Oh definitely, but I haven't even seen nearly enough of him to think he's better than Rio anyway.
My point was just that if you asked who was the best English defender most people would say Bobby Moore
Redcafe Champions League Draft Final! - Theon v Gio
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
My point was just that if you asked who was the best English defender most people would say Bobby Moore
It's irrelevant, proven Rio-Vidic > imaginary Thiago Silva-Nesta, no case needed.
He drafted very well with regards to the core and future-proofing, I think you actually drafted best in terms of pulling off a core which never in my wildest dream would I expect to get out of a first draft. That midfield diamond you still have and with the right fullback pair, it's incredible you added Ronaldo, Sheva, Maldini and Nesta and still didn't win it.Ah well done Gio!
I think you drafted the best out of anybody in the original game so you're a worthy winner
It is relevant though because I agree with you Rio/Vidic > Thiago/Nesta (just) also it wasn't imaginary as they were quite exceptional together in 2010 IIRC when Milan won Serie A, Nesta was like 35/36
What I said though is that Ferdinand isn't as good as Nesta and in that greatest of all time tier with Baresi, Scirea, Nesta etc which I think is absolutely true.
Cheers man, I was pleased with the diamond because I love watching that formation and Milan team so it was good to pull it off. In the end I couldn't compete with Gio's unreal front line.
I'm never going for a diamond again though, pain in the arse to try and get right. In the end I had to draft players slightly earlier than they should have been just to make sure I got them, because their is very specific players you need to pull it off
Next time it's just going to be a normal 4-2-3-1 I reckon!
Nesta and Silva have played together though. It's not imaginary.
True about Thiago-Nesta, I was thinking about prime Nesta throughout and completely overlooked they did eventually partner. Ferdinand isn't far behind any of those and not far enough that the right partner wouldn't make up for the difference. It's no slight on Rio nor something to hold against him to say he is not in the Top5 but probably Top 10.
You should have won this though. I remember your rants about that Milan side and wingers not being needed and you had the opportunity to change fantasy draft history here by having a winning diamond. I bet half of us hadn't even voted for a diamond ever before. I think everyone recognises how much harder it is to pull off than going for 4-2-3-1 and fitting people as they come along. Your inner muppet took over though, you know it.
Had Sheva started you would have won this.
Top 10 CBs of all time? I think he's the best of his generation after Nesta but I doubt he'd get into top 10 of all time.
If not there, he wouldn't be far off. Who would be your 10 ahead of him?
Anto you wum. Kick him while he's down.
It's called learning. The moment he picked Xavi the writing was on the wall he would do something silly like that, the man can't help himself. He knows it too.
Scirea, Baresi, Figueroa, Passerella, Nesta, Kohler, Sammer, Bergomi, Santamaria, Moore off the top of my head.
Not sure about Sammer being the better CB. Same with Moore and Bergomi. There's also the issue of what you want from a CB, I consider the Rio type far more important to have and get right than the Kohler type. Scirea is one where you would want to see what the rest of the defensive setup looks like, which holds for others like Beckenbauer as well. Santamaria takes you into dodgy grounds as he didn't paly in a CB pair for starters. Similar issue with those playing WM, would you say Nasazzi and Da Guia? They weren't exactly CBs...
Lots of ifs and buts which could be open for debate there, but the point is as a classic CB in a back four Rio fits in effortlessly. He is not Top 5 CB, nor Top 10 defender, but I would sure have him at the latter end of a Top 10 of CBs.
I think we mancs tend to overrate Rio a bit, no offense to anyone. As much as I love him for doing what he has done, I reckon all those players would be a better CB than Rio in the classic back 4 and that's no slight on Rio whatsoever. If you really want someone you have seen play in a proper back 4 you can look at last 25-30 odd years in leagues like Serie A which had some of the terrific defenders in Europe who hardly got much recognition and their clubs' fans would rate them as highly as we rate Rio, it is just natural. You'd ask a Liverpool fan and he'd rate Hyypia over Rio and an Arsenal fan would rate Campbell over Rio. In the end as good as he was and I absolutely love him, would always love to him in my team, just that I think there are players who either have better skillset or a larger skillset or a lot tougher mentally to be called better.
Good game Theon. In the face of 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3s, it took bollocks to stick to the narrow formation, be it the diamond or the Christmas tree, much like your classic 4-4-2 in the Premiership draft. In terms of starting Shevchenko, I think it would've made things a lot closer, albeit the arguments I'd have put forward would've been much the same.
Forced to choose, I'd take Nesta over Ferdinand. But there is not a lot in their top level. As for the rest of the list, it's always hard to judge defensive players from previous eras because we tend to judge them on the number of mistakes they make, and you really need to watch them every week to get a feel for just how solid they are. But for those of the last 25 years, Nesta and Kohler ahead (albeit marginal), Ferdinand a better and truer defender than Sammer, and I love Bergomi but reckon he's a tiny bit below Rio.
I agree with Gio on the older players, too hard to compare really
Of the recent players I would have Cannavaro, Stam, Desailly at least as good as Rio, probably a few more that I am missing
Edit - Sammer, McGrath, Bergomi, Blanc
The latter is really underrated and if you said to the average united fan that Blanc was as good as Rio you would get laughed at, but at their peaks there surely wasn't much in them
Of the recent players I would have Cannavaro, Stam, Desailly at least as good as Rio, probably a few more that I am missing
Edit - Sammer, McGrath, Bergomi, Blanc
The latter is really underrated and if you said to the average united fan that Blanc was as good as Rio you would get laughed at, but at their peaks there surely wasn't much in them
Congrats, Gio.
And the amount of votes on every game reflects a good tournament also.
And the amount of votes on every game reflects a good tournament also.
Ayee great turnout by the voters, cheers for voting everyone
Good calls in Blanc and McGrath. I'd say it is clear Rio doesn't stand out there on a league of his own like Baresi does, but after the top 4-5 it's all very muddy and based on personal preference.
I rate ball-playing, reading of the game and organising of a defence very highly, but then there is steel, physical/aerial dominance, marking someone like a rash, etc. Ideally you want both though. Rio stands out at the former but was no mug on the others, although with Vidic alongside him any weakness would have stayed hidden. In fact, we always suffered when either of them was out, so it could probably be argued he is not as complete as others listed. Feels harsh, but may be true.
Rio's heading was 'shit'. Two of my most memorable ones are Messi's and Crespo's in CL. The fecker just ball watching when the cross came in.
Just for you Cutch, Romario comes on to stretch the play in the closing minutes with Theon playing high and pushing forward. Fabregas off. Vieira drops off alongside Mauro Silva to anchor the midfield and shut off the options for Iniesta and Pirlo.
my vote is now warranted. Well done Gio. Deserved victory. Unlucky Theon, great effort. Well done on all the organising too, was good fun
You are making Sammer look like a liability who wasn't a "true" defender but just played there and won a Ballon D'or playing there because he could rally his troops and nothing more. He was a kickass player, better on the ball than Rio which was one of Rio's biggest selling points, also better at reading the game and largely better at organizing his men.
As I said you and anto in the last one won the drafts here largely because this is a United forum and Rio's rated really highly, naturally. I've been a few other forums to play drafts, and they had all neutrals with few who have watched football for decades and I've never really seen Rio being rated among the best of all time. I wouldn't disagree much even though I've tried to watch as much footage and read as much as I can on the past greats to have somesort of comparison. It is fair really, I can't insist more on the fact that I absolutely love him and in my time watching football I've not seen many perform better than he did at his prime which in itself is a huge compliment and probably the biggest one, being the best of your era is what you can truly claim to be as everything's played on level grounds while all time comparisons are usually subjective and turn silly with so many changes and differences. But in the end I'd say it is quite overrating him to call him worthy of being in the top 10 of all time. Obviously his lack of international success goes some way when comparing with the likes of Moore who would have that extra rep due to that, but then I'd like to see someone who has seen both Moore and Rio live and say Rio has been better, I haven't yet.
Peterstorey generally gives off that impression, and I think he's seen both live.
I think this is spot on regarding Rio, he is blatantly rated here far higher than the majority of places.
I think if you went out the Caf and said he was better than someone like Cannavaro or Stam most would disagree
Less sure on the Moore argument because he was such an older player that you can't compare. He could well have been better than Moore for all we really know, but he definitely wasn't better than Nesta - playing in similar eras makes it so much easier to judge.
Indeed. Seen both, rates Rio higher, not a United fan. Moore may have London rivalries against him, mind.
Aldo, I do see your point though. As I said, if you leave out the gymnastics of assessing pre-70s players, there's a solid Top 5 with Baresi, Scirea, Figueroa, Passarella and Nesta. Then there are probably ~15 players that complete the top 20 and all have a claim to be in the Top 10 subject to what your preferences are. I wouldn't have Montero in a Top 10 but probably in that group of 15. 95% of the caf would disagree though. Same holds for whether Rio makes it to the Top 10 or ends up 15, or 20. Now Rio-Vidic -which is how the discussion started-... go find ten better pairs than that.
I try not be biased and as soon as the likes of Irwin, Cantona and co begin to get overrated I'm the first to step in, but I genuinely think Nesta aside, Ferdinand in his peak is the best centre half of the last 15 years i have seen, simple as that
In the last 15 years? I rate Stam (and Campbell for a season or two) as better than Rio.