Religion, what's the point?

[Roane]

Ok its fair enough if you havn't watched the video I was commenting on. I guess in that context my points didn't come across. I did use the Quran, because I was commenting on a video with a Islamic Scholar building his argument on the Quran. And when discussing the Islam, I'd kind of have to refer to the Quran. And yes I did read the translation and put my impression across, because I actually find it quite easy read compared to so many other religious scriptures out there.

I didn't find it enjoyable, but I don't find it challenging to understand what is meant and I can look up commentaries if I want to. If it were meant to be understood by people who were far less educated than we are today, I believe most people can get the gist of it if they put some effort into it. I know that Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the son of God or God incarnate and I completely agree that you are free to believe in and practice whatever religion you want, I know that Jews and Christians are referred to the people of the book.

I'm not sure what you mean by the science argument. Science is a extremely broad field. If you find a flaw with abiogenesis, you are more than welcome to take up that debate with a specialist in the field. We know quite a bit how life evolved, but I find the origin of life mysterious myself and I'm not sure we will ever find out in my lifetime. But the thing with applying the scientific method to say Islam(same applies to I think all religions), is that it makes claims that can't be falsified so essentially you in up with a debate that doesn't really lead anywhere or anything resembling proof.

I have to admit you lost me with the whole God and rock thing. I'm not sure whether you were trying to introduce me to the nature of a paradox.

I personally think the issue with translations of the Quran is that they are done by academics who almost want to highlight their academia than get over the message.

Incidentally this is why for the Quran to be the Quran it has to fulfill certain criteria and why the classical scholars wouldn't call a translation the Quran but simply a translation. This is one of the finer points that a lot of muslims, today, are unaware of.

The Quran in classical arabic is quite simple to understand. So for example the smallness of something will be compared to an ant, not molecule or atom for simplicity to get the message across that it's small. Considering Arabs were mainly illiterate at that stage, and people like my mum even today (due to where they grew up and conditions in their childhood). So to her molecule mena's nothing whereas ant does.

Anyway I digress. My initial point and my examples earlier were a to highlight that people will look into science a lot more to argue a point but seem not to do the same with religion.

The reason I keep mentioning the conditions attached to LA is that religion, or Islam, absolutely tells you to find proof before accepting it. So in your words it's actually "an extremely broad field" if people were prepared to look into it instead of just focussing on the headlines.

 

[Gehrman]

Any of the methods used by various people to "teach" another people's that their religion was the best. So would include missionary efforts, politics and warfare. Certainly not limited to Christianity.

The point was that societies always end up pushing an agenda. End religion and it will be something else

For instance women and homosexuals in Saudi Arabia(or contries in a similar predicament) can look to Europe for freedom and equality of women when religious orthodoxy is used as a means of control and oppression. I find quite depressing that there are still countries in the world with "religious police". Of course I'm not saying that any western military should topple the Saudi regime to try and install a liberal democracy. I just say that when we defend liberal values in our countries they can be taken as inspiration in countries where they are scare. I don't think religion should be ended, only I think it's ideal to have a seperation of religion and state, so people can practice freedom of religion and have freedom from religion if they want to.

 

[Gehrman]

I've not come across them but I'd be on the free speech side for those cases. It's just a bit of red herring in this discussion because the protest wasn't don't mock Islam. It's why the satire argument is crap too, there's endless cases you could use.

If they've a specific issue with their prophet being drawn then i think that's a reasonable request on society, not at risk of death or threat but something that causes a small protest sure. If a teacher made a student remove religious garb or leave the classroom I'd expect the same.

It's just about showing a little respect to others faiths. It doesn't need to extend to principles like free speech, that gets used far too often by the wrong kind of people for the wrong reasons.

I listed some examples earlier with such The Satanic Verses, Ayaan Al hirsi needed full security detail when she published a critical article of Muhammed when she was an MP in the Netherlands, and then later there was the killing of Theo Van Gogh because of Submission. To add to that there was the Miss World riots in Nigeria. There also some fairly comical incidents with authors such as Sebastian Faulks and Sherry Jones.

 

[calodo2003]

Poor camel...

 

[Gehrman]

Poor camel...

How many deaths?

 

[calodo2003]

How many deaths?

It just popped up in my YT feed, it was apparently from 2010. I’m researching...

No injuries to the camel, thankfully.

The parishioners were somehow spared from injury as well.

 

[MrMarcello]

"So, Kevin, umm, how did you end up here in heaven?"

"Well, I was at church during a play about our lord and a camel fell on me and I suffocated."

 

[Carolina Red]

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963...BFyp_tJBERadqMiu-jJbmgTsRKeJLvSYzQ334K4zSKE5A

Americans' membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup's eight-decade trend. In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999.

 

[calodo2003]

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963...BFyp_tJBERadqMiu-jJbmgTsRKeJLvSYzQ334K4zSKE5A

Americans' membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup's eight-decade trend. In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999.

Disappointingly, religion’s power & influence in politics hasn’t abated to any similar degree. Feels even more entrenched & dangerous at times.

 

[calodo2003]

Good article...

https://www.news24.com/news24/MyNew...d-this-article-mainlyuses-Christiani-20141017

 

[tombombadil]

such The Satanic Verses, Ayaan Al hirsi needed full security detail when she published a critical article of Muhammed when she was an MP in the Netherlands, and then later there was the killing of Theo Van Gogh because of Submission. To add to that there was the Miss World riots in Nigeria. T

Je suis Charlie Hebdo

Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Made up to feed the ego of the devout and defend the indefensible.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963...BFyp_tJBERadqMiu-jJbmgTsRKeJLvSYzQ334K4zSKE5A

Americans' membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup's eight-decade trend. In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999.

Not soon enough.

Disappointingly, religion’s power & influence in politics hasn’t abated to any similar degree. Feels even more entrenched & dangerous at times.

The more religion declines, the more desperate the believers get, the more they are willing to justify their immoral acts in the name of god.

When sanctity of dogma is placed above sanctity of human life, shit always happens. My only hope is that there is enough rational thought left in humanity for us to survive the final death throes of religion.

 

[Raoul]

Je suis Charlie Hebdo

Blasphemy is a victimless crime. Made up to feed the ego of the devout and defend the indefensible.


Not soon enough.


The more religion declines, the more desperate the believers get, the more they are willing to justify their immoral acts in the name of god.

When sanctity of dogma is placed above sanctity of human life, shit always happens. My only hope is that there is enough rational thought left in humanity for us to survive the final death throes of religion.

It’s definitely declining due to a variety of factors but this post is a bit harsh on believers. Most of these people simply grow up in a culture where religion is normalized. Once the culture changes, so will the attitudes of its believers.

 

[tombombadil]

It’s definitely declining due to a variety of factors but this post is a bit harsh on believers. Most of these people simply grow up in a culture where religion is normalized. Once the culture changes, so will the attitudes of its believers.

You're right. I did not mean to blindly tar all believers with the same brush. There will always be good people. Believer, or not. But sadly, there's a lot of the bad people too. More than enough to cause so much pain and suffering.

As long as sanctity of dogma is placed above sanctity of human life, shit will continue to happen.

 

[Gehrman]

You're right. I did not mean to blindly tar all believers with the same brush. There will always be good people. Believer, or not. But sadly, there's a lot of the bad people too. More than enough to cause so much pain and suffering.

As long as sanctity of dogma is placed above sanctity of human life, shit will continue to happen.

I agree with this. The doctrines of each religions will vary though and it's icons, but I don't necessarily see all religions as intrinsically bad and that they need to die out. I just that they have to be adapted to and square up to modern ethics, culture and scientfic knowledge. Some religions do in doctrine place the sancity of human life(and animal life) over dogma for instance. I think any good practioner of a religion will adopt what's good from it and discard what is clearly bad, but of course if you keep discarding more and more, you can ask yourself if it's still possible to believe in your religion of choice.

 

[calodo2003]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/shock...bbi-outed-as-undercover-christian-missionary/

 

[Carolina Red]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/shock...bbi-outed-as-undercover-christian-missionary/

Because that went so well the first time

 

[calodo2003]

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com...4mReIua-O_pca9Z13K1E1ZCiXI0ZkuuQv4PPbtUJw1G9A

 

[berbatrick]

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com...4mReIua-O_pca9Z13K1E1ZCiXI0ZkuuQv4PPbtUJw1G9A

(it's from 2016, article is from 2008)

 

[calodo2003]

(it's from 2016, article is from 2008)

I’ve totally forgotten about CTH, I used to listen to them often.

Thanks for the memory jog.

 

[calodo2003]

This is so bizarre it deserves being posted in US Politics & in here.

When fairytalists fairytale in front of students...

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article251069219.html

 

[Gehrman]

Aparrently a preacher was arrested for a hate crime for quoting the bible. There might be more to it than what we know atm. However it demontrates to me why you cannot offer religion special protection under hate crime laws because many of the most revered religious scriptures are themselves full of "hate crime" material.

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[calodo2003]

Aparrently a preacher was arrested for a hate crime for quoting the bible. There might be more to it than what we know atm. However it demontrates to me why you cannot offer religion special protection under hate crime laws because many of the most revered religious scriptures are themselves full of "hate crime" material.

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This seems to be it...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...-complaints-homophobic-comments-1588129?amp=1

Couldn’t care less. Arrest them for being fecking annoying for all I care.

 

[Gehrman]

This seems to be it...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/pastor-arrested-after-sermon-marriage-police-cite-complaints-homophobic-comments-1588129?amp=1

Couldn’t care less. Arrest them for being fecking annoying for all I care.

I don't think it should be illegal to be fair, I just think it ideally should be challenged. I was once invited to a lecture by a Christian pastor on Buddhism who wrote a thesis on Buddhism in university and who travels to Taiwan quite often to convert Taiwan buddhists to christianity and is frustrated about how hard they are to convert. I didn't know the lecture on beforehand was basically "Why buddhism is evil". I quite enjoyed being there and being able to call out everything he got wrong, which was pretty much everything. I could have claimed offense, but i'm not an overly offended type.

I guess street preachers is a different ball game though as compared to a church, mosque or temple. I imagine it's difficult to make laws of street preaching. Ive spoken with quite lot of street protelyzers mainly Christians and Hindus, and it doesn't annoy as long as they are to able to take no for an answer.

 

[calodo2003]

I don't think it should be illegal to be fair, I just think it ideally should be challenged. I was once invited to a lecture by a Christian pastor on Buddhism who wrote a thesis on Buddhism in university and who travels to Taiwan quite often to convert Taiwan buddhists to christianity and is frustrated about how hard they are to convert. I didn't know the lecture on beforehand was basically "Why buddhism is evil". I quite enjoyed being there and being able to call out everything he got wrong, which was pretty much everything. I could have claimed offense, but i'm not an overly offended type.

I guess street preachers is a different ball game though as compared to a church, mosque or temple. I imagine it's difficult to make laws of street preaching. Ive spoken with quite lot of street protelyzers mainly Christians and Hindus, and it doesn't annoy as long as they are to able to take no for an answer.

In a place of worship is one thing, having to endure street preaching horseshit is another. In college it was terrible, especially to females or gays. Just abhorrent shit.

 

[Gehrman]

In a place of worship is one thing, having to endure street preaching horseshit is another. In college it was terrible, especially to females or gays. Just abhorrent shit.

I imagine it's somewhat worse in the US compared here in Denmark which is one of most secular western countries in the world.

 

[MrMarcello]

In a place of worship is one thing, having to endure street preaching horseshit is another. In college it was terrible, especially to females or gays. Just abhorrent shit.

I literally wanted to punch a few during Mardi Gras/visiting New Orleans periodically and St Patty's in Savannah in past years, and less so in Ybor on a random night.

 

[Buster15]

A family of Plymouth Brethren have moved in a few houses away.
The wife is huge and they have 2 of the most obese daughters I have ever seen.
I saw the man in his front garden and said hello. He blanked me completely. Ok, maybe he was deaf, so I said hello to his wife. Again, completely ignored.
So the next time I saw him, I was about to say hello, but he saw me and turned his back on me.
After that I spoke to his neighbour and he said that exactly the same thing happened to him.
Worse still, every few weeks, a load of Plymouth Brethren people descend on the his house to have their service.
They all drive huge 4x4 tanks and park with zero consideration. On pavements and across people drives.
Talk about holier than thou.

 

[RedTiger]

A family of Plymouth Brethren have moved in a few houses away.
The wife is huge and they have 2 of the most obese daughters I have ever seen.
I saw the man in his front garden and said hello. He blanked me completely. Ok, maybe he was deaf, so I said hello to his wife. Again, completely ignored.
So the next time I saw him, I was about to say hello, but he saw me and turned his back on me.
After that I spoke to his neighbour and he said that exactly the same thing happened to him.
Worse still, every few weeks, a load of Plymouth Brethren people descend on the his house to have their service.
They all drive huge 4x4 tanks and park with zero consideration. On pavements and across people drives.
Talk about holier than thou.

Yeah, Plymouth Brethren are very exclusionary socially and very protective of their female members.

 

[MrMarcello]

I'd slash a couple tires parking like that. Get the feck off my drive/lawn/block.

Better yet, to avoid probable charges, I'd just call a tow truck service. Surely there's rules on blocking access to driveways/roads and on one's property.

 

[Grylte]

I'd slash a couple tires parking like that. Get the feck off my drive/lawn/block.

Better yet, to avoid probable charges, I'd just call a tow truck service. Surely there's rules on blocking access to driveways/roads and on one's property.

Put up a sign "Satan likes the way you park", might help

 

[Buster15]

Yeah, Plymouth Brethren are very exclusionary socially and very protective of their female members.

Thank you for that.

 

[RedTiger]

Thank you for that.

I didn't really know what advice to give you Buster, so I thought I'd just mention what everyone knows already.

 

[Buster15]

I'd slash a couple tires parking like that. Get the feck off my drive/lawn/block.

Better yet, to avoid probable charges, I'd just call a tow truck service. Surely there's rules on blocking access to driveways/roads and on one's property.

My neighbour, who lives next to them asked them to move. He is a big guy and they moved pretty quick. We now know which sunday they host and so make sure we park to avoid any blockage.

 

[calodo2003]

fecker really should be nowhere near children in a public school setting with views like this...

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[Gehrman]

fecker really should be nowhere near children in a public school setting with views like this...

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Wonder how he found a scriptural basis for this.

 

[KirkDuyt]

What's this about 215 children's bodies being found near an old Catholic boarding school in Canada.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/28/canada-remains-indigenous-children-mass-graves

Qanons might be on to something with the whole children eating cabal thing.

 

[markhughes]

fecker really should be nowhere near children in a public school setting with views like this...

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What is the issue? That he refuses to use the students pronouns on religious grounds?

Seems like he should be able to voice his opinion to me, whether you agree with him or not.

 

[Carolina Red]

What is the issue? That he refuses to use the students pronouns on religious grounds?

Seems like he should be able to voice his opinion to me, whether you agree with him or not.

Ah yes, the oft forgotten 11th commandment... “You shall use only the pronouns you think should be used.”

 

[nimic]

What is the issue? That he refuses to use the students pronouns on religious grounds?

Seems like he should be able to voice his opinion to me, whether you agree with him or not.

He can voice his opinion, but he can't do things that jeopardize his ability to do his job. A teacher in Norway was fired because he refused to shake hands with women, on the grounds that it was against his religion. That was upheld in court, even though he used the same argument you're using.

 

[markhughes]

He can voice his opinion, but he can't do things that jeopardize his ability to do his job. A teacher in Norway was fired because he refused to shake hands with women, on the grounds that it was against his religion. That was upheld in court, even though he used the same argument you're using.

He can still teach gym without observing personal pronouns though, it's a case of comply or else you loose your career, I find that beyond toxic, maybe I'm just a relic.