Lets make up 2 choices which do not reflect real life and chose one.
Like I said originally, the premise is wrong. Stop listening to idiot pundits on Talkshite. It's called Talkshite for a reason.
Prefer to look good and lose than look bad and win...!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
Like I said originally, the premise is wrong. Stop listening to idiot pundits on Talkshite. It's called Talkshite for a reason.
It's not that simplistic though. But yes I'd go a couple of seasons playing attacking football but progressing each season to where we eventually are a genuine threat to winning the title on an ongoing basis. I wouldn't be just happy to play attacking football for seasons on end finishing 4th doing an Arsenal under Wenger in later yrs. I'll always be a proponent of attacking football over dour, negative, defensive style football but there still has to be an aim to keep improving.
It's obvious when you look at what the forum is like when we're not very good but just about winning though (last season). Most want more and expect more to come.
I'd go along with this. The question as one or the other is too simplistic, like you say.
I think a large part of the fans agreed pre-OGS. You can play beautiful football, lose and not be sour for the day/weekend. Whereas any time we lost under Jose you'd be depressed for every wasting your time.
The OP needs to do this.
And regarding which I prefer - winning. That's the most important thing.
The longer we go without winning a league title, the more difficult it will be to win it. LFC went over 2 decades of not winning and they still haven't won it.
CFC, MCFC are currently the ones who tend to win it.
Winning is a habit and when you have the winning habit, you keep on winning.
Losing is also a habit - when you are losing, you keep on losing.
This is why we need to do whatever it takes to break that losing habit and win the damn thing.
Agreed.
But what you are describing is playing boring football and losing.
The OP is asking: good football and top 4 OR boring football and win the league.
Attacking football without many trophies is cool, and boring football with many trophies is cool too. The biggest problem is playing boring football with poor results and not many trophies to show for it.
As for your question, if it ultimately comes down to one or the other, then I'd pick the second option anyday of the week. For me, winning should be the priority. There is no attacking football that is more exciting than the euphoria at a cup final victory or successful title win.
Attack and Win. That's all.
At the end of the day trophies is what matters... sadly.
Fans might be euphoric post mourinho and says they enjoy the football and that's what matters, but if we only got top 4 in another 5 years withour winning anything significant questions will be asked. Heads would roll.
Arsenal anyone?
If poch comes and win nothing in 5 years time he'll be deemed a failure and we will look for the other end of the spectrum in other manager.
For me the greatest pleasure in football is seeing your team win. I'm more exited in a shit football but winning the macth compared to tottenham state at the moment where everything is rosy attacking but nothing to show for in the grand scheme of things.
Edit: what makes a match exciting for me is what's at stake. If it's the penultimate game of the season where title are decided we can play extremely shit football and I'd still be excited. Rather than winning 7-0 in a dead rubber match. Off course winning with a good football is preferred. But if we can park the bus and won in 2009 and 2011 I'd take that in an instance
Tbh I will always choose winning over losing, but when you win while consistently looking bad, you're bound to start losing at some point.
Why is entertaining attacking football so often associated with the lack of trophies? I don't have the evidence but I reckon attacking football consistently results in more trophies than defensive football.
Thread title giving me grammatical nightmares.
Making sense now. Look good and lose then look good and win seems like a natural acceptable progression.
I stopped going to games and then stopped watching it on TV, it just wasn't enjoyable any more. Had we been winning I would have probably continued to watch on TV but it's a long journey for me it's isn't justifiable if I'm going to be bored watching the game regardless of the result. The atmosphere is terrible unless the team are giving us something by attacking. Depending on who we appoint and the game we play I will start to go to some games again.
So I would say I would prefer to look good and win less trophies from a game going point of view but as already been pointed out that over time that would start to wear a bit thin. I was pro Mouriho when he was appointed I think that as we were already pretty dull to watch so the maybe winning would be enough. I think if we did win the league then he wouldn't be getting so much stick, but he didn't and we have got worse.
The last 5 years has really taught us that we shouldn't disregard our history and traditions for managers and their philosophies. The long and short of it is that we are Manchester United and we demand both to win and look good, but I would be more forgiving of a manager that tried to play the right way.
So I would say I would prefer to look good and win less trophies from a game going point of view but as already been pointed out that over time that would start to wear a bit thin. I was pro Mouriho when he was appointed I think that as we were already pretty dull to watch so the maybe winning would be enough. I think if we did win the league then he wouldn't be getting so much stick, but he didn't and we have got worse.
The last 5 years has really taught us that we shouldn't disregard our history and traditions for managers and their philosophies. The long and short of it is that we are Manchester United and we demand both to win and look good, but I would be more forgiving of a manager that tried to play the right way.
I have no idea what you are on about and why not ask the question?
If plenty of people are more fussed about attacking football it adds extra credence to supporting Ole, if everyone just wants wins as a priority then more time is required to assess and the bar might be higher.
Good post
I did ask for a fix...it didn't happen!
You can fix it yourself. Look at the top of the page >> thread tools.
We've won every fecking game under Ole, wtf are you on about?
If by “many” you mean “very occasional” then I’m with you. With Van Gaal we maybe got half a season with games that fitted that description, with Mourinho slightly longer. For the majority of both their tenures the football was atrociously dull.
In terms of % fun vs dull Ole has knocked them both out of the park. Although admittedly from a tiny sample.
Yes but the point is still that his methods are not yet fully tested, but the attacking style has already been demonstrated.
If all you want is good attacking football...job done.
If you are focused on winning there is still the risk of a drop off and that might question how good Ole really is, but you can't even at that point question the attacking intent as that has already been shown.
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Boring
I'm for competent football, you aim to score as many goals as possible and concede as little as possible. You also need to show sportsmanship, for example I hate when teams try to keep the ball in the corner, it doesn't even work.
Sorry, a win is a win, there is only lucky win and comfortable win. A loss is a loss, there is only terrible loss and not so terrible loss. Don't mix up the 2.
Neither are sustainable for Manchester United imo. If we win with awful football, we enjoy the wins and stature but might as well not watch the games. If we play nice football but consistently finish around 5th to 7th, we might enjoy more individual games but then the club loses a fair amount of what made it so special in the past 2+ decades.
Comparing them to ole isnt fair because ole at the moment is the ideal best case scenario where beautiful football coupled with maximum results. I mean it's a no brainer beauty + win is preferred.
Would we trade our 5 years trophy haul for tottenham or liverpool beautiful football? That should be the fair choice
Thanks for initiating this topic RedTillI'mDead
I think we have seen since SAF retired that there is a huge dip in our entertainment value (one of the big reasons people like me who like thousands of miles away became life long fans) on the pitch. There was a brief period under LVG where we were really good, beating Pool, Spurs and a couple of other teams while playing superb football but that died after we conceded a few goals. As fans, I think high tempo, entertaining football is what made us love this club and that is where we should go back. Results / marquee players / junior players and their parents will all get taken care of once we start playing really entertaining football
I think we have seen since SAF retired that there is a huge dip in our entertainment value (one of the big reasons people like me who like thousands of miles away became life long fans) on the pitch. There was a brief period under LVG where we were really good, beating Pool, Spurs and a couple of other teams while playing superb football but that died after we conceded a few goals. As fans, I think high tempo, entertaining football is what made us love this club and that is where we should go back. Results / marquee players / junior players and their parents will all get taken care of once we start playing really entertaining football
Good question and I would, 100%.
A mixed bag for me. First year Mourinho was fairly good, especially given the awful base under LVG. I'd arguably even keep the following year with us in 2nd. But this is following LVG and who knows how different it could he without him and Moyes screwing things up. Mourinho should only get 2 year deals which would make 3rd year irrelevant, he should be out by then!
I would happily have one less FA Cup to avoid the two years under LVG.
Moyes interestingly managed to show that how you attack is also important. His style was fairly free flowing crossing, but with absolutely no idea how to make it work!
So I'm not sure that would be a good example of looking good and losing!
I think I can probably summarise the combined view as ....
If you look bad, you must win or you are the worst kind of virus
If you look good, you need to still win a good amount, but there is a longer period of forgiveness for not winning, aka Klopp, but just not for too long aka Wenger
If you look bad, you must win or you are the worst kind of virus
If you look good, you need to still win a good amount, but there is a longer period of forgiveness for not winning, aka Klopp, but just not for too long aka Wenger
But what happens if you play bad and don't win?
People seem to think pragmatic football automatically means trophies. That's kind of a lie.
People seem to think pragmatic football automatically means trophies. That's kind of a lie.
I think both are possible but I see your point. Week on week going to the game, I go to support the team but I want them to play well, I enjoy it when they play well. Over the last few years that enjoyment hasn't been there. So that's difficult because if you have limited free time and you commit to something you don't enjoy ? Winning trophies is always a bonus to the enjoyment of watching and supporting.
'play well, enjoy yourselves....BUT WIN!!' to quote a legend
'play well, enjoy yourselves....BUT WIN!!' to quote a legend
Although trophyless, I would think Spurs and Liverpool have definitely won more plaudits and goodwill over the last few years from neutrals for their brand of football. I'm not sure how long this will last before questions are asked about trophies.
On a personal level, just the small sample of the last seven games have made me realise have bad the last 5 years have been as a United fan. This period now feels like a harmonious family unit with everything clicking on and off the pitch. Even being in 6th and chasing the top 4 is more enjoyable than what I experienced since Sir Alex retired. Including the FA cup and Europa win.
On a personal level, just the small sample of the last seven games have made me realise have bad the last 5 years have been as a United fan. This period now feels like a harmonious family unit with everything clicking on and off the pitch. Even being in 6th and chasing the top 4 is more enjoyable than what I experienced since Sir Alex retired. Including the FA cup and Europa win.
Apart from Jose football, those were some depressing days.
I don’t however see why we can’t have both but in the long run I’d rather watch my team try to play football with excitement and verve and go out try and win and maybe take a loss or two in the process. Hopefully eventually it all comes together and we get the excitement and trophies.
Always, always, always attacking, entertaining football. Because success stems from it. But it's not an either or - if you build a strong team and play good football you will win something. Because that's how teams win. There are outliers of course, but 90% of the time the team that deserves it wins. And the team that wins is usually the team that went and got it, not the team that stands around hoping everyone else fecks up.
If I was offered a trophy a season for 10 years but boring football, or no guarantee of trophies but attacking entertaining football (still with the possibility of winning) I'd of course take the latter.
If I was offered a trophy a season for 10 years but boring football, or no guarantee of trophies but attacking entertaining football (still with the possibility of winning) I'd of course take the latter.
It's pretty much a case of over the last 3/4 years, would you prefer to be in our position having won Europa League, League Cup, FA Cup and a Community Shield or Liverpool/Spurs who have watched decent attacking football but not won a trophy between them?
It is a hard one because there is no better feeling in football than winning a trophy but the dire stuff we had to endure under LVG/Jose was making my eyes bleed.
If you say to me prefer our last 4 years or Spurs/Liverpool, I would say ours due to the trophy wins.
Hopefully Ole can win a few while playing decent football. I never want to get into the mindset of Arsenal/Spurs fans where finishing in the top 4 every year and not winning anything is fine.
Want to be challenging for leagues and cups on an annual basis while hopefully playing decent football along the way.
It is a hard one because there is no better feeling in football than winning a trophy but the dire stuff we had to endure under LVG/Jose was making my eyes bleed.
If you say to me prefer our last 4 years or Spurs/Liverpool, I would say ours due to the trophy wins.
Hopefully Ole can win a few while playing decent football. I never want to get into the mindset of Arsenal/Spurs fans where finishing in the top 4 every year and not winning anything is fine.
Want to be challenging for leagues and cups on an annual basis while hopefully playing decent football along the way.
There are no guarantees that Simeone will win the league here. If anything, Mourinho was a sure fire bet of winning the league in his time here given his past.
However, what is fairly evident in the last few months is that our attack is good enough to beat most other teams in the league, so attacking football should be an imperative. Some good defensive transfers in the summer and that point should be even more the case.
If you are aiming to compete with top clubs like Real, Barca and Bayern, you have to both look good (to attract top players) and win. If even the third tier clubs like City and PSG can do it, why can't we? It's never one or the other.
Style wise, even counter-attacking football is great to watch under a competent coach.
Style wise, even counter-attacking football is great to watch under a competent coach.
I was talking purely theoretical. A few years back I was keen on Simeone, but now there is no chance in hell. I've been enlightened to what attempted pragmatic football is like to watch every week and I hate it!