Still catching up... Valencia scoring six past Real... 
I guess Redondo once had a bad game then?
I guess Redondo once had a bad game then?
Redcafe Sheep Draft - Cutch vs sullydnl & NM
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Copa del Rey 98-99 I think, look it up, defo Copa del rey though
And yes, Mendieta's positioning is bizarre.
I know what match it was, I'm talking about what season where Milla and Farinós were the two holding midfielders and Mendieta was in the centre of midfield, because I am certain Ranieri and Cúper never played anything like it
Redondo was sent off that match, really early on. They were chanting "You are San Marino" at the final whistle at the Mestalla, throwing stuff at the players...
needless to say a year later they were as quiet as rats.
Redondo was sent off that match, really early on. They were chanting "You are San Marino" at the final whistle at the Mestalla, throwing stuff at the players...
needless to say a year later they were as quiet as rats.
Pippa, i thought Ranieri's Valencia was more often 4-3-3 with Angulo/Kily/Vlaovic playing as wide attackers with Lopez through the middle and Mendieta in the centre with Gerard. Usually only 1 holding player, Farinos from what I remember.
I actually preferred Ranieri's Valencia to Cupers even though Cuper had more success. I didn't watch them as much when Claudio Lopez left.
I actually preferred Ranieri's Valencia to Cupers even though Cuper had more success. I didn't watch them as much when Claudio Lopez left.
Anto's here 
Has anyone else noticed that the poll close on March 1?
Wow, just remembered February has 28 days
Wow, just remembered February has 28 days
I know what match it was, I'm talking about what season where Milla and Farinós were the two holding midfielders and Mendieta was in the centre of midfield, because I am certain Ranieri and Cúper never played anything like it
Redondo was sent off that match, really early on. They were chanting "You are San Marino" at the final whistle at the Mestalla, throwing stuff at the players...
needless to say a year later they were as quiet as rats.
that explains it. They really were useless without Redondo.Yes, that's tomorrow. February has 28 days.
Tomorrow? Is that not normal?
TBH, I thought you would run away with this but there's some really bizarred discussions going on and I actually don't like the setup you seem to have gone for.Anto's here
Pressing and defending with a high line? Keeping possession? WTF?
On the other hand, the outnumbering stuff sounds rather strange. Two sides playing 4-3-3, one has more hardworkers than the others... How the feck does it get outnumbered? You could get outplayed, but not outnumbered. Weird.
Run away with it? No chance. My players are more unfashionable whereas the oppositions are more current. I thought i'd struggle.
I didn't really see the need in sitting back and trying to soak up pressure. May aswell keep the opposition as far away from goal, and have the players to press to win the ball back quickly. I don't see a threat from RvN and Litmanen in behind, and the likes of Puyol and Alves are used to playing that way.
Regarding possession, well that was in response to someone saying i'd only have 30-35% possession. Worth highlighting that i have players that are comfortable in possession and can keep the ball, thats all.
The outnumbering was bizarre, first i was getting outnumbered in the middle, then out wide, then both. Didn't follow it.
Would you prefer this front 6? Its another option i have but thought this one better suited for this game. Didn't expect to see Litmanen and Kaka pretending to be widemen but.
----------M Silva---------
---Mendieta---Luis Enrique--
Stoitchkov--------------Villa
-----------Romario---------
@Cutch, have you watched the Cruyff video were he bangs on about defending compact as a unit but running away from the ball in possession, etc.? (Aldo posted it somewhere last night). He is actually saying all that as a critique for how Netherlands was playing in those days and every single thing he bitched about actually applied to your side. Off the top of my head:
I've no idea why you didn't just ignore Barca and making some sort of Barca-looking tactic and instead go for soaking and countering. Is it too caveman? Feels like an admission of inferiority? What is it exactly? Because I can't see any other winner if you went for that, it's what best suits your current personnel and the game at hand. As it is, you're playing into sully's hands IMO.
- "If you play two DMs you lose all your creativity, they get the ball back and are automatically marked themselves, because they were marking others, and typically play the ball to the other DM who doesn't know what to do with it either". He is extreme, as usual, but there's a point there and it does apply to your midfield to some extent.
- "You can't solely create through your sidebacks because if you playmake on a flank you automatically lose half your players who are on the other flank. Creation has to happen centrally so that you can get as many players and options involved".
I've no idea why you didn't just ignore Barca and making some sort of Barca-looking tactic and instead go for soaking and countering. Is it too caveman? Feels like an admission of inferiority? What is it exactly? Because I can't see any other winner if you went for that, it's what best suits your current personnel and the game at hand. As it is, you're playing into sully's hands IMO.
Yeah, think I explained myself badly there tbf.
The basic point I was trying to make was: Cutch doesn't need two DMs imo, certainly not with Mendieta as the third midfielder. I think that's overkill as what he gains in extra security he loses in the complete lack of an attacking/creative threat through the centre. This makes things a hell of a lot easier for my midfielders defensively and let's them cover other areas more than they would if Cutch had a central threat that was pinning them to their defensive duties in midfield. The outnumbered thing was an awkward way of saying the same thing.
That make more sense? I know what I'm trying to say at least...
Ah, box to box you see.I thought Essien would be so busy contributing to this numbers advantage you supposedly have in midfield than to be worried about my fullbacks aswell.
So, I hear you're playing Mendieta in the wrong position?
Yeah same thing came to my mind when Cutch said he will be attacking mostly through his fullbacks.
Also, how confident are you that Dani Alves would work like he did at Barca? Over at Barca a lot of time he was used solely as an outlet/one to stretch play but at the same time when he played for Brazil, I've seen him exposed a lot more. Particularly in 2011 Copa America where he absolutely got slaughtered by some random players.
Reason what I though was a lot to do with Barca's control of the game and domination of possession, plus pressing and defending as a unit hence never leaving Alves isolated against anyone. Over here, I don't see the same cushion for him and he will giving a lot of space away behind him which Kaka, would like to enjoy. He's not a wide player obviously but he really liked running through the channels.
Also, how confident are you that Dani Alves would work like he did at Barca? Over at Barca a lot of time he was used solely as an outlet/one to stretch play but at the same time when he played for Brazil, I've seen him exposed a lot more. Particularly in 2011 Copa America where he absolutely got slaughtered by some random players.
Reason what I though was a lot to do with Barca's control of the game and domination of possession, plus pressing and defending as a unit hence never leaving Alves isolated against anyone. Over here, I don't see the same cushion for him and he will giving a lot of space away behind him which Kaka, would like to enjoy. He's not a wide player obviously but he really liked running through the channels.
Anto, i'd told you previously what the plan was to be more than once. You know that we're going into every round blind, and that the 2 men i was after, Redondo and Guardiola were both blocked, the latter by yourself. My options were limited anyway by trying to pull off a theme, Cocu was snapped up and then Baraja was signed up. The best i could do was reunite 2 world cup winning midfielders, which was excellent in the circumstances, and try to pick up someone further down the line to give me other options. Admission of inferiority?
Another reason to go with 2 DMs to give the fullbacks the license to attack. In a previous draft i wanted Mauro Silva to help a vulnerable fullback by putting out fires on that side of the pitch but it was claimed (Anto) he couldnt do that and do a job in the middle. This time around its the same thing, but i've Dunga there in addition to hold the fort.
The attacking won't all be going through the fullbacks but they'll be the ones with the most time on the ball (untracked), so may aswell take advantage of that.
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Why not? One thing that made the Dream Team devastating was precisely how it could playmake from really deep, while Romario pegged back the rival defence... creating huge space in between the lines.
The entire logic was "I can pass the ball better than you, I move better than you, the more space there is the more I can screw you".
I know you are lacking the pinpoint passing from deep but you should get enough good balls through, or just run down the entire length of the pitch anyway as Lucho and Hristo would be helping the defence anyway.
You don't see a threat from RvN? Good god. Not Eto'o or anything, but threats on the counter aren't just about raw pace and pace differentials, it's a lot more than that. Ruud wasn't particularly slow either.
Ruud van Nistelrooy, Kaká, Litmanen and Fabregas... not able to exploit a high line? feck me sideways.
The pressing also seems to have become fashionable... It requires stamina and workrate, which you sure have. It then requires that "movement away from the ball" upon recovery, which you have to a good extent if not optimal, but then you also need to execute the passing... That's where I think your DMs let you down, they are the ones most likely to get the ball back, they will get it back under pressure (unfamiliar to them), and they are not great executioners (particularly with no space and time on the ball afforded). I'm not saying they are woeful, but look at the standard Barca and Bayern have had, that's what is required. When you don't have that, it is likely you lose the ball/possession rather quickly, need to start pressing again... It Travellers you.
The fact is, your men upfront aren't possession junkies either, when the execution does come off, they'll "lose the ball" almost immediately (hopefully to a goal, of course) so the toll it takes is tremendous. As you well know, one thing that certainly helped Barca sustain the pressing was not losing possession and thus getting the oppo more knackered than they got when pressing to get it back themselves. I really rate the energy and workrate from your guys but you will run them into the ground playing in a way that doesn't best suit them IMO.
No one went for or blocked Guardiola in the reinforcements (I think). You could have done with him much more than Romario IMO.Anto, i'd told you previously what the plan was to be more than once. You know that we're going into every round blind, and that the 2 men i was after, Redondo and Guardiola were both blocked, the latter by yourself. My options were limited anyway by trying to pull off a theme, Cocu was snapped up and then Baraja was signed up. The best i could do was reunite 2 world cup winning midfielders, which was excellent in the circumstances, and try to pick up someone further down the line to give me other options. Admission of inferiority?
And no, I don't think you are inferior, that's why I ask what your beef is with soaking and countering. Some feel it's ana dmission of inferiority, which I think is a silly logic. If you are better set up for it and it's your best way to go about winning a game, why the feck not?
I'd say Cutch here is much more Dortmund than Bayern/Barca and that works very well. I don't get the possession part either, but the highline pressing/quick transition part should suit him with his midfielders and attackers just fine.
Kaka is probably the top 3 counter attacking players I have seen, he can exploit a high line imo.
And fair enough Cutch, you do have the strength in midfield to cover the space. It's still an area that can be dangerous, specially with a high line, with Kaka roaming around there.
And fair enough Cutch, you do have the strength in midfield to cover the space. It's still an area that can be dangerous, specially with a high line, with Kaka roaming around there.
These tactical debates are exhausting. Here was me hoping i could just come on and post a few Romario vids and reminisce about the quality on display. I'm away for a lie down for a while
Yeah, that's usually the reason for it. Cruyff's point was precisely that, that the fundamental mistake was killing creativity through the middle in favour of it via the flanks.
Of course, you don't have to agree with Cruyff but probably should since he was the one who got the best out of your frontmen (not Lucho, but Lucho peaked under the same philosophy).
Yeah, Mauro Silva was both preventing Eusebio's runs from deep and helping out a terrible fullback faced with Facchetti and Joya. It made no sense. Of course if you had two you can do both jobs... or you could have just got a proper fullback
No worries, I'm off too, wife is back from shopping. Probably won't be back until breakfast tomorrow. Will see how it evolved then and make a decision.
I want to chime in here but don't want to make it a 2 vs 1... Sully is getting draft experience that will serve him well later. I fear it might cost us the game though.
@Cutch I really haven't said anything to him via PMs either to keep this fair..
@Cutch I really haven't said anything to him via PMs either to keep this fair..
It's alrite NM, tear away, sure it's only a bit of craic. Not sure if i'll be on much to respond though before the end. Headin in to work here for few hrs and then i'll be catchin up on sleep.
Good luck if i'm not back on.
Good luck if i'm not back on.
Here's how I played him in a previous draft. Everyone wondered what the feck was going on because it was so asymmetric. But I think it's a fair take on his prime form.
Has there been a draft where Gio has failed to get Davids?
Theon got him once. The prick.
I like Sully's team far better here. Good balance in defence and offence, though not sure if he actually gets width from Kaka/Litamen. Might as well move Kaka middle to complete the diamond and play with 2 strikers upfront. Not that it would make much of a difference here.
With that defensive duo and Mendiata's positions, they would be depending more on Dunga's passes for creativity, and Makelele & co. can handle that comfortable as I see Stoichkov/Enrique operating a bit deeper to get the ball. On the other side, with Silva/Dunga, the defence is rock solid.
I don't see either team scoring here. Though if my vote could turn it into a draw, I'll go for sully.
With that defensive duo and Mendiata's positions, they would be depending more on Dunga's passes for creativity, and Makelele & co. can handle that comfortable as I see Stoichkov/Enrique operating a bit deeper to get the ball. On the other side, with Silva/Dunga, the defence is rock solid.
I don't see either team scoring here. Though if my vote could turn it into a draw, I'll go for sully.
if that is the case, I would encourage you to vote in favor tbh. If there is one vote in it, it will gather more to vote - one way or the other.
Good call, it's more akin to how Dortmund play. Now, can you see Dunga and Mauro Silva working well in their midfield? I don't think their styles fit at all when in possession, or am I being too harsh?
That was my first draft and even I could tell that teamsheet would get blasted
I think you're too harsh. It's really a lot about workrate and intelligence, they have both imo and it's not that much about creativity, though a bit more would really help of course. I think both managers could have chosen better tactics in this game though.
This is true. Aside from going off on a tangent about midfield that I didn't explain well, the way I had orginally lined up the team would probably have been killed too. Oh well, live and learn.
Still think our team has more balance, more creativity and fewer flaws though, which surely makes it the better team...?
Anyway, I'm busy this morning so I won't be around to argue much. We'll see what happens. To be fair, Cutch's team is very good...
Another penalty shootout?
Only games involving Balu go to penos
It's quite tough to find a winner. Lesser service but better quality up front versus better service with comparatively lesser quality up front.
I was really intrigued by this match-up thinking it was the first time I had seen two managers who really had to argue for why they wouldn't keep possession. Whoever could persuade the voters they will be the one soaking up pressure and going for quick counters would without a doubt win. So on paper it seemed extraordinary.
So very surprised and quite shocked that instead each manager seems to be trying to make it look like they will be dominating possession - which means they´d be the one clearly losing in my eyes. Fruitless possession is the only reason that Kaka and Litmanen will be playing possession football as it simply isn't their style. The same goes for Cutch's team.
So very surprised and quite shocked that instead each manager seems to be trying to make it look like they will be dominating possession - which means they´d be the one clearly losing in my eyes. Fruitless possession is the only reason that Kaka and Litmanen will be playing possession football as it simply isn't their style. The same goes for Cutch's team.