors influence on-the-pitch stuff. Thats fine and accepted, just like calling a subpar performance a subpar performance. I'd be genuinely suprised if RR would describe it internally any different.

I've given Maguire a 5/10 as well, he met expectation, didn't really notice him doing major mistakes, nor did notice him doing something exceptionally well. A football match consists of two actors, just because we kept a clean sheet, doesn't have to mean that our defenders were really good. Brighton had a few chances and they were a man down for most of the 2nd half. Our defense didn't do any major mistakes, which is something to be happy about but nothing to praise as well. At least thats my view. What grade did you give to Maguire? 6 or even higher?

 

[Maticmaker]

About 2 minutes into the game we had a free kick inside our own half on the right side. Lindelof surveyed the field, couldn’t find a pass he liked and turned round and passed back to DDG. De Gea was pressed and made a poor kick low and straight up the middle that was intercepted about 5 yards ahead of where Lindelof had started. We were then pinned back in our own half for about the next 4 minutes.

Then around the 18 minute mark Dalot had a free kick in our own half on the right side near the side-line. Dalot surveyed the field, couldn’t find a pass he liked and turned round and passed back to Lindelof deep in our own right hand corner of the field. Lindelof was pressed and kicked it into the middle of the field slightly ahead of where Dalot started from.

I don’t understand why we would ever make back-passes from free kicks in our own end. If a player can’t find a pass recipient from a dead ball when he can take his time and is under no pressure, why would they think the guy behind them who is further back, under pressure and with limited time is going to have better options. This kind of stuff drives me crazy.

Other than free kicks that are around the pen box where clearly some 'practice' on the training pitch has taken place (or you would think so!), our approach to taking them 'as set pieces' is at times bewildering.
Most of the free kicks we get in the middle of the pitch tend to go backwards or side ways and most of the time when the so called quick short free kick is taken the player receiving the ball has that surprised look on his face.
Admittedly the quick free kick can be useful (Pogba's to Bruno for the second goal ), but usually we seem to squander any advantage we should gain by being able to effectively require the opposition to retreat 10 metres and wait for us to restart the game.

 

[red woppit]

I noticed that too. He didn't even try to jump. I know the Brighton guy was bigger, but at least challenge and try and put him off.

However, other than that one play, I did think Dalot played very well overall.

I didn't see the match, but observing Dalot from other games, his defensive work has definitely improved, albeit there is still plenty of room for improvement, and he seems to be getting more confidence in going forward.
I would be interested to see how AWB performs now that his position is under threat, it worked for Shaw.

 

[Lentwood]

Agree with most of this except "teams like Brighton have insanely high net-spends" our net spend since arriving in the premiership for the 17/18 season is just under 100M. That's a lot of money for us but a pittance in premier league terms.

An insanely high net spend is more like United's which is probably more than 100M every season!

True, it's all relative, but according to Google Brighton have spent £202m net over the last five seasons. That is about par for the PL, but it certainly wouldn't be par for mid-table Serie A, Ligue Un, Bundesliga or La Liga.

My point really is about how competitive the PL is. I think there's an arrogance about some posters on here who think we have a God-given right to steamroller teams like Brighton, which is just wrong and also disrespectful.

 

[kingEric68]

Awful on Tuesday. Worse than the city defeat by a long way. Was there and nobody wanted the ball. Slabhead/Fred/Bruno/Shaw we’re all petrified of the ball - confidence is shot. I’d seriously bring back Jones at the back and give Jessie a go

 

[justsomebloke]

Obviously this wasn't a fantastic performance, but let's be clear here that this was a very good result against a team that has been good enough to challenge pretty much every team in the league for points, including teams that are better than us.

If you put this in the context of Brighton's other game against the teams in running for 4th place or better (Ie, Wolves and upwards), this was not just one of the best scorelines achieved against them, it also stacks up well in most other categories. Obviously Dunk's sending off had an impact on that, but we can only analyse the game that actually happened.

Brighton's played 8 games against those opponents. This was only the third they lost (the other ones being 1-4 to City and 0-1 to Wolves). In other words, this was the second-best result a top 8 team achieved against them this season. The remaining 5 games were all draws (Chelsea 1-1 twice, West ham 1-1, Arsenal 0-0, Liverpool 2-2).

The 19 shots we got against them were bested only by City in the 4-1 win in October (23). On average, Brighton allowed 14 shots in these 8 games.

Only West Ham and Liverpool allowed fewer shots by Brighton (both 9) than our 10. Their average was 12,4.

Possession-wise, this was pretty average - their 50% possession was their fourth-highest in these 8 games, with the West Ham, Wolves and Arsenal games yielding higher possession figures. Given that all three of those are typically not possession-oriented (Wolves, West Ham) or were in a really dysfunctional phase (Arsenal in R7), not to mention playing nearly a whole half understrength, that is not an overly impressive statistic for United.

It was one of Brighton's better games in terms of offense created, and this (together with their relatively high possession) is perhaps the main negative standout for United. Their xG of 1.26 was equalled only against West Ham, and bettered only in the wild 2-2 draw with Liverpool (1.51). Their average over those 8 games is 1.1.

On the other hand, we created significantly more against them than almost all other top 8 opponents they've had. City had a better xG in their 4-1 pummeling (3.75), but other than that our 2.75 was nearly twice as good as the number 3 on that list (Liverpool, 1.4). The average is 1.46.

Of course, it bears mention again that the fact Brighton had Dunk sent off early in the second half has a lot of impact on this. Still, for the most part what we delivered in this game stacks up pretty very well compared to what other top teams have managed against Brighton this season. Which should indicate that at the very least, you're probably in need of adjusting your perception if you think this was a really awful performance.

 

[NZT-One]

Obviously this wasn't a fantastic performance, but let's be clear here that this was a very good result against a team that has been good enough to challenge pretty much every team in the league for points, including teams that are better than us.

...

Of course, it bears mention again that the fact Brighton had Dunk sent off early in the second half has a lot of impact on this. Still, for the most part what we delivered in this game stacks up pretty very well compared to what other top teams have managed against Brighton this season. Which should indicate that at the very least, you're probably in need of adjusting your perception if you think this was a really awful performance.

Thats an interesting take. So I saw a game that I felt was disappointing. Disappointing because our team didn't do very well. Now you go compare the stats we achieved against Brighton (with a man down for almost half of the game) and come to the conclusion, that expectations must be to high because other teams mostly didn't do better against them. Why do you do that? Are you looking for reasons to tell yourself that it wasn't as bad as it maybe felt or do you try to picture other standpoints as overexpectations?

We can draw relativize anything into a game and out of a game. And while I totally get the notion that a calm and patient fanbase is more pleasant than an overly critic one, nobody will change the perception a person has of a certain event. Another poster went as far as calling some opinions disrespectful because Brighton are a good team. Thats ridiculous, no serious poster will deny Brightons quality, but the critique isn't about Brighton played well against us but that is was easy to see how far behind United still seems to be (and additionally how whacky some notions are that it needs nothing than a 100mio DM to finally get us challenging). There is no point in emphasizing Brightons quality to explain a questionable performance by United. Because it is just that, a questionable performance. It can have 1000 reasons and such a performance isn't the end of the world. But it should go down as that. We did the same under the first manager, we separate performance from result. Because it is a sensible thing to do.

Two simple yes-no questions:
Have you been happy watching what United was delivering?
Do you think we have to improve because playing like we did, there is a big chance of struggling in the bigger games?

(In my perception, there can only be one answer to both questions. And based on that I know we have to do some serious work to do. And thats it, nobody has to talk about the game anymore, we got the result, we evaluated the performance and we know what to do from here. If I think the performance is alright/ok/fine/perfectly suited to the opponent, there is nothing to take away from)[/QUOTE]

 

[city-puma]

Thats an interesting take. So I saw a game that I felt was disappointing. Disappointing because our team didn't do very well. Now you go compare the stats we achieved against Brighton (with a man down for almost half of the game) and come to the conclusion, that expectations must be to high because other teams mostly didn't do better against them. Why do you do that? Are you looking for reasons to tell yourself that it wasn't as bad as it maybe felt or do you try to picture other standpoints as overexpectations?

We can draw relativize anything into a game and out of a game. And while I totally get the notion that a calm and patient fanbase is more pleasant than an overly critic one, nobody will change the perception a person has of a certain event. Another poster went as far as calling some opinions disrespectful because Brighton are a good team. Thats ridiculous, no serious poster will deny Brightons quality, but the critique isn't about Brighton played well against us but that is was easy to see how far behind United still seems to be (and additionally how whacky some notions are that it needs nothing than a 100mio DM to finally get us challenging). There is no point in emphasizing Brightons quality to explain a questionable performance by United. Because it is just that, a questionable performance. It can have 1000 reasons and such a performance isn't the end of the world. But it should go down as that. We did the same under the first manager, we separate performance from result. Because it is a sensible thing to do.

Two simple yes-no questions:
Have you been happy watching what United was delivering?
Do you think we have to improve because playing like we did, there is a big chance of struggling in the bigger games?

(In my perception, there can only be one answer to both questions. And based on that I know we have to do some serious work to do. And thats it, nobody has to talk about the game anymore, we got the result, we evaluated the performance and we know what to do from here. If I think the performance is alright/ok/fine/perfectly suited to the opponent, there is nothing to take away from)

[/QUOTE]
First half, we played a conservative game to save energy for the high pressing play in the second half. We ended up trying our best to limit and constraint Brighton in the first half. Ok, I take it cause Ralf needs to do certain experiments and alternate things.
After the sent off of Dunk, the game we played was beyond ridiculous. It’s not enough to describe it as disappointing. The disjointed team was a direct reflection of our players under Ralf, confused and out of idea. They just didn’t know what to do. They completely relied on their instincts and reactions to play the last thirty mins as individuals. The 10-men Brighton just showed us what modern football should be played. We have regressed this much.
so,you are not the only one feeling so bad after watching the game.

 

[Niall]

@Niall @Damien For some reason the line-up shows Varane and not Lindelöf as playing.

Yep my bad. This is now fixed and lineup prediction scores/tables updated to have Lindelof instead of Varane.

 

[justsomebloke]

Thats an interesting take. So I saw a game that I felt was disappointing. Disappointing because our team didn't do very well. Now you go compare the stats we achieved against Brighton (with a man down for almost half of the game) and come to the conclusion, that expectations must be to high because other teams mostly didn't do better against them. Why do you do that? Are you looking for reasons to tell yourself that it wasn't as bad as it maybe felt or do you try to picture other standpoints as overexpectations?

We can draw relativize anything into a game and out of a game. And while I totally get the notion that a calm and patient fanbase is more pleasant than an overly critic one, nobody will change the perception a person has of a certain event. Another poster went as far as calling some opinions disrespectful because Brighton are a good team. Thats ridiculous, no serious poster will deny Brightons quality, but the critique isn't about Brighton played well against us but that is was easy to see how far behind United still seems to be (and additionally how whacky some notions are that it needs nothing than a 100mio DM to finally get us challenging). There is no point in emphasizing Brightons quality to explain a questionable performance by United. Because it is just that, a questionable performance. It can have 1000 reasons and such a performance isn't the end of the world. But it should go down as that. We did the same under the first manager, we separate performance from result. Because it is a sensible thing to do.

Two simple yes-no questions:
Have you been happy watching what United was delivering?
Do you think we have to improve because playing like we did, there is a big chance of struggling in the bigger games?

(In my perception, there can only be one answer to both questions. And based on that I know we have to do some serious work to do. And thats it, nobody has to talk about the game anymore, we got the result, we evaluated the performance and we know what to do from here. If I think the performance is alright/ok/fine/perfectly suited to the opponent, there is nothing to take away from)

Why do I do that? How happy was I watching it? What, would it have been more interesting and useful to you if instead of writing that I had gone on about how furious/disappointed/sceptical/happy I was? If that's what you're after, there's no shortage of that on this thread, or elsewhere.

Relativizing? What is that you think I'm relativizing? Is what you, or I, or anyone, feel about our performance a solid fact that shouldn't be needlessly muddled up by things like metrics?

I wasn't particularly impressed by our performance, or very upbeat as the whistle blew. It seems to me we have some way to go before we can call ourselves a really good team. But maybe I'm less convinced than you (in which you would not be alone) that my grasp of football is so exceptional that I can safely assume my brain automatically takes in all relevant aspects of the game, and intuitively comes up with a flawless judgment. Hence, I like to consider metrics as well, sort of like a second opinion. In this case, and somewhat to my own surprise, it does seem that we did achieve rather more than I would have thought - in terms of fairly key things like final result, chances created and shots. Not sure why you think I conclude from that that "expectations are too high". I do think that there's a limit to how shit you can reasonably argue that the performance was given what we produced.

Other than that, I'm not really drawing any particular conclusions from it. It's what it is.

 

[NZT-One]

Why do I do that? How happy was I watching it? What, would it have been more interesting and useful to you if instead of writing that I had gone on about how furious/disappointed/sceptical/happy I was? If that's what you're after, there's no shortage of that on this thread, or elsewhere.

Relativizing? What is that you think I'm relativizing? Is what you, or I, or anyone, feel about our performance a solid fact that shouldn't be needlessly muddled up by things like metrics?

I wasn't particularly impressed by our performance, or very upbeat as the whistle blew. It seems to me we have some way to go before we can call ourselves a really good team. But maybe I'm less convinced than you (in which you would not be alone) that my grasp of football is so exceptional that I can safely assume my brain automatically takes in all relevant aspects of the game, and intuitively comes up with a flawless judgment. Hence, I like to consider metrics as well, sort of like a second opinion. In this case, and somewhat to my own surprise, it does seem that we did achieve rather more than I would have thought - in terms of fairly key things like final result, chances created and shots. Not sure why you think I conclude from that that "expectations are too high". I do think that there's a limit to how shit you can reasonably argue that the performance was given what we produced.

Other than that, I'm not really drawing any particular conclusions from it. It's what it is.

Yeah fair enough. I am glad, you didn't seem to have taken my questions too confrontational. Reading it again, it seems like there is some sort of subtext involved when it really isn't. I totally agree with what you said. Just to make sure, I think it is a good way to give yourself a new angle on things, and using stats is a very valid angle. So my critique wasn't directed at that.

What I meant with relativizing (I had to look up the translation, I hope I used it correctly) was purely the "fact" that setting our performance in context (to the performances of other teams against the same opponent) only changes the perception of it - not the performance itself. And while I agree, I too am not the perfect rational observer without bias's and preconceptions. My disappointing was mainly due to Brighton showing what a good plan can do to a team. Seeing this is so blunt "hurt" a bit as it emphasized the contrast between Brighton and us in that respect. I mean, we all know, we are behind in such things - it still hurts to see the extend on a given day.

I don't think it was you who went the infamous road of "be happy with the result, what kind of fans are you to be disappointed". But these voices were there and I had hoped we'd have learned the lesson after Ole. It is fine to walk from result to result as long as you (at least internally) draw the right conclusions to work on things. And that is something we unfortunately will never know for sure and can only guess my interpreting what we are seeing on the screen.

 

[Chris M]

A win is a win and there are some positives, especially after the Greenwood drama that must have caused a bit of disunity in the squad.

De Gea, Varane, Dalot, Pogba, Fernandes, Sancho and Ronaldo you would be happy with.
Telles I'd prefer over Shaw
Fred, McTominay, Rashford a bit hit and miss.
Ilanga too soon to say.
Cavani great when he is fit.
The rest are either young and not tested or have there best days behind them or second choice squad players with not too much quality.
Shaw over rated and looks out of shape, the number of times he can either pass down the line and move, pass inside and move but chooses to pass back and stand still. Its frustrating.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yeah fair enough. I am glad, you didn't seem to have taken my questions too confrontational. Reading it again, it seems like there is some sort of subtext involved when it really isn't. I totally agree with what you said. Just to make sure, I think it is a good way to give yourself a new angle on things, and using stats is a very valid angle. So my critique wasn't directed at that.

What I meant with relativizing (I had to look up the translation, I hope I used it correctly) was purely the "fact" that setting our performance in context (to the performances of other teams against the same opponent) only changes the perception of it - not the performance itself. And while I agree, I too am not the perfect rational observer without bias's and preconceptions. My disappointing was mainly due to Brighton showing what a good plan can do to a team. Seeing this is so blunt "hurt" a bit as it emphasized the contrast between Brighton and us in that respect. I mean, we all know, we are behind in such things - it still hurts to see the extend on a given day.

I don't think it was you who went the infamous road of "be happy with the result, what kind of fans are you to be disappointed". But these voices were there and I had hoped we'd have learned the lesson after Ole. It is fine to walk from result to result as long as you (at least internally) draw the right conclusions to work on things. And that is something we unfortunately will never know for sure and can only guess my interpreting what we are seeing on the screen.

Thanks yourself, for a very constructive reply.

I think I see what you're getting at, and I agree.

On the one hand, there are always people who are unhappy even when the results are good. And who are unhappy with players who by any reasonable definition are having dominant seasons. I don't think you can get away from the fact that there are people who just convince themselves about the wrongness of something, and then that becomes the only thing they are able to see. On the other hand, as last season and this shows, it's not necessarily the case that improving results prove that things are moving in the right direction. And confirmation bias works that way too.

Where this leaves all of us I am not altogether sure. My general feeling lately is that I honestly don't have a clue how this is going to develop, or what to expect. But at least we've started scoring again. I l also think a very big positive yesterday was how well we fought back after Leeds equalised. Other than that, the specific circumstances of the game (lake-like pitch, intense derby etc) were perhaps too dominant to read very much into what we saw.

The Athletic have been going on lately about how last season we played according to an approach they call "working the space". Apparently, we were spending the first halves of games carefully probing for weaknesses, and when we'd found them, and the other team became tired and made mistakes, we exploited them. I don't know how they know that, but if it's true, it'd explain a lot of how we played last season, and would effectively mean a lot of people spent last season looking for something that wasn't there by design, rather than something the coaches tried but failed to put in place. Unfortunately, it also seems to me to explain pretty well how we fell apart this season. In effect, that approach is saying to the players "here's a puzzle, you've got 90 minutes to solve it". I can see how that might wear people down in the long run. And once you hit the wall with that approach, how exactly are you going to climb it?