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Redcafe Sheep Draft 1st Semi Final - Edgar Allan Pillow vs Gio

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

antohan

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Yeah. Simeone's performance is somehow escape my memory, but left the impression of just another dirty player. While, imho, Cambiasso is more into a mobile Carrick with less passing range, contrary to the popular opinion of him as a mere hacking DM.

I actually prefer EAP's early formation with Dessaily - Ballack - Summer as midfield trio + Rui Costa. I think those midfield would dominate any team left in the semi-final. But seems like people don't rate Blanco much, thus EAP succumb to the peer pressure ;)
And you do? I actually rate Branco, and can spell it ;) but Maldini is better suited to deal with Nedved; Desailly is better suited than Paolo to deal with Vieri; Sammer is better suited than Desailly to do the limited dropping into a three needed and focusing on starting moves from deep and shutting down Hagi or anyone marauding around central areas...

And Cambiasso actually is a more fitting CM option for either central spot in a diamond than Sammer, Desailly or Ballack himself. Look at any side playing a midfield diamond successfully and the CMs are a lot more like him than the others. They have to go beyond being central midfielders and be competent at supporting the fullbacks both in attacking and defensive phases, as is the case here with Amoros being in trouble otherwise.
 
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Isotope

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And you do? I actually rate Branco, and can spell it ;) but Maldini is better suited to deal with Nedved; Desailly is better suited than Paolo to deal with Vieri; Sammer is better suited than Desailly to do the limited dropping into a three needed and focusing on starting moves from deep and shutting down Hagi or anyone marauding around central areas... And Cambiasso actually is a more fitting CM option for either central spot in a diamond than Sammer, Desailly or Ballack himself. Look at any side playing a midfield diamond successfully and the CMs are a lot more like him than the others.
Haha..

I think with additional midfielder dropping deep, winger can skin the fullback as many as they want (which rarely happened in top game), but its effectiveness still depend on those in the box. And in balance, if fullback attacking force is big (in this case, Branco > Maldini), the onus is on the other team to defend. So, imho, the overall game is mattered more than individual player in position A vs in position X.

And defending wise, Desailly is better than Summer. While Summer-Ballack would be more dominant than Cambiasso-Ballack.

Although, I can also understand having Desailly-Maldini in defence, would make EAP's more solid. And Summer is back to his DM/CB position.
 

antohan

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Haha..

I think with additional midfielder dropping deep, winger can skin the fullback as many as they want (which rarely happened in top game), but its effectiveness still depend on those in the box. And in balance, if fullback attacking force is big (in this case, Branco > Maldini), the onus is on the other team to defend. So, imho, the overall game is mattered more than individual player in position A vs in position X.
And that's what convinced me EAP had to switch. I wasn't too fussed abotu Nedved crossing every now and then, it's absolutely fine and to be expected to happen. Now, with Vieri int he box, surely you would want Desailly there?

And defending wise, Desailly is better than Summer. While Summer-Ballack would be more dominant than Cambiasso-Ballack.
How so? In terms of angry faces? It's a shame Cambiasso didn't get taken to WC 2010, a travesty in fact, would probably be seen in a different light today. Or not, Argentina would have been a far better side but everyone would rave about Messi.
 

Malva

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If anything I would have rather seen Cambiasso play as a midfielder. He's one of the best holding midfielders that I've ever seen, one of the best midfielders around in his peak.

From what I recall when he was playing in the last game he wasn't rated highly. I don't remember the exact quotes though. He was never part of the brand of "open football" but rather smart, team-oriented football. Looking at the base of EAP's team, it would be a perfect fit. One of those type of players where if you don't rate him highly, you haven't seen him play...period
not even caring about relevancy to the draft, i love that you said this and 100% agree. cambiasso is so overlooked in history, and his ability as a player, and i have no clue why. he's an all time great as a holding midfielder, and his intelligence and penetrative ability from anchoring positions is pretty much unique.
 

Gio

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Think the change helps to stem the tide to some extent, but given Cambiasso and Ballack are on their wrong sides (for defensive reasons) it's hard to envisage either of them making telling attacking contributions. Not that either of them were terrible on their weaker foot, but it's key in a diamond or 4-3-1-2 to strike the perfect balance on the sides of midfield. Given EAP is losing, I'm not sure this change is going to provide the necessary attacking momentum to get goals back.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Given EAP is losing, I'm not sure this change is going to provide the necessary attacking momentum to get goals back.
:lol: Ouch mate, that hurts! Though I harbour hopes of CL '99 esque comeback, it was anyway a good game. Cheers!

In reply, they do not have to do anything special here. Provide a hand if your fullbacks venture out too far. Keep Simeone and Davids occupied when I attack. On the whole just keep the flow moving. Nothing that a side change will affect!
 

Brwned

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I think one thing that's been overlooked here is whether Gio possesses the necessary goal threat to win this tight game. If we're looking at Rivaldo as a left-sided player then he's very much a 1 in 3 goalscorer - as you can see from his 4 goals in 12 games for Brazil in 1998 playing in that role and 12 goals in 31 league games for Barcelona in 99-00 playing in that role. Nedved was somewhere between a 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 throughout his career, with him scoring more than 1 in 3 just once in his career (13 goals in 37 games for Lazio in 97-98) and matching 1 in 3 just once (with 12 goals in 36 games in 06-07 when Juve were in Serie B). Hagi in the late '80s had a terrific record for Steaua Bucharest (88 in 118 games) but when he played with other big stars in Madrid (20 goals in 84 games) or Barcelona (11 goals in 51 games) that goal threat dropped to an even lower level than Nedved's.

Realistically what you've got there is Vieri as the only regular scorer and then the three attacking midfielder behind him struggling to muster up a goal between them. Bare in mind that Vieiri is up against Desailly and Sanchis, a very similar partnership to the Desailly-Blanc duo that stopped an in-form Vieri in '98 from getting a sniff at goal in that QF. Desailly's physicality is a perfect match for Vieri here as he showed in that QF and with his goal threat minimised here, you have to wonder where the goals are coming from.

On the other hand you have two Ballon d'Or winners up top, one who scored over 1000 goals and the other who consistently scored more than 1 in 2 in the toughest league defensively in the last two decades.
 

Gio

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Plenty of goal threat IMO:

Christian Vieri - 29 in 32 at Atletico; 46 in 48 in early 2000s Serie A
Rivaldo - 135 goals for Barcelona/Brazil in his best four seasons
Pavel Nedved - a 1 in 3/4 goalscorer from midfield; 28 in 94 for Czech Rep
Gheorghe Hagi - 275 goals during his career, including 34 in 33, 29 in 39, 37 in 39 in Romania and 16 in 50 at Real in 1991/92
Andreas Brehme - 11 in 33 for Kaiserslautern in 1984/85; 6 in 32 for Inter in 1989/90; 3 goals at the World Cup Semi stage or further in 1986 and 1990!
Diego Simeone - 12 in 37 as the box-to-box engine behind Atletico's La Liga winning team
 

Theon

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Tough one this - I like the change from EAP/Brwned
 

Balu

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I feel a bit sick to vote against the Brehme, Kohler, Davids, Rivaldo left side, but I really like the change in EAP's team, I can see him cotaining Gio's attack very well, while the Costa, Baggio, Romario combination is bound to score at least once. It's just too good. 2-1 EAP often enough to earn my vote, imo.
 

Theon

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I'll probably vote at some stage man, it is tough though and I'll need to think about it. I always like Gio's sides.

I do like that you've gone for a diamond though, always prefer more creative formations in these drafts which is why we went for the false 9 side ourselves. I think you've pulled the diamond off as well.

Maldini on the left was a great change, possibly the only left back in the draft who can own that flank without support from a wideman ahead of him - in fact, with Bergomi at right back I'm not seeing too many 2 vs 1's on Maldini (which he could probably cope with anyway) so all in all I think Gio could be shut out there.

I would like to see more on Sammer's role - Brwned said I underrated him, so would be good to hear some more about him here.
 

Thisistheone

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I'm also struggling with who to vote for here. Gio's team is excellent, but i really like Edgar's side.

The change was a good one. I'm leaning towards Edgar.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
And you do? I actually rate Branco, and can spell it ;) but Maldini is better suited to deal with Nedved; Desailly is better suited than Paolo to deal with Vieri; Sammer is better suited than Desailly to do the limited dropping into a three needed and focusing on starting moves from deep and shutting down Hagi or anyone marauding around central areas...

And Cambiasso actually is a more fitting CM option for either central spot in a diamond than Sammer, Desailly or Ballack himself. Look at any side playing a midfield diamond successfully and the CMs are a lot more like him than the others. They have to go beyond being central midfielders and be competent at supporting the fullbacks both in attacking and defensive phases, as is the case here with Amoros being in trouble otherwise.
The substitution sealed my vote for EAP. He looks much better placed to contain Gio's main threats and transition to attack now.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I would like to see more on Sammer's role - Brwned said I underrated him, so would be good to hear some more about him here.
Ballon d'Or winner. The 2nd defender to win after Beckenbauer. Started off as a striker, moved to midfield and won the league, then ended up further back as a libero where he excelled evoking comparisons to Beckenbauer and consdered his heir. Aggressive, foul mouthed and intensely competitive, a natural leader on pitch. Being a liberp, he is highly competant to move between sweeper, CB and DM as needed in the game. Great composure, can orchester attacks from the deep end. Can also go on his trademark runs, like his winning goal against Czechs. Simply put, one of the top handful in his position.

He will be marshalling Hagi here. As Gio indicated that Hagi will be operating deeper to link up midfield, Sammer has the operating freedom and intellignece to either follow Hagi out or stay back to fend against Rivaldo. ( As Maldini is there to handle Nedved). With Sanchis and Desailly riding herd on Vieri, his role will pivot in amkaing a already good defence, simply great.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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The substitution sealed my vote for EAP. He looks much better placed to contain Gio's main threats and transition to attack now.
A main point I was harping about yesterday. Davids/Simeone while great players are not that creative and do not contribute offensively as much as Ballack/Cambiasso will do. His defenders also lack the extra bit at playing ball out like Maldini/Sammer.

So without a player to initiate and orchester attacks from deep, he needs to depend on fullbacks to provide the crucial linkup. But then even here, his tactics call for tucked in tight defence to defend against my attack. Bergomi will tuck in and only Brehme is eligible to provide that link. And with Cambiasso partolling that side, not that effective, imo.
 

Gio

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I'll probably vote at some stage man, it is tough though and I'll need to think about it. I always like Gio's sides.

I do like that you've gone for a diamond though, always prefer more creative formations in these drafts which is why we went for the false 9 side ourselves. I think you've pulled the diamond off as well.

Maldini on the left was a great change, possibly the only left back in the draft who can own that flank without support from a wideman ahead of him - in fact, with Bergomi at right back I'm not seeing too many 2 vs 1's on Maldini (which he could probably cope with anyway) so all in all I think Gio could be shut out there.

I would like to see more on Sammer's role - Brwned said I underrated him, so would be good to hear some more about him here.
Problem being most of those changes were made after we ran into an early lead. It's a good diamond, not as tasty as your own, but I'm not convinced it's got the right balance to get back into the match.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I'll probably vote at some stage man, it is tough though and I'll need to think about it. I always like Gio's sides.

I do like that you've gone for a diamond though, always prefer more creative formations in these drafts which is why we went for the false 9 side ourselves. I think you've pulled the diamond off as well.

Maldini on the left was a great change, possibly the only left back in the draft who can own that flank without support from a wideman ahead of him - in fact, with Bergomi at right back I'm not seeing too many 2 vs 1's on Maldini (which he could probably cope with anyway) so all in all I think Gio could be shut out there.

I would like to see more on Sammer's role - Brwned said I underrated him, so would be good to hear some more about him here.
I rarely seem to vote against Gio either. I like how he constructs his teams and he sells them well. I think EAP/Brwned have shaded it here though.

As regards Sammer, this video somewhat expresses how I remember him playing the libero role - breaking forward with driving runs and one-twos to take shots, dropping right back into defence as needed to anticipate threats (1:27 ish), and providing a strong physical presence in the midfield battle (2:15ish).

 

Gio

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@Gio well done mate, that was a cracking game. All the best in finals.

@Brwned thanks mate. Your behind the scene efforts made my draft debut quite nice. Don't think I would have made it this far on my own!
Yeah that was a great game. I pretty much buggered off at 12-8 and came back with 5 minutes to play and the scores in the balance at 12-11. Nervy finish that!
 

Theon

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As regards Sammer, this video somewhat expresses how I remember him playing the libero role - breaking forward with driving runs and one-twos to take shots, dropping right back into defence as needed to anticipate threats (1:27 ish), and providing a strong physical presence in the midfield battle (2:15ish).
Great video, thanks man. Tough one to really get across on a formation picture.
 

Balu

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I would like to see more on Sammer's role - Brwned said I underrated him, so would be good to hear some more about him here.
Sammer's peak is often underrated, which is easily explained. It was brutally cut short by an infection after a knee injury, that forced him to retire so early. I think he played his last league game with 29, which is probably the age when players like him usually start to peak, because experience is so important. A lot is already said about his style on the pitch and you probably saw at least a few of his games, so I try to go a bit further to explain his influence on the pitch, because that's a key part of why he stood out. You mentioned in the draft thread, that the Ballon d'Or win doesn't mean a lot, because Cannavaro won it as well. The difference between Cannavaro and the other 2 defenders, who won it, is, that they were much more than defenders. They were the brains behind the team, the leaders who pushed the team forward, the ones who took over when games were on the line, putting fires out in defense, but also contributing in attack. No one really questioned Sammer winning it back then the way Cannavaro was questioned, because he was clearly the most influential player for a brilliant club side and a Euro winning nationalteam and not only one who showed heroics for a few games. He easily outperformed Matthäus in that libero role. Post injury libero Matthäus was of course not as great as pre injury box to box Matthäus, but he was still quality, good enough to have the best Bayern side since the 70's built around him at that time.

His career after the retirement probably shows how brilliant his understanding of the game was, and why he excelled so early in that libero role. Only 2 years after his retirement, Dortmund completely fell apart. They were fighting against relegation in 1999/00. Udo Lattek came back to save the club with Sammer as assistent manager, they finished 11th in the league. The next season, Sammer became the manager, only 33 years old. The club finished 3rd and one year later he became the youngest manager to win the Bundesliga title. The club also made it to the UEFA cup final, beating Milan 4:0 at home in the semifinals. They were unlucky to loose the final, Jürgen Kohler was sent off after 30 minutes in his last ever game, Dortmund conceded twice shortly after the red card, but almost turned the game around with 10 men, loosing 2-3 in the end. He then went on to become an important figure in the rebuilding of the youth academies in Germany when he worked as director of football for the German FA and is now an important piece at Bayern, part of the managing board and director of football. He took over after the team won the 2nd place treble and his mentality was important in turning that horrible season into the ultimate success only one year later.

All that tells a story about him, imo, a story about what could have been. There's no doubt in my mind, that he would have been an alltime great defender, easily the best German defender since Beckenbauer, if he had the chance to finish his career. He had the right mentality to push on, the ultimate football intelligence, tactical understanding, awareness of what's happening around him. He used all that to achieve brilliant things as a manager/director of football for Dortmund, Germany and Bayern. It doesn't make up for what we missed out on his playing career though. His peak years between 93 and 97 were already outstanding, but they should have been only the beginning.

@Edgar Allan Pillow Sorry, that I didn't find the time to write that love letter earlier, maybe it would have helped you to win the game ;).
 
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Theon

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Awesome post Balu :)

Edgar - Sorry man, I just couldn't decide in this one. You came up against a great side, that left flank of Gio's is as good as it gets here. I think Gio will be unstoppable now actually, if we get through I don't have much hope for the final.

What would you have done in reinforcements Edgar, if you got through to the final?
 

Balu

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I already wanted to write that during my game (and a few more posts like that about some of the German players in my team), but I was forced to defend my tactics all the time, because Alaba and Bale were destroying Reuter/Kohler/Sammer in the beginning, followed up by Redondo running riot against Kroos and Effenberg :mad:. Should have just ignored all that and told stories.
 

Theon

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I already wanted to write that during my game (and a few more posts like that about some of the German players in my team), but I was forced to defend my tactics all the time, because Alaba and Bale were destroying Reuter/Kohler/Sammer in the beginning, followed up by Redondo running riot against Kroos and Effenberg :mad:. Should have just ignored all that and told stories.
:lol:

Hmm speaking of Redondo - how would he work with Sammer?

If EAP has played that diamond in the final, the one he has now with Sammer as the DM, do you think he could have squeezed Redondo in despite having Sammer there?
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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:lol:

Hmm speaking of Redondo - how would he work with Sammer?

If EAP has played that diamond in the final, the one he has now with Sammer as the DM, do you think he could have squeezed Redondo in despite having Sammer there?
Lahm definitely!

Very difficult to turn down Redondo, but to fit him, I have to change to 4-3-3 with him, Sammer and Alonso. RC, Baggio and Romario to be retained. With Lahm and Maldini providing width, it would have worked.

Nedved in the left of diamond is worth thinking about too!
 

VivaJanuzaj

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Damn! Was going to vote for EAP but overslept :D
Sorry mate I was insanely drunk last night and forgot about it...

Well done both teams.