Yikes I thought Ronaldo was poor last night but I didn't realise just how poor. At least Fred is thriving under Ralf so far.
PL W FA Premier League
Norwich City 0:1 Manchester United
Post-match discussion
Sat, 11 December 2021
Maybe we should slow down a bit here? Look at things in perspective? There's been so many phases now it's dizzying.
First, we have the good parts of the OGS era, which is important because it shows the peak of how this squad have proven able to perform. I'm thinking about the post-Bruno third of the 2019-20 season, and maybe the first half of our 28-game unbeaten run in the middle part of last season. This was marked by very good results and no defeats. We quite often won by blowaway scores against inferior teams, but we did not look quite the finished article in the way we played, and we frequently fell behind in games.
Second, we have the last part of last season and up to and including the West Ham game this season. Here, results were more spotty, although we mostly managed to get wins. Disconcertingly often however, results went against the run of the game, wins were usually narrow and we were looking increasingly vulnerable and dysfunctional.
Third, we have the period from the Aston Villa defeat through Ole's last game, against Watford.
We generally lost (or at best, drew), and were a complete disaster on the pitch. This was collapse - and as such also not really a measure of what to expect from this squad.
Fourth, we have Carricks interim caretaker period, two PL games.
Here we started getting the results again, and we dragged ourselves out of dark place we were in during phase 3, but this was achieved through an increased emphasis on defensive solidity and we were not by any stretch dominating games. We were, perhaps, a more defenisvely stable version of phase 2, but a long way off where we were in phase 1. We were still looking a long way off the finished article on the pitch.
Fifth and finally, we have the two games under Rangnick.
Again, the results have been there and again we're a long way off the top level we've had during the past couple of years. If Palace looked like a promising start, Norwich was regression from that. But, we are transitioning to a new manager and a new system, it's to be expected.
It's interesting to note the see-saw between defensive and offensive issues. What sparked the "Golden Bruno period" , to use that phrase, was that our offensive game suddenly clicked. Not through a change of style, but because Bruno delivered exactly what we were missing to make the style of play we already had work. But then came the disastrous start to the 20/21 season, which clearly triggered a defensive rebalancing, with the McFred midfield becoming our mainstay.
That worked very well for a while in terms of results, but I think it also increasingly started to show up the limitations of the team, and arrested the upwards trend in our offensive game. Blowaway wins became rarer, and we visibly were not dominating games, including against weaker opponents.
I think the trajectory that put us on played itself out late last season, and early this season. Results, though still pretty good, declined and we were looking more and more vulnerable on the pitch. The solution this time however was - nothing. No major adjustement was made. We just carried on.
That is, until Ronaldo arrived. It seems apparent that we then attempted to go back to a more offensive approach. Which I suppose was logical considering the additions to the squad, but which obviously backfired spectacularly. We just did not have the structure and stability in place to cope with the defensive fallout, or for that matter to implement a functioning offensive game. It all came apart.
Then with Carrick, we once more move back in a more defensive direction. Keep it tight, take it from there. Which we were able to, but we were still not really working very well offensively.
And now with Rangnick, the primary emphasis remains explicitly on the defensive side of things.
If you look at all of that together, it seems clear to me that
1. We're not currently the finished article either defensively or offensively
2. Our recent history shows that we can't sustain a successful attacking style without having a stronger structural and defensive foundation.
3. Building that foundation is going to be points A, B and C on the list of priorities.
4. Only then are we going to see the development of a more consistently dynamic offensive game. And that game is going to have to grow out of the conditions created by our defensive game and our pressing. Until then, we're going to get by on setpieces and moments of individual brilliance, save for the occasional golden evening where everything clicks.
First, we have the good parts of the OGS era, which is important because it shows the peak of how this squad have proven able to perform. I'm thinking about the post-Bruno third of the 2019-20 season, and maybe the first half of our 28-game unbeaten run in the middle part of last season. This was marked by very good results and no defeats. We quite often won by blowaway scores against inferior teams, but we did not look quite the finished article in the way we played, and we frequently fell behind in games.
Second, we have the last part of last season and up to and including the West Ham game this season. Here, results were more spotty, although we mostly managed to get wins. Disconcertingly often however, results went against the run of the game, wins were usually narrow and we were looking increasingly vulnerable and dysfunctional.
Third, we have the period from the Aston Villa defeat through Ole's last game, against Watford.
We generally lost (or at best, drew), and were a complete disaster on the pitch. This was collapse - and as such also not really a measure of what to expect from this squad.
Fourth, we have Carricks interim caretaker period, two PL games.
Here we started getting the results again, and we dragged ourselves out of dark place we were in during phase 3, but this was achieved through an increased emphasis on defensive solidity and we were not by any stretch dominating games. We were, perhaps, a more defenisvely stable version of phase 2, but a long way off where we were in phase 1. We were still looking a long way off the finished article on the pitch.
Fifth and finally, we have the two games under Rangnick.
Again, the results have been there and again we're a long way off the top level we've had during the past couple of years. If Palace looked like a promising start, Norwich was regression from that. But, we are transitioning to a new manager and a new system, it's to be expected.
It's interesting to note the see-saw between defensive and offensive issues. What sparked the "Golden Bruno period" , to use that phrase, was that our offensive game suddenly clicked. Not through a change of style, but because Bruno delivered exactly what we were missing to make the style of play we already had work. But then came the disastrous start to the 20/21 season, which clearly triggered a defensive rebalancing, with the McFred midfield becoming our mainstay.
That worked very well for a while in terms of results, but I think it also increasingly started to show up the limitations of the team, and arrested the upwards trend in our offensive game. Blowaway wins became rarer, and we visibly were not dominating games, including against weaker opponents.
I think the trajectory that put us on played itself out late last season, and early this season. Results, though still pretty good, declined and we were looking more and more vulnerable on the pitch. The solution this time however was - nothing. No major adjustement was made. We just carried on.
That is, until Ronaldo arrived. It seems apparent that we then attempted to go back to a more offensive approach. Which I suppose was logical considering the additions to the squad, but which obviously backfired spectacularly. We just did not have the structure and stability in place to cope with the defensive fallout, or for that matter to implement a functioning offensive game. It all came apart.
Then with Carrick, we once more move back in a more defensive direction. Keep it tight, take it from there. Which we were able to, but we were still not really working very well offensively.
And now with Rangnick, the primary emphasis remains explicitly on the defensive side of things.
If you look at all of that together, it seems clear to me that
1. We're not currently the finished article either defensively or offensively
2. Our recent history shows that we can't sustain a successful attacking style without having a stronger structural and defensive foundation.
3. Building that foundation is going to be points A, B and C on the list of priorities.
4. Only then are we going to see the development of a more consistently dynamic offensive game. And that game is going to have to grow out of the conditions created by our defensive game and our pressing. Until then, we're going to get by on setpieces and moments of individual brilliance, save for the occasional golden evening where everything clicks.
Thanks, most useful. Would note though that you wouldn't normally expect a striker to provide much in terms of progressive passing? Or in interceptions and tackles, for that matter.
Some further comments:
Ronaldo and Rashford dominate key offensive categories:
Ronaldo's npxG was 0.8. The whole team's was 1.2. Which means that he represented most of our scoring threat. The only other player above 0.1 was Rashford (0.2).
Rashford's xA was 0.6, out of a total team xA of 1.0. Which means he was by far our best player in setting up scoring chances, contributing more than the rest of the team put together.
Rashford also had 4 dribbles, all successful, no one else had more than 2 successful.
I think these stats alone underlines that there's an excessively negative view of the performance of those two players yesterday. What was created of scoring chances was largely created by them.
Then there's pass completion. Fred and McTominay leads the way there, with 91.0 and 90.2 respectively. Not only are those great figures, they are also better than their normal level (in McT's case, much much better). A clear sign they're beneficiaries of how we are playing now. Percentages are not that good for our attackers, with Bruno an extreme negative outlier and Sancho a positive outlier: (Sancho 85.0, Rashford 75.0, Ronaldo 72.2, Bruno 61.7).
Doing worse on long balls: Attempted and completed long passes are also interesting to look at, given that we apparently are no longer attempting to play out from the back. Although interestingly, we did not really hit a larger number of long passes than we have on average this season (85 to 87)
6 players played at least 10 long passes: De Gea, our two CBs, our two CMs and Bruno. Interestingly all of them did significantly worse than their average completion rate for long passes this season (PL only). McTominay was best at 81.8%, followed by Fred at 72.7%. Over the season as a whole, they have respectively 85.3 and 77.0. All the others are at 60-something figures, except for Bruno, who managed an incredible 15.4% - two passes completed out of 13 attempted, which was second only to Maguire in number of attempts. His rate for the season is 52.4. In all, we completed 51 long passes for a 60% completion rate. Compared to PL season as a whole, where it's been on average 57 completed passes and a 65.4% completion rate.
Misc offensive: We actually had a very high number of passes into the box: 13, compared to 8.8 on average this year. We also had much more progressive passing (47, compared to 34.9 average this year). We made much more passes under pressure (99 vs avg 78.3).
Pressing: Pressures are significantly up (150 vs 127.7 avg), and are now similar to the avg number of pressures our opponents have been subjecting us to (150.1). Let's compare each players pressures to his avg/90 so far this season to see who's doing more and who's doing less:
Telles: 11/11.9
Maguire: 7/3.6
Lindelof: 6/4.7
Dalot: 8/9.8
Fred: 33/26.8
McTominay: 16/16.1
Fernandes: 21/18.1
Sancho: 13/16.2
Rashford: 18/14.2
Ronaldo: 10/6.14
None of our attackers have very notably low pressing figures. The ones who seem to have pressed markedly less were our FBs, actually. While both of our CBs pressed more. Maybe there was a tactical adjustment here. And it is still the case that pressing in the attacking third has risen much more than the pressing in the other two thirds. Comparing pressures for the whole team in each third:
(Area of pitch (pressures/pressures pr 90 21-22 PL season))
Defensive (45/40.8)
Mid (60/57.9)
Offensive (45/28.9)
Yes, as I pointed out, the problem is obviously that they're currently not doing quick transition football very well. So your point is that it is possible to do it well, and that you'd like them to do it well? That makes two of us. But that's not going to happen this week or next, I think. And in the mean time, this is what we'll look like. Because it takes time to get this right.
I think that's hugely exaggerated. Bruno had a truly horrible game and was a solid 4, but the others are all 6s and 7s for me. We produced little, but I think that's more about our struggles to implement a new approach coherently than about individual performances. That means good individual involvements often comes to nothing, which leaves a bad impression. But those are still good individual involvements.
Rashford is the classic example: He was a constant threat through the second half with his runs in behind the Norwich line, see stats above. But when it comes to nothing and the ball gets lost, he looks bad. But without him, there's not many chances that can be thrown away, is there. And it's not just on him that the opportunities get wasted, it's also about a lack of options because we're not really there yet as a unit in the offensive side of the game. I rated him 7 and couldn't believe my eyes when I opened the results and saw the average rating. Totally off in my view.
Irrelevant at this point, but anybody figure out how there was only 1 added minute at the end of the first half yesterday? Hanley was down injured for at least a couple of minutes, then the game was stopped again when he was substituted. Didn't understand that one.
Great posts above, especially the ones that post hard numbers. I still rely on what I see.
De Gea was immense, and although the back line was a bit shaky (hope Lindelof is ok) overall they were solid enough. Fred and McTominay are who they are and played as well as can be expected.
The problem lay up front. Ronaldo and Sancho were good, not great, but put in a decent shift. The wheels fell off for Rashford and Bruno, who put in horrific performances. Near the end Rashford did get in but his ball was behind Ronaldo, who still almost made something of it.
Rashford and Bruno have not gotten off the blocks this season. There’s no use in us speculating as to why, but it‘s not unreasonable to suggest dropping them for Brentford in favor of Greenwood and Donny. I’d like to see Ronaldo tested for Brentford in favor of Elanga but I doubt that will happen. Shaw will come back, so three changes will be enough.
But yesterday was all about the collapse of the play of Rashford and Bruno, everyone else getting the job done, De Gea being outstanding and the referee giving us a decision that often gets made with a no-call.
Norwich were the brave side yesterday, but fortune did not go their way.
De Gea was immense, and although the back line was a bit shaky (hope Lindelof is ok) overall they were solid enough. Fred and McTominay are who they are and played as well as can be expected.
The problem lay up front. Ronaldo and Sancho were good, not great, but put in a decent shift. The wheels fell off for Rashford and Bruno, who put in horrific performances. Near the end Rashford did get in but his ball was behind Ronaldo, who still almost made something of it.
Rashford and Bruno have not gotten off the blocks this season. There’s no use in us speculating as to why, but it‘s not unreasonable to suggest dropping them for Brentford in favor of Greenwood and Donny. I’d like to see Ronaldo tested for Brentford in favor of Elanga but I doubt that will happen. Shaw will come back, so three changes will be enough.
But yesterday was all about the collapse of the play of Rashford and Bruno, everyone else getting the job done, De Gea being outstanding and the referee giving us a decision that often gets made with a no-call.
Norwich were the brave side yesterday, but fortune did not go their way.
There's a case I suppose for giving Greenwood a go, although as said I think Rashford was considerably better than he's given credit for.
Bruno's performance was horrendous. He seems to struggle with the new system. But we're not knee-deep in options. Lingard would have been logical, but he seems to have checked out mentally. It would have been Pogba of course, if he was available. Not a big believer in VdBeek from what we've seen of him in a more forward role, but I suppose that what we're left with.
Not to be pathologically worried here, but when de Gea was asked about Ronaldo in the post-match interview, did anyone else think he came across as very reluctant to give any praise?
Got a link?
Greenwood doesn’t have Rashford’s pace but in all other aspects of forward play Greenwood has surpassed Rashford.
As for Donny, peak Bruno blows peak Donny out of the water but Bruno is in dire form this season. Whatever it is, a bit of rest might be what he needs. Donny could shit his pants if given a run of two matches in Bruno’s place but if we can’t play him when Bruno is in dire form we really need to send him off in January.
You have Rashford a 7 for yesterday
. I’d stop looking at stats and try watching the game! He was absolutely shocking, like one of the worst performances I can remember from an attacking player. Forget the stats the amount of times he either missed a pass, mis controlled, passed just behind or in front of a teammate (causing them to lose it) was monumental. The only positive thing he did all game was that take on and pass to Ronaldo (still think that cross could have been better too!). That chance alone is contributing to his entire ExA rating but definitely isnt accounting for all the possession that broke down with him. I think when the whole world is critical of a performance it’s probably fair to say you’ve missed something.I think McTominay had one of the best games he's had in ages, no idea if the stats back that up.
Agreed. I think he’s been good the last two and I’ve been massively critical of him prior to that. Both him and Fred do seem to suit this midfield role a little better but it’s still early days and we still need a better passer in there.
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Good points.
What, do you think I looked up the stats before rating? I did that directly after the game, like everyone else. Pure eye test. Certainly I may have missed something, but I don't agree he was that bad.You have Rashford a 7 for yesterday
I suspect there's a little bit more to it than deciding to do what is expected of them properly.
He was shocking
Don't agree with the Rashford criticism. He was poor in the first half granted but also the only attacking player who looked like giving a feck in the second and put it on a plate for Ronaldo.
Defending him feels weird given I've been really harsh for a long time.
Defending him feels weird given I've been really harsh for a long time.
All the attackers were shite. Rashford did a little better towards the end on the left side but none of them could hold their heads up. Ronaldo scored the penalty but Bruno or Rashford could have taken it and it wouldn't have made their performances any less terrible and the same is true for Ronnie.
Need to see a lot more energy from them all on Tuesday (I suspect Greenwood starts though)
Need to see a lot more energy from them all on Tuesday (I suspect Greenwood starts though)
My only concern is that we can't expect De Gea to save every goal attempt if there are so many each game.
Dude has been in world class form the entire season but at some point he's probably going to have a bad game and that is where our defense needs to step up.
Can't expect to win titles if our goalkeeper has to make so many miracles.
Dude has been in world class form the entire season but at some point he's probably going to have a bad game and that is where our defense needs to step up.
Can't expect to win titles if our goalkeeper has to make so many miracles.
The forwards let us down. Plain and simple.
Plain and simple, right. Well, let's hope Ralf remembers to tell them in no uncertain terms not to let us down again on Tuesday. That ought to set things right.
Your very generous. I would give Rashford no more than a 4 and I would even drop him for next game after losing the ball almost every time he got it.
Haha!!! Brilliant. Made me chuckle.
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 318 ratings.
Score Predictions
203,7,4
- Man Utd win
- Norwich win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 32% Norwich 0:3 Man Utd
- 27% Norwich 0:2 Man Utd
- 9% Norwich 1:3 Man Utd
- 9% Norwich 0:4 Man Utd
- 8% Norwich 1:2 Man Utd
- 4% Norwich 1:4 Man Utd
- 4% Norwich 0:5 Man Utd
- 2% Norwich 1:1 Man Utd
- 1% Norwich 2:0 Man Utd
- 1% Norwich 0:1 Man Utd
- 1% Norwich 3:0 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 2:5 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 4:0 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 1:5 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 5:0 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 2:3 Man Utd
- 0% Norwich 2:4 Man Utd
Match Stats
- Norwich
- Man Utd
- Possession
- 47% 53%
- Shots
- 11 13
- Shots on Target
- 5 5
- Corners
- 8 6
- Fouls
- 6 17
Referee
Darren England
Man Utd Lineup
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replaced by Eric Bailly
-
-
-
-
replaced by Donny van de Beek
-
-
-
-
-
replaced by Mason Greenwood
