Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped
- Thread starter L1nk
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Quoted for truth
There were people on here who were completely convinced - to the point of telling you you were an idiot if you disagreed - that Rangnick's job was never to manage the team anyway, just to "expose" the toxic players and give the next manager 6 months of invaluable insight.
Sounds like the club and the next manager have both told him they don't need his insights. Good riddance, and a complete waste of six months.
The club should have just read Caf for that. There was no need to hire anyone for that.Quoted for truth
There were people on here who were completely convinced - to the point of telling you you were an idiot if you disagreed - that Rangnick's job was never to manage the team anyway, just to "expose" the toxic players and give the next manager 6 months of invaluable insight.
Sounds like the club and the next manager have both told him they don't need his insights. Good riddance, and a complete waste of six months.
We don't need 10 players ? The entire caf is also pandering to muppets ?
That I agree with, there was obviously no plan in hiring Ralf beyond hoping he could get the team back on track and come 4th, the consultancy was simply to make up for his Lokomotiv contract it seems. But in that case he was a horrible choice as he was never a top manager to begin with and he's way past his best.
No we don't Ralf.
Yeah it hasn't gone great tbh. The players obviously binned him fairly early on when it became clear they physically couldn't do what he wanted.
Well yeah I think if Carrick had taken over we would probably have got top four. But then ETH would have had to start form scratch dealing with unchallenged player power with no reason to think the club would back him. And so he wouldn't have come. We would have ended up with Poch who I don't think is strong enough to deal with these problems.
I don't think the Glazers were that bothered about missing top four. There was far more at stake.
No we obviously don't need 10 new players, that's a ridiculous statement. If you genuinely believe United need 10 new players then thank feck you (and seemingly Ralf) are nowhere near united.
The entire caf is full of muppets for what it's worth.
Come on mate, you were touting this narrative a few weeks ago and back then it was a stretch but it makes even less sense now that Rangnicks been effectively sacked. There was obviously no long term masterplan for Ralf beyond hiring an experienced coach in the hope of securing top 4. Ralf acheived nothing beyond making his successor's job harder on and off the pitch.
While, if the news are true, he's looking to get a CB, a RB, 2 CMs, and a striker. That's half of the team
No there is clearly a master plan which is to convert to high press. That's the common thread of Ralf and the two permanent manager candidates, Poch and ETH. And it's quite clear that the current crop of players couldn't play that style and refused to even try after a couple of weeks. If the club had gone along with that then missing out on top four would have been the least of its problems.
If it was that clear, why bother keeping Rangnick beyond the first couple of weeks? What has he contributed to this master plan of converting to high press?
And again, if the players binned Rangnick off after half an hour of his first game, how is ETH any better off now in terms of dealing with this unchallenged player power? What has Rangnick done in the last six months that helps Ten Hag now or convinced him to take the job?
Because the bolded bit just reads to me like an insane leap of logic, based on absolutely nothing. You're saying we're better off from a long-term perspective now than we would have been had we made the top four under Carrick or whoever else, because...?
There is and was a plan to switch styles to whichever style the next permenent manager prefers, but that's always the case isn't it?
There was no plan to switch mid-season which is why Ralf quickly abandoned it.
Gone along with what exactly?
Because the club had to show the next manager (whoever they were) that they would be backed in the quest to modernise the football and it was the players that were the problem. Sacking Ralf would have sent the opposite message and we would have ended up with Poch weakly trying to manage the unmanageable.
Or worse the players would have turned up for Carrick, gone on a winning run and he would have got the job full time and the whole Ole cycle would have repeated. There are people here who would say that would have been good. That would have been a disaster.
No on this occasion the style was chosen first. Ralf abandoned it because the players refused to play it, but that's all he knows. It's quite clear that if the club was style agnostic they could have kept Carrick around till season end. And they could surely have fired Ralf and brought in someone else since he only does Gegenpress. But neither of those things happened. Instead they brought in Ralf, kept him in post all season, then replaced him with another high presser. The events fit my narrative.
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How did the club show the next manager over the course of Rangnick's tenure that they would be backed and the players were the problem? Because of his press conferences every week? Or because we played awful football every week for so long that it somehow became apparent the coach was blameless?
More insane leaps of logic. Or maybe under Carrick / an alternative interim, we would have played to the level of last season and actually scraped a Champions League spot, thereby giving Ten Hag a much better platform to start off from.
You're saying it's a good thing Rangnick did such a shite job as a manager because if the interim manager had actually gotten results we would have given him the full-time job, because we did it 3 years ago. Never mind the widespread reports (at the time Solskjaer was sacked) that it was only ever going to be an interim because our top choices (Ten Hag/Pochettino) would likely be unavailable till the summer.
Ok since what I'm saying fits with what actually happened, how do you explain why they didn't give Carrick the interim role? Why did they bring in Rangnick who had a reputation as a club builder and not a manager. And why did they keep him around after his Gegenpress flopped?
Are you still banging this drum? His job was to get the best results possible to the end of the season. He failed and now we've rightly sent him packing.
What you're saying does not fit in with what actually happened. It fits in with what you've made up in your head about some "master plan".
I think it was a case of getting who the club thought was the best short-term appointment available, while they went after a long-term permanent manager. You think Rangnick was here to start the master plan of high pressing and send a signal to the next manager that the club would back him over the players. Since we're talking about things that actually happened, here's a list of three:
1) the club didn't back Rangnick with any new signings (despite his style of play apparently being in line with the master plan)
2) we didn't display any form of a coordinated high press beyond the first hour against Crystal Palace
3) Rangnick is being moved on and the club will not use his services as a consultant, contrary to what was initially agreed
That doesn't look like a master plan at all to me. It looks like an interim manager doing a crap job and being moved on.
Because Rangnick, at least before the shower he produced here, had a reputation as a respected coach, and Carrick does not. I would have picked Rangnick (or Lopetegui, or Blanc, or whoever else was rumored at the time) over Carrick too.
I think it was a case of getting who the club thought was the best short-term appointment available, while they went after a long-term permanent manager. You think Rangnick was here to start the master plan of high pressing and send a signal to the next manager that the club would back him over the players. Since we're talking about things that actually happened, here's a list of three:
1) the club didn't back Rangnick with any new signings (despite his style of play apparently being in line with the master plan)
2) we didn't display any form of a coordinated high press beyond the first hour against Crystal Palace
3) Rangnick is being moved on and the club will not use his services as a consultant, contrary to what was initially agreed
That doesn't look like a master plan at all to me. It looks like an interim manager doing a crap job and being moved on.
That's such laughable nonsense, seriously.
You don't need a masterplan to convert to high press. You make it sound like Kennedy proposing an national decade-long effort to go to the fecking moon. All you need is a manager who can coach a team to press. Et voila.
Team employ pressing everywhere, of all quality, in all leagues.
Or what, was Mark Hughes's shit stint there to prepare the fundamental Southampton effort to have Hasenhüttl convert the club to high pressing?
BS. You coach a team to press, it presses, end of story. Rangnick just couldn't get it done.
I remember your posts about Rangnick from when the news of the appointment broke on here.
Literally bang on about everything, including the insufferable self-promotion. That must have felt good.
Are you still banging that drum? He was an interim manager till the end of the season. The season ended. So he stopped being manager.
Well you should look harder.
Yeah you do. You need an elite coach who knows the ins and outs of high press. And then a few years buying the right players. If only there were two clubs in the vicinity of Manchester to illustrate this point so that people who know nothing about football could grasp it more easily...
I think you could make a good attempt to get just about anything fit your narrative mate. Fair play mate.
The club may well have planned on switching to a pressing style but Rangnick had little to do with that. It's now quite apparent with his departure that he was solely brought into right the ship and secure top 4 by any means necessary. That much was glaringly obvious when he abandoned the pressing and his 4222 formation after less than a month when they weren't working.
Fact is if he had been brought into start the switch in style regardless of results he would have persevered with the pressing style, but he didn't which most definitely does not fit nicely into your narrative mate.
Can people just stop using the term “high press”? I think some really don’t know what they are talking about and what they want to talk about.
The players literally refused/were unable to press. That's pretty well documented. He couldn't persevere no matter what he might have wished. It wasn't an option.
Carrick isn't a manager and has no experience in that role they probably felt they couldn't risk giving him for the job for the season with CL football in the balance, hence why they went with someone more experienced that was known to Murtagh in Rangnick.
Having already sacked one manager this season they were hardly going to sack an Interim then start a parallel search for an Interim, Interim manager while also looking for a new permanent manager. Plus up until April we were still in with a shout for 4th amazingly. That one's just common sense mate, come on.
No he wouldn't persevere mate there's a difference, if for some bizarre he'd been hired to change the style of play mid-season regardless of results he would have just kept trying.
He didn't persevere because A, he wasn't asked to do that and B, when it wasn't working he changed it up and tried something different because coming 4th was his priority. The actual reason Solskjaer was sacked and Rangnick hired.
I think you should do a better job responding to my points with points of your own. Ones you can actually back up with something tangible. Unlike, for instance:
Fascinating. Where is this documented?
Not surprised at all. Was bullshit from the start. Feels funny for people who were defending this role or actually thinking he will have anything to do at the club.
We talked about this when it was revealed he will be Austrian manager and he will be only be at the club for 6 days a month or so. We said this role is clearly bollocks. People still argued.
I have said it before but this forum is really full of people who love arguing for the sake of it even if everything points against the opposite, no, let's argue till the official confirmation comes, then act shocked and surprised.
Ralf ended up being another huge failure of an appointment.
We talked about this when it was revealed he will be Austrian manager and he will be only be at the club for 6 days a month or so. We said this role is clearly bollocks. People still argued.
I have said it before but this forum is really full of people who love arguing for the sake of it even if everything points against the opposite, no, let's argue till the official confirmation comes, then act shocked and surprised.
Ralf ended up being another huge failure of an appointment.
Well the evidence is your eyes watching the games. But this, just at random after one second of googling...?
"Asked specifically about the club’s noticeable lack of pressing, a characteristic of most Rangnick sides, the manager brought up Ronaldo unprompted.
“I am the one who is most disappointed about that and frustrated about that. At one stage we just had to find compromises — attacking a little bit deeper, how can we make sure that we get our offensive players into their positions?
“Cristiano scored a few goals but, again, Cristiano — and I’m not blaming him at all, he did great in those games - but he’s not a pressing monster. He’s not a player - even when he was a young player - he was not a young player who was crying, shouting “Hurray, the other team has got the ball, where can we win balls?
“And the same with quite a few other players so we had to make some compromises at one stage, maybe we made a few too many — that’s also possible — but, as I said, we never found the right balance between what do we need with the ball and without the ball.”"
To address your points directly as you asked,
1) the club were clear that they weren't going to waste money on stop gap players - long term planning was the only order of business.
2) Yes. Because the players refused/were unable to do it.
3) Moving on was always the plan. The consultancy cancellation I agree was his reward for failure on the pitch, but also ETH sees him as tainted for doing some of the dirty work so doesn't want to be associated with him. That's smart politics too.
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Do you know what "documented" means?
record (something) in written, photographic, or other form.
Which is why I also quoted the article.
Do you know what "evidence" means?
And we're back to "Rangnick did the dirty work", "the players refused to press and here's an interview from the man himself to serve as documented evidence of it" (he's also talking more self-serving bollocks about Klopp in that interview, by the way - Liverpool's pressing was obvious in his first season even while finishing 8th. Pressing =/= winning)
Just going to peace-out at this point, and refer to the post about cultists that prompted me into this topic in the first place.
And also this one. Sums it up.
We all agree that Ralf was hired by Murtough - no? I mean, that surely has to be the premise. It seems a stretch and a half that he was not Murtough's idea.
So - what (exactly) was his (Murtough's) reasoning behind hiring Ralf?
ETA
And - the follow-up question is, of course: what's the connection between Ralf and ETH?
A cynical person might say there is none - this is just as random (meaning: there is no proper plan behind it) as all our other managerial appointments post SAF.
So - what (exactly) was his (Murtough's) reasoning behind hiring Ralf?
ETA
And - the follow-up question is, of course: what's the connection between Ralf and ETH?
A cynical person might say there is none - this is just as random (meaning: there is no proper plan behind it) as all our other managerial appointments post SAF.
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I really have no idea what you are talking about. Your eyes say the players stopped pressing almost straight away. Ralf said the players stopped pressing. And you said it as well. Is anybody disagreeing about this?
Anyway I'm sure our pressing will be obvious in ETH's first season too.
WUMs everywhere!
Returning to read all these discussions and posts in his thread about how he's brought for the future of the club and not just for short term interim job will make for truly a hilarious read.
I genuinely wonder will another top club ever be managed by two worse managers in a single season ever again! Ole and Ralf *shudder*
The reasoning was that we needed someone with coaching experience to see out the rest of the season, and the permanent solution who fit the criteria in the mid to long-term was already in a job at Ajax, and was competing for the league and champions league.
So it was important to at the very least attempt to look for someone who would try and coach the team to play a high tempo, highly intensive play style with and without the ball, with counter pressing capabilities. Because that's the norm at other big clubs and it wasn't at United post Fergie, where the managerial appointments weren't thought-out from a football perspective when it comes to implementing a proactive attacking play style which meshed with the modern game.
Unfortunately the decision to appoint Rangnick coincided with several of the existing coaches leaving. And it's very difficult to recover from that, when the squad is already on a downward trajectory. And unfortunately Rangnick didn't help the cause either and destabilised a already fractured dressing room further.
But the decision to hire Rangnick was the correct one as the interim, and the decision to hire ten Hag as the permanent head coach again is the correct decision as far as trying to implement a football approach that meshes well with the modern day demands when it comes to implementing a progressive play style with and without the ball.
There's going to be bumps in the road and that's inevitable and people will look to place blame on someone. But for me, it's the first time post Fergie where we've made two managerial appointments (interim/permanent) where the thinking behind the appointments was to evolve our play style and bring it in-line with modern day football concepts which are seen at the big clubs domestically and in Europe.
The connection between ten Hag and Ralf is that they both have similarities in their approach when it comes to implementing a compact high block. And that's something we've been unable to do.
It would seem there wasn't any real plan at all, certainly not a long term one anyway. Just a hastily thrown together one after they finally realized Ole had to go. According to Murtagh himself they weren't even planning on sacking Solskjaer until the Watford defeat and they didn't even speak to any potential Interim manager prior to that. It was just a random pick from a few available names in the hope of salvaging something from the season.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-murtough-rangnick-solskjaer-25770946
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