CL L Champions League Group H

Manchester United 1:3 Paris St Germain

Post-match discussion


Wed, 02 December 2020

justsomebloke

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Yeah thinking about it, that seems to be most likely scenario.
When we played a diamond in the last game I thought it was a test run for this game. It would have made sense, either playing a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond and controlling the midfield battle. We didn't need a win, and the onus was on PSG to come up with solutions, so we should have made them work harder and commit more players forward to give our forwards space to exploit. What happened is that from the beginning they controlled the midfield, and you just knew this was going to be a difficult game.

Poor tactics aside, both teams created and missed some easy chances. The result could have gone either way, but it was annoying the way our players missed easy sitters. Their attempts to wind our players up and influence the refs eventually gave them the advantage and cost us.
Normally I'm firmly a 4231 man, but I also expected 352 for this one (but not 442 diamond, which I doubt is a good fit against PSG). It may of course have something to do with available players, given that Shaw and Tuanzebe (and Bailly, at least fully?) were all unavailable. That brings it down to Mengi or Fosu-Mensah as the third man.
 

Achilles McCool

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They are in the refs ear constantly, eventually it works. They make every foul look like a leg breaker. Refs should book a few on them for play acting, that might curb it.
I’ve heard it suggested from many posters in the past and I know many of us are rugby fans as well, but I will ask again:
Why doesn’t football follow rugby and eliminate players from confronting referees? It was disgusting last night watching the PSG players surround the ref after every foul.
If a strict rule was set in stone that no player except for the captain can even approach the ref, it would take a little while for the players to accept, but very quickly players would learn to STFU and get on with the game.
Im also an NFL fan, and NFL refs make mistakes, but you rarely see the giant players even approach the ref, and usually if they do, they’ll get a personal foul then tossed from the game.
Something needs to be done.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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I must have missed the point where it’s now accepted that a midfielder who has been booked is automatically substituted at half time. Has someone run some stats on this? What proportion of midfielders booked in the first half are then substituted at the break? It must be a very high number for Ole to be naive and “spineless” to not have done so.

It’s easy with the benefit of hindsight to say that Fred should have been substituted but ultimately he got sent off for what, in my view, was a fair tackle and there wasn’t any suggestion to me that he had “lost his head” - he played very sensibly up to that point in the 2nd half.

The real point to take from this match is that Ole has got us to a point where we now look competitive against the best sides in Europe. We were probably unlucky to lose last night and we also went toe to toe with PSG away. Do people not remember Sevilla in Jose’s reign and how awful we were then?
It's not that he was booked but that he was lucky to escape a red card for the headbutt incident (whatever it was). We've seen time and time again referees making up for errors like that by ensuring they eventually send the player off and have countless examples of managers who quickly substitute players when they've been so fortunate because they know what's coming.
 

DomesticTadpole

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I’ve heard it suggested from many posters in the past and I know many of us are rugby fans as well, but I will ask again:
Why doesn’t football follow rugby and eliminate players from confronting referees? It was disgusting last night watching the PSG players surround the ref after every foul.
If a strict rule was set in stone that no player except for the captain can even approach the ref, it would take a little while for the players to accept, but very quickly players would learn to STFU and get on with the game.
Im also an NFL fan, and NFL refs make mistakes, but you rarely see the giant players even approach the ref, and usually if they do, they’ll get a personal foul then tossed from the game.
Something needs to be done.
They supposedly did in the PL. I think emotions can get in the way with some incidents, but with PSG it was calculated harassment.
 

MikeeMike

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How many chances did we make after the red card?
If it didn’t contribute to us losing the game, why not just take Fred off and play with 10.
He blundered again giving direct pass under no pressure which DdG saved brilliantly.
Was diving in to every tackle and could have had 2 Red cards before headbut.

Seriously, I know he has technique but watch first 20 minutes and tell me what he is doing?
Surely Ole sees this
 

justsomebloke

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It's very English, this infatuation with individual actions and decisions in football games. Everyone gets to feel righteous, and to regard some culprit as criminally negligent, stupid or incompetent from a position of unassailable certainty, all brought together in a single moment that can't be gainsaid because what happened happened. And so a wonderful game of football is reduced to a single moment, and for once, there is someone to blame. Like with Beckham's sending off against Argentina. It's maybe amusing to watch from a distance, but it's not a good thing.
 

USREDEVIL

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We were Southhampton'd. I think we played pretty well and better than they did on balance, but when you miss your chances, you end up with a bad result, especially against teams with quality players like Mbappe and Neymar. I don't think the Fred decision was terrible but I also felt he should have been hooked as it was only a matter of time.
 

MemphisDepay

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It's very English, this infatuation with individual actions and decisions in football games. Everyone gets to feel righteous, and to regard some culprit as criminally negligent, stupid or incompetent from a position of unassailable certainty, all brought together in a single moment that can't be gainsaid because what happened happened. And so a wonderful game of football is reduced to a single moment, and for once, there is someone to blame. Like with Beckham's sending off against Argentina. It's maybe amusing to watch from a distance, but it's not a good thing.
Don’t ever call me fecking English again
 
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In hindsight Ole should have taken Fred off. Even if it meant a tactical reshuffle, the nature of the first yellow meant he was on very thin ice

I would also question wft was going through Fred's mind making a wreckless challenge like that while on a yellow. Fred has to take responsibility too, he's an experienced Champions League player and has to know better.
 

gerdm07

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I already criticized DeGea for coming out with his feet instead of diving with his hands for the second goal. All good keepers have to be willing to dive at the feet at times and DeGea flinched.

Now I'm wondering if DeGea should have aggressively come out for the first goal? He could have smothered Neymar's attempt. The negative is he would have left his goal open. Any current or former GKs out there with opinions?
 

Doracle

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It's not that he was booked but that he was lucky to escape a red card for the headbutt incident (whatever it was). We've seen time and time again referees making up for errors like that by ensuring they eventually send the player off and have countless examples of managers who quickly substitute players when they've been so fortunate because they know what's coming.
We‘ve seen occasions where referees have missed incidents and (possibly) sought to even it up after seeing it at halftime. That doesn’t apply here as the referee had reviewed the incident on video and decided it was yellow card appropriate. I also doubt anyway that many managers sub players just in case the ref might do so. They usually sub players who are booked because they look to have lost their heads.

Sure, some managers might have subbed Fred as we had Matic to come on but Ole probably spoke to Fred at halftime and trusted him not to take undue risks. i suspect it’s probably the same approach SAF would have taken and many others.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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We‘ve seen occasions where referees have missed incidents and (possibly) sought to even it up after seeing it at halftime. That doesn’t apply here as the referee had reviewed the incident on video and decided it was yellow card appropriate. I also doubt anyway that many managers sub players just in case the ref might do so. They usually sub players who are booked because they look to have lost their heads.

Sure, some managers might have subbed Fred as we had Matic to come on but Ole probably spoke to Fred at halftime and trusted him not to take undue risks. i suspect it’s probably the same approach SAF would have taken and many others.
My perspective is that the referee realized he'd botched the original call and sought to make up for it, as they do. Fred had been quite reckless already in the first half and taking him off would have been excusable, even if we lost.
 

McGrathsipan

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In hindsight Ole should have taken Fred off. Even if it meant a tactical reshuffle, the nature of the first yellow meant he was on very thin ice

I would also question wft was going through Fred's mind making a wreckless challenge like that while on a yellow. Fred has to take responsibility too, he's an experienced Champions League player and has to know better.
You also have to consider the ref might have seen the Head butt incident and thought he let Fred away with a red.
He should have been replaced at half time
 

cptkeane1993

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Full credit to Ole for setting us up to go toe-to-toe with the best in the Champions League such as PSG and Leipzig - most pundits gave us no chance to qualify from this group, and probably with good reason. This is a far cry from the dark days of Mourinho when we lost to Sevilla and he talked about Man Utd not being all that after the game. And personally I now look forward to the games, to how how we play and even dare to believe that we can go all the way, only because you can see that the team and Ole truly believe they can take on anyone on their day.

However, in my opinion he did make 2 mistakes yesterday that he must learn from and not repeat.
  1. Too gung-ho - Playing with a very attacking line-up, whilst laudable, wasn't what we needed to qualify from the group which is the most important objective. To top the group is a bonus if we achieved the former but that's all. He went with 3 strikers - 2 of whom are not on form and haven't been scoring from open play (Rashford and Martial). He knew he was setting it up to be an open game with PSG needing to win too. That means several chances for both teams, having to outscore the opponent and win, and which means our strikers must convert the chances we create. Except, our strikers weren't on form and it transpired that we could carry only 1 of them (Rashford) in the team but not both and Martial's misses are really not a surprise given his recent form for club and country. This was not the game for Martial to hopefully score and start building confidence - that would be more Southampton and West Ham, not because they're weak teams but because there's some way to go in the Premier League yet. With the Champions League Group stages coming to an end in a week, this is the 'business end' where results matter most. Tuchel knows it with all his experience and hence he didn't go all gung-ho and start Di Maria alongside Neymar / Mbappe and also made in-game tweaks to manage the game and scrape out a win (twice in a row to turn the group around). Tuanzebe and Shaw being out makes 3-5-2 difficult but no reason why we could not have gone for a diamond with Matic deep near the centre-backs and the rest dominating the midfield against Veratti / Danilo / Parades. We had VdB / Pogba fit and ready.
  2. Fred red - It was coming and everyone knew it but he took a very high risk by keeping him on which unsurprisingly did not pay off because (A) we were a man short for 20 minutes whilst being a goal down and (B) we won't have him for Leipzig (Fred was key to counter-pressing Leipzig's high-pressing game in the recent win). The ref is only human and would've known at half-time he's made a mistake not sending Fred off and whilst he won't have looked to consciously make up for the error, we know he would because that's human psychology and we've seen it ever so often. It was therefore naive to leave him on and hope for the best, which I'm sure Ole knows too now.
Both of these points are not made with the benefit of hindsight, rather they could've been proactively addressed before / during the game respectively.

Ole must learn from this and not repeat it, and we'd be better for it. I know folks would say this job is not a work experience but I would argue that the unique requirements of this job and the associated pressures and demands - unparalleled in world football - means this job is a learning experience for any manager regardless of their CV and LvG / Mourinho are examples of that.
 

Fitchett

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So, supposing both PSG and MUFC win our last games, we would both be at 12 points but PSG will top the group. Weren’t Ole an his coaching staff aware of the huge difference between losing 2-1 and losing 3-1 for our overall CL progression? That was terrible game management from Ole, going gung-ho at the death and leaving our slow defenders exposed.
Or if we both lose our last games, we are out due to an inferior head to head against PSG.
 

Pogue Mahone

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So, supposing both PSG and MUFC win our last games, we would both be at 12 points but PSG will top the group. Weren’t Ole an his coaching staff aware of the huge difference between losing 2-1 and losing 3-1 for our overall CL progression? That was terrible game management from Ole, going gung-ho at the death and leaving our slow defenders exposed.
You do realise they were going for a 2-2 scoreline? Which is infinitely better for our “overall CL progression” than either of the scorelines you mention above?

Honestly, I get the doubts about Ole. I have them myself. But the fecking lengths people will go to in an attempt to find new ways to criticise him is absolutely fecking mental.
 

cyril C

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Normally I'm firmly a 4231 man, but I also expected 352 for this one (but not 442 diamond, which I doubt is a good fit against PSG). It may of course have something to do with available players, given that Shaw and Tuanzebe (and Bailly, at least fully?) were all unavailable. That brings it down to Mengi or Fosu-Mensah as the third man.
OK may be unavailable of Tuanzebe & Shaw was the main reason of not deploying 352, but clearly you need the extra man in MF to control the game. Martial was unfit a few days ago so why did he started? We didn't need to attack, an extra man in MF would have helped Fred. Call it Diamond or not, I would have played VDB on the right, further back, just to suffocate them. His blind faith on Martial clearly backfire, and why Fred wasn't sub during half time.
 

HarryRedCrumbs

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I was really enjoying that game. It was fast and competitive and we were doing well. I'm glad that Fred didn't get sent off for the first offence because Paredes was as bad coming in to him. And, I get why OGS didn't sub him, because we were playing well....

He should have subbed him though. The ice was too thin.

Otherwise, well played lads. I'm seeing improvements and that's what counts.
 

Caesar2290

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The events leading to the loss yesterday still grinds me a lot. Puts me off even reading about it.
We were the best team. Unlucky to loose.
Exactly this. Has a similar feel to our 2013 loss to Real Madrid and that 2010 loss to Bayern. In both the scenarios we had them on the ropes, but the fecking red cards changed everything.

Feels like I got kicked in the balls really. I would have understood if PSG played us off the park. But having 2 deflection based goals and another scored on the counter when our whole team was attacking. Not very impressed with PSG. On a different day we would have smashed them 3-1
 

Greck

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Exactly this. Has a similar feel to our 2013 loss to Real Madrid and that 2010 loss to Bayern. In both the scenarios we had them on the ropes, but the fecking red cards changed everything.

Feels like I got kicked in the balls really. I would have understood if PSG played us off the park. But having 2 deflection based goals and another scored on the counter when our whole team was attacking. Not very impressed with PSG. On a different day we would have smashed them 3-1
Indeed PSG still play the same. Get the ball to Neymar or Mbappe at the edge of the area and let them create. No complex attacks. It all seems geared towards getting Neymar/Mbappe the goal or assist
 

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Full credit to Ole for setting us up to go toe-to-toe with the best in the Champions League such as PSG and Leipzig - most pundits gave us no chance to qualify from this group, and probably with good reason. This is a far cry from the dark days of Mourinho when we lost to Sevilla and he talked about Man Utd not being all that after the game. And personally I now look forward to the games, to how how we play and even dare to believe that we can go all the way, only because you can see that the team and Ole truly believe they can take on anyone on their day.

However, in my opinion he did make 2 mistakes yesterday that he must learn from and not repeat.
  1. Too gung-ho - Playing with a very attacking line-up, whilst laudable, wasn't what we needed to qualify from the group which is the most important objective. To top the group is a bonus if we achieved the former but that's all. He went with 3 strikers - 2 of whom are not on form and haven't been scoring from open play (Rashford and Martial). He knew he was setting it up to be an open game with PSG needing to win too. That means several chances for both teams, having to outscore the opponent and win, and which means our strikers must convert the chances we create. Except, our strikers weren't on form and it transpired that we could carry only 1 of them (Rashford) in the team but not both and Martial's misses are really not a surprise given his recent form for club and country. This was not the game for Martial to hopefully score and start building confidence - that would be more Southampton and West Ham, not because they're weak teams but because there's some way to go in the Premier League yet. With the Champions League Group stages coming to an end in a week, this is the 'business end' where results matter most. Tuchel knows it with all his experience and hence he didn't go all gung-ho and start Di Maria alongside Neymar / Mbappe and also made in-game tweaks to manage the game and scrape out a win (twice in a row to turn the group around). Tuanzebe and Shaw being out makes 3-5-2 difficult but no reason why we could not have gone for a diamond with Matic deep near the centre-backs and the rest dominating the midfield against Veratti / Danilo / Parades. We had VdB / Pogba fit and ready.
  2. Fred red - It was coming and everyone knew it but he took a very high risk by keeping him on which unsurprisingly did not pay off because (A) we were a man short for 20 minutes whilst being a goal down and (B) we won't have him for Leipzig (Fred was key to counter-pressing Leipzig's high-pressing game in the recent win). The ref is only human and would've known at half-time he's made a mistake not sending Fred off and whilst he won't have looked to consciously make up for the error, we know he would because that's human psychology and we've seen it ever so often. It was therefore naive to leave him on and hope for the best, which I'm sure Ole knows too now.
Both of these points are not made with the benefit of hindsight, rather they could've been proactively addressed before / during the game respectively.

Ole must learn from this and not repeat it, and we'd be better for it. I know folks would say this job is not a work experience but I would argue that the unique requirements of this job and the associated pressures and demands - unparalleled in world football - means this job is a learning experience for any manager regardless of their CV and LvG / Mourinho are examples of that.
Well argued post. Ole is still learning (I hope he never stops) and I see real progress. When I think back to December 2018. there's a completely different feel to this team and whilst it is still inconsistent, it is becoming resilient and able to recover from losing a goal or two (e.g. Soton).

PSG are a quality outfit and let's not foget that they only returned the compliment this week, we did them in Paris, without having to rely on a VAR penalty.
 

Oly Francis

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They supposedly did in the PL. I think emotions can get in the way with some incidents, but with PSG it was calculated harassment.
It wasn't calculated harrasment, it's pretty common in France, Spain, Italy, even worst in south america etc.. I don't like it and I think that players should be booked when they do that. I find it very annoying, and I'm a PSG fan. But you can't just expect players to stop when you allow them to do it.
 

manunited1919

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You do realise they were going for a 2-2 scoreline? Which is infinitely better for our “overall CL progression” than either of the scorelines you mention above?

Honestly, I get the doubts about Ole. I have them myself. But the fecking lengths people will go to in an attempt to find new ways to criticise him is absolutely fecking mental.
Yes I agreed with going for the 2-2 scoreline, but the Ighalo for Wan Bissaka substitution opened our back door way open.
As manager, I doubt he was aware of the difference between losing 2-1 and losing 3-1. And any experienced manager would be aware of that head to head vs PSG in a tight group. Neymar (hated as he deserves to be) seemed to be 100% aware.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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I know folks would say this job is not a work experience but I would argue that the unique requirements of this job and the associated pressures and demands - unparalleled in world football - means this job is a learning experience for any manager regardless of their CV and LvG / Mourinho are examples of that.
Anyone who says the job is not work experience must've missed seeing Fergie in Europe in the mid 90s.
 

yumtum

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Did anyone else notice in the second half when we were running towards our box as PSG were on the break - the ref gestures towards Fred that one more and he's gone?
 

lex talionis

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Most of see progress and certainly a vast improvement over the garbage Mourinho gave us, but what I think most of who support Ole but have our doubts about are trying to say is that we seem to have hit a ceiling on where Ole can take the squad. I'm not sure that's the case, but it certainly looks that way. We take steps forward, then steps backward.

The manner in which we have dropped points this season in both the PL and the CL is very concerning. A lot of that is down to the players (Martial this week, our defenders v Spurs, etc.) but we're seeing too many individual errors from our players, the kinds of individual errors that we rarely saw under Ferguson even during the lean years. We got sucker punched by an experienced, and shitbaggy, side and hopefully the players will take that experience and turn into steely resolve to win matches we should win.
 

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Deserved loss. Nobody at United comes out of this looking good. Our attackers bottled their chances to take the game away from PSG. Fred gave the ref the chance to send him off, even after getting a lifeline in the first half. Ole, despite having five changes, didn't react fast enough to our difficulties or PSG switching to 3-5-2. Nobody at United can take any credit out of this match.
I recently was happy with Bruno telles VDK signings and proved wrong on cavani he has still got it. I am not one for looking anyone get the sack. However Ole failure to not sub Fred, not sub an Injured Rashford and not combat PSg change of formation has not weigh me on the side of time is up. There is not one person who didn't see Fred needed taking off bar him and his staff. The fact that fred was yellow carded should have been the boost that won us the match. So i am picking a side and sticking to it. OLE goes.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Did anyone else notice in the second half when we were running towards our box as PSG were on the break - the ref gestures towards Fred that one more and he's gone?
Yep saw that! He did have a coupe of let offs. He gave him a decision to make and he made the wrong one. It’s obvious he was trying to make up for earlier one
 

Monkey bus

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Yes I agreed with going for the 2-2 scoreline, but the Ighalo for Wan Bissaka substitution opened our back door way open.
As manager, I doubt he was aware of the difference between losing 2-1 and losing 3-1. And any experienced manager would be aware of that head to head vs PSG in a tight group. Neymar (hated as he deserves to be) seemed to be 100% aware.
He will have been fully aware of the head to head but abandoned that to try and get something out of the game and qualify on the night. Did absolutely the right thing.

Can you imagine the reaction if he shut up shop at 2-1 and said to the media that he decided to accept a 2-1 loss as didn’t want to upset the head to head standings?

I think he’d have been out of a job by Thursday.
 

Greck

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Both of these points are not made with the benefit of hindsight, rather they could've been proactively addressed before / during the game respectively.

Ole must learn from this and not repeat it, and we'd be better for it. I know folks would say this job is not a work experience but I would argue that the unique requirements of this job and the associated pressures and demands - unparalleled in world football - means this job is a learning experience for any manager regardless of their CV and LvG / Mourinho are examples of that.
I'll be sure to use this one when applying for a role with greater experience than I'm capable. Fingers crossed Lads
 

yumtum

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Yep saw that! He did have a coupe of let offs. He gave him a decision to make and he made the wrong one. It’s obvious he was trying to make up for earlier one
Exactly, I think at that point, Fred should have known going to ground for a 50/50 would result in him being off, even if he did get the ball.

Also, I know players want to stay on the pitch but when he was verbally told one more time, he should have told his captain who in turn could have signalled the bench.

But these things happen, just hope lessons were learnt.
 

Greck

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Exactly, I think at that point, Fred should have known going to ground for a 50/50 would result in him being off, even if he did get the ball.

Also, I know players want to stay on the pitch but when he was verbally told one more time, he should have told his captain who in turn could have signalled the bench.

But these things happen, just hope lessons were learnt.
That's how you know the player can't help himself. Once he got that yellow it's like his internal monologue told him to lunge into every tackle and get sent off
 

justsomebloke

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Hehe, wonderful. And much overdue, especially following Barney Ronay's arrogant twaddle the day after the match.

Also a very good interview with Ole on Sky Sports: Ole Gunnar Solskjaer exclusive interview: Finding consistency and evolving Manchester United | Football News | Sky Sports

Interesting piece of information there: Man Utd has the second best record in the PL since the end of the January transfer window.
 
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jem

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Yes I agreed with going for the 2-2 scoreline, but the Ighalo for Wan Bissaka substitution opened our back door way open.
As manager, I doubt he was aware of the difference between losing 2-1 and losing 3-1. And any experienced manager would be aware of that head to head vs PSG in a tight group. Neymar (hated as he deserves to be) seemed to be 100% aware.
So why do you think Neymar was aware but doubt that Ole was?
 

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Score Predictions

93,43,79
  • Man Utd win
  • PSG win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 27% Man Utd 1:1 PSG
  • 21% Man Utd 2:1 PSG
  • 9% Man Utd 1:2 PSG
  • 9% Man Utd 2:2 PSG
  • 7% Man Utd 0:2 PSG
  • 6% Man Utd 1:0 PSG
  • 6% Man Utd 2:0 PSG
  • 5% Man Utd 3:1 PSG
  • 2% Man Utd 3:0 PSG
  • 2% Man Utd 3:2 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:0 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 1:3 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:1 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:3 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 4:1 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 4:0 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 0:5 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 4:3 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 2:3 PSG
Compiled from 215 predictions.
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Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. PSG
Possession
44% 56%
Shots
12 13
Shots on Target
5 6
Corners
3 5
Fouls
20 10

Referee

Daniele Orsato