I've just tagged everyone who already posted one.
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And I'm surprised by so many voting Buffon over Yashin. From brief videos I've watched off him, he had it all, ability, athleticism, command over box, good at handling crosses and excellent in one-on-one situations, saving penalties, kicking...And the only GK to have won the Balon d'Or.
And at a stage when he was a pioneer and not walking a path already set. Everyone who came later had aadvantage to build on what he and others like him pioneered and so that earns him bonus points in my books.
In which ability does Buffon trump over Yashin?
And at a stage when he was a pioneer and not walking a path already set. Everyone who came later had aadvantage to build on what he and others like him pioneered and so that earns him bonus points in my books.
In which ability does Buffon trump over Yashin?
Well, maybe I underrate him, but to me he always looked like a highlights keeper. He played for multiple successful teams at Real and has only one Zamora trophy which is telling(even Buyo has two for example and their defence individually wasn't better at the time). His resume is impressive, but he did have fantastic team mates both for club and country who either outscored the opposition or completely starved them from the ball.
To me someone like Canizares for example had better peak in pure goalkeeping sense - when Valencia came short twice in the CL and won back to back La Liga's and UEFA cup. Sure he didn't have his consistency but both of them aren't that far apart and I wouldn't put either of them in top 20.
Wouldn't argue at the very top. There are keepers like Yashin, Buffon, Maier, Zoff, Banks, Schmeichel, Dasayev who I wouldn't argue against them being called the greatest ever.
Where Buffon pips it for me is his sheer consistency and the combining all the abilities you need in a great goalkeeper in one. He doesn't have an outstanding feature that you can easily say he's the best ever at.
For example De Gea, Schmeichel, Banks have fantastic reflexes, but Buffon is right up there at the very top. His command over the area probably isn't the best ever but it's right up there. He isn't the best sweeper keeper like Neuer, but he is right up there and probably the pioneer in that aspect(in modern game I mean whereas shot stopping ability was more appreciated in the 90's).
Every keeper has ups and downs, like VdS for example(or DDG this year), but Buffon hardly had an off season in his 20+ years career. I honestly can't remember him being average or making several blunders in the course of a season.
Obviously Yashin shares those straits and won't hold it against him people to consider him better, but to me personally Gigi just edges it.
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Ditto this.
Not discounting his critical role to Real's Champions League win in 2002 or Spain's successes, and aside from a period around 2006-2008 when he was almost flawless, ultimately he's been too error prone for me to be in the top 20. Extending this out, I'd probably drop him somewhere around 25-35.
Yashin had an odd mistake in him — which is true to all keepers of that era though. The standard of coaching, I think, really improved the standard of keeping over the years, more so than with outfield players. He was immense though, and inflicted genuine fear in strikers a la Kahn/Schmeichel without being a cnut though. Buffon is an easy choice — clearly outstanding, modern but not too young, amazingly consistent and generally loved and adored. It's something like Messi vs Pelé.
I feel Buffon benefited from good defenders ahead of him. Cannavaro, Thuram, Montero, Bonucci, Barzagli etc in a Juve set up that was defensively well built. Yashin was switching between a WM and 4-2-4 mostly.
Part of reasons why I rate DDG's ability at par with VdS and Schikes simply because he didn't have the luxury of a strong defensive line. Even his mistakes last season are more understandable considering the pressure he faces every game.
Yeah agreed. 30-35 is probably where I'd put him.
DDG shot stopping ability is right up there with the very best. However he lacks in certain areas compared to Schmikes and VdS. Wouldn't put him above them, yet. Although he is still far from done.
Buffon obviously had excellent defenders around him but he also elevated that defence. He changed multiple partners yet his level never dropped.
Yashin didn't have mugs in front of him either, mind. Soviets were pretty organized defensively and was one of their strong points.
Wow, there was a long time when he and Buffon were considered the best in the generation. I'd say anywhere above 20 in the final list after everyone posts would surprise me. Wonder how much the dip in the last few years is contributing to this.
The problem Casillas has is that once his agility and reflexes went south, he was shown to be a very average keeper. If there would have been a forced retirement of some sort where he ended his career at his best, he'd have a very different story and regard than he does now, where the majority of these keepers kept going and going and going and were still, at the least, top 5 in the world all the way up to retiring. Zoff, Buffon, Shilton et al, just have the kind of longevity that is vital for a keeper, with Buffon, for me, being the apex as he came in so young and was imperious for literal decades and is still one of the better keepers out there, sans his kicking in this modern game.
By contrast, Casillas looked like a clown during his final years and it has to count against him, and I think it'll show in a lot of the lists posted.
Hmm, peak vs longevity is an age old debate. But I think his peak was long enough to ignore the slide later on.
I mean, I assume most would rate Ronaldinho based on his peak years which were long enough.
Longevity is a barometer that separates keepers more than outfield player peaks - in any all-time keeper debate I've seen or been involved in, it is a huge factor, much more so than for outfield players.
Casillas stopped being Casillas the moment his athleticism dwindled. It's a huge mark against him in this company.
Great keepers compensate for the athleticism loss with exceptional positioning, pre-emptive awareness and a whole host of other things Casillas proved to not have in his locker.
Hmm, fair.
The modern keepers do have a larger scrutiny time frame though. You'd could highlight such dips for most modern keepers. Petr Cech had problems, De Gea going through a fair bit now.
Adjusting for inflation in scrutiny, I'd still put him in top 20 in my list personally.
Agreed with this, but also to reiterate the only time I've seen him being world class on consistent basis and you could say he is the best in the world was 07/08. Even the very next year he had his moments. If we define a three years peak with him you still could see his deficiencies in some segments, which are already commented.
What happened to him afterwards just confirmed that his reactions, ability and athleticism were what made him what he was.
How is De Gea considered better than Casillas or is this just a thing because we're on a United forum?
Wow that's harsh.
Well, that depends on your definition. You will see that on most lists Casillas is put higher, because no one will argue that De Gea's career is more impressive at this point. But if we're talking about their peak or about their talent, De Gea has a real claim on being the better one out of the two.
Dave will probably end up going the same way. Apart for his reflexes there's nothing else that is really outstanding about his game.
Not enough Chilavert on these lists.
Casillas contribution in winning the biggest trophies in world football was too significant for me to leave him out. For about 7 or 8 years he was a fantastic shot stopper and when the biggest stage arrived there are games, knock-out games being decided by his incredible saves.
Even in 2010 WC he was brilliant and after that his steep decline begun.
Top 20 easily. Especially if you include De Gea inside.
Even in 2010 WC he was brilliant and after that his steep decline begun.
Top 20 easily. Especially if you include De Gea inside.
Even if he might be *slightly* better than Casillas at his peak which is very debatable and close either way, the gap how they performed in KO games and NT tournaments in general is gigantic.
I used to defend him a lot in the football forums on here as he used to, unfairly, get a lot of the same treatment Ramos receives. But I think if you were to list out the best keepers in the world not called Buffon over the last 20 years or so, then for me it would go something like this:
2000-2004 Kahn
2004-2006 Cech
2006-2008 Casillas
2008-2010 Cesar
2010-2015 Neuer
2015-2018 De Gea
2018-2019 Oblak
Or something along those lines, give or take a year/keeper or so. Outwith that peak period for me he’s not had the consistency of the other top 20 keepers and probably a few others. One thing in his favour is that he was operating at the top level from a very young age and the trade-off is that he declined sharper when he hit his 30s.
Well, we aren't imposing our opinion on you — more so, most of us put Casillas higher because of his NT career. You're welcome to post your own list in the voting thread by the way if you're interested.
De Gea was a one man wall for too long for me and is one of the best shot stoppers I've seen. Great reach compared to Casillas as well. Just like @harms we're not trying to impose our views here, just asked because you can see his position being debatable, so good to see people sharing different opinions.
@harms
Before starting the next thread, we have to draw the line between "playmaking" and "regular" CBs. (Will be the only task for the three defender categories.) No reason not to start collecting & sorting the borderline candidates already, I guess.
@Schneckerl
This is how we agreed to address the problem you mentioned. The majority of alltimers will be obvious cases anyway, so the pool of unclear candidates shouldn't be that large. Central midfielders might take some time, though.
Before starting the next thread, we have to draw the line between "playmaking" and "regular" CBs. (Will be the only task for the three defender categories.) No reason not to start collecting & sorting the borderline candidates already, I guess.
@Schneckerl
This is how we agreed to address the problem you mentioned. The majority of alltimers will be obvious cases anyway, so the pool of unclear candidates shouldn't be that large. Central midfielders might take some time, though.
During his peak years, Casillas' mistakes were overlooked as him just having 'a moment' and I don't think many watching him thought that without his athleticism he'd be a quite terrible keeper, so it did come as a bit of a surprise to see just how much of his game was being masked by it, I think.
A keeper getting old should not signify him falling off a cliff, as that's something that just doesn't happen with the best of them. Sure, they might not get to shots they once would've with ease and they might be quite a bit slower than they once were, but their fundamentals are like a shining beacon and rock solid foundation underneath them that ensures they are still viable options for at least CL-level clubs in top leagues who don't already have a highly regarded keeper in their ranks.
I bet if we'd have done this goalkeeper ranking during Casillas' peak, he'd be in, or around the 10 spot, now, however, warts and all, it is hard to place him in the 20 when so many of those in their were far better than him during their decline even if they didn't shine as brightly at their own peak.
His positioning on his line and pre-emption when following play is special. It's not by luck he's able to make so many saves with his legs, as he's read the play, positioned himself as needed and then done something ridiculous to prevent the ball going in, that's peak DDG, mind, not the shadow we saw last season.
Casillas was the goalkeeping version of a defender who gets praised for always winning the ball by going to ground; sure, it is great when it works out, but purists will argue that, if that CB had better awareness, he wouldn't be going to ground so often in the first place. Casillas made many crazy saves, but if he had better footwork across the line or read the plays better, he wouldn't have the showreel moment the he was famed for in the first place.
None of it matters when everything works out, but it is a big difference between DDG and Casillas, for me. De Gea's weaknesses are well written about, but if we take out his strengths, he's still an above average keeper who shouldn't fall of a cliff as he's athleticism wanes. I think there's more potential for him to improve his weaknesses and round himself out whilst losing the herocism in the impossible saves than there is of him turning into a shadow of his former self, personally.
Was the Shilton vs. Banks debate ever had here?
How much of a factor is the Pele save in how Banks is ranked?
I see Shilton is lowly ranked in the lists thus far whilst Banks isn't, so I'm guessing not?
How much of a factor is the Pele save in how Banks is ranked?
I see Shilton is lowly ranked in the lists thus far whilst Banks isn't, so I'm guessing not?
To me Shilton had the consistency but never was as good as Banks at his peak.
Agree on your estimation on Casillas btw nothing much to add to that.
On a side note how do people feel about Beara? I notice he got on couple of people lists but probably being an oldie won't get as much appreciation in the final ranking.
Can you please edit the names on the footnote out, @Invictus? It'll complicate the calculation process.
Not much is available on him, but from what I've seen, I was very impressed. As I said a few times, only 2 keepers from that era looked absolutely like modern keepers to me — Yashin and Beara. The save against England is genuinely one of the best saves I've seen.
Yes, same. Unfortunately not many highlights as you said or full games, but Yashin himself spoke fondly of him and often cited him as better than he was at the time.
It's a difficult one to comment on with any authority unless you've lived through their careers and seen them on a regular basis. Internationally I think Banks brings a lot more gravitas with two excellent World Cup performances, whereas Shilton despite his 125 caps didn't make the same mark (and was poor in 1986 and 1990 when past his best). At club level Shilton is probably the better keeper from what I've seen and read, and looked like the best keeper in the world when he was at Forest.
My thoughts too.
Ultimately I was more awestruck by Kahn's form and single-handed match-winning ability from 1998-2003 than any equivalent five-year period from Buffon. But the Italian wins out in longevity, adaptability between modern and old and general consistency. Tricky comparison though, much easier to do Kahn and Schmeichel who were similar types of goalkeeper, had similar career arcs and both boasted a defining gold standard international tournament.
Damn, that was tough to sort out.
@Michaelf7777777 , you have Buffon twice in the list. He wasn't that good.
@Michaelf7777777 , you have Buffon twice in the list. He wasn't that good.
@harms
Can we close the GK vote thread late on 9th July say 11:59pm BST? I'm away on holiday and am back late on the 8th and want to give this some proper thought and laptop use (oy have my phone at the mo)
Can we close the GK vote thread late on 9th July say 11:59pm BST? I'm away on holiday and am back late on the 8th and want to give this some proper thought and laptop use (oy have my phone at the mo)
I have been toying with the idea of submitting a list myself but in the end had to admit to myself that there are far too many keepers out there that I know absolutely nothing about and I don't have the time to research and form my own opinion. So I will just share a couple of thoughts on the keepers I have seen.
I was quite surprised to see de Gea consistently pop up around the 10th position but obviously I have not seen anywhere close as much of him as United supporters have. So I can mainly base my impressions on CL and NT matches I have seen and I simply can't recall having seen a single special game of him. So I am not sure if I am underrating him because I have seen little of him or if you lot do indeed overrate him a bit. The next question that comes to mind is how many great keepers from leagues that weren't watched as closely are going under the radar here.
Even though it pains my Dortmund supporter heart a bit I have to make a bit of a case for Neuer here. Never have I seen a goalkeeper have the kind of influence on a game of football like he did. Someone described him as a sweeper keeper and I guess that's what he was (is). In his prime years Bayern were most of the time pushed high up and the opposition team had to be very mindful of how hard to hit a ball into Bayerns half on a counter because if you hit it too hard Neuer would be there. From a footballing perspective he is probably the best or at least most effective I have seen. Add to that him being a great shot stopper as well with the occasional ridiculous error he was by far the most intimidating keeper I have experienced as a opposition supporter. It has always been enormously frustrating anticipating a huge chance on the counter only to have it snuffed out by Manuel Neuer. So even if I can't make a whole list I can at least pit him against the keepers I do know.
I would probably put him slightly above Kahn who I rate very highly as well. He has declined quite a bit in recent years mostly being hampered by injuries. It will be interesting to see if he can have another longer spell of greatness which would probably greatly enhance his legacy. For Dortmund sake I hope he won't. With that in mind I would put him comfortably ahead of Casillas and (based on my limited impressions) find it ridiculous to have him placed behind de Gea (no offense @GodShaveTheQueen I was a bit shocked at your list
)
Lastly I was wondering about Seaman. Sure he was the last english goalkeeper that I would consider great in a broader sense but in an all time sense I find him incredibly average. What am I overlooking? Please keep in mind that I was quite young when I did see him play so my opinions on him may be complete crap
I was quite surprised to see de Gea consistently pop up around the 10th position but obviously I have not seen anywhere close as much of him as United supporters have. So I can mainly base my impressions on CL and NT matches I have seen and I simply can't recall having seen a single special game of him. So I am not sure if I am underrating him because I have seen little of him or if you lot do indeed overrate him a bit. The next question that comes to mind is how many great keepers from leagues that weren't watched as closely are going under the radar here.
Even though it pains my Dortmund supporter heart a bit I have to make a bit of a case for Neuer here. Never have I seen a goalkeeper have the kind of influence on a game of football like he did. Someone described him as a sweeper keeper and I guess that's what he was (is). In his prime years Bayern were most of the time pushed high up and the opposition team had to be very mindful of how hard to hit a ball into Bayerns half on a counter because if you hit it too hard Neuer would be there. From a footballing perspective he is probably the best or at least most effective I have seen. Add to that him being a great shot stopper as well with the occasional ridiculous error he was by far the most intimidating keeper I have experienced as a opposition supporter. It has always been enormously frustrating anticipating a huge chance on the counter only to have it snuffed out by Manuel Neuer. So even if I can't make a whole list I can at least pit him against the keepers I do know.
I would probably put him slightly above Kahn who I rate very highly as well. He has declined quite a bit in recent years mostly being hampered by injuries. It will be interesting to see if he can have another longer spell of greatness which would probably greatly enhance his legacy. For Dortmund sake I hope he won't. With that in mind I would put him comfortably ahead of Casillas and (based on my limited impressions) find it ridiculous to have him placed behind de Gea (no offense @GodShaveTheQueen I was a bit shocked at your list
)Lastly I was wondering about Seaman. Sure he was the last english goalkeeper that I would consider great in a broader sense but in an all time sense I find him incredibly average. What am I overlooking? Please keep in mind that I was quite young when I did see him play so my opinions on him may be complete crap
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Obviously. There’s no real rush - if you’re not going to make it in time, just tell us.