Redcafe Sheep Draft - Cutch vs sullydnl & NM

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.

Cutch's tactics

Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3

A side with a strong La Liga feel to it, with the cohesion of proven recognised partnerships throughout the starting 11. It is strongly influenced by a couple of the great Barcelona sides and the Brazilian national team of 1994.

In goals is one of the most solid and reliable La Liga goalkeepers of the last 20 years. Santiago Canivares is a keeper who will keep the back 4 on their toes and his capable of his own moments of brilliance.

The defence will be marshalled by captain fantastic Carles Puyol who renews his Spain partnership of a decade ago with the versatile Ivan Helguera, the unsung hero of the Madrid galactico side that won 3 La Liga’s and 2 Champions Leagues. They are flanked by Barcelona’s greatest pair of fullbacks, the tireless Sergi and Dani Alves who will bomb up and down the pitch all game posing a significant attacking threat.

In midfield, the fabulous Brazil 94 world cup winning partnership of Dunga and Mauro Silva is reunited. These 2 will form a brick wall infront of the back 4 totally limiting the play through the middle, and giving the attacking fullbacks greater security to bomb forward. Both will embrace the physical battle and keep possession ticking over nicely and starting quick attacks out wide to bypass the congested middle. Just infront of them was the 2 time best midfielder in Europe at the turn of the Century, Gaizka Mendieta. Another tireless runner who will be the main link man for the 3 brilliant attackers.

Upfront is 3 undoubted Barcelona legends. Hristo Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique will support the great brazilian Romario, easily the best player on this pitch. The 2 inside forwards will run themselves into the ground with their powerful runs and endless stamina. They will attack the backpost for the crosses that come in from the opposite fullback. Romario will use his movement and devastating acceleration to create opportunies.


Main themes:

High line:
My defense is well protected by the Silva-Dunga pairing, has blistering pace at fullback, and 2 very good readers of the game in the middle. Puyol/Alves inparticular are used to defending a high line and Van Nistelrooy/Litmanen don’t pose a threat in behind due to a lack of pace. The plan then will be to push as high up the field as possible to play the majority of the game in the opposition half. The only notable counter attacking outlet is Kaka but Mauro Silva will be in close attendance to reduce his impact.

Heavy pressing:
Another feature synonymous with Barcelona’s play of recent years, I have the hardest working and most tigerish collection of players in this entire draft. The personnel therefore will enable the team to press as much as possible to win the ball back as quickly as possible, and has the players to retain possession for long periods. This will be an important feature to stop the oppositions main creator Fabregas from trying to boss the game.

Romario movement:
The best player on the pitch and up against a centre defense that simply will not be able to live with his movement and pace. Probably the worst player in the entire draft for Nadal/Gamarra to find themselves up against. The sharpest striker imaginable, his movement will occupy both central defenders creating space for the diagonal runs that Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique will run into. Even with 2 players occupied, Romario still has the knack of being able to find an opportunity out of nothing.

2 v 1’s out wide
The opposition formation will be playing right into my hands here with the majority of the attacking play through the middle where my team is so strong with Puyol-Helguera and Silva-Dunga. It is out wide where this game will most likely be won with the pairings of Sergi-Stoitchkov and Dani Alves-Luis Enrique doubling up on the opposition fullbacks (which includes the dangerous Cafu) and preventing them from being able to influence the game offensively. The energy and drive from these 4 players will provide a threat that will be extremely hard to live with.
Stoitchkov/Luis Enrique will tuck in to allow the supporting fullback to overlap, and look to attack the backpost for crosses that come from the opposite side. Luis Enrique inparticular had a fantastic ability to convert crosses into goals with his brilliant runs and aerial ability.

Its important to note that when defending Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique would track back with their respective opposing fullback to win the ball back as quick as possible. This would enable the defending fullbacks to be free and to tuck in slightly to make a more compact back 4 to play through with the wall of 2 infront.

Subs bench
On the bench for me is Spains record scorer David Villa chomping at the bit, to make an impression late on.

PLAYER PROFILES

Team Cutch

Team sullydnl & NM

sullydnl & NM's tactics

Tactics:

• Our team has a steely, aggressive core meant to blunt opposition attacks. Gamarra and Nadal are aggressive, dominant center backs, and will play with the knowledge that they will be well protected.
• Cafu and Leonardo will bomb down the flanks, each playing their natural game. Cafu is a machine - he will dominate the right hand flank, and will be putting crosses in for Ruud when he gets forward. Leonardo will also get forward, and is renowned for his playmaking skills - yet more ammunition for Ruud up top.
• Makelele will do what he does best. Sit, protect the back 4, and cover for the full backs when they go forward. He will benefit from having Essien alongside him. Essien (in his prime!) is a true box to box engine. He will be tracking back, while also making runs forward and pulling Cutch's defensive midfielders out of position.
• Our third midfielder is Fabregas. He will definitely get stuck in the midfield battle, but he will also be creating chances and playing RvN/Kaka/Litmanen in. I don't think anybody who has watched him can doubt his ability to put others in attacking positions.
• Kaka and Litmanen will have free attacking roles. They will nominally start from the left and right, but will drift all over the attacking third. This will free up space for our fullbacks to bomb forward.
• RvN will be Rvn. Hold the ball up, bring others into play, and he will finish absolutely everything he gets. He will be fed with crosses from the fullbacks, and played in by the three creative players behind him. Ruud will score!

Areas where we think we have an advantage:

• Balance in central midfield: We have a great balance. Makelele will sit, Essien will be a dynamo, while Fabregas will link with attack. Cutch is more defensive there. Neither Dunga or Mauro Silva are really going to contribute much going forward, while Mendieta will find it hard against Essien and Makelele (we know the counterargument is that Fabregas will find life difficult against both Dunga and Silva, which brings us to our next point:
• Our attack is fluid: Kaka and Litmanen are as likely to drift inside, as they are to stay wide. If they drift inside, Silva and Dunga will have to keep any eye on them - leaving more room for Fabregas. Alternately, if his fullbacks come infield, Cafu and Leonardo will go kill them going forward. Add Essien coming forward late, and we will have plenty of situations with Cutch's team out of position due to our team's fluidity.
• Defense: We genuinely believe that we have a fundamentally better defense, both as a unit, and man for man. I don't want to attack individual players here, so we can discuss further in the thread.

Good luck Cutch!!

PLAYER PROFILES

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

First in. Blocked.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Cutch entire team is set up for winning the ball back and countering. Stoichkov and Enrique are absolute world-class wingers in terms of defensive work-rate and Mendieta/Dunga/Silva is the best midfield in the draft at winning the ball back.

In the offense Stoichkov and Enrique are both excellent free roles forwards who can act as a playmaker to find the others with a pass - or simply be the one making exquisite runs to receive the pass. Dani Alves and Sergi will provide the little extra necessary width as well on both sides and with Stoichkov/Romario/Enrique in and around the box - crosses will be painful.

Outstanding side from Cutch.

 

[Moby]

Cutch entire team is set up for winning the ball back and countering. Stoichkov and Enrique are absolute world-class wingers in terms of defensive work-rate and Mendieta/Dunga/Silva is the best midfield in the draft at winning the ball back.

In the offense Stoichkov and Enrique are both excellent free roles forwards who can act as a playmaker to find the others with a pass - or simply be the one making exquisite runs to receive the pass. Dani Alves and Sergi will provide the little extra necessary width as well on both sides and with Stoichkov/Romario/Enrique in and around the box - crosses will be painful.

Outstanding side from Cutch.

Agree, in terms of energy, effort and workrate he's right up there with the best.

The criticism, and some others have said the same, is that he lacks genuine creativity in the team or a player who can be at the heart of things, pull strings and dictate play. Cesc would enjoy doing that for the other team with the cover given by the Chelsea duo.

 

[sullydnl]

For me, Cutch's midfield is the big weakness here. Silva and Dunga is overkill imo, it leaves his team quite unbalanced. Who is going to create things for his team? Mendieta? With the pressure he'll be under I don't see it. Even for a simple counter attacking game that'd be weak.

We, on the other hand, have arguably have the two most creative midfielders on the pitch in Fabregas and Kaka.

If Cutch can't get his midfield functioning properly then his other plans kind of fall apart. Compare this midfield with the ones his strikeforce played with in real life...

 

[Cutch]

For me, Cutch's midfield is the big weakness here. Silva and Dunga is overkill imo, it leaves his team quite unbalanced. Who is going to create things for his team? Mendieta? With the pressure he'll be under I don't see it. Even for a simple counter attacking game that'd be weak.

We, on the other hand, have arguably have the two most creative midfielders on the pitch in Fabregas and Kaka.

If Cutch can't get his midfield functioning properly then his other plans kind of fall apart. Compare this midfield with the ones his strikeforce played with in real life...

Theres not much creativity needed when i've 2 attacking fullbacks with the freedom of the park, unless you expect Litmanen and Kaka to be tracking back with them. Them 2 in tandem with Stoitchkov/Luis Enrique, the driving runs of Mendieta and the movement of Romario exploiting the lack of pace of Nadal mean there will be no shortage of chances created. Theres just too much pace, movement off the ball, and power throughout the side for that not to happen.

 

[Cutch]

Heres my player profiles by the way for those too lazy like i am to click on the link

Spoiler

Goalkeeper

SANTIAGO CANIZARES

Voted Valencia’s greatest ever keeper, the charismatic Canizares was one of the safest pair of hands in the world at the start of the 00’s spending a decade with Valencia and helping his club to 2 Champions League finals and 2 La Liga titles. Not the tallest of goalkeepers but one that had a incredible command of his area and known for making astonishing saves that you wouldn’t think possible. Had a unique style and a calmness verging on cockiness.

Peter Schmeichel:

‘Canizares is the best goalkeeper in the World.’

Defence

DANI ALVES

One of the strongest and intense right sided players in the world, the tireless Alves covers an extraordinary amount of ground and is a brilliant attacking outlet for Barcelona frequently dominating the right flank with his marauding runs. In 161 matches for Barcelona he contributed with 14 goals and an incredible 51 assists.

Cafu:

‘Without a doubt he is my natural heir’

Sid Lowe:

‘He might be just a right back, he might not be glamorous and might not even be the best player in the team, but right now Daniel Alves might just be the second best player in the world.’

BARJUAN SERGI

Voted in the Barcelona based paper Sport as the clubs greatest ever fullback, a club legend who in his decade at Barcelona contributed to 9 major titles, and captained the side following Guardiola’s exit. A product of their youth system, he was a diminutive but incredibly tricky player who was at his most dangerous making telling runs on the left flank.


CARLES PUYOL

The heart and inspirational leader of Barcelona, and considered to be Spains greatest ever defender. The darling of the Nou Camp is a no nonsense defender known for his intense commitment, explosive strength and positional sense. He stands out for his tremendous fitness levels, character and discipline on the pitch. Has won 21 major honours with Barcelona, 2 Euro’s and 1 World Cup with Spain.

Pique:

‘Even four goals down he thinks we can still win’

IVAN HELGUERA

The unsung hero in the Madrid galactico side. Versatile player who could play in defense or midfield, and excelled as a sweeper in 2000. Known for his reading of the game and meticulous passing. Similar to Puyol for his non stop commitment to the cause and professional attitude, and formed a solid pairing with him for a couple of years for Spain. In 8 seasons with Real he won 3 league titles and 2 Champions Leagues.




Midfield

DUNGA

Inspirational brazilian leader. Played the game with a calmness, rarely flying into tackles but instead using his anticipation and reading of the game. He galvanised the team with his energy and commitment. Unspectacular player but an excellent passer and organizer.


MAURO SILVA

Considered the most dominating defensive midfielder in the world in the 90s. A colossus of a player who would harass the opposition all over the field. Formed a renowned and incredibly robust pairing with Dunga for Brazil with the highlight being the world cup success in 1994. He was an integral part in making Deportivo La Liga champions. One of the most gravely underrated players of his time as he remained loyal to Deportivo, instead of moving to a team like Real or Juve where he would have received more attention.

Check out this superb compilation on what he offers.


GAIZKA MENDIETA

One of the most revered players in Europe at the start of the century. Twice inspired Valencia to the Champions league final twice being named by UEFA as the best midfielder. He was the quiet unassuming driving force behind their remarkable rise. Combined strong tackling with penetrative passing and a rocket of a shot.



Attack

LUIS ENRIQUE

Another Barcelona legend and yet another tireless runner to add to the collection here. Luis Enrique was a firm fans favourite with his passionate fully committed displays in which he never stopped running, and regularly contributed with important goals, in his best season getting 25. Nobody wants to win on the pitch more than Luis Enrique. He was renowned for his versatility playing every position except for centre half and goalkeeper.

Check out this brilliant video (credit to Anto). Passion, drive, bravery, clinical finishing, you name it.


HRISTO STOITCHKOV

Charismatic 1995 Balon D’or winner who was regarded as one of the best players of his generation. One of the stars of the dream team that won 4 leagues in a row and their first European cup, he was one of the most popular players of the 90s both for his football and for his extraordinary fighting spirit. He was versatile and could play anywhere in the attack making him a highly efficient forward with great speed, cunning movement and scoring instinct.


ROMARIO

Another Barcelona legend. A goalscoring phenomenon. FIFA world player of the year in 1994. Understood to have scored over 1000 career goals. Fantastic movement and acceleration, and devastating in 1 on 1 situations.

Johan Cruyff:

‘He is a genius of the goal area’

Ronaldo:

‘Romário was the most decisive player who I played with, he was a great goal scorer, finisher, skilful, opportunist. I think I learnt all of that from him’

Roberto Baggio:

'Romário is one of the greatest players of all time. He has good technique and personality. He is a master of art in the penalty area.'

Maradona:

‘The best player i ever saw is between Romário and Van Basten'

 

[sullydnl]

Theres not much creativity needed when i've 2 attacking fullbacks with the freedom of the park, unless you expect Litmanen and Kaka to be tracking back with them. Them 2 in tandem with Stoitchkov/Luis Enrique, the driving runs of Mendieta and the movement of Romario exploiting the lack of pace of Nadal mean there will be no shortage of chances created. Theres just too much pace, movement off the ball, and power throughout the side for that not to happen.

Disagree. People were equally pointing out that lack of creativity as a flaw in our team before we got Cesc, it's not something you can really get around. If you've got zero creativity through the centre you're relying on Alves and Sergi to create and control your attacking platform which is hardly ideal, particularly when the opposition has arguably better fullbacks too. Very disjointed way of going about things imo. The lack of a Guardiola type figure will have a major effect, your strikeforce simply won't get the service it should if your team gets choked up in midfield.

Plus if we're talking about runs from midfield then our team is better served there too imo.

 

[Cutch]

Disagree. People were equally pointing out that lack of creativity as a flaw in our team before we got Cesc, it's not something you can really get around. If you've got zero creativity through the centre you're relying on Alves and Sergi to create and control your attacking platform which is hardly ideal, particularly when the opposition has arguably better fullbacks too. Very disjointed way of going about things imo. The lack of a Guardiola type figure will have a major effect, your strikeforce simply won't get the service it should if your team gets choked up in midfield.

Plus if we're talking about runs from midfield then our team is better served there too imo.

Think you're forgetting Dunga here some reason who was an excellent passer of the ball. Mauro Silva will be more of a destroyer but it will be Dunga that will be starting the attacks with his cross field switches and outside of the boot flicks out wide. If i was targetting playing through the middle more i might be worried about a lack of creativity but not when the main aim here is to work the ball wide and make use of the advantage out there.

See this video if you need a reminder on what Dunga can offer. Tidy crisp passing and the ability for the long switch out wide, which in this game Alves mainly willl be exploiting.

 

[Cutch]

The 2 major sources of joy here and the difference between the 2 sides is the threat out wide and the danger of Romario, the standout player on the pitch.

Sergi/Stoitchkov and Alves/Luis Enrique are dream pairings offering genuine width combining in both attack and in defence. The opposition has manufactured width, with 2 No.10s Litmanen and Kaka shown out wide but supposedly with the license to both roam. Both will however roam as they naturally do infield probably in eachothers road but more importantly playing right into the hands of the Silva-Dunga pairing. Neither will track back whereas i have the hardest working widemen in the draft.

Up top Romario's movement is going to be a nightmare for Nadal and Gamarra to live with, on top of the off the ball runs of Luis Enrique and Stoitchkov in the channels, whereas Van Nistelrooy hasn't got the pace to get in behind and the centrehalf pairing can more easily push up and more likely to be able to keep close tabs on.

 

[sullydnl]

Ah now, Dunga? He can initiate attacks in a similar way to Makelele but that hardly touches the creativity Fabregas provides.

Thing is, we have a stronger back four than you + Makelele. You're relying on your fullbacks to break this down? That'll be tough, particularly as you have to worry about Kaka and Litmanen drifting about.

Which reminds me, how are you going to deal with them? We've already established we'll out create you, so how do you stop Kaka and Litmanen killing you here? If you leave it up to Dunga and Silva then you'll surely be totally overrun in midfield? If you drag your fullbacks in you'll just be playing into the hands of Leonardo and Cafu, who are actually more creative than your fullbacks.

 

[crappycraperson]

The 2 major sources of joy here and the difference between the 2 sides is the threat out wide and the danger of Romario, the standout player on the pitch.

Sergi/Stoitchkov and Alves/Luis Enrique are dream pairings offering genuine width combining in both attack and in defence. The opposition has manufactured width, with 2 No.10s Litmanen and Kaka shown out wide but supposedly with the license to both roam. Both will however roam as they naturally do infield probably in eachothers road but more importantly playing right into the hands of the Silva-Dunga pairing. Neither will track back whereas i have the hardest working widemen in the draft.

Up top Romario's movement is going to be a nightmare for Nadal and Gamarra to live with, on top of the off the ball runs of Luis Enrique and Stoitchkov in the channels, whereas Van Nistelrooy hasn't got the pace to get in behind and the centrehalf pairing can more easily push up and more likely to be able to keep close tabs on.

That's not true. I saw plenty of Kaka in Serie A, he is capable of attacking from the left. He is not going to hug the line by any means but does not need to. sully has possibly the best full backs he needed for this kind of 433. Makelele sitting will also allow him to cover for either full back when they are upfield.

Ruud is a also a perfect partner for Kaka and also someone who would love those balls played by Cesc. If your defensive line does push up, Kaka would love dribbling past Puyol and Helguera, he has got a great short burst of pace in him as well.

 

[crappycraperson]

Ah now, Dunga? He can initiate attacks in a similar way to Makelele but that hardly touches the creativity Fabregas provides.

Thing is, we have a stronger back four than you + Makelele. You're relying on your fullbacks to break this down? That'll be tough, particularly as you have to worry about Kaka and Litmanen drifting about.

Which reminds me, how are you going to deal with them? We've already established we'll out create you, so how do you stop Kaka and Litmanen killing you here? If you leave it up to Dunga and Silva then you'll surely be totally overrun in midfield? If you drag your fullbacks in you'll just be playing into the hands of Leonardo and Cafu, who are actually more creative than your fullbacks.

Dunga was much better on ball than Makelele.

I don't think the issue is Dunga-Silva here. Issue is the third midfielder. With those two, Cutch should have a much more expansive third CM/AM/FW than Mendieta.

 

[Cutch]

Ah now, Dunga? He can initiate attacks in a similar way to Makelele but that hardly touches the creativity Fabregas provides.

Thing is, we have a stronger back four than you + Makelele. You're relying on your fullbacks to break this down? That'll be tough, particularly as you have to worry about Kaka and Litmanen drifting about.

Which reminds me, how are you going to deal with them? We've already established we'll out create you, so how do you stop Kaka and Litmanen killing you here? If you leave it up to Dunga and Silva then you'll surely be totally overrun in midfield? If you drag your fullbacks in you'll just be playing into the hands of Leonardo and Cafu, who are actually more creative than your fullbacks.

Fabregas will probably be considered twice the player of Mendieta for those on here with a short memory but never hit the heights where he dragged his team to 2 CL finals like Mendieta did with Valencia, who have never been the same side since he left. Same goes with Mauro Silva helping unfashionable Deportivo winning La Liga and beating some of the best sides in Europe.

I strongly disagree that you have a better defence. The back 4 with players that know eachothers game inside out (which surely has to count for something here rather than a mish mash of names) and a pairing infront of them (again proven) protecting them aswell as you could possible imagine. I've basically a 9 man defence when you have the ball.

I never said i'd be relying on the fullbacks to break your defence down, just that they're the ones that have the freedom of the park here. You're fullbacks will be pegged back repeatedly whereas mine have the perfect license to bomb forward.

How do i deal with Kaka and Litmanen you ask? Either Mauro Silva and Dunga when they drift inside, Helguera if he's spare (Puyol on RVN), or ALves/Sergi if they're not on one of their rampages forward. More than enough options.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Really interesting match, I actually don't rate either of the two team's CB duos, but both have proper cover for them with Makalele & Dunga/Silva, and both teams have offensive full backs to roam plenty and do it well. Cutch's front three is brilliant and well capable of creating things on their own, plus Hristo and Luis Enrique's work rate is nothing to discard, it was brilliant, but the lack of creativity in the middle is a huge problem, with Mandieta not nearly as good as the opposite option in Fabregas, joined in this game with Kaka-Litmanen. NM/Sully team have wonderful CM, as balanced as it comes with Makalele-Essien-Fabregas. I think that midfield could've been a problem against more creative midfields but this matchup is perfect for sully/NM, so I wouldn't be troubled by that.

So it's basically a matter of - who will out score who(Gee, thats obvious ) - we got two creating full backs in each team, team sully/NM has a midfield who can create and Cutch's team has better front three in terms of creating for themselves and aiding the team battle.

On the one hand I fear what Romario can do to Nadal-Gammara, but I fear that the midfield dominance that will come from NM/sully team will be to much to bare... I'm leaning to NM/sully but not voting yet.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I don't think the issue is Dunga-Silva here. Issue is the third midfielder. With those two, Cutch should have a much more expansive third CM/AM/FW than Mendieta.

Agreed. That's the whole problem. I wouldn't mind a much weaker overall midfielder than Mandieta, but it needed to be someone more creative on his own.

 

[sullydnl]

Dunga was much better on ball than Makelele.

I don't think the issue is Dunga-Silva here. Issue is the third midfielder. With those two, Cutch should have a much more expansive third CM/AM/FW than Mendieta.

Mendieta + one of the others + a more expansive player would be fine too. Individually the midfielders he has are fine, it's the balance that's wrong. It's like us before we got Cesc, the lack of creativity from deep is going to hurt him badly no matter how he plays.

 

[Cutch]

That's not true. I saw plenty of Kaka in Serie A, he is capable of attacking from the left. He is not going to hug the line by any means but does not need to. sully has possibly the best full backs he needed for this kind of 433. Makelele sitting will also allow him to cover for either full back when they are upfield.

Ruud is a also a perfect partner for Kaka and also someone who would love those balls played by Cesc. If your defensive line does push up, Kaka would love dribbling past Puyol and Helguera, he has got a great short burst of pace in him as well.

Him and Litmanen have both been given the license to roam though, thats what i mean by manufactured width. They've been shown wide to make people think they're providing width but reading into it the instruction seems to be for them both to roam as they like. Theres no way Litmanen is going to be on the right much surely?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Fabregas will probably be considered twice the player of Mendieta for those on here with a short memory but never hit the heights where he dragged his team to 2 CL finals like Mendieta did with Valencia, who have never been the same side since he left. Same goes with Mauro Silva helping unfashionable Deportivo winning La Liga and beating some of the best sides in Europe.

I strongly disagree that you have a better defence. The back 4 with players that know eachothers game inside out (which surely has to count for something here rather than a mish mash of names) and a pairing infront of them (again proven) protecting them aswell as you could possible imagine. I've basically a 9 man defence when you have the ball.

I never said i'd be relying on the fullbacks to break your defence down, just that they're the ones that have the freedom of the park here. You're fullbacks will be pegged back repeatedly whereas mine have the perfect license to bomb forward.

How do i deal with Kaka and Litmanen you ask? Either Mauro Silva and Dunga when they drift inside, Helguera if he's spare (Puyol on RVN), or ALves/Sergi if they're not on one of their rampages forward. More than enough options.

Claiming Puyol can single-handedly deal with RVN is bollocks.

But let me ask you this, are you planning to play counter attack football? Because it seems you're team is perfect for that and you suggested yourself that you are "Basically a 9 man defence when team Sully/NM have the ball" - and that will be 55-65% of the match imo

 

[Moby]

Yeah I agree with Cutch. There's nothing that would come from Kaka or Jari that can be termed as genuine width. It would be an XMAS tree at best, in which fullbacks provide the width.

Having said that he has Cafu who is well suited for dominating the flank, but then he has to also attend Hristo.

Tough one, this.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Mendieta + one of the others + a more expansive player would be fine too. Individually the midfielders he has are fine, it's the balance that's wrong. It's like us before we got Cesc, the lack of creativity from deep is going to hurt him badly no matter how he plays.

Who did you have prior to Cesc?

 

[Cutch]

Claiming Puyol can single-handedly deal with RVN is bollocks.

But let me ask you this, are you planning to play counter attack football? Because it seems you're team is perfect for that and you suggested yourself that you are "Basically a 9 man defence when team Sully/NM have the ball" - and that will be 55-65% of the match imo

With the ability of my side to win the ball back, with terriors all over the park, and the ability of everyone to keep it, with every single player comfortable in possession, theres no way the opposition will have up to 65% possession, seriously mate have a word with yourself. Playing with a high line and heavy pressing, i think Puyol is capable of marking Van Nistelrooy, of course he is, Van the man isn't the man to hurt you a long way from the goal. If he gets away from him closer to goal then so be it, but hopefully then theres someone free to help out. In Romario's case there's a much greater need for attention, i mean would you have Nadal or Gamarra solely on a player as sharp as he is.

 

[sullydnl]

Who did you have prior to Cesc?

Mexes, we were going to go 3-5-2. Luckily we realised the damage a lack of creativity in midfield would do...

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Yeah I agree with Cutch. There's nothing that would come from Kaka or Jari that can be termed as genuine width. It would be an XMAS tree at best, in which fullbacks provide the width.

Having said that he has Cafu who is well suited for dominating the flank, but then he has to also attend Hristo.

Tough one, this.

There are two claims colliding with each other here that I find problematic - When Cutch is saying he's defending with 9 men, that kind of means that Hristo will drop deep to help cover that wing, and Luis Enrique will definitely aid the midfield/wing battle. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think Cafu isn't much slower than Hristo, and I think Leonardo was probably quicker than Luis Enrique, and with Makalele staying really back and Nadal-Gammara vs Romario plus countering Hristo(Being chased by Cafu), I'm not sure Cutch will have as much freedom on the counter as suggested, unless Hristo will not defend as much and force Cafu to roam less or get punished, while using he's two defensive midfielders to help in that wing.
What I mean is, that in Cutch's current tactics I see Cafu and Leonardo roaming plenty and really providing width, while I guess Litmanen and Kaka aren't completely useless in creating width, that's enough for me.

 

[Cutch]

Regarding counter attack football, yes of course it would be an option. With the pace and power on the break it would be a devestating weapon but its not the main priority. The main priority is to press in the opposition half, keeping the likes of RVN and Cesc as far away from goal as possible, occupying Cafu/Leonardo and stopping them from bombing forward, but with wingers following their runs. The chances will then come i'm sure of it.

 

[Cutch]

There are two claims colliding with each other here that I find problematic - When Cutch is saying he's defending with 9 men, that kind of means that Hristo will drop deep to help cover that wing, and Luis Enrique will definitely aid the midfield/wing battle. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think Cafu isn't much slower than Hristo, and I think Leonardo was probably quicker than Luis Enrique, and with Makalele staying really back and Nadal-Gammara vs Romario plus countering Hristo(Being chased by Cafu), I'm not sure Cutch will have as much freedom on the counter as suggested, unless Hristo will not defend as much and force Cafu to roam less or get punished, while using he's two defensive midfielders to help in that wing.
What I mean is, that in Cutch's current tactics I see Cafu and Leonardo roaming plenty and really providing width, while I guess Litmanen and Kaka aren't completely useless in creating width, that's enough for me.

Its pretty simple, Stoitchkov and Enrique will work back with the opposing fullback if he's attacking, whereas Kaka-Litmanen won't for the opposition. Not sure how this equates to Cafu/Leonardo roaming plenty and Alves and Sergi not, so not sure what you're getting at there.

 

[Jayvin]

I'll be blunt, I don't like either of these sides. Stoichkov and Luis Enrique are always overrated in these drafts and Cutch's midfield is bland and uninspiring. I do like the balance of Sullys midfield, but I'm not sold on his attack and Gamarra-Nadal is probably the worst defensive pairing the in the draft, they don't complement each other at all and there is a severe lack of pace which Romario can exploit.

Having said all that, I can see Cutchs side dealing with everything Sully can throw at them while also nicking a few goals through Romario. Sorry sully.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

With the ability of my side to win the ball back, with terriors all over the park, and the ability of everyone to keep it, with every single player comfortable in possession, theres no way the opposition will have up to 65% possession, seriously mate have a word with yourself. Playing with a high line and heavy pressing, i think Puyol is capable of marking Van Nistelrooy, of course he is, Van the man isn't the man to hurt you a long way from the goal. If he gets away from him closer to goal then so be it, but hopefully then theres someone free to help out. In Romario's case there's a much greater need for attention, i mean would you have Nadal or Gamarra solely on a player as sharp as he is.

My favorite RVN goal for United disagrees with you, I don't think Puyol has the pace to deal with him alone.



But, I went to far saying 65% possession, but I can definitely see 55-60.

 

[Cutch]

My favorite RVN goal for United disagrees with you, I don't think Puyol has the pace to deal with him alone.

But, I went to far saying 65% possession, but I can definitely see 55-60.

If he managed to do that again i'd be fecked obviously but i'm prepared to take that chance, theres no way i'm putting 2 man on RvN, christ he's not that good. The key is to stop the supply, and so harassing his teammates.

Its a bit depressing how underrated spanish defenders are on here by the way. Spains greatest defender and the rock behind arguably the greatest team of all time. I've already had to ditch 115 cap world cup winner Ramos, and Pique didn't even get picked by anyone.

You're worrying about Puyol not having the pace up against RVN and ignoring Romario up against fecking Nadal

 

[Jayvin]

Really interesting match, I actually don't rate either of the two team's CB duos,

On the one hand I fear what Romario can do to Nadal-Gammara, but I fear that the midfield dominance that will come from NM/sully team will be to much to bare... .

Agree about the centrebacks for both teams, don't rate either pairing. Agree again with Romario v Nadal/Gamarra, the Brazillian will destroy them, absolutely take the piss IMO. On the other side I can't see RVN exploiting the lack of pace in Cutchs CBs and they are more than a match for him physically. Disagree about the midfield battle, even though Cutch lacks genuine creativity there, the physical prowess and work rate makes up for it and it actually works well in terms of allowing the fullbacks license to bomb forward.

 

[NM]

Agree about the centrebacks for both teams, don't rate either pairing. Agree again with Romario v Nadal/Gamarra, the Brazillian will destroy them, absolutely take the piss IMO. On the other side I can't see RVN exploiting the lack of pace in Cutchs CBs and they are more than a match for him physically. Disagree about the midfield battle, even though Cutch lacks genuine creativity there, the physical prowess and work rate makes up for it and it actually works well in terms of allowing the fullbacks license to bomb forward.

We have the better full back pair. Also, if you think RvN's movement won't destroy Puyol and Helguera, you severely underrate him. He has Kaka, Fabregas and Litmanen feeding him.

His fullbacks also will not be ABLE to bomb forward. If Kaka and Litmanen drift infield. They will have to follow - or leave Dunga and Silva overwhelmed by Cesc/Kaka/Litmanen.

Tactically, he is in trouble IMO.

 

[Jayvin]

My favorite RVN goal for United disagrees with you, I don't think Puyol has the pace to deal with him alone.

Mate that was against Fulham, no idea who their centrebacks were at the time (probably Aaron Hughes or someone equally shit). Either way they aren't a patch on Puyol and it's not like RVN scored goals like that regularly. When I said I don't rate Helguera/Puyol highly, it was in terms of the rest of the CBs in the draft, not compared to EPL relegation battlers.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

If he managed to do that again i'd be fecked obviously but i'm prepared to take that chance, theres no way i'm putting 2 man on RvN, christ he's not that good. The key is to stop the supply, and so harassing his teammates.

Its a bit depressing how underrated spanish defenders are on here by the way. Spains greatest defender and the rock behind arguably the greatest team of all time. I've already had to ditch 115 cap world cup winner Ramos, and Pique didn't even get picked by anyone.

You're worrying about Puyol not having the pace up against RVN and ignoring Romario up against fecking Nadal

I never seen a post by Sully claiming Nadal will have to single handedly try to maintain Romario, and I even said: "On the one hand I fear what Romario can do to Nadal-Gamarra".

And I'm obviously not stating that RVN will do it again, but he's really really good. And playing a high defensive line and expecting that RVN with a bunch of good passers behind him won't once or twice beat Puyol in his brilliant movement or in pace is really underrating him.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Also, if you think RvN's movement won't destroy Puyol and Helguera, you severely underrate him. He has Kaka, Fabregas and Litmanen feeding him.

Kind of what I said, but add to that that RvN needs to use his movement only to beat Puyol, Helguera is busy elsewhere according to Cutch.

 

[Jayvin]

We have the better full back pair.

Absolutely. And now that I look at it again, Dunga/Silva aren't going to provide much attacking threat so Essien or Makelele (whoever isn't tracking the runs of Mendieta) should be able to cover their runs forward adequately.

Still leaning towards Cutch but I'm pretty drunk at the moment so I'll hold off voting for the time being.

 

[NM]

Mate that was against Fulham, no idea who their centrebacks were at the time (probably Aaron Hughes or someone equally shit). Either way they aren't a patch on Puyol and it's not like RVN scored goals like that regularly. When I said I don't rate Helguera/Puyol highly, it was in terms of the rest of the CBs in the draft, not compared to EPL relegation battlers.

Messi/Ronaldo play 99% of their games against shit CBs - should that record be discounted? Pele played nobodies in Brazil. We should discount him too.

Ruud scored no matter who he played against tbh. He also scored regularly (iirc) against Barca for Madrid.

RvN is my 2nd favourtie (or maybe favorite) United player ever. He doesn't get the praise he deserves.

Helguera is the weakest CB on show here IMO.

 

[Cutch]

We have the better full back pair. Also, if you think RvN's movement won't destroy Puyol and Helguera, you severely underrate him. He has Kaka, Fabregas and Litmanen feeding him.

His fullbacks also will not be ABLE to bomb forward. If Kaka and Litmanen drift infield. They will have to follow - or leave Dunga and Silva overwhelmed by Cesc/Kaka/Litmanen.

Tactically, he is in trouble IMO.

Your fullback pair are being asked to boss a flank on their own 2v1, whereas mine have the perfect license to bomb forward. Why the feck would they drift inside and follow Kaka-Litmanen, thats what the four in the middle are for. Dani Alves will play his usual game, there's no way you can keep a leash on him from attacking.

 

[sullydnl]

Fabregas will probably be considered twice the player of Mendieta for those on here with a short memory but never hit the heights where he dragged his team to 2 CL finals like Mendieta did with Valencia, who have never been the same side since he left. Same goes with Mauro Silva helping unfashionable Deportivo winning La Liga and beating some of the best sides in Europe.

I strongly disagree that you have a better defence. The back 4 with players that know eachothers game inside out (which surely has to count for something here rather than a mish mash of names) and a pairing infront of them (again proven) protecting them aswell as you could possible imagine. I've basically a 9 man defence when you have the ball.

I never said i'd be relying on the fullbacks to break your defence down, just that they're the ones that have the freedom of the park here. You're fullbacks will be pegged back repeatedly whereas mine have the perfect license to bomb forward.

How do i deal with Kaka and Litmanen you ask? Either Mauro Silva and Dunga when they drift inside, Helguera if he's spare (Puyol on RVN), or ALves/Sergi if they're not on one of their rampages forward. More than enough options.

A) I agree Mendieta is a very good player. He's not what you need to compliment Dunga and Silva though. It's balance that's your problem, not quality. There's nothing you can really do about that now, you can't change their nature.

B) Guess we'll have to disagree over who has the better back four. Puyol and Helguera are relatively weak I'd say, not sure you could argue that Nadal isn't better than either of them. Cafu is certainly better than Alves while Leonardo/Sergi is a closer call. I would point out that you'd probably be better off with our fullbacks considering how reliant you'll be on that position.

C) I don't see how our fullbacks will be pegged back that much, we're the ones who'll be dictating where the game is played. In fact, I'd worry about Alves and Sergi defensively if were you.

D) So, let's say Dunga and Silva deal with Kaka and Litmanen. That leaves Mendieta to cope with Cesc and Essien? He'll be murdered. Alternatively you leave Puyol to deal with RvN single handedly (bad idea imo) and Helguera gets dragged about the place? Don't forget Kaka's ability to go past players, if you leave your centre backs directly to his mercy you're gonna be in trouble. Or, it's left to Alves and Sergi to deal with. In which case they're going to be far too busy to raid forward (not good when they're your primary attacking platform) and the weakest part of their game (defensive qualities) will be exposed. Not least because Cafu and Leonardo will happily cause them problems too.

 

[NM]

Your fullback pair are being asked to boss a flank on their own 2v1, whereas mine have the perfect license to bomb forward. Why the feck would they drift inside and follow Kaka-Litmanen, thats what the four in the middle are for. Dani Alves will play his usual game, there's no way you can keep a leash on him from attacking.

Cafu is more than capable of doing that tbh.

Also, If your fullbacks don't drift inside, Fabregas/Kaka/Litmanen combo will destroy you. One of them will usually be free, or your defense will be all over the place. I hope your fullbacks stay wide - better for my team!

 

[NM]

ok I don't want to make this 2 vs 1 so I'll try and sit out for a little bit. Busy at work too.. Good team cutch!