Remake Draft R16 | DavidG vs NoPace

[Joga Bonito]

Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as remakes of classic teams, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in re-creating both the individual roles and the overall functionality of the original. THIS IS NOT A FANTASY MATCH BETWEEN TWO SIDES, but rather a comparison of remakes.

Please feel free to tag the managers if you require more information about their set-ups/players etc.

Team DavidG​

Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

"I play against La Maquina with the full intention of beating them, but as a fan of football, I would prefer to sit on the stands and watch them play" -Ernesto Lazatti, Boca Juniors star of 1940s


My research has made me hate world war 2 even more. Things were so bad on this planet that it culminated in an actual global war. Millions were lost, landscapes were changed forever, and although admittedly way less important, a true appreciation of one of the greatest sides ever to play the game was deemed never to be achieved. The River Plate team of the early to mid 1940's has it's place in history, known as La Maquina, but without the video's and English language analysis of just WHY they were so successful, it will likely be difficult to ever convince a large audience that they were thatgood. Nonetheless;

The basic idea of La Maquina was to load the offensive third with frighteningly good attacking players, all capable of interchanging positions for the full 90 minutes. The team adopted a dribbling/possession based approach, often recycling the ball around the midfield and attack for long passages of play without ever attempting a shot on goal. Think of the total football dutch team, and the way they changed positions with such ease. Now combine that with the arsenal teams of recent years who would rather walk the ball into the net. That's as close as an idea as you will get to how this team played. The midfield and defence were all very capable on the ball, with the defender's being particularly adept off the ball due to their pace and athleticism.

To simplify it, La Maquina was so talented that it effectively just battered teams for fun, and although often accused of adopting a somewhat " We will just score more than you" approach, in 4 of the 6 seasons that La Maquina played together, they conceded by far the fewest goals in the league. Make no mistake, this team knew how to defend.



Style -Possession and Dribbling based. With a goalkeeper capable of launching attacks and excellent ball-playing defender's, the ball was constantly being delivered to the front 5. The attacking onslaught's just did not stop, and the pace at which they countered was apparently frightening.


Defence

Defensive Line - Normal
Marking - Zonal
Off the ball - Aggressive closing down from the front , as-well as Stankovic/Moreno dropping in to help the right hand side and Ramos and Rodolfi covering both sides of the pitch between them
On the ball - Rapid transitions through sweeper/Basic & risk-free passing to midfield and attackers. Goalkeeper excellent distribution with his feet.

Midfield

Ramires (Rodolfi) and Thiago (Ramos) held the fort in central midfield, with Ramires playing the foil to Thiago's creativity from deeper areas of the pitch. Stankovic (Moreno) drifts into the centre ahead of the central midfielders, orchestrating attacks with his exquisite range of passing.

Attack

Best way to sum this up is that when Di Stefano came into La Maquina, he was effectively an understudy to the attackers of this team. all 5 of the players are capable of popping up anywhere in the final 3rd and dictating the play. All were supremely fit athletes and the pace of the two wider players on the left ( bale/ Loastao and Henry/ Labruna) was devastating as Ibrahimovic ( Pedernera) simply pulled off the opposing teams centre backs, confusing them and ultimately opening up tons of space in behind. The role Pedernera played is very similar to the modern day false 9, with the expectation being he would assist and create just as often as he would score.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Player Roles

NOTE FOR ALL VOTERS/ INTERESTED PARTIES- Given the nature of this draft, this is where i have decided to attach the most importance in explaining why i feel that this is in it's essence an effective remake. I will be leaving a " re-creation success rating" scored out of 10 indicating how close i feel i have got to replicating the players in question. The ratings are obviously subject to discussion and debate but i'm using it as a reference point for forthcoming conversations and how hard I want to argue the point that it's a good fit.

Goalkeeper- Jose Carrizo. Remained in Argentina his entire career, with River plate for 20+ years. He was an extremely competent goalkeeper capable of launching attacks with his feet. I chose Igor Akinfeev to replicate him due to his willingness to remain in his home country and his undoubted ability with his feet as a goalkeeper. Re-creation success- 9/10

RCB- Norberto Yacono. He was extremely small, but made up for this with a phenomenal leap and astounding pace. A true athlete, he took no prisoners in defence and although capable of getting forward, left that to the much more capable players on the right side. Ivan Cordoba is one of the great south american RCB's, and his small height was never seen as an issue, due to his reading of the game and him being one of the quickest centre backs around. This naturally meant that he would often be deployed as a right back due to his ability to overlap but also get back in his defensive position very quickly. Re-creation Success- 9/10

LCB- Bernabe Ferreyra. Quite simply, he was an uncompromising defender who left the fancy stuff up to the other players. He did his job, albeit aggressively at times, and was also not scared to join the attack particularly when River plate were 2/3 goals in front. Gabriel Heinze is about as uncompromising an Argentinian defender as there has ever been, equally adept at performing the responsibilities of both a left back and a centre Back. Re-creation success - 8/10

CB- Ricardo Vaghi. Extremely temperamental, but a true leader on the pitch. He also had an uncompromising style, but his reading of the game was excellent. Giorgio Chiellini is one of the toughest defender's in the modern game, however is much more technical than Vaghi could ever have dreamed of ( Vaghi was a heavy smoker and not much of an athlete) so it could be argued that a modern day Chiellini would have made this la Maquina team even better. Bottom line, the role Vaghi played for this team, Chiellini does it week in, week out for Juventus. Re-creation success- 7/10

RCM- Bruno Rodolfi. played the foil to Ramos, using his pace and strength to break up attacks and help the defence. Extremely comfortable on the ball, he was happy to distribute the ball as soon as he got it and let the more technical attacking players do their thing, though he was capable of joining the attack if need be. Ramires slots in great here, with his work ethic and " for the team" attitude clearly replicating Rodolfi's. Ramires also has blistering pace, ensuring any attackers who got on the ball between the defence and midfield would not have much time to settle. Ideal box-to box midfielder. Re-creation success- 7/10

LCM- Jose Ramos. A Deep lying midfielder capable of dictating the play from central midfield and getting forward to join in the attacks. Thiago slots into this role so nicely. only Pirlo and Xavi would have played it better, but I had other more important positions to fill hence not taking them. Re-creation success- 8/10

RW- Juan Carlos Munoz. a traditional outside right who possessed lightning pace and exceptional dribbling abilities. He stayed glued to the wing when off the ball but as soon as an attack began to develop on his side he was gone. Ludovic Giuly would have stayed on the right wing for Barcelona for many more years had it not been for the emergence of Messi. He was one of the last players who possessed all the natural right winger attributes who actually just stayed on that side, none of this left footer on the right or false winger crap. Re-creation success- 9/10

LW- Felix Loastao. Capable of getting back and defending, but his main attribute was his acceleration. Once he was gone, there was no catching him, and his delivery enabled Angel Labruna to notch a fair amount of his goals. He possessed a great shot, and although he was mainly a direct player similar to Munoz on the right, he was more adept at cutting inside. In fact the best way to sum up how he played, is to refer to the man who's replicating him's best performance. Gareth Bale v Inter Milan in the champions league. Thats how Loastao played week in week out and thats why the earlier tottenham version of Gareth Bale ( where he started becoming world class) was chosen to replace him. Re-creation success- 9/10

RAM- " Charro " Moreno. Described by Di Stefano and many others as the greatest player they ever saw, he was always going to be hard to replicate. Even Messi wouldn't have felt like a solid recreation ( despite their uncanny attacking resemblances ) as Moreno would often pop up defending in his own box. Dejan Stankovic ( Legend) possessed amazing technique, competent dribbling ability, a willingness to defend and some incredible passing range. His ability to shoot from distance is similar to what Moreno's is, but the truth is- out with the fact that both Moreno and Stankovic could attack as well as they could defend- Moreno is just too hard to recreate. Re-creation success- 3/10

CF/SS- Adolfo Pedernera- Even though his best years coincided with the war, the global game was still aware of this mans ability and stature. Strong, fit and two footed, he played like a modern day false 9, comfortable enough to lead the line but also extremely efficient at dropping back, receiving the ball and dictating play. Zlatan, in his later years especially, embodies this. People question his ability to play for the team, but some of his assists and involvement in build-up play completely re-buff this theory. In La Maquina, Pedernera was the man. Zlatan is the man in this team. Re-creation rating- 8/10

LF/ST- Angel Labruna. One of the greatest goal-scorers in Argentinian History. Devastating acceleration, insane top speed, close control, precise finishing and a tendency to cut in from the left and run in behind the defence. It's insane how similar that description is to the man who replaces him in this team, Thierry Henry. It's the reason i chose him first, and the similarity is uncanny. The way henry played with Bergkamp is similar to the way Labruna played with Pedernera, and ibrahimovic is not a bad replacement in terms of this historic duo. Re-creation rating- 10/10

Specific Tactical Manoeuvres

This is an actual tactic board from river plates changing room. Amazing to consider it came from one of the 18 games that the front 5 actually played together. The image seems to show Pedernera in an almost deep lying central midfield role, but the arrows better highlight where he spent most of his time. He simply dropped as deep as need be in order to affect the game and allow the other player's to make the runs depicted in the image. Look at Labruna's arrows and starting position... I seriously can't get over how freakishly similar he and Henry are, even down to their almost identical GPG stats which i mentioned when I first selected Henry.

DavidG's Modern Remake

La Maquina River 1941 - Renato Cesarini (3-2-5)​

 

[Joga Bonito]

Team NoPace
​

Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

Herbert Chapman basically introduced tactics to England in a proper sense. His WM formation (W is the shape of the attacking 5, M the shape of the defending 5) was created in the aftermath of a change in the offside trap (3 players to play onside became 2) by the FA.

Working off the conventional 2-3-5, Chapman took a roving midfield player and dropping him into a central defensive role, Chapman created. To compensate for the lost man in midfield, an inside-forward dropped back. By 1930 Chapman had dropped another inside-forward back and Arsenal were now playing a 3-2-2-3

Philosophically, Chapman was looking to play quick, counter-attacking football, arguing that "a team can attack too long" and building an organized side that could defend effectively.

Style

Counter Attack. Sayeth Chapman: "the most opportune time for scoring is immediately after repelling an attack, because opponents are then strung out in the wrong half of the field."

The whole idea behind the WM was to deal with the new offside rule defensively and offensively, launch quick attacks with quick ball movement.

Chapman prized wing play but did not like crossing the ball as a tactic generally, preferring his wingers to cut in and score goals or find each other with passes.

Defense

Defensive line - Deep

Marking - Man-marking. Other teams also played a W up front with a central striker, 2 wingers and 2 attacking midfielder types (then called "inside forwards") centrally behind the strikers.

The "fullback" playing as what we would now call a CB was in charge of the other team's centre forward. The 2 wider "fullbacks" marked the other team's wingers 1 on 1 and the "halfbacks", now what we could call DMs happy to drop into a back 3, would mark the other team's "inside forwards."

Off the ball - Getting numbers behind the ball, back into shape deep in our zone, clogging up the middle and being very tough to play through as a result

On the ball - Rapid transitions. Quick passing, though not necessarily safe.


Midfield

Basically the midfield is a 4 man box with 2 "inside forwards" playing the part of attacking central midfielders and 2 "halfbacks" behind them marking the other team's inside forwards, dropping into defence centrally to do it if need be.


Attack

3 man attack. One central striker with power and pace and then wingers looking to get in behind the defence (or play the striker in) by cutting in and link up with teammates rather than running up the line and crossing.


Player Roles

(Position - 1931 Arsenal Player - My Draftee - Similarities/rationale behind pick)

GK - Charlie Preedy - Hugo Lloris - Preedy was ultimately replaced before with a superior all-around keeper after one too many mistakes, as Cliff Bastin says he was "very aggressive in coming out" and Sport claims he was "reckless." Lloris has probably been #2 in his generation after Neuer in challenging forwards and charging out maniacally, so I took him.

FB - Herbie Roberts - Diego Godin - For his new position, Chapman looked for, and in Roberts found, someone capable of dominating aerially and marking a center-forward 1 on 1. Godin is part of Atletico's famously impregnable defense which looks to clog things up centrally and counter like Chapman's Arsenal. Like Roberts, he is excellent aerially and a fine marker of strikers.

FB - Eddie Hapgood - Cesar Azpilicueta - Frankly, Hapgood seems to have been the superior player. His main strengths, apart from seemingly being amazing at football, were his mobility and tackling. His job was to mark RWs. Azplicueta has used his mobility and tackling to great effect in marking RWs for Chelsea. Hapgood seems to have added more to attack than Azpilicueta simply by virtue of being so damn good. Chapman did not look for a clone of Hapgood when he replaced his counterpart fullback on the right, probably because no player like that existed, but he did sign a player with similar pace and tenacity defensively, which indicates that the qualities Chapman looked for here were primarily the defensive ones Hapgood brought. Azpilicueta has the pace to jump into counters as Hapgood sometimes did, as well, and the Spaniard is a better short passer than sometimes given credit.

FB - Tom Parker - William Gallas - Parker was positionally excellent, not a brilliant passer. He was soon replaced by George Male, who was determined, rugged and fast in recovery. I wanted to find a positionally excellent defender who could shut down a winger but also someone determined, rugged and fast in recovery, since Chapman converted George Male from another position and must therefore have prized his qualities rather than his understanding of the role. Gallas was a great defensive fullback for Mourinho with good positional sense, speed and power. He preferred CB but probably hit his peak as a defensive fullback. Here, he sort of splits the 2 roles, part of a back 3 but defending the LW as his primary brief.

HB - Bob John - Thiago Motta - Bob John was technically skilled, a sure passer and admirable in defence. Thiago Motta is a brilliant passer and very skilled, and has excelled defensively deep in midfield for Inter in their 2010 CL winning final and even deeper for PSG the last few years, happy to drop into basically a 3rd CB role at times to let David Luiz (or less often, Thiago Silva) carry the ball. The HB in Chapman's defensive M sometimes had to do the same. More often, Motta marks the other team's #10, as was John's primary brief.

HB - Charlie Jones - Javier Mascherano - Conversely to Hapgood being replaced by Azpilicueta, I've found a better player who has played the same role and exhibited similar qualities. Charlie Jones, playing the same role as Bob John, was short, intelligent, persistent and not that quick. Mascherano is short, intelligent, persistent as hell, but quite quick. He excels at marking 10s for Argentina and did for Liverpool, but his late-career move to CB give him the experience to cover 10s when they look to get into the box as was even more common in those days.

IFW - Alex James - Cesc Fabregas - James is often compared to Bergkamp by Arsenal fans/historians, because both were geniuses, but positionally, Fabregas is the closer analogue. James was nominally in a fairly attacking CM role but looked to get on the ball and hit brilliant through balls on the break to the wingers. Fabregas is 3rd all time in Prem assists and created the most chances in the top-division leagues of England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France between 2006-07 and 2010-11. In his best seasons playing as a #8 type box-to-box playmaker, such as 2014-15 for Chelsea and 07-08 for Arsenal, he excelled there, creating a incredible amount of chances for a central midfielder with his perfectly weighted through balls. Not quite the dribble James was, he would still have pleased Chapman with his incisive passes on the break to the wingers and striker. I took Ozil in the 12th round as an alternative because he's probably a bit more similar to James' genius and dribbling than Fabregas, but Fabregas has proven an ability to hit through balls from quite deep on the counter in a way Ozil hasn't (since Ozil is always deployed as a 10 or RW) and ultimately, that's what Chapman most prized in James.

IFW - David Jack - Frank Lampard - Both men were box-to-box CMs who were lethal finishers on the counter. Jack scored 124 times in 208 appearances for Arsenal. Lampard's record is slightly inferior but still comfortably the best in the history of Prem CMs. He scored 29 goals in Chelsea's back to back title wins under Jose Mourinho in '05 and '06, in which Chelsea used the lightning quick counters and deep defensive line Chapman also favoured to devastating effect.

LW - Cliff Bastin - Henrikh Mkhitaryan - Bastin, seemingly the first inverted winger to be star (at least in England if not Europe), was the more narrow of Chapman's 2 wingers, starting 5-10 yards more centrally than the other winger. From the left-wing, the 2-footed Bastin cut in and scored 178 times in 350 games for Arsenal. Pacy but not lighting quick, he also provided many goals for Hulme, Jack and Lambert. Mkhitryan, coming off an incredibly productive season in which he played RW and scored 23 goals and made 32 assists, is known for being a fine 2-footed finisher with good pace. A #10 for his country and previous team Shaktar Donetsk, Whoscored lists Mkhitaryan as having put up 5 goals and 7 assists in 13 games as a left winger or midfielder this season. Primarily a RW for Dortmund, his ability to cut in and score but also provide low crosses and through balls mirror Bastin.

RW - Joe Hulme - Alexis Sanchez - Hulme was often thought of, in England at least, as the fastest man in world football. He ran up and down the right wing (not inverted, he was right-footed with a decent left) and scored 107 goals in 333 for Arsenal, setting up goals for Lambert, Bastin and Jack with low crosses and through balls from the right wing. His pace would brilliantly suit Chapman's quick counters.

ST - Jack Lambert - Diego Costa - Lambert struggled to score goals for a few seasons then became a big scorer for Chapman. He was very big and strong, using his burly nature and size to power or at least bundle past CBs on the break. Bastin also describes him as wandering wide a lot. Costa is a terror on the break with is power, pace and dribbling ability for similar reasons as Lambert and enjoys wandering wide

 

[Joga Bonito]

NoPace Modern Remake

WM - Arsenal 1931/Chapman (3-2-2-3)​

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck gents

@DavidG @NoPace

 

[Deleted member 101472]

For anyone doubting ibras ability to be a playmaker

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I toiled for a while with the idea of playing either Di Natale or Ibra in the Pedernera role but the current / last 2 years version of Ibra is pretty similar . Forget about the stuff he says off the pitch and concentrate on what he does on it . The fact that pretty much all his teammates past and present love him speaks volumes as to what type of leader he is and how influential he is every second he's on the pitch .

 

[Deleted member 101472]

SHORT SUMMARY

I am not going to focus on why my team would beat anyone else's team. I want to stay true to the whole point of the draft. I am looking forward to hearing No-Pace's reasons for why he believes he did such a good job re-creating.

La Maquina absolutely battered teams with scintillating pace, perfect positional interchange and enough players with grit and determination to look after the uglier side of things. I think i have done a stellar job of recreating this, and even in the modern game with the player's I have selected, i would expect them to be successful playing exactly the way the Machine of river plate did.

What a crying shame that there will simply never be enough evidence to back up how truly special this side was

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two nice remakes to get the ball rolling.

The five forwards on La Maquina are always going to be under the spotlight and the remake in this aspect is a commendable effort. Not a huge fan of Stankovic-Moreno, which you've acknolweded yourself but I do like that you've recruited someone who can also work the right flank to a certain extent - which Moreno did for River. Tbf, completely 'remaking' Pedernera and Moreno is a nigh on highly impossible task but I do like Ibrahimovic in Pedernera's role. Apart from the workrate, he seems like an astute choice for the false 9-ish role. The earlier incarnation of Bale, Henry and Giuly also fulfil the remit of their predecessors pretty nicely imo.

Would have preferred a more technical ball-playing B2B instead of Ramires, as La Maquina by all accounts loved to hog the ball in the middle and showcase/showboat their skills on the ball and Ramires doesn't entirely fit the bill for me. Thiago fits in like a charm in this school of philosophy though, alongside with the likes of Ibra, Henry and Giuly who are all technical and good ball-playing forwards and not afraid of exhibiting their flair and panache on the ball.

The team adopted a dribbling/possession based approach, often recycling the ball around the midfield and attack for long passages of play without ever attempting a shot on goal. Think of the total football dutch team, and the way they changed positions with such ease. Now combine that with the arsenal teams of recent years who would rather walk the ball into the net.

From a poorly google translated Marca article

"We went out to the field and played our tactics. Take the ball, give it to me to me, a gambeta, this, that and the goal came only general goal it was slow in coming and anguish was because the parties were not defined soon. within the clear goal area we wanted to do, but in midfield we had fun. There was no rush. "

Interestingly enough, I had always pegged Moreno as the mastermind behind the machine but after further research, it seems Pedernera was the one pulling the strings. I even read somewhere that his exit more or less signalled the end of La Maquina and that even di Stefano (young-ish version but still!) wasn't cerebral enough to take over his role .

Would also prefer more info on Akinfeev's ability on the ball as Carrizo was rather famed for his and was reportedly one of the pioneers for goalkeepers in this aspect. Perhaps @harms could shed more light on Akinfeev.

The rest of the remake and the rationale behind it seems sound enough as it stands but would like to revisit it after doing some further reading on La Maquina.





Lots to like about NoPace's remake which stays true to counter-attacking set-up with plenty of graft and incisiveness in the forward line. Was really looking forward to see who the notorious Herbie Roberts remake would be and I think Godin is an inspired choice. Roberts was arguably one of the key pieces in Chapman's WM and I can see Godin being the same defensive pillar, who sticks to his centre-forward like a rash. Have to say that I'm not particularly enamoured about Azpilicueta for Hapgood though. Hapgood was a rather cultured defender on the ball who was renowned for his ball-playing skills whilst being sturdy defensively and he was the defensive leader who led from the back. Azpilicueta doesn't quite fulfil those requirements imo.

Motta-Mascherano make for a mean half-back duo and would fit the defensive make of the side to a tee imo. The young Fabregas's talents are not to be underrated and his vision would be deadly on the break - similar to the insanely productive James.

James is often compared to Bergkamp by Arsenal fans/historians, because both were geniuses, but positionally, Fabregas is the closer analogue. James was nominally in a fairly attacking CM role but looked to get on the ball and hit brilliant through balls on the break to the wingers. Fabregas is 3rd all time in Prem assists and created the most chances in the top-division leagues of England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France between 2006-07 and 2010-11. In his best seasons playing as a #8 type box-to-box playmaker, such as 2014-15 for Chelsea and 07-08 for Arsenal, he excelled there, creating a incredible amount of chances for a central midfielder with his perfectly weighted through balls. Not quite the dribble James was, he would still have pleased Chapman with his incisive passes on the break to the wingers and striker. I took Ozil in the 12th round as an alternative because he's probably a bit more similar to James' genius and dribbling than Fabregas, but Fabregas has proven an ability to hit through balls from quite deep on the counter in a way Ozil hasn't (since Ozil is always deployed as a 10 or RW) and ultimately, that's what Chapman most prized in James.

That's definitely an interesting take on Alex James and his role in the WM. Always had it in my mind that he was more of an inside forward (attacking mid) and more in line with a Ozil or a creative #10 (as you yourself pointed out) who did his work in the final third. Did more digging on him and it seems you might have a point.

Alex James had been a goalscoring inside-forward at Preston North End. However, Herbert Chapman wanted him to plat the role of link man in his system. As Chapman later pointed out: "He had his ideas as to how he should play, but they did not quite fit in with those we favoured, and it was necessary that he should make some change." James found it difficult to adapt to this role and Arsenal started the 1929-30 season badly. In a cup-tie against Chelsea Chapman dropped James from the team. Arsenal won the game and James was not recalled until he had convinced Chapman that he was willing to play the link man role.

Would prefer more info on Alex James and his role in the WM and hopefully Gio could also chip in with his input, as he is bound to be pretty well-informed regarding this subject.

Do have to question Mkhitaryan & Sanchez roles though. I'd always pegged Bastin as a pacy incisive goalscoring inside forward and Sanchez fits that role to a tee. Don't know much about Hulme but as per your description of his role - Mkhitaryan seems the better fit as the industrious and creative workhorse on the right who can also put the ball in the net when the occassion call for it. Perhaps a reversal of roles might be more ideal imo.

Do love how the rationale for the wide players and how you've not just gone for standard wingers.

This illustrates the effectiveness of Chapman's counter-attacking strategy. As the authors of The Official Illustrated History of Arsenal have pointed out: "In 1932-33 Bastin and Hulme scored 53 goals between them, perfect evidence that Arsenal did play the game very differently from their contemporaries, who tended to continue to rely on the wingers making goals for the centre-forward, rather than scoring themselves. By playing the wingers this way, Chapman was able to have one more man in midfield, and thus control the supply of the ball, primarily through Alex James."

Fantastic site that is great for the historical British game in particular - http://spartacus-educational.com/PRESTONjamesA.htm


Great effort from both teams and will save my vote for later on pending discussions.

 

[Ecstatic]

I will make some comments tonight

 

[Gio]

The Maquina remake was always going to be an interesting one and it's a job well done by DavidG. I'm not sold on Stankovic filling the rather large boots of Moreno, but the other bits of that jigsaw fit together really well. Especially the rest of the attack, it's very tasty. Like Joga I think Ramires probably lacks the fluency in possession that might have been required for Maquina, but you certainly need some dig in these two-man midfields if they are to function properly so I see the dilemma there.

For the Chapman remake, it passes the first test and looks like a functioning team. Well crafted. The replacement of Alex James with Cesc Fabregas is inspired. In any modern system I think James would be the one in a 4-2-1-3:

Spoiler

In terms of other key personnel, I'm not sure if Azpilicueta quite ticks the boxes for Hapgood. I'd want someone more influential in controlling the left flank. That said it's a poor pool for impersonating the likes of Hapgood and Brehme. Moving forward, Bastin played a critical role for Chapman and I'm not convinced if Mkhitaryan has the gravitas yet to perform the same job. Good tactical fit though - much like Jack/Lampard and a few others so fine job all in all NoPace.

 

[NoPace]

Just responding to some questions/critiques from Joga Bonito. Thanks for the kind words about most of my choices. I've ignored here, as you can assume I agree with them. On to to the defensive

1. Hapgood - Azpiliuceta

No question Hapgood was a class apart. Only Alaba seems like a perfect replacement in the entire draft. Once he was gone, I made sure to read more about Hapgood and the more I read the more it seemed that despite his overall brilliance, his primary strength was still shutting down other team's wingers with his excellent mobility and assured tackling and in most games his wide defensive contribution and ball winning were his major achievements, so I went with Azpilicueta.

The offensive contributions Hapgood made were sporadic but significant and Azpilicueta, while decent in that regard, isn't at that level. There's no question this is my weakest pick, but only Lahm and Ashley Cole (Chelsea, not Arsenal) seemed even somewhat plausible replacements for Hapgood and ultimately I felt the defensive qualities Hapgood boasted were the most important things to replace here, and Chapman felt similarly as he quickly replaced the other wide fullback (Parker) with a more mobile, tenacious tackler. In the WM, the role of the fullback defensively was to shackle wingers and Azpilicueta excels at that.

2. Wingers

I wrestled with the same questions you did but ultimately what stood out from reading about Bastin was that he scored a ton of goals with 2 excellent feet, started a bit more narrowly and looked to combine in the middle with James and Jack.

Mkhitryian, similarly has 2 great feet, a similar scoring record (bit worse than Bastin, more like 1 in 2.5 over the last 5 years) and the passing game Bastin boasted and Chapman loved (did not like high crosses as a tactic) and I think cutting in from the left he would score even more.

Hulme scored a still very impressive number of goals (basically Bastin was 1 in 2 and Hulme 1 in 3) but was more known for his pure pace up the line. Sanchez isn't quite as 2 footed as Mkhitaryan but his acceleration is incredible and up and down the right wing he would get goals, link inside with his teammates and fire in the low crosses/passes once in the box that Chapman did like.

 

[NoPace]

For the Chapman remake, it passes the first test and looks like a functioning team. Well crafted. The replacement of Alex James with Cesc Fabregas is inspired. In any modern system I think James would be the one in a 4-2-1-3:

Spoiler

In terms of other key personnel, I'm not sure if Azpilicueta quite ticks the boxes for Hapgood. I'd want someone more influential in controlling the left flank. That said it's a poor pool for impersonating the likes of Hapgood and Brehme. Moving forward, Bastin played a critical role for Chapman and I'm not convinced if Mkhitaryan has the gravitas yet to perform the same job. Good tactical fit though - much like Jack/Lampard and a few others so fine job all in all NoPace.

Agreed on Azpilicueta. As I've written above, he covers the defensive qualities Hapgood had quite well, but he's not the player or influence Hapgood was. Only Alaba really is in the entire the draft pool. Possibly a prime Lahm too. Since Hapgood had lots of games where he defended well but wasn't a major force in the lightning-quick attacks Arsenal favored (we are talking about a member of a back 3 who had to mark top wingers tightly as a primary brief) and we know what FBs Chapman recruited on the other side, I decided not to draft a guy 75% as good as Hapgood in all respects but who did Hapgood's primary job nearly as well and who Chapman would have thought a fine fit for what he asked his FBs to do.

Mkhitaryian I've written about in the post above, but basically he has Bastin's very good but not otherworldly pace, his eye for goal and 2 great feet and as he's shown with an incredible 23 goal, 32 assist season for Dortmund on the wing, he fits their nicely. Bastin, like Mkhitaryan, started a 10/Inside forward then moved wide in the prime of his career to devastating effect. Bastin started 5-10 yards more centrally than Hulme and looked to combine with James and other central options and I think that's another strength of Mkhitaryan's compared to most wingers.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

1. Hapgood - Azpiliuceta

Very, very tricky player to re-create - which has to be taken into consideration. I agree with much of your reasoning, and my criticism here would probably be more on a, say, aesthetic note than anything: Hapgood was an elegant player and something of a technician - for a fullback of the day. That aspect may be somewhat lacking here, as the replacement doesn't stand out in this regard.

But Hapgood was, as you say, primarily a defender - so not falling for the temptation to pick a, say, attacking, modern fullback for this role is commendable (in my opinion). Doing so would have been much worse than picking someone who doesn't quite match the style of Hapgood (which is a damn hard ask anyway, as mentioned).

Mkhitryian, similarly has 2 great feet, a similar scoring record (bit worse than Bastin, more like 1 in 2.5 over the last 5 years) and the passing game Bastin boasted and Chapman loved (did not like high crosses as a tactic) and I think cutting in from the left he would score even more.

I agree with what Gio said above: It's a good tactical fit - he ticks several important boxes. Ideally, though, I would have wanted someone with more unquestionable star quality, if one can put it like that - but that is again a question of aesthetics more than anything.

My first impression is that both managers have done very well here - will let the discussion progress further and check back in a while.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

For me the most difficult part of the re-creation was the False 9 role. It imo was far different from the Messi version we see today. Pedernara for instance operated as much as a Left AM as a CF. I do not see Ibra having the temperament not intention to replicate that to any extent. Not really easy.

Like the Guily choice there. Would fit in to the Munoz role perfectly.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Pedernara for instance operated as much as a Left AM as a CF.

Yes, it's a point which can be discussed further, I think: Ibra as playmaker, as such, is unproblematic - I think most will agree with that. But it's a question of how deep he has to drop - and how much ground he has to cover - as a playmaker.

 

[Fergus' son]

Theres no way I can provide a vote in this draft, not a fair one anyway.

 

[Ecstatic]

1. Zlatan - as a false 9 - is an excellent choice. Of course, he is not an attacking or playmaking midfielder.

2. Ludovic Giuly was very pacy but if me memories are good wasn't known for his "exceptional dribbling abilities". Of course, it's impossible to have a recreation rate of 100%.

 

[Joga Bonito]

1. Hapgood - Azpiliuceta

No question Hapgood was a class apart. Only Alaba seems like a perfect replacement in the entire draft. Once he was gone, I made sure to read more about Hapgood and the more I read the more it seemed that despite his overall brilliance, his primary strength was still shutting down other team's wingers with his excellent mobility and assured tackling and in most games his wide defensive contribution and ball winning were his major achievements, so I went with Azpilicueta.

The offensive contributions Hapgood made were sporadic but significant and Azpilicueta, while decent in that regard, isn't at that level. There's no question this is my weakest pick, but only Lahm and Ashley Cole (Chelsea, not Arsenal) seemed even somewhat plausible replacements for Hapgood and ultimately I felt the defensive qualities Hapgood boasted were the most important things to replace here, and Chapman felt similarly as he quickly replaced the other wide fullback (Parker) with a more mobile, tenacious tackler. In the WM, the role of the fullback defensively was to shackle wingers and Azpilicueta excels at that.

That's fair enough I reckon.

but ultimately what stood out from reading about Bastin was that he scored a ton of goals with 2 excellent feet, started a bit more narrowly and looked to combine in the middle with James and Jack.

Mkhitryian, similarly has 2 great feet, a similar scoring record (bit worse than Bastin, more like 1 in 2.5 over the last 5 years) and the passing game Bastin boasted and Chapman loved (did not like high crosses as a tactic) and I think cutting in from the left he would score even more.

Bastin started 5-10 yards more centrally than Hulme and looked to combine with James and other central options

I understand your rationale but wouldn't you say Sanchez fits that role better as a goalscoring inside forward but someone who still boasts that creative touch, as opposed to Mkhitaryian who is primarily a hardworking creative force and someone whose goalscoring threat is a supplementary feature (a pretty significant feature nonetheless). As both Chester and Gio also pointed out perhaps Mkhitaryan still doesn't quite possess the star billing for the role yet, and maybe someone like Reus/Sanchez etc could have a more suitable gameplay and the star billing to remake Bastin's role (Bastin was amongst the greatest inside forwards of his era). Tbf, both Sanchez and Mkhitaryan are fairly complete in both aspects (goalscoring & creativity) and are both really industrious to boot so I can understand the dilemma that you face.

 

[Ecstatic]

3. William Gallas used to play as left-back or a left CB. So, it is maybe risky to use him in this position because I guess he has to cover the right flank if necessary.

 

[Ecstatic]

@NoPace should vote for himself because DavidG did it.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Pedernera and Moreno... We really were robbed of these two ( in terms of video evidence ). Only messi is capable of replicating either of their roles effectively .

Re giuly

Very rarely have ball away and was capable of dribbling, and at pace .His first touch and close control when through on goal are consistent with being able to use those skills to dribble effectively , ala Munoz .

Still most proud of the similarities defensively ( one big strong player and two players equally effective at full back as they are centre back ) and the left side of the attack , that bale and Henry are recreating .

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Re Akinfeev : he kicked the ball from his box almost right into joe harts hands yesterday . His range is phenomenal , not much to back it up though other than his " kicking " rating on his Fifa stats

 

[Chesterlestreet]

William Gallas used to play as left-back or a left CB.

Played at right back for Chelsea from time to time, unless I'm mistaken. As a CB I'm pretty sure he played comfortably on either side, so I don't think this is much of an issue.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He’s the kind of player that when you have him in your squad, instead of having 22, you have 24 or 25. He plays right-back, left-back, central defender on the right and on the left. I don’t remember a William mistake, I just remember his untouchable performances.

- Maureen

 

[Ecstatic]

I know Gallas was a superb defender: he was part of my short-list but I did want a pure Juventino defence

 

[harms]

Would also prefer more info on Akinfeev's ability on the ball as Carrizo was rather famed for his and was reportedly one of the pioneers for goalkeepers in this aspect. Perhaps @harms could shed more light on Akinfeev.

He has pretty much average ball-playing and passing skills. His main strength is his ability to be at the right place at the right time - this is why he was considered as VDS replacement (this and his great performances against us in the CL), they both made many "easy" saves because of their great positioning. His strength highlights his biggest weakness though - he literally don't jump often enough, and is conceding lots of goals that he should've at least tried to save.

Plus, here's the table that compares rfpl keepers and their willingness and ability to leave the goal (suddenly I found myself struggling with the translation - it's how well they emulate Neuer basically). Akinfeev is "Акинфеев", the dot in the lower left corner. He is by far the worst keeper in terms of controlling the box/sweeping in the very weak league. I remember Carrizo being described as the first (another fecking "first" one ) sweeper-keeper? Akinfeev is a very bad pick in that case. I don't know much about Carrizo though, so maybe I'm wrong here

 

[harms]

I will decide tomorrow (if ever). Very tough draft to vote in, really - especially if we're talking about ancient formations.
I have questions about Akinfeev and Stankovic (which DavidG himself considers a bad pick though, and it's impossible to find an ideal one). At first I read it as Savicevic, which convinced me that I should go to sleep rather than try and vote here.
I have a better understanding of La Machina than Chapman's Arsenal, so NoPace has an unfair advantage here. I'll try to research his side tomorrow if I'll have time

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I remember Carrizo being described as the first (another fecking "first" one ) sweeper-keeper?

Yes, something of the sort. He's at least known as one of the first to implement - well - NOT simply staying on the line as part of his game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Kudos to DavidG, it's a much harder formation to replicate.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Based on the way they played , I don't think too much importance should be placed on the goalkeeper. He's good with his feet and reasonably quick off his line , but he's the least important player in the team in terms of who I want to attempt to replicate .

Stankovic , the more I think about it , actually isn't that bad a replacement from the available pool . Aren't too many players who could play comfortably as a right sided attacking midfielder and a right sided defensive midfielder . His passing and technique ( see his two goals on the volley from goalkeeper clearances ) was at a world class level .

Moreno was a complete freak . Maybe neeskens is the player most able to play the role he had for river . Still , just so difficult .

 

[NoPace]

Played at right back for Chelsea from time to time, unless I'm mistaken. As a CB I'm pretty sure he played comfortably on either side, so I don't think this is much of an issue.

Yes, and Chapman routinely took central players and moved them wide (Bastin, Male). At that spot he looked at several replacement options and his main criteria seems to have been wanting his FBs to shut down opposing wingers with tenacity, strength and mobility and prime Mourinho-era fullback Gallas was pretty damn well suited for that. Also having played all 4 defensive positions well indicates he could take on this role.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Don't see any issue with gallas, though overrated as a player IMO he has all the necessary attributes to replace his historic counterpart

 

[Ecstatic]

He has pretty much average ball-playing and passing skills. His main strength is his ability to be at the right place at the right time - this is why he was considered as VDS replacement (this and his great performances against us in the CL), they both made many "easy" saves because of their great positioning. His strength highlights his biggest weakness though - he literally don't jump often enough, and is conceding lots of goals that he should've at least tried to save.

Plus, here's the table that compares rfpl keepers and their willingness and ability to leave the goal (suddenly I found myself struggling with the translation - it's how well they emulate Neuer basically). Akinfeev is "Акинфеев", the dot in the lower left corner. He is by far the worst keeper in terms of controlling the box/sweeping in the very weak league. I remember Carrizo being described as the first (another fecking "first" one ) sweeper-keeper? Akinfeev is a very bad pick in that case. I don't know much about Carrizo though, so maybe I'm wrong here

There are some mistakes in your table.

My comments below:

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Moreno was a complete freak . Maybe neeskens is the player most able to play the role he had for river . Still , just so difficult .

Neeskens? Why?

I'd think someone like Di Stefano or even Rui Costa would be a better fit.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The 1975 rule takes away most from this draft imo. A better and worthy recreation can be hand from all time no original players draft.

Still a worthy concept despite its tactical limitations. Love the challenge.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Neeskens? Why?

I'd think someone like Di Stefano or even Rui Costa would be a better fit.

Just for the defensive side of things . Like I said , so difficult to try and find someone remotely worthy .

 

[Ecstatic]

Difficult to choose between these 2 teams. Tomorrow, I will try to make a fair choice.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If we're getting technical, it should probably be pointed out that the version the manager is tasked with re-creating here isn't a Carrizo who had perfected his game – but a very young version of the player, who was just breaking into the team. That should cut the manager some slack – at least in my opinion.

Very young Bastin too – but he was known as a Wunderkind of sorts, so that's a bit different.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

If we're getting technical, it should probably be pointed out that the version the manager is tasked with re-creating here isn't a Carrizo who had perfected his game – but a very young version of the player, who was just breaking into the team. That should cut the manager some slack – at least in my opinion.

Very young Bastin too – but he was known as a Wunderkind of sorts, so that's a bit different.

Thanks , that's actually really helpful .

La maquina was not about the goalkeeper , and like you say this is an earlier version of Carrizo. Since I wasn't attaching so much importance to him , I wanted someone I knew COULD use his feet well , and someone's who has stayed in a country for a long time with one club ( obviously Carrizo moved on but he was there for a while )

The front 5 is ultimately what should be scrutinized the most . Bale Henry and giuly are fantastic replacements for their historic counterparts , and though it depends which side of the coin you are on , I believe Ibrahimovic CAN play the pedernera role.

The 3 defenders , well there isn't much to say . The role of a full back was much different back then , but I feel I've captured most of the 3 classic players abilities in the modern versions I selected .