Martial just isn't good enough for us. We have given him plenty of time and chances but he just isn't working out. I wonder if Ole has the balls to move him on!
Rashford and Martial are a problem
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Honestly just makes me more annoyed we didn't bite the bullet and get Haaland. A reliable goalscorer is a must if we want to compete on all fronts.
Always felt we should player either Martial or Rashford and at LW only and I still stick by that. I thought after last season I may be wrong and Martial could be our long-term number 9 as it looked he may be adding goals to his game. However, it is clear while Martial's all-round game is good, his finishing and work-rate is decent at best.
Rashford hasn't got the instincts to be a number 9, the way he runs in straight lines and gets caught offside so frequently because he isn't timing or bending his runs is a concern. He also frustrates me as he has the ability to beat 2-3 players but then runs into a deadend and pointlessly give away the ball, so him beating 2-3 players counts for nothing.
Play one of the two on the LW and they will still get you at least 15-20 goals per season. Play a proper number 9 like a Halaand, who can get you around 30 goals and you will just be confident in taking his chances. Then we need to address the RW issue, we need someone with pace and trickery and has goals and assists in them. Here is me hoping Diallo is the answer!
A front 3 of Rashford/Martial, Halaand and Diallo (providing he works out), gives us proper balance, will cause opposition defences problems and with them still years away from their peaks, will only get better!
Rashford hasn't got the instincts to be a number 9, the way he runs in straight lines and gets caught offside so frequently because he isn't timing or bending his runs is a concern. He also frustrates me as he has the ability to beat 2-3 players but then runs into a deadend and pointlessly give away the ball, so him beating 2-3 players counts for nothing.
Play one of the two on the LW and they will still get you at least 15-20 goals per season. Play a proper number 9 like a Halaand, who can get you around 30 goals and you will just be confident in taking his chances. Then we need to address the RW issue, we need someone with pace and trickery and has goals and assists in them. Here is me hoping Diallo is the answer!
A front 3 of Rashford/Martial, Halaand and Diallo (providing he works out), gives us proper balance, will cause opposition defences problems and with them still years away from their peaks, will only get better!
Rashford is a problem? 
Some people around are impossible to please. Martial is most definitely an issue but including Rashford in the discussion is bizarre to say the least. His G/A is right up there with anyone else in Europe this season. Season finished late last year and the squad started this season with no pre season. If you think that's not going to affect them then you really don't know much about conditioning in pro sports. I do remember Rashford sprinting back in the last minute of extra time last night, literally the whole fecking pitch. A poster called him lazy, just feck right off to be honest.
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Some people around are impossible to please. Martial is most definitely an issue but including Rashford in the discussion is bizarre to say the least. His G/A is right up there with anyone else in Europe this season. Season finished late last year and the squad started this season with no pre season. If you think that's not going to affect them then you really don't know much about conditioning in pro sports. I do remember Rashford sprinting back in the last minute of extra time last night, literally the whole fecking pitch. A poster called him lazy, just feck right off to be honest.Edit:
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Yeahh but but but.... he doesnt meet the eye test and runs into players.Rashford is a problem?
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I have not seen 1 winger this season who has had 100% dribble accuracy.
What I have seen though is a player who will try try try, give his all for the team and even when things are not going well, come up with moments in games to influence them.
PSG away
Southampton away
Leipzig home
West Ham away
Wolves Home
Martial isn't very good. And Rashford is frustrating when he always takes the extra touch or misses good chances BUT he's always trying, running behind players, taking them on. So I'm fine with Rashford generally, just we can't afford to have both him and Martial as its just 2 players inconsistent in making their stamp on any given game. I'd keep Rashford because he keeps plugging away and is generally more proactive in his play, he takes a lot more risks.
Neither are good enough as strikers, but Rashford is more than good enough on the left side cutting in. He's still a young player and that means poor decisions are made sometimes, but his good moments outweigh the bad quite easily. He's fast, he beats people, he scores goals and most importantly he runs his socks off.
Martial is a problem though and needs replacing with a proper #9. A player who lives and breathes goals. When Cavani scores you can see in his face what it means to him even if it's the 4th goal in a 4-0, his passion for scoring is obvious as is his determination to go and get goals. He makes things happen for himself and busts a gut to get into the right positions at the right time. Martial cruises around as if he expects the goals to come to him. He doesn't do enough to make things happen which hurts both his own goalscoring record but also the team.
There is no room for passengers in today's game. Everyone has to do their job with and without the ball. The press and counter is a single cohesive effort and if one person doesn't do it, the whole thing falls apart.
Martial is a problem though and needs replacing with a proper #9. A player who lives and breathes goals. When Cavani scores you can see in his face what it means to him even if it's the 4th goal in a 4-0, his passion for scoring is obvious as is his determination to go and get goals. He makes things happen for himself and busts a gut to get into the right positions at the right time. Martial cruises around as if he expects the goals to come to him. He doesn't do enough to make things happen which hurts both his own goalscoring record but also the team.
There is no room for passengers in today's game. Everyone has to do their job with and without the ball. The press and counter is a single cohesive effort and if one person doesn't do it, the whole thing falls apart.
I don't really understand the Rashford's bottom level is worse than Martial's talk, that's nonsense to me. When Martial is bad he might as well not exist. Rashford at his worst is still trying stuff it just doesn't come off making him extremely frustrating to watch.
If you're Greenwood and you're this entitled about "your" minutes, you try harder to be useful when you get on the pitch in a position more suited to you at this point in your development.
He's been poor for a few games now, but the criticism over the season is laughable. He's having a better season than Mane and Sterling, the two best players in his position in the league. Also not at all far off Grealish, who's just about outperforming him for the first time in their careers and suddenly seems to be twice the player in the Redcafe hivemind.Rashford is a problem?
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I'm also quite sure the lack of pressing everyone here thinks is "lazy" is actually following the manager's instructions to draw teams higher up the pitch.
Good thing he has better advisors than someone like you. When you are 18 you are not entitled to play no 9 for Manutd. It has to be earnt. The games he has played as a 9 he has not been any better than Martial.
Which player is moved across the front line the most out of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, and Cavani? The answer is Rashford. Why? Because he is the most versatile forward player we have. Granted he is not as strong at CF and RW as he is at LW but he's obviously stronger at RW when Martial has to be moved from CF to LW because Cavani is on the pitch.
When Martial is booted from CF, his next position is LW. After that it's the bench.
Yes, all of the above do roam the front line during a match but the majority of their play is in their natural positions.
The clear answer is to sign a natural RW so we don't have to move players around to accommodate another position when someone is rotated or subbed off.
Martial is the problem with our forward positions and rotation. He's terribly out of form and does not appear to be playing back into form anytime soon.
The overplaying of Rashford is getting to him. Back injury, which we don't even know if he's fully recovered or it could be giving him problems. Maybe he's playing with pain.
Cavani might have another season with us, two at most. We need a proper CF and RW and neither are currently at the club.
When Martial is booted from CF, his next position is LW. After that it's the bench.
Yes, all of the above do roam the front line during a match but the majority of their play is in their natural positions.
The clear answer is to sign a natural RW so we don't have to move players around to accommodate another position when someone is rotated or subbed off.
Martial is the problem with our forward positions and rotation. He's terribly out of form and does not appear to be playing back into form anytime soon.
The overplaying of Rashford is getting to him. Back injury, which we don't even know if he's fully recovered or it could be giving him problems. Maybe he's playing with pain.
Cavani might have another season with us, two at most. We need a proper CF and RW and neither are currently at the club.
Exactly. Seems this is being lost in all the reactionary group-think.
He's also scored as many goals as Cavani. What do the Cavani fan boys make of that?
I’d say watch 5 mins of Cavani and tell me you’d rather Martial?
At the moment he has the look of a player who is physically uncomfortable. In those times playing is more like a chore and it shows in your performances.
Is there Cavani fanboys or just people who are rational thinkers and can tell quite easily one is a lot better than the other. The childish fan boy nature of football fandom these days is embarrassing.
I still think our choice of managers have and are holding back the full potential of many of our players and that doubt will remain for me until I see them playing for a top quality attack minded manager or even a top quality manager in general.
For me it's our style of play that's hindering the players. But the style of play is based on who we have in the team/squad.
We are pretty much a counter attacking team, look at some rashfords goals and you see it's a quick break from our own half. Also seems to be the instruction for our front players to stay forward.
The problem is that in MF we have work horses who don't have the subtle passing forward if likes of keane or scholes.
It was interesting to see with DVB yesterday how many times he was in and around the opposition box and making little runs but no one passed to him. Something I have felt cavani suffers from too. Donny was disappointing over all for me. Think he should have taken his opportunity with a more energetic display. But seemed to hide for most of the game. Bar in the 18 yard box
With teams sitting back you need subtle passes into pockets of space that players are willing to get into. For me Mata is the one who would be the one who sees and does this but he brings his own issues into our current squad.
People are calling for Haaland, and I rate him as a player, but unless we change our style and get some players who can feed our strikers in the opposition half it's going to be like Cavani currently, lots of energy, lots of runs but not getting the ball very often
We are pretty much a counter attacking team, look at some rashfords goals and you see it's a quick break from our own half. Also seems to be the instruction for our front players to stay forward.
The problem is that in MF we have work horses who don't have the subtle passing forward if likes of keane or scholes.
It was interesting to see with DVB yesterday how many times he was in and around the opposition box and making little runs but no one passed to him. Something I have felt cavani suffers from too. Donny was disappointing over all for me. Think he should have taken his opportunity with a more energetic display. But seemed to hide for most of the game. Bar in the 18 yard box
With teams sitting back you need subtle passes into pockets of space that players are willing to get into. For me Mata is the one who would be the one who sees and does this but he brings his own issues into our current squad.
People are calling for Haaland, and I rate him as a player, but unless we change our style and get some players who can feed our strikers in the opposition half it's going to be like Cavani currently, lots of energy, lots of runs but not getting the ball very often
No idea what the problem is but Rashford seems to be finished after 60 minutes, maybe he needs a few games break.
Martial just doesn't have that killer instinct, never has and at 25 probably never will have, seeing Cavani just highlights this, Martial is a guppy when we need a shark - we need a striker who buries chances when we're 1 or 2 nil up, his lack of appetite for goals has cost us games this season.
Martial just doesn't have that killer instinct, never has and at 25 probably never will have, seeing Cavani just highlights this, Martial is a guppy when we need a shark - we need a striker who buries chances when we're 1 or 2 nil up, his lack of appetite for goals has cost us games this season.
That's my issue with our fans. A player being frustrating while doing something, is better than one who does nothing. Even if he is wasteful, Rashford will still manufacture chances and shots. Like Nani, he can have an off day where those chances and shots are terrible, but at the end of the day, they are still contributions. Martial and Mata consistently offer nothing. They can go a handful of games barely making any drives or incisive passes. Martial used to get away with that when he was constantly on the left flank, hiding then making one or two run bursts after a few games, but now that he's been the focal point, his lack of usefulness has been on full display.
I hate the disrespect that Rashy gets by our fans. He is still young, has had moments of absolute brilliance and although this season his end product has looked bad at times, he is still up there with the best in Europe.
Who said he's entitled? The lad needs minutes as a striker to grow that's all if he can't even get them when our other strikers (bar Cavani) are in god awful form then he'd be right to worry.
He should be rotated with Cavani.
Completely agree
Both still young enough to stand by them and watch them develop.
Of course I'd take Haaland as well if the opportunity arose
Of course I'd take Haaland as well if the opportunity arose
both clearly struggling for form
This is one of those things that loads of people end up saying without any real logic behind it. Just like how having Ibrahimovic and Lukaku was supposedly harmful for Rashford's development when he was a kid (never mind that he played in virtually every game across those three seasons even when he was rubbish)
Greenwood is a kid who's not ready to play as a striker, which has been shown by him disappearing the few times he's been given a go there, mostly because he can't yet play with his back to goal (neither can Rashford) and teams have figured out how to crowd him out and nullify his shooting threat. His overall play over the season has been poor (getting better lately, luckily), and he's showing every sign of reverting to the norm for a teenager after massively overperforming last year. I think Martial even in this form is still a better option than him, and the manager obviously does too.
He's playing where he should be at this point, and he's getting loads of game time under a manager who's handled him perfectly so far. He has nothing to worry about.
Cavani has played far far far fewer minutes though.
I'd do the same.
Is Rashford being too distracted by his off-field activities? His head just doesn't seem to be in it, apart from the odd flash like last night for the assist.
No, he just needs to play first team football to grow. Martial got given the striker last season and did well, this season he is poor.
Greenwood was poor in the first half of the season too btw. He did actually get chances up front in a few games and was poor.
We have no RW, Greenwood is the best in that position at the moment. He isnt't worried because he knows he is only 18 and he still has alot of improving to do.
Its not like he is 23/24 and not playing as a ST.. you are a bit reactionary tbh
On paper, and based on the previous season, the expectation was for Martial to kick on and retain the striker spot and become more prolific, with Rashford to his left doing the business and Bruno providing & creating, and for Cavani to provide "quality cover" from the bench when needed.
However, this is really a very bad season for Martial so far, he looks very different from the player we saw last year and its quite worrying now, he was terrible last night, lucky for us Cavani is in good form and scoring goals and doing the business.
something is not right with Martial this season, he seems very different and he needs to recover ASAP, otherwise, he should leave as for now he is not good enough.
However, this is really a very bad season for Martial so far, he looks very different from the player we saw last year and its quite worrying now, he was terrible last night, lucky for us Cavani is in good form and scoring goals and doing the business.
something is not right with Martial this season, he seems very different and he needs to recover ASAP, otherwise, he should leave as for now he is not good enough.
I didn't want to believe it had anything to do with Cavani coming in, but is it a coincidence that the same happened when we signed Ibra? Or am I simply looking for a more complicated explanation, when it might just simply be this is Martial, all the talent in the world, but will never truly apply it properly to be the consistent number 9 for a top team. He'll never make it if he can't deal with competition either.
Just putting this here.
I think Rashford is just playing a bit too much. His head goes down sometimes.
I feel like Rashford is more down to too much responsibility, now that Martial's had a pretty bad season. Not having a proper RW/RF is also bringing more pressure. Cavani has been a blessing in that department. I've always felt Rashford could be our Robben, in the sense of being the more direct and maybe less involved in link-up player on a front 3. For that to work we need a RW like Ribery (to continue that comparison), who's more involved in build-up, good eye for an assist while still being a good finisher. This of course are comparisons to some of the best players of their generation, but I believe Rashford can reach those heights. He needs a good setup though.
The problem as I see it is quite simple Martial needs to realise he is not Pele or Ronaldo and knuckle down and get stuck in. Rashford not knocking all the great work he has done off the field , needs to realise you cannot be a part-time footballer.
Where do you get that Martial thinks he's Pele or Ronaldo? If anyone does that it's Rashy.
Ok I will rephrase what I said about Martial, The bottom line is he is lazy and thinks he is a lot better player than he actually is.He creates a bit of magic here and there but does not have the right mindset to be playing for us.
What does this even mean?
Do you know something that suggests he's not putting in "full-time" levels of effort towards football?
Exactly. The players that go home from training and play call of duty for 6 hours a day (and i'm sure a fair few do) aren't considered part time footballers.
Here is a classic example of using a stat without watching a game for 90 mins.