Potential Matic Replacements

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,122
I don't know who would be the best player for our midfield. I would like us to have a powerful scouting network and a real game plan and club development to get back to the top as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the two do not seem to be the case.

It exasperates me that we are looking for the new Scholes, Keane, Carrick, Matic, Alonso, Pirlo etc. Instead of looking for clones of these players, you have to find players who will perform well with a clear game plan. The feeling that I have is that we put individuals on the ground hoping that it works without any real game plan.

Players must be complementary and make it work.

We had so many players who were not world class but were important to the team (JS Park, Carrick, Butt, Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea, Valencia (Fergie era) etc.
Example ... Makelele at Galacticos Real. As soon as he left, the balance fell.
So we need a good manager who could help us move in this direction.

So in my opinion the most important thing is not which players will come (reputation) but how they will register in the game project and make it perform.
I agree that we should be looking for a DM that fits our system rather than looking for the next Carrick or whatever. That's what @Adnan and @BenitoSTARR are arguing about. @BenitoSTARR thinks Koopmeiners fits the current system Ole is playing while @Adnan thinks Zakaria fits the system Ole played at Molde. Some say Ndidi fits because we play with two playmakers in Bruno and Pogba similar to Maddison and Teilemans
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
@andersj gave you what you asked for the two deeper Liverpool midfielders. Who he believes are better passers.

You asked for stats to prove it which i provided on his behalf and you have since dismissed the exact proof you asked for.

You the argue that Henderson is worse, Henderson is actually a better passer than both Zakaria and Fabinho apart from % which you would expect from a more creative player. Zakaria can’t be better than Henderson without also being better than Fabinho so your line of argument does not stand up. Zakaria also does not shade any metric on average in all comps. Please also not Fabinho plays in the CL a much harder competion.

Speculation and transfer talk do not prove Zakaria is a better passer why can you not just provide the stats that have led you to believe he is a better passer than Fabinho?

So I could argue after Bayern no other team is world class so Zakaria isn’t being tested week in week out? Stop giving me opinions give some evidence stats wise.

The above proves you have made those claims.
I have not made the claim that Zakaria is a better passer than Fabinho. I have said statistics show there's no real advantage either way really with Zakaria shading it slightly. Fabinho isn't a better passer and him making more passes due to Liverpool as a team making more passes in comparison to Gladbach only proves just that, and not that he's a better passer.

Henderson is a #8 that plays it safe and by your reasoning is a better passer than both Pogba and Fernandes who both likely have a lower pass percentage in comparison. That's why the eye test is a far better measure of passing than a spreadsheet.

Fabinho playing in the champions league and Zakaria potentially playing in the champions league next season can be compared next season. And if Zakaria beats his number on the spreadsheet will it then prove me he's a better passer than Fabinho? NO. Because there's many variables to consider via the eye test before arguing over a spreadsheet.

I'd like to see you argue that there is no other world class team in Germany bar Bayern which makes it easier for Gladbach's Zakaria, would be a great laugh tbf. I'm sure @do.ob and the rest of the Buli fans would have a good laugh..
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
I agree that we should be looking for a DM that fits our system rather than looking for the next Carrick or whatever. That's what @Adnan and @BenitoSTARR are arguing about. @BenitoSTARR thinks Koopmeiners fits the current system Ole is playing while @Adnan thinks Zakaria fits the system Ole played at Molde. Some say Ndidi fits because we play with two playmakers in Bruno and Pogba similar to Maddison and Teilemans
Ndidi fits the system as well and there's many examples of it in a high press which Ole used at Molde.
 

Devil may care

Full Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
32,319
The lad that replaced De Jong looks really good mate but he was only recently deployed at the base of midfield at Ajax swapping roles with Blind. It might be seen as too early to move for him right now.
I was thinking of Lisandro Lopez, were you thinking about Schuurs?
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
I agree that we should be looking for a DM that fits our system rather than looking for the next Carrick or whatever. That's what @Adnan and @BenitoSTARR are arguing about. @BenitoSTARR thinks Koopmeiners fits the current system Ole is playing while @Adnan thinks Zakaria fits the system Ole played at Molde. Some say Ndidi fits because we play with two playmakers in Bruno and Pogba similar to Maddison and Teilemans
To be clear I’ve never actually said I wouldn’t be happy with Zakaria. He’s in my top 5 of options. I’m very open to being proved wrong about my opinion but nobody has shown me any stats or objective argument to suggest otherwise yet.

The truth is none of Zakaria, Partey, Rice, Koop or Ndidi would be terrible options they are good players but some are better suited than others to certain roles as I highlighted in other posts. It literally just comes down to personal preference.

I don’t have an agenda here I welcome proof that my observations of players are misguided or misjudged. It’s all part of the fun of debate.

I wouldn’t ever claim to know it all which is why I just speak about what I’ve researched and equally allow for others to prove me wrong. When no proof is present it’s harder to be convinced you’re wrong.

We need someone that suits the teams needs. I think a line breaking passer at DM who is positionally excellent is a must as it gets the ball to Pogba and Bruno but also gives them freedom. Zakaria a is a better dribbler between lines but not the better passer.

For me it boils down to:
Best aggressive defensive DM: Ndidi
Best CM: Partey
Best ball playing DM: Koop

I think anyone who wants an aggressive pressing DM stats suggest Ndidi is the best. And anyone who wants someone who can do the defensive work and link midfield and defence with superior passing should pick Koopmeiners.

Partey is the best CM pick and then Zakaria and Rice are both good options that aren’t better then the others at one thing. But overall are solid DMs.

So any of them we should be happy with but some excel in key areas.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,122
Ndidi fits the system as well and there's many examples of it in a high press which Ole used at Molde.
It's what he's using at United not Molde we should be looking at. He's been here for one and the half years surely we shouldn't be looking at what he played at Molde. Besides Ole is working with different assistant coaches so some things are bound to change
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
I was thinking of Lisandro Lopez, were you thinking about Schuurs?
Lisandro Martinez is the one I was thinking of aswell . Schone has departed for Genoa.

Martinez started the season as a CB and Blind in midfield but they swapped soon after. So it might be seen as too early to move for him eventhough he has been very good in the role.
 
Last edited:

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
It's what he's using at United not Molde we should be looking at. He's been here for one and the half years surely we shouldn't be looking at what he played at Molde. Besides Ole is working with different assistant coaches so some things are bound to change
Ole inherited a team that had been playing pragmatic football for several years. It will take a few transfer windows to create the team in his image.

The assistant he's working with at United that has displayed his tactical style is Kieran McKenna who also plays a high tempo high pressing game and his teams have been wonderful to watch.
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
I have not made the claim that Zakaria is a better passer than Fabinho. I have said statistics show there's no real advantage either way really with Zakaria shading it slightly. Fabinho isn't a better passer and him making more passes due to Liverpool as a team making more passes in comparison to Gladbach only proves just that, and not that he's a better passer.

Henderson is a #8 that plays it safe and by your reasoning is a better passer than both Pogba and Fernandes who both likely have a lower pass percentage in comparison. That's why the eye test is a far better measure of passing than a spreadsheet.

Fabinho playing in the champions league and Zakaria potentially playing in the champions league next season can be compared next season. And if Zakaria beats his number on the spreadsheet will it then prove me he's a better passer than Fabinho? NO. Because there's many variables to consider via the eye test before arguing over a spreadsheet.

I'd like to see you argue that there is no other world class team in Germany bar Bayern which makes it easier for Gladbach's Zakaria, would be a great laugh tbf. I'm sure @do.ob and the rest of the Buli fans would have a good laugh..
By claiming he’s better than Henderson who is a better passer than Fabinho you indirectly make that claim. Unless you think Henderson is worse?

The stats show there is an advantage to having Fabinho, he outperforms Zakaria on every metric in a more difficult league. That is more impressive then having worse stats in the Bundesliga.

If you make more passes and still keep a higher % completion then you are passing consistently better than someone with the same %. Fabinho does this in a tougher league with less time and space or do you think it’s easier for Fabinho in the PL?

I’ve never said Henderson plays safe. He attempts more line breaks than the other two, and more long balls. He’s far riskier but also a better passer even to the eye.

You don’t know what you’re talking about I said Henderson has a lower % than Zakaria and Fabinho but higher in every other metric I never once made the claim he had higher % and so is better?

You were the one who was claiming Zakaria was better because of his passing % this is laughable!

We’re not comparing futures we are comparing the reality of today. Fabinho is better than Zakaria. I have provided proof and could easily say look at him too and he’s better. I have given you an evidence based argument you have provided no evidence because no evidence exists.

You could easily argue Zakaria makes more progressive dribbles and that this makes up for his inferior passing but you won’t do that because you won’t admit you’re wrong which is amazing.

You were the one who asked for stats to prove a point. And when they are provided you move the goal posts to the “eye test” I suggest you take a trip to Barnard Castle because you clearly don’t see Fabinho for what he is. Arguably the best DM in the PL, and one of the best in world football.

Who else is world class in Germany? Dortmund maybe? Leipzig? The German league is not more challenging then the PL so let’s not shift the argument.

Show me proof, like I have, that Zakaria is a better passer.

If you can’t then move on.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,122
To be clear I’ve never actually said I wouldn’t be happy with Zakaria. He’s in my top 5 of options. I’m very open to being proved wrong about my opinion but nobody has shown me any stats or objective argument to suggest otherwise yet.

The truth is none of Zakaria, Partey, Rice, Koop or Ndidi would be terrible options they are good players but some are better suited than others to certain roles as I highlighted in other posts. It literally just comes down to personal preference.

I don’t have an agenda here I welcome proof that my observations of players are misguided or misjudged. It’s all part of the fun of debate.

I wouldn’t ever claim to know it all which is why I just speak about what I’ve researched and equally allow for others to prove me wrong. When no proof is present it’s harder to be convinced you’re wrong.

We need someone that suits the teams needs. I think a line breaking passer at DM who is positionally excellent is a must as it gets the ball to Pogba and Bruno but also gives them freedom. Zakaria a is a better dribbler between lines but not the better passer.

For me it boils down to:
Best aggressive defensive DM: Ndidi
Best CM: Partey
Best ball playing DM: Koop

I think anyone who wants an aggressive pressing DM stats suggest Ndidi is the best. And anyone who wants someone who can do the defensive work and link midfield and defence with superior passing should pick Koopmeiners.

Partey is the best CM pick and then Zakaria and Rice are both good options that aren’t better then the others at one thing. But overall are solid DMs.

So any of them we should be happy with but some excel in key areas.
This is why I think Koopmeiners or someone like him (a more proven version) is what we need. Asides from doing all that he can also help us creatively when one of Pogba or Bruno are down.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,122
Ole inherited a team that had been playing pragmatic football for several years. It will take a few transfer windows to create the team in his image.

The assistant he's working with at United that has displayed his tactical style is Kieran McKenna who also plays a high tempo high pressing game and his teams have been wonderful to watch.
You're all basing this on an assumption that Ole wants to play the same way as he Molde. We don't know that, some managers change their style but surely Ole must have implemented the style he wants after one and half years. Transfer windows are there to give him the chance to fix the cracks in it.
 
Last edited:

Devil may care

Full Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
32,319
Lisandro Martinez is the one I was thinking of aswell . Schone has departed for Genoa.

Martinez started the season as a CB and Blind in midfield but they swapped soon after. So it might be seen as too early to move for him eventhough he has been very good in the role.
Gotcha, what position did he play at his previous club?
 

Infra-red

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
8,759
Location
left wing
Gotcha, what position did he play at his previous club?
At Defensa I believe he played pretty much exclusively as a left-sided CB, so this season is his breakthrough as a midfielder. He's performing really well and has a great all-round skillset, but perhaps it is a little early to consider him for a midfield role at a club like United. One to keep an eye on, though.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
By claiming he’s better than Henderson who is a better passer than Fabinho you indirectly make that claim. Unless you think Henderson is worse?

The stats show there is an advantage to having Fabinho, he outperforms Zakaria on every metric in a more difficult league. That is more impressive then having worse stats in the Bundesliga.

If you make more passes and still keep a higher % completion then you are passing consistently better than someone with the same %. Fabinho does this in a tougher league with less time and space or do you think it’s easier for Fabinho in the PL?

I’ve never said Henderson plays safe. He attempts more line breaks than the other two, and more long balls. He’s far riskier but also a better passer even to the eye.

You don’t know what you’re talking about I said Henderson has a lower % than Zakaria and Fabinho but higher in every other metric I never once made the claim he had higher % and so is better?

You were the one who was claiming Zakaria was better because of his passing % this is laughable!

We’re not comparing futures we are comparing the reality of today. Fabinho is better than Zakaria. I have provided proof and could easily say look at him too and he’s better. I have given you an evidence based argument you have provided no evidence because no evidence exists.

You could easily argue Zakaria makes more progressive dribbles and that this makes up for his inferior passing but you won’t do that because you won’t admit you’re wrong which is amazing.

You were the one who asked for stats to prove a point. And when they are provided you move the goal posts to the “eye test” I suggest you take a trip to Barnard Castle because you clearly don’t see Fabinho for what he is. Arguably the best DM in the PL, and one of the best in world football.

Who else is world class in Germany? Dortmund maybe? Leipzig? The German league is not more challenging then the PL so let’s not shift the argument.

Show me proof, like I have, that Zakaria is a better passer.

If you can’t then move on.
First of all when someone brings Henderson into the argument who is generally deployed higher up the pitch and points to his passing being better than a player that has carried out defensive duties in several roles and has been used as a man marker. Then we have to look at pass percentage/completion and Zakaria wins. And then when that is proven incorrect, the back track takes effect and we hear 'oh but he's a better passer because he plays a more expansive passing game' and you conveniently forget or are completely oblivious to how Rose likes his team to play a short passing game in midfield which Zakaria is superb at. That's why the eye test trumps a spreadsheet.

Fabinho has more time on the ball at Liverpool than Zakaria has at Gladbach and if you believe otherwise then you're being dishonest and don't watch Gladbach. That statement i'm sorry is BS and most German posters would agree i'm sure. Let's not make stuff up if you aren't familliar with the league.

I never made the claim that Zakaria was a better passer than Fabinho but rather there was no significant advantage either way. Not sure why you keep asking for proof on a claim I never made.. :houllier:

A spreadsheet isn't evidence, you've rarely watched the player play which is more than evident in your posts.. :lol:

All these teams are as good as Spurs or even better-Leverkusen, Gladbach, Leipzig, and all 3 could more than match anything outside of City and Liverpool. The German league is a very tough league and especially tough for defensive players due to the high risk factor involved. It's easier to play DM in the current Liverpool team in the EPL than it is at Gladbach where there's several teams who are superior in the competition which is a fact.
 

Infra-red

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
8,759
Location
left wing
Great stuff. Sounds as if he would be an ideal replacement. Bonus that he can play at the back, too.
Yes, I think he could be an option (along with some of the others already mentioned in this thread). A quick search reveals that he has a €25m release clause, which was inserted into his contract when it was extended last summer. Arsenal and Inter are apparently interested...
 
Last edited:

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
You're all basing this on an assumption that Ole wants to play the same way as he Molde. We don't know that, some managers change their style but surely Ole must have implemented the style he wants after one and half years. Transfer windows are there to give him the chance to fix the cracks in it.
I don't believe he will change because he's spoke openly about admiring Klopp's style. He has spoken about wanting to play a high line and wants his fullbacks to push forward but we don't have the players to play that style yet.
 

andersj

Nick Powell Expert
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
2,308
Location
Copenhagen
First of all when someone brings Henderson into the argument who is generally deployed higher up the pitch and points to his passing being better than a player that has carried out defensive duties in several roles and has been used as a man marker.
Inaccurate. You asked who played there. I gave you the answer. It would not be correct to not include Henderson as he played there a significant amount of minutes during Fabinhos injury. You then started talking about his very irrelevant completion accuracy.
 

andersj

Nick Powell Expert
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
2,308
Location
Copenhagen
I don't believe he will change because he's spoke openly about admiring Klopp's style. He has spoken about wanting to play a high line and wants his fullbacks to push forward but we don't have the players to play that style yet.
And still Hestad and Aursnes is the two players he has used the most in midfield. Two players far from anything like Zakaria. Hestad in particular would be more comparable to Carrick.

And Klopp himself has rarely to never played with players like Zakaria as the deepest midfielders. Instead he has used players like Fabinho, Henderson, Sahin and Kehl there. Players who are significantly better at passing the ball than Zakaria.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Yes, I think he could be an option (along with some of the others already mentioned in this thread). A quick search reveals that he has a €25m release clause, which was inserted into his contract when it was extended last summer. Arsenal and Inter are apparently interested...
Would fit in nicely I agree..
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Inaccurate. You asked who played there. I gave you the answer. It would not be correct to not include Henderson as he played there a significant amount of minutes during Fabinhos injury. You then started talking about his very irrelevant completion accuracy.
I never asked you anything, you responded to me..

And using Henderson was irrelevant when he was a filler and not the actual DM. You could've actually actually used the benchmark rather than the pretender for the role.
 

Devil may care

Full Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
32,319
At Defensa I believe he played pretty much exclusively as a left-sided CB, so this season is his breakthrough as a midfielder. He's performing really well and has a great all-round skillset, but perhaps it is a little early to consider him for a midfield role at a club like United. One to keep an eye on, though.
CB exclusively but converted to DM earlier this season at Ajax.
Cheers guys, like with Zakaria I don't think we can wait another season to get this position sorted or at least have a competitive option there.
 

andersj

Nick Powell Expert
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
2,308
Location
Copenhagen
That was after you engaged me in conversation. But let's leave that because it's not gonna get us anywhere.

So Henderson in 10 games as a deep midfielder is a better passer than Zakaria who is instructed to play quick short passes.??
Ah, so he is instructed to? Was he instructed to by Dieter Hecking aswell? And maybe Samassekou did not play according to Roses instruction then, since he was more progressive than Zakaria under Rose. In general Samassekou is very average and poor compared to Zakaria, but he played with more risk than Zakaria for Salzburg in the EL.
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
This is why I think Koopmeiners or someone like him (a more proven version) is what we need. Asides from doing all that he can also help us creatively when one of Pogba or Bruno are down.
And it’s also the reason I believe someone of that skill set will have more joy in our side.

I just think a consistent passing line breaker will find Bruno and Pogba more than a dribbling line breaker and so against the smaller sides which we play 90% of the time there will be a bigger benefit.

Against the bigger teams as long as that player is mobile enough to position well and delay an attacking side they’ll do well too or you just play a defensive double pivot which Koop could easily do.

A more proven version of Koop would be lovely but I don’t see any such player available on the market.
You're all basing this on an assumption that Ole wants to play the same way as he Molde. We don't know that, some managers change their style but surely Ole must have implemented the style he wants after one and half years. Transfer windows are there to give him the chance to fix the cracks in it.
It’s a very big assumption especially when Ole himself has said and suggested we are a counter attacking side these are all his quotes:

When asked about him preferring a counter attacking style of play

“That's always been the way I like to play football. Get the ball up in the opposition's half as soon as you can, as quickly as you can. If you score, fantastic. If not then you've got to have patient build-up play. But attack quickly.”

"I am always going to be demanding that when we’ve got the ball, we will try to make the most of it. Pass forward, run forward, and be that type of football team,"

"But I always believe in forward passes, penetrative passes, wide play, getting crosses in the box. Pass and move, pass and run, play and run forward. Every player I’ve had if you ask them will tell you the same, that it’s about passing forward, running forward.'

It's so easy to see he wants fast progressive passers on the counter.

We do press more than we did under Mourinho but our average ball recovery is 59.38m away from the opponents goal under Ole compared to 62.24m. So we average a 2.86m higher ball recovery (Old Trafford is 105m long so basically we're pressing 2.72% higher up the pitch). Now I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure most professional athletes can cover that extra 2.86m difference.

First of all when someone brings Henderson into the argument who is generally deployed higher up the pitch and points to his passing being better than a player that has carried out defensive duties in several roles and has been used as a man marker. Then we have to look at pass percentage/completion and Zakaria wins. And then when that is proven incorrect, the back track takes effect and we hear 'oh but he's a better passer because he plays a more expansive passing game' and you conveniently forget or are completely oblivious to how Rose likes his team to play a short passing game in midfield which Zakaria is superb at. That's why the eye test trumps a spreadsheet.

Fabinho has more time on the ball at Liverpool than Zakaria has at Gladbach and if you believe otherwise then you're being dishonest and don't watch Gladbach. That statement i'm sorry is BS and most German posters would agree i'm sure. Let's not make stuff up if you aren't familliar with the league.

I never made the claim that Zakaria was a better passer than Fabinho but rather there was no significant advantage either way. Not sure why you keep asking for proof on a claim I never made.. :houllier:

A spreadsheet isn't evidence, you've rarely watched the player play which is more than evident in your posts.. :lol:

All these teams are as good as Spurs or even better-Leverkusen, Gladbach, Leipzig, and all 3 could more than match anything outside of City and Liverpool. The German league is a very tough league and especially tough for defensive players due to the high risk factor involved. It's easier to play DM in the current Liverpool team in the EPL than it is at Gladbach where there's several teams who are superior in the competition which is a fact.
So lets assume we throw stats out the window. I believe based on the eye test Fabinho is a better passer. Prove me wrong. You can't.

You're argument so far has been to ask for stats, then when they disprove your point to remove them from the equation. You basically don't like that you are wrong on one point and can't admit it. It's funny.

Fabinho does not have more time on the ball in the PL than Zakaria, if this is your eye test go to specsavers. If you truly believe this. Prove it. Show me the average time Zakaria has on the ball compared to Fabinho. If you believe otherwise then you're being dishonest and don't watch Liverpool. Your statements are also BS as you have not evidence or backed up a single one of them. All of my points have been evidence based.

I am not using a spreadsheet I am using a recognised database for these stats. You're not criticising my analysis here you are criticising stats from globally recognised sources. By doing so you remove any ability to say Zakaria can be compared with anyone and that essentially your word is gospel. Jesus that's a bad position to be trying to defend.

I have watched Zakaria (12) , Partey (7), Rice (14), Ndidi (16) and Koopmeiners (19) matches this season he is one of 5 options I have done my homework on. I do not claim to have performed the full eye test on any other players for DM. I think that along with stats, is a good enough match basis to get a feel for Borussia Mon and their playstyle along with Zakaria and his playstyle and I stand by the fact he is a progressive dribbler more than he is a line breaking passer. It's his tendancy. If there is any player of those I mentioned you want to claim I haven't seen Partey is the one to pick which is also why you see me contribute less to discussions about him.

The German league affords attacking players more time and space than the PL does as a result not of just attacking play but of inferior defensive play too. It is harder to be an excellent defender in the PL than Bundesliga because the standard is higher in the PL.

It's far harder to be a good enough DM to play for Liverpool in the first place. Fabinho literally has to be world class to win the Champions League and PL and perform at his top level week in week out. The demands are so much higher in terms of pace in the PL that every Bundesliga graduate mentions the need to adapt in their interviews!

So criticising someone for getting to the top level of football, winning the PL and Champions league and helping them become the best in world football is a stupid argument to try and make. Fabinho is better than Zakaria and you know you can't prove otherwise as you have nothing stats wise to back you up. So you try to change the rules of engagement.

Honestly it's posts like this filled with unsubstantiated claims that get on my nerves. If you have an opinion and want to call someone out on theirs back yours up because sometimes you're opinion is less supported or in this case, completely unfounded in any evidence basis as you have consistently failed to show anything in support of this assertion.


I don't believe he will change because he's spoke openly about admiring Klopp's style. He has spoken about wanting to play a high line and wants his fullbacks to push forward but we don't have the players to play that style yet.
Sean Dyche has admired Klopp's style. Does that mean Burnley strive to be like Liverpool?

Show me the quotes of Ole saying he wants to play like Monchengladbach or like Liverpool?

You know AWB and Shaw pushed up a lot in our games recently with Matic at DM. They are our main providers of with as both Greenwood and Rashford cut inside to perform offensive actions including crossing. We already play this style with Matic, Bruno and Pogba and the addition of Sancho will only make it easier.
 

Skeezix

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 7, 2017
Messages
145
I haven't watched much of Thomas Partey or Zakaria, and I don't trust youtube compilations/highlight reels to form my own opinion on these Players. So I don't and can't talk about them until I've watched their full matches.

From the Wolves matches I've watched, and from his links with Real Madrid long back, I wouldn't mind Reuben Neves at United. I'm impressed every time he plays against us
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Ah, so he is instructed to? Was he instructed to by Dieter Hecking aswell? And maybe Samassekou did not play according to Roses instruction then, since he was more progressive than Zakaria under Rose. In general Samassekou is very average and poor compared to Zakaria, but he played with more risk than Zakaria for Salzburg in the EL.
Different team, different personnel, much inferior league..
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
Inaccurate. You asked who played there. I gave you the answer. It would not be correct to not include Henderson as he played there a significant amount of minutes during Fabinhos injury. You then started talking about his very irrelevant completion accuracy.
As you can see from my interactions with him.

When you prove him wrong he won't listen. He'll just use laughing emojis in place of making a constructive argument. You've responded well to his points IMO.
And still Hestad and Aursnes is the two players he has used the most in midfield. Two players far from anything like Zakaria. Hestad in particular would be more comparable to Carrick.

And Klopp himself has rarely to never played with players like Zakaria as the deepest midfielders. Instead he has used players like Fabinho, Henderson, Sahin and Kehl there. Players who are significantly better at passing the ball than Zakaria.
Excellent point. Klopp has historically not played with a Zakaria type in his midfield's deepest position. He's preferred stronger passers of the ball.
I never asked you anything, you responded to me..

And using Henderson was irrelevant when he was a filler and not the actual DM. You could've actually actually used the benchmark rather than the pretender for the role.
You asked him. You just don't like the answer and I helped support his responses because he is correct and you are not. Unless you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise.
That was after you engaged me in conversation. But let's leave that because it's not gonna get us anywhere.

So Henderson in 10 games as a deep midfielder is a better passer than Zakaria who is instructed to play quick short passes.??
It won't get you anywhere as you know you asked for this info. You then flip between arguing % stats are important and then irrelevant.

Fabinho is instructed to play quick short passes too. He just does it better. Henderson when instructed to play quick short passes also does it better. Both have more of an effect on the game with their passing than Zakaria.

You really should stop arguing an indefensible position and start focusing on the positives in Zakaria's game like his relatively low dispossession stats for someone playing a more high energy role, his impressive dribbling stats etc. There is so much to like in him as a player I don't understand why you labour under the one aspect of his game he needs to work on system or not.
Ah, so he is instructed to? Was he instructed to by Dieter Hecking aswell? And maybe Samassekou did not play according to Roses instruction then, since he was more progressive than Zakaria under Rose. In general Samassekou is very average and poor compared to Zakaria, but he played with more risk than Zakaria for Salzburg in the EL.
:lol: Let me guess his argument against this one... they don't pass the eye test or stats don't matter?

Well done for calling this one out with examples!
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
Different team, different personnel, much inferior league..
So you're saying you can't suggest a player is better than another if they are performing in a different team, with different players in an inferior league.

Exactly like Zakaria compared to Fabinho :wenger:
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
Do we have anyone coming through the ranks to be the deepest in our midfield setup?
James Garner would be the obvious candidate. He's had some exposure with the first team and sometimes captains the U23s when he plays.

The consensus as I understand it (correct me if wrong) is that he might benefit from a loan next season with teams like Swansea suggested to get regular men's football in preparation for being a part of the senior team the season after. In other words. Matic gets another year and then Garner will be better placed to give him a run for his money.

But we do have potential coming through.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
And it’s also the reason I believe someone of that skill set will have more joy in our side.

I just think a consistent passing line breaker will find Bruno and Pogba more than a dribbling line breaker and so against the smaller sides which we play 90% of the time there will be a bigger benefit.

Against the bigger teams as long as that player is mobile enough to position well and delay an attacking side they’ll do well too or you just play a defensive double pivot which Koop could easily do.

A more proven version of Koop would be lovely but I don’t see any such player available on the market.

It’s a very big assumption especially when Ole himself has said and suggested we are a counter attacking side these are all his quotes:

When asked about him preferring a counter attacking style of play

“That's always been the way I like to play football. Get the ball up in the opposition's half as soon as you can, as quickly as you can. If you score, fantastic. If not then you've got to have patient build-up play. But attack quickly.”

"I am always going to be demanding that when we’ve got the ball, we will try to make the most of it. Pass forward, run forward, and be that type of football team,"

"But I always believe in forward passes, penetrative passes, wide play, getting crosses in the box. Pass and move, pass and run, play and run forward. Every player I’ve had if you ask them will tell you the same, that it’s about passing forward, running forward.'

It's so easy to see he wants fast progressive passers on the counter.

We do press more than we did under Mourinho but our average ball recovery is 59.38m away from the opponents goal under Ole compared to 62.24m. So we average a 2.86m higher ball recovery (Old Trafford is 105m long so basically we're pressing 2.72% higher up the pitch). Now I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure most professional athletes can cover that extra 2.86m difference.


So lets assume we throw stats out the window. I believe based on the eye test Fabinho is a better passer. Prove me wrong. You can't.

You're argument so far has been to ask for stats, then when they disprove your point to remove them from the equation. You basically don't like that you are wrong on one point and can't admit it. It's funny.

Fabinho does not have more time on the ball in the PL than Zakaria, if this is your eye test go to specsavers. If you truly believe this. Prove it. Show me the average time Zakaria has on the ball compared to Fabinho. If you believe otherwise then you're being dishonest and don't watch Liverpool. Your statements are also BS as you have not evidence or backed up a single one of them. All of my points have been evidence based.

I am not using a spreadsheet I am using a recognised database for these stats. You're not criticising my analysis here you are criticising stats from globally recognised sources. By doing so you remove any ability to say Zakaria can be compared with anyone and that essentially your word is gospel. Jesus that's a bad position to be trying to defend.

I have watched Zakaria (12) , Partey (7), Rice (14), Ndidi (16) and Koopmeiners (19) matches this season he is one of 5 options I have done my homework on. I do not claim to have performed the full eye test on any other players for DM. I think that along with stats, is a good enough match basis to get a feel for Borussia Mon and their playstyle along with Zakaria and his playstyle and I stand by the fact he is a progressive dribbler more than he is a line breaking passer. It's his tendancy. If there is any player of those I mentioned you want to claim I haven't seen Partey is the one to pick which is also why you see me contribute less to discussions about him.

The German league affords attacking players more time and space than the PL does as a result not of just attacking play but of inferior defensive play too. It is harder to be an excellent defender in the PL than Bundesliga because the standard is higher in the PL.

It's far harder to be a good enough DM to play for Liverpool in the first place. Fabinho literally has to be world class to win the Champions League and PL and perform at his top level week in week out. The demands are so much higher in terms of pace in the PL that every Bundesliga graduate mentions the need to adapt in their interviews!

So criticising someone for getting to the top level of football, winning the PL and Champions league and helping them become the best in world football is a stupid argument to try and make. Fabinho is better than Zakaria and you know you can't prove otherwise as you have nothing stats wise to back you up. So you try to change the rules of engagement.

Honestly it's posts like this filled with unsubstantiated claims that get on my nerves. If you have an opinion and want to call someone out on theirs back yours up because sometimes you're opinion is less supported or in this case, completely unfounded in any evidence basis as you have consistently failed to show anything in support of this assertion.



Sean Dyche has admired Klopp's style. Does that mean Burnley strive to be like Liverpool?

Show me the quotes of Ole saying he wants to play like Monchengladbach or like Liverpool?

You know AWB and Shaw pushed up a lot in our games recently with Matic at DM. They are our main providers of with as both Greenwood and Rashford cut inside to perform offensive actions including crossing. We already play this style with Matic, Bruno and Pogba and the addition of Sancho will only make it easier.
Soksjaer's quotes don't help you here but rather enforce my view that he wants to replicate what he did at Molde for several years.


I'm glad you counted the number of games you watched those players play in.. :lol:

Has Sean Dyche ever implemented a high press and played a high risk strategy? I thought not, Solskjaer has, so you using Dyche is a moot point.
 

Water Melon

before it dries out, eh
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
3,166
Location
garden bed
James Garner would be the obvious candidate. He's had some exposure with the first team and sometimes captains the U23s when he plays.

The consensus as I understand it (correct me if wrong) is that he might benefit from a loan next season with teams like Swansea suggested to get regular men's football in preparation for being a part of the senior team the season after. In other words. Matic gets another year and then Garner will be better placed to give him a run for his money.

But we do have potential coming through.
With Matic's legs being on their last run, I believe it would make more sense to let each of them feature next season. Matic will get rest when needed, while Garner is introduced to the men's football gradually.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
So you're saying you can't suggest a player is better than another if they are performing in a different team, with different players in an inferior league.

Exactly like Zakaria compared to Fabinho :wenger:
My entire argument is that a player doesn't need to have expansive passing to play at DM at the highest level and succeed, especially in a high press and there's many examples.
 

BenitoSTARR

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
1,698
Soksjaer's quotes don't help you here but rather enforce my view that he wants to replicate what he did at Molde for several years.


I'm glad you counted the number of games you watched those players play in.. :lol:

Has Sean Dyche ever implemented a high press and played a high risk strategy? I thought not, Solskjaer has, so you using Dyche is a moot point.
They show his preference for a counter attack with progressive and expansive passers. Anyone who can read can see that.

You've ignored lots of points so I assume you have no evidenced arguments against:
  • A line breaking passer being more beneficial in 90% of games
  • The fact we only have a 2.86m difference in average ball recovery position this season which is not an insurmountable distance for any DM to cover compared to Mourinho
  • Fabinho is playing in a tougher league against tougher opposition
  • Fabinho is playing to a higher standard consistently
  • Fabinho is a world class DM
  • Fabinho is a PL and CL winner
  • Fabinho is by every observable metric a better passer than Zakaria
  • You admit weaker leagues don't make players better than others
  • You admit you don't watch players like Koopmeiners so have no basis of argument against them
  • You accept that the stats used are from internationally recognised sources
  • You accept your argument is currently entirely anecdotal and unsubstantiated
  • You accept Zakaria's real strength is his progressive dribbling over passing
  • You accept the Bundesliga is inferior to the PL
  • You accept that Bundesliga graduates (both coaches and players) reference the increased demands of the PL regularly in interviews and suggest its tougher
  • You accept that silly anecdotes don't mean anything without evidence (ref Sean Dyche)
Therefore I conclude you accept you are wrong.
My entire argument is that a player doesn't need to have expansive passing to play at DM at the highest level and succeed, especially in a high press and there's many examples.
We were talking about Fabinho's passing compared to Zakaria's. Why would you fight so hard to prove he's a good passer if it wasn't important in a fast transitioning team?
 

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
20,603
Location
Birmingham
The way I see it, even when Matic leaves, we have two ball winners in Fred and McTominay. In Pogba, we only have one proper ball playing centre midfielder. Fred is not bad on the ball, but he's no Pogba. That said, who is?

If I was Ole, I wouldn't even buy a DM yet. I'd buy a number 10, who can also play as an 8. That way, that player can come in for Bruno or play deep when Pogba is out.

One thing I learned against Norwich the other day is that, we still struggle to create from deep with McT and Fred. They may have just been having an off day, but everything was just so safe until Pogba came on.

If we can get a 10/8 who has similar playmaking abilities, then we wouldn't lack for creativity, especially when Pogba is rested.

Grealish has been a player mentioned, but not sure he would fare in a double pivot. He certainly has the physical qualities to look after himself in there, but there's so much more to it. Having the option to play him as a left midfielder, number 10 and number 8 would mean he'd also be getting loads of playing time.