Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[MikeeMike]

The margin of error is because the technology itself must have a margin of error. We cant rely on the technology to get the extremely tight calls right and to be honest where is the advantage to the attacker in having a little toe offside etc. The offside law was bought in to stop goal hanging, and stop attackers having obvious advantages by behind the defensive line.

There was plenty of bad offside calls before VAR, we still need it to stop the bad calls and mistakes, but not to tell us someone was 2cm behind the defensive line that we are not sure is that accurate.

I don’t know what to say. If “we still need it to stop bad calls and mistakes”..... but not to call 2cm judgements because the technology is not accurate?
It is onside or offside.. If the technology shows 2cm offside then so be it. How can margin of error or common sense apply?

 

[MikeeMike]

Well apart from the video has been tampered with from every angle.

 

[RashyForPM]

Yeah this is the worst VAR call ever, and there’s been a few contenders.

 

[chiz2kul]

Yeah this is the worst VAR call ever, and there’s been a few contenders.

how was the even remotely offside?

 

[acnumber9]

That Leeds call is scandalous.

 

[BarcaSpurs]

he's a yard onside for feck sake

 

[arnie_ni]

Wasnt the cavani one a pen? It didnt look like keane touched the ball at all, but the replay wasnt great

 

[arnie_ni]

That Leeds call is scandalous.

Gif? @GifLord

 

[acnumber9]

Wasnt the cavani one a pen? It didnt look like keane touched the ball at all, but the replay wasnt great

Looked like Cavani tripped on the ball to me.

 

[arnie_ni]

Looked like Cavani tripped on the ball to me.

I thought that may have been the only thing saving Keane. He definitely didnt win the ball though. Just would have liked another replay

 

[Longshanks]

I don’t know what to say. If “we still need it to stop bad calls and mistakes”..... but not to call 2cm judgements because the technology is not accurate?
It is onside or offside.. If the technology shows 2cm offside then so be it. How can margin of error or common sense apply?

I don't know what the margin of error is but there will be one, let's say for example it is 10cm, so if the technology shows the offside call to be within that margin then we go with the linesman's original decision as the technology is unable to give us an accurate decision.

They do something very similar in international cricket, where they accept the technology has a margin of error and any decisions within that margin they stick with the umpires original decision.

Common sense is required in red card and penalty decisions more than anything else but is seriously lacking, diving and simulation is being rewarded with penalties and red cards is a crying shame why cant the refs look at the decisions and say there isn't enough contact there no penalty and then book the driver, but no they just give the penalty, we are no at a point defenders are scared to tackle in the box and forwards actively look contact.

 

[Cutch]

That Leeds offside decision

 

[BarstoolProphet]

What a joke decision to rule that goal out. This has to stop.

 

[RashyForPM]

how was the even remotely offside?

It wasn’t. But tbf, what actually isn’t offside with VAR now?

 

[RUCK4444]

It’s a laughingstock, just bin it off.

Feckin called it that it would be pure shambles.

Never thought they would be getting calls quite so wrong though

 

[Dorkstorm]

I've been a lurker for ages, but that offside call alone was reason enough to start an account.

My question is, why draw the line for the attacked on the very last mm of his sleeve, but the line for the defender (almost) right on his shoulder(you can actually see his sleeve on the other side of the line)?

I've always been pro var, but whats the point of the technology if the refs aren't going to make the 'correct' calls anyway. Just change it to 'obvious' offside calls. If you need to draw lines and and move them by millimeters to see if someone is offside, its not offside.

 

[Shane88]

I think the right call was made on the Maguire/Pickford incident. Maguire clearly shoved him with one hand.

 

[JSArsenal]

It’s a laughingstock, just bin it off.

Feckin called it that it would be pure shambles.

Never thought they would be getting calls quite so wrong though

The problem isn't VAR. VAR is just exposing how incompetent the PL referees truly are. At this stage a very small part of me wonders if its deliberate on their part so that fans call for VAR's removal.

Technology is almost never the problem. The referees are utilising it and still making a few rickets. It is all on them.

I'd like for football to introduce an appeal system like cricket. Two appeals per team per game. That way United could have appealed that Pickford challenge today.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

I'd like for football to introduce an appeal system like cricket. Two appeals per team per game. That way United could have appealed that Pickford challenge today.

What would that accomplish though, the situation’s already been reviewed by the time you’d make the appeal. The referees changing their minds would just make for more subjectivity and cause more controversy would it not?

 

[MikeeMike]

I don't know what the margin of error is but there will be one, let's say for example it is 10cm, so if the technology shows the offside call to be within that margin then we go with the linesman's original decision as the technology is unable to give us an accurate decision.

They do something very similar in international cricket, where they accept the technology has a margin of error and any decisions within that margin they stick with the umpires original decision.

Common sense is required in red card and penalty decisions more than anything else but is seriously lacking, diving and simulation is being rewarded with penalties and red cards is a crying shame why cant the refs look at the decisions and say there isn't enough contact there no penalty and then book the driver, but no they just give the penalty, we are no at a point defenders are scared to tackle in the box and forwards actively look contact.

Sorrry but your concept is flawed. If margin of error is 10cm then 10cm is on or offside?. This is totally illogical. If a frame of video with a best fit line across the pitch shows 1cm offside then its offside. How can you not grasp that.

“Common sense” and “margin of error” should not be even in the mix.

For example. A video frame shows a foot offside.. They dont give because of margin of error ?
Really, I fail to see any sense with regard to binary decisions.

 

[MikeeMike]

That Leeds offside decision

Shoulder of Leeds player is in front of defenders. Its easy to see.

 

[duffer]

Sorrry but your concept is flawed. If margin of error is 10cm then 10cm is on or offside?. This is totally illogical. If a frame of video with a best fit line across the pitch shows 1cm offside then its offside. How can you not grasp that.

“Common sense” and “margin of error” should not be even in the mix.

For example. A video frame shows a foot offside.. They dont give because of margin of error ?
Really, I fail to see any sense with regard to binary decisions.

There should be a margin or error because although it may be binary as to someone being in an offside position or not, you can't really same about the the moment the pass is hit.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

I assume with the Maguire penalty incident today, the conversation between the on pitch referee and the VAR goes along the lines of either, “I’ve checked that and it was no foul, move on”, However, you often see examples of, “I’ve checked that, it may be a foul, you might want to check the monitor.” I just find it all very odd how sometimes the VAR makes the call and that’s it done and other times, gives the power back to the on pitch referee to check on the monitor. Maybe that’s how it supposed to be used!

 

[freeurmind]

Leeds shouldve had a penalty.

 

[Cutch]

Shoulder of Leeds player is in front of defenders. Its easy to see.

Its still hilarious

 

[JakeC]

I've been a lurker for ages, but that offside call alone was reason enough to start an account.

My question is, why draw the line for the attacked on the very last mm of his sleeve, but the line for the defender (almost) right on his shoulder(you can actually see his sleeve on the other side of the line)?

I've always been pro var, but whats the point of the technology if the refs aren't going to make the 'correct' calls anyway. Just change it to 'obvious' offside calls. If you need to draw lines and and move them by millimeters to see if someone is offside, its not offside.

Hope you stick around lad. Agreed that it's not VAR itself that's the problem, but the way it's being used.

Happy to see Leeds get shafted though being honest.

 

[sullydnl]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

As with prior offsides this season, the line is drawn from the top part of the arm as you can now play the ball with it.

 

[RUCK4444]

The problem isn't VAR. VAR is just exposing how incompetent the PL referees truly are. At this stage a very small part of me wonders if its deliberate on their part so that fans call for VAR's removal.

Technology is almost never the problem. The referees are utilising it and still making a few rickets. It is all on them.

I'd like for football to introduce an appeal system like cricket. Two appeals per team per game. That way United could have appealed that Pickford challenge today.

The thing is though, the technology isn’t good enough for these ridiculously close offside decisions.

The technology has changed the game, it’s made us attempt to view offsides that are too close to call and we never did that before, we didn’t need to. The game was better for it.

The reviewing of footage from refs is just embarrassing now.

It doesn’t improve the fan experience, the tech can’t prove offside, and the refs get the reviews wrong.

For football purists it detracts from what was the perfect game. Appeals would just delay things and kill the game momentum and amount to another change from what was a perfect game.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I think the right call was made on the Maguire/Pickford incident. Maguire clearly shoved him with one hand.

You have to be joking, it's a stonewall pen. Two players have smashed Maguire after the ball has gone. one of the clearest decisions you will see all season. Absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Corey]

There should be a margin or error because although it may be binary as to someone being in an offside position or not, you can't really same about the the moment the pass is hit.

How would the margin of error work, though?

Suppose the rule were changed so that if you're behind the last defender by 10cm or less, then you're onside. We'd end up having the same debates, except instead of people saying "he was offside by an armpit" people would be saying "he was outside the 10cm margin of error by an armpit". The line simply has to be drawn somewhere.

However, where exactly that line should be drawn is an interesting question.

At the moment the rule is "if any part of your body with which you can play the ball is offside - then you're offside".

I'd prefer the rule to be "if any part of your body with which you can play the ball is onside -then you're onside". Similar to how the whole ball has to be over the line for it to be a goal. This rule would favour attackers and result in slightly more goals, which is good as football is a low-scoring sport. Also, if someone were offside under this rule, then I think you can legitimately say there were gaining an unfair advantage by standing (completely) behind the defence.

 

[sullydnl]

The thing is though, the technology isn’t good enough for these ridiculously close offside decisions.

The technology has changed the game, it’s made us attempt to view offsides that are too close to call and we never did that before, we didn’t need to. The game was better for it.

The reviewing of footage from refs is just embarrassing now.

It doesn’t improve the fan experience, the tech can’t prove offside, and the refs get the reviews wrong.

For football purists it detracts from what was the perfect game. Appeals would just delay things and kill the game momentum and amount to another change from what was a perfect game.

VAR didn't invent marginal offside calls. Linesmen were making offside calls on narrow decisions prior to VAR too, often getting them wrong. Even now on a lot of the marginal calls people complain about, the linesman has already flagged for offside.

 

[RUCK4444]

VAR didn't invent marginal offside calls. Linesmen were making offside calls on narrow decisions prior to VAR too, often getting them wrong. Even now on a lot of the marginal calls people complain about, the linesman has already flagged for offside.

What I’m saying is it’s made us try to ascertain the impossible, we are trying to see if somebodies upper arm is 2 cm’s offside

Previously we wouldn’t question that sort of call, we would say it’s level.

Some of these disallowed goals would have been absolutely fine previously and nobody would complain

 

[Shane88]

You have to be joking, it's a stonewall pen. Two players have smashed Maguire after the ball has gone. one of the clearest decisions you will see all season. Absolutely disgraceful.

You can't push the keeper when he's catching the ball. That's a foul.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

You can't push the keeper when he's catching the ball. That's a foul.

I think the push is slight /soft as feck and isn't the reason Pickford dropped it... BUT it does give the officials a reason not to give it.

Question is, if he knee'd it in, do you think it'll have been ruled out for the push?

 

[duffer]

You can't push the keeper when he's catching the ball. That's a foul.

Agreed. If Maguire hadn't pushed Pickford then it's a different kettle of fish.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You can't push the keeper when he's catching the ball. That's a foul.

There's feck all in that 'push' he literally just puts his arm up for balance. That's as clear as a penalty as I've ever seen!

 

[sullydnl]

What I’m saying is it’s made us try to ascertain the impossible, we are trying to see if somebodies upper arm is 2 cm’s offside

Previously we wouldn’t question that sort of call, we would say it’s level.

Some of these disallowed goals would have been absolutely fine previously and nobody would complain

That's my point though: the linesman wouldn't just say those calls were level. They would variously call them offside/onside just as VAR does, but with less accuracy.

There seems to be an idea that all close calls were previously let slide. That was never the case. "Too close to call" offsides were being called. And they still are being called. Even with VAR we see borderline mm-tight offsides that the linesman has correctly flagged, even though getting such a call right has to come down to luck as much as anything.

 

[arnie_ni]

I think the right call was made on the Maguire/Pickford incident. Maguire clearly shoved him with one hand.

They didnt give a fk against maguire though and VAR cant give fks, so the push is technically irrelevant to the penalty decision even though it should have been a fk imo as well. So it has to be a pen

 

[Shane88]

I think the push is slight /soft as feck and isn't the reason Pickford dropped it... BUT it does give the officials a reason not to give it.

Question is, if he knee'd it in, do you think it'll have been ruled out for the push?

I think so. As you said, even if it's a soft push it's still a foul and gives the refs an easy out.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

They didnt give a fk against maguire though and VAR cant give fks, so the push is technically irrelevant to the penalty decision even though it should have been a fk imo as well. So it has to be a pen

No that's not how it works... Just cos the ref didn't call it doesn't mean VAR can't either. They look at the whole incident.