Ah? Then I misunderstood you further up.
Anyway, I'm off for the evening soon & fine with any solution you folks come up with that works.
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Anyway, I'm off for the evening soon & fine with any solution you folks come up with that works.
Sweepers(back 3 and 4) and Liberos one category
Stoppers/complete CBs second category
On a different note, I still have to do the keeper rankings.
Can anyone point me towards a game of either Jennings, Fillol, Dasayev, or Chilavert that gives a good picture of who they were as players?
Edit: Fillol that is, corrected
Can anyone point me towards a game of either Jennings, Fillol, Dasayev, or Chilavert that gives a good picture of who they were as players?
Edit: Fillol that is, corrected
The options are I think is put the liberos with the more complete ball playing CBs or put the complete CBs with the stoppers.
I originally I was with GSTQ although I think Sjor may have the better idea. The distinction could be that you would never normally play two liberos in the same side but you could in principle play the complete CBs and stoppers together in the same side either in a that 3 or 4.
I originally I was with GSTQ although I think Sjor may have the better idea. The distinction could be that you would never normally play two liberos in the same side but you could in principle play the complete CBs and stoppers together in the same side either in a that 3 or 4.
Try the 1988 Netherlands vs USSR game. From the group stage, not the final. He was magnificent for the whole tournament (which made that van Basten goal even greater).
If you're not going to watch the full game:
Or this one (it's his own voice in the background, not that you'll understand any of that):
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Alright, thanks!
It was my plan to watch some full games. I've seen youtube stuff of all of them, in addition to what's written in this forum or elsewhere. But seeing a player in the context of a whole match is different. Will still be only one game, but it's a start.
(That's why I liked Sjor's generous editing on the Gazza vids, btw - it seemed to get quite close to that in 1/4 of the time.)
He has the 3rd most monthly selections though behind Buffon and VdS. You can look at all the teams in detail and when each keeper was selected here.
https://www.erubik.xyz/esm/players.php
Some clarification on the sweeper and ball-playing CB's please.
It's been suggested they get lumped together, but there is quite a difference between CB's who can play a bit (fair amount) and sweepers who an essential component in both build-up and total influence on their team's attack.
Personally, I'd keep them separate because the roles are very different from start to finish.
Sweepers.
Ball-playing CB'S.
Stoppers.
Suggested?
It's been suggested they get lumped together, but there is quite a difference between CB's who can play a bit (fair amount) and sweepers who an essential component in both build-up and total influence on their team's attack.
Personally, I'd keep them separate because the roles are very different from start to finish.
Sweepers.
Ball-playing CB'S.
Stoppers.
Suggested?
How about this?
15 ball playing, 15 sweepers and 30 stoppers.
If we go 20 each, the sweeper and ball playing list will be really diluted while some good stoppers will miss out.
It's going to be a mess separating those two.
I'm still okay with any solution, they all make sense in some way & each one has its problems. But it should be kept in mind that having only two categories (however they may be defined) means having only one dividing line instead of two. Much less sorting to do.
Apart from Picchi and Schulz are there really sweepers that aren’t ball playing centre backs?
Come to think of it there are more Liberos compared to sweepers that are likely to make the list and difference between libero and ball playing center back is bigger than sweeper and BPCB, IMO
Come to think of it there are more Liberos compared to sweepers that are likely to make the list and difference between libero and ball playing center back is bigger than sweeper and BPCB, IMO
Shesternyov, Schnellinger, I'd say.
Hmm, would you say Shesternyov is more of a sweeper than a stopper? To me he has more physical qualities for a stopper and combined with the rather limited skills on the ball probably if rank him as a stopper tbh.
Without a shadow of doubt he was a sweeper. Even though, as you say, with his skillset he could've been a fantastic Vierchowod-like stopper. It's a funny thing, you have Shesternyov, who looks like a stopper, and Khurtsilava, who looks like a libero, yet they both preferred the opposite roles.
I'm fine with numbers, personally. I just believe it's an important distinction to make and meshing them together isn't going to give either side the full credit they deserve.
Let the mess be sorted!
Although, I don't think the demands on a ball-playing CB are close to those of a sweeper who was expected to carry the ball, make the best pass, possibly progress on further, all the while being a key component in the attack all the way up to the shot on goal.
A ball-playing CB gets credit for simply finding an open man without losing the ball. Obviously, the better the pass and the progression, the better he is at that aspect, but it's not a demand/expectation to the extent of a progressive sweeper who was genuinely expected to playmake and do things midfielders would applaud.
A ball playing CB at extreme end of spectrum is a Libero. Don't see need to differentiate.
Yeah, I'm against it as well.
That's a reach and a half. Not similar; don't do same job(s) thing like the expectation and requirement to deliver truly penetrative play.
It's diluting sweepers more than knocking ball-playing CB's to conflate the two. A total win-win for the latter.
But if yours is indeed the consensus, OK, but will more people speak up and add their thoughts to this?
IMO if we divide the ball playing CB's and sweepers then we need a separate category for liberos as well. Furthermore if we're dividing them like that it would make sense to divide full backs to wing backs and full backs, etc. In essence we would be back to the first list where we had 10 categories more.
Sjor had the idea to have the libero/sweepers in one category and ball-playing CBs in the other. Initially I was sceptical but the distinction would be that you would have partner two liberos/sweepers whereas you could with the ball-playing/stopper category. Nesta with Baresi or Kohler makes sense but Baresi and Beckenbauer does not. Also there have been many times that you have had a stopper combo
Edit- the two categories would be sweepers/liberos and ball-playing CBs/stoppers
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Exactly and there are distinct reasons for it, which we can't just pretend don't exist now to cram two wholly different roles into one category, imo.
To clarify the idea was to have two categories- sweepers/liberos and ball-playing CBs/stoppers
I know.
Will the GK results be published soon?
Just wanted to clarifyI know.
Yeah I get where you are coming from mate, but if we decide to divide categories we again will make a huge list for each role/position.
For example you can't put Djalma Santos as RWB, we need to separate it as well.
We have also sweeper keepers and more orthodox ones. We need to separate that one too. We have target men like Pippo Inzaghi and complete all round strikers as Fenomeno, need to separate that as well.
Obviously some positions might overlap such as ball playing cb's and liberos, but we do have to draw the line somewhere and allow some overlaps despite Nesta and Sammer being completely different in their roles and what they bring to the team and also what is expected of them in certain formations. However they do share some common traits that we can classify them on.
Currently the CB categories are libero/ball-playing CBs and stoppers. I was still suggesting only two CB categories but lumping stoppers with ball-playing CBs and leaving libero/sweepers in their own category.
On full-backs I really do think we should distinguish attacking full-backs from normal ones as they perform very different roles. The former are the primary provider of width and crosses whereas the latter provide merely supplementary width. Contrast Marcelo behind CR7 and Irwin behind Giggs
Although this creates its own issues, as many inelegant stoppers were brilliant at their job and shouldn't be penalised for not being amazing on the ball.
On Wednesday.
I'd be happy with three categories but understand why Synco wants to minimise them with two. I suppose you could argue though with three categories lumping defensive sweepers like Schulz and Picchi with Beckenbauer is apple's and oranges too. Ideally four categories might be best but then you reduce the number of players you are comparing
Ah I see! But defensive sweepers are a lot different to liberos. Even more so than ball playing CB’s compared to liberos.
So does that mean we’re meshing Sammer and Picchi together?
Defensive sweeper is a very short list and can be combined with the liberos. Not worth having alone, imo.
From what I said yes but I suppose you could lump defensive sweepers in the ball-playing and stopper category in that you could just consider them a specialised covering defender. I think we're all in agreement there are really four types of CB the question is how best to combine them into 2 categories. If we were to have 3 categories I'd put defensive sweepers in with ball playing defenders.
Here's another idea
1. Rate all defenders based on just pure defensive skills (Basically everyone from the Kohler category to Baresi category to Picchi category - everyone is eligible). A larger list of say 40 players judged purely on their defending. Lets you compare Baresi with say a Kohler too on pure defensive terms, which the other split lists won't.
2. Rate all defenders based on pure build up skills (Only liberos and sweepers who actually impacted with build up. Players like Nesta/Rio probably won't make it in here). A shorter list of 20. (Someone like Koeman would almost be at the top)
1. Rate all defenders based on just pure defensive skills (Basically everyone from the Kohler category to Baresi category to Picchi category - everyone is eligible). A larger list of say 40 players judged purely on their defending. Lets you compare Baresi with say a Kohler too on pure defensive terms, which the other split lists won't.
2. Rate all defenders based on pure build up skills (Only liberos and sweepers who actually impacted with build up. Players like Nesta/Rio probably won't make it in here). A shorter list of 20. (Someone like Koeman would almost be at the top)
I don't like the idea of a shortlist, but what if we try to agree on which player goes to which category beforehand? There are the likes of Blanc, Hierro, Hansen etc. that are somewhere in between.
Interesting. And what would be the outcome of that in the end? @GodShaveTheQueen
Interesting. And what would be the outcome of that in the end? @GodShaveTheQueen
God, I hope that what not a rhetorical mocking question
The outcome would be two lists, one with pure defensive and pure play making skills.
The problem with dividing at a micro level and having many lists is it kill the purpose a bit. Can never really compare a Passarella with a Godin when it comes to defending unless they are on a common list.
No, it was a serious one. Considering the format of our, let's say "project" for the lack of a better word, the skill-based table is not really the endgame. Or we can divide attackers on providers and goalscorers, for example.God, I hope that what not a rhetorical mocking question
The outcome would be two lists, one with pure defensive and pure play making skills.
Yeah, that's why I'm very tempted to just go with one joined list for all who played in central defence, regarding of their role or skillset.
By the way, I wanted to clarify - you didn't include Yashin in your list, right @Michaelf7777777? Just checking that it's a conscious decision and not simply an omission.
What about three lists - ball-playing CBs and defensive sweepers, stoppers, and liberos?
Similar to what GSTQ suggested earlier.
Similar to what GSTQ suggested earlier.