Remake Draft R16 | DavidG vs NoPace

[Chesterlestreet]

Actually, there's something a bit off with the chronology, as it were: The blueprint you were given reads "1941" (as does the poll question here), but our friend Carrizo didn't play as early as that (he made his debut in 1945 and didn't properly establish himself as a first choice keeper before a couple of years after that).

Just clarifying that - it's a minor point, but yes, I would agree that it doesn't make sense to focus too much on Carrizo here: He may have been a progressive keeper (one of the first to wear gloves, not least!), etc., but he wasn't a major part of the Máchina (considered as the vintage between '41 and '47, which is the usual frame) we're talking about here.

 

[harms]

Just clarifying that - it's a minor point, but yes, I would agree that it doesn't make sense to focus too much on Carrizo here: He may have been a progressive keeper (one of the first to wear gloves, not least!), etc., but he wasn't a major part of the Máchina (considered as the vintage between '41 and '47, which is the usual frame) we're talking about here.

If that's the case then it's fair - the keeper's individuality is only important in a few teams in this draft. Although it can be used as a deciding argument for/against if the difference between the recreations is minimal

 

[harms]

Stankovic , the more I think about it , actually isn't that bad a replacement from the available pool . Aren't too many players who could play comfortably as a right sided attacking midfielder and a right sided defensive midfielder . His passing and technique ( see his two goals on the volley from goalkeeper clearances ) was at a world class level

Don't see it at all. Firstly, I don't think that Stankovic had world-class attributes such as passing or technique, not even close. Secondly, I'm not even sure why do you even use an actual midfielder (who played a lot as a holding midfielder too) instead of a hardworking forward

 

[Ecstatic]

I'm not sure but there are different versions of Stankovic: attacking midfielder at the start of his career and defensive midfielder at the end.

 

[sajeev]

Very well thought out sides. I don't think I should be voting on this draft, but I will make sure I read all the threads

 

[Joga Bonito]

Plus, here's the table that compares rfpl keepers and their willingness and ability to leave the goal (suddenly I found myself struggling with the translation - it's how well they emulate Neuer basically).

That's interesting, do they make tables for other leagues also or is it just for the rfpl?

 

[harms]

That's interesting, do they make tables for other leagues also or is it just for the rfpl?

Haven't seen other ones, so probably not

 

[Ecstatic]

Very hard task to recreate a team without video.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

We have been asked to get as close to the historic player as possible. For example, if we had to find someone to replace a Makelele, then the perfect replacement would be Kante. When it is impossible to find a player who represents the style and attributes, the next best thing is to get someone who can do as many of them as possible. Stankovic could most definitely attack, his range of passing was excellent and his stocky frame helped him keep a hold of the ball. He is also proven in the defensive midfield role, so putting it altogether you have someone who could theoretically fit the position and role Moreno played, even though he is nowhere near in terms of actual ability.

 

[Gio]

Stankovic , the more I think about it , actually isn't that bad a replacement from the available pool . Aren't too many players who could play comfortably as a right sided attacking midfielder and a right sided defensive midfielder . His passing and technique ( see his two goals on the volley from goalkeeper clearances ) was at a world class level .

Difficult boots to fill. The challenge is both one of style and one of quality. While Pedernera was pivotal to how River played, Moreno is often bracketed in the top tier of Argentinians alongside Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi. By many accounts he is recognised as one of the top 10 South Americans of all time. So in the absence of a suitable quality replacement, it is important to nail down the style and fit. I can see where you're getting at with Stankovic as a technically sound central-attacking midfielder hybrid, but his relative attacking contribution seems rather underwhelming even within the constraints of this pool. Moreno was a 1-in-2 man while Stankovic never managed double figures through his entire Serie A career. Different eras of course but a clear gap there.

That said I appreciate you're getting more goal threat from your Pedernera replacement and less goal threat from your Moreno, so collectively the overall effect may be similar.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

There are 2 players in this draft that would be a better fit there. If the stars align, and I get to reinforce with one of them, it'll look better.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think it should be stressed that this is a first round match: So, give both managers some slack with that in mind. The teams aren't - and can't be - ideal remakes at this stage, as certain players were simply never realistic options for the manager to pick.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Something which hasn't been discussed much, and which is stressed as important as per the remake "premise" here, is interplay:

Pedernera would not only drop deep (he once described his own game as that of a modern offensive midfielder) - he would also interchange with Labruna in a particular way: That was part and parcel of The Machine, the way the cogs would float about, so to speak - and the foremost reason the system is hailed as a sign of things to come. The more subtle, fluid roles (very different from the fixed positions of most teams back then) are reminiscent of a much more modern form of football - one that in reality didn't become the norm until decades later.

Pedernera dropping deep, orchestrating - Labruna operating as the de facto striker (more than an inside forward). That is a crucial aspect.

Personally I think Ibrahimovic and Henry fit the bill to a large extent - but it's the former who may be questioned to some extent if we're looking for perfection.

That said, I'm going for DavidG here - I think he edges it, and that he has hit closer to the target in terms of re-creating the overall feel of the side (as I see it - and it's obviously nothing but my personal take on it).

Both have done well, though - there's by no means much between 'em.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm familiar with Chapman's ideology and tactics but not so much with the personel in that team personally. I know more of La Machina and most of it is already commented. Stankovic is pretty underwhelming choice to be fair considering the quality of Moreno I'd probably gone with more creative player in that position.Otherwise DavidG has done pretty well in that tough task to recreate a really great at the time team.

As of NoPace I think he has fielded a good functioning team in terms of tactics but not sure about the personel I'll rather restrain myself from voting on this one.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Something which hasn't been discussed much, and which is stressed as important as per the remake "premise" here, is interplay:

Pedernera would not only drop deep (he once described his own game as that of a modern offensive midfielder) - he would also interchange with Labruna in a particular way: That was part and parcel of The Machine, the way the cogs would float about, so to speak - and the foremost reason the system is hailed as a sign of things to come. The more subtle, fluid roles (very different from the fixed positions of most teams back then) are reminiscent of a much more modern form of football - one that in reality didn't become the norm until decades later.

Pedernera dropping deep, orchestrating - Labruna operating as the de facto striker (more than an inside forward). That is a crucial aspect.

Personally I think Ibrahimovic and Henry fit the bill to a large extent - but it's the former who may be questioned to some extent if we're looking for perfection.

That said, I'm going for DavidG here - I think he edges it, and that he has hit closer to the target in terms of re-creating the overall feel of the side (as I see it - and it's obviously nothing but my personal take on it).

Both have done well, though - there's by no means much between 'em.

Think of the total football dutch team, and the way they changed positions with such ease. Now combine that with the arsenal teams of recent years who would rather walk the ball into the net. That's as close as an idea as you will get to how this team played.

This was my reference to the positional interchanges La Maquina were capable of. Will reference it more should I continue in the draft and it is a great point.

Henry and Zlatan are more than capable of swapping positions, and I'd even go as far to say that Henry could have played the Pedernera role. This video of Henry, look where he picks the ball up. Definitely Pedernera-esque.

Edit- the quote is from Joga but from my match write up

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Further evidence of ability to interchaneg ( i.e. be effective in all areas of the final 3rd)

Here we have Bale, admittedly in more of his free role for Spurs, popping up on the right hand side before dribbling infield and unleashing an unstoppable drive. Loastao could absolutely have scored several of these based on his style.


And in this clip we have a player in a Pedernera type position on the field playing the pass to Munoz/Giuly, highlighting the latters ability to adopt a different position if need be.

 

[Joga Bonito]

As of NoPace I think he has fielded a good functioning team in terms of tactics but not sure about the personel I'll rather restrain myself from voting on this one.

Posted this earlier in the thread but you should check out this site which has a brilliant database of historical British players

Fantastic site that is great for the historical British game in particular - http://spartacus-educational.com/PRESTONjamesA.htm

And after doing some digging I finally came across that source where I read this

I even read somewhere that his exit more or less signalled the end of La Maquina and that even di Stefano (young-ish version but still!) wasn't cerebral enough to take over his role .

https://imortaisdofutebol.com/2013/03/20/esquadrao-imortal-river-plate-1941-1947/

In 1946, the output Pedernera made the design of the machine as everyone knew was over. Replace the playmaker, Di Stéfano took ownership, but the style of play of " Saeta Rubia " was completely different, more offensive and less cerebral than its predecessor.

Have to use google translate but it's a pretty nice article nonetheless, with some decent player descriptions.

 

[harms]

The more I look at it, the less convincing Stankovic becomes. I can think of tons of players who will be better suited for this role, stylistically and skill-wise. Which is strange, considering that most of the team is spot-on. It's definitely a game-changer for me

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I can think of tons of players who will be better suited for this role, stylistically and skill-wise.

Names, man.

And were they readily available for drafting?

Moreno is extremely tricky - just like Beckenbauer, Charlton, Platini, Matthäus, etc. You have to make some sacrifices when it comes to players like that - none of the eligible picks can possibly do full justice to the original.

One question might be this: Disregarding the player's individual quality, how crucial is his role?

To what extent do you need a world beater to do the job a world beater did originally? Can you get away with letting a non-world beater do the same job - or will that make the whole thing collapse? Or at least make the whole thing significantly less...functional?

 

[harms]

Names, man.

And were they readily available for drafting?

Moreno is extremely tricky - just like Beckenbauer, Charlton, Platini, Matthäus, etc. You have to make some sacrifices when it comes to players like that - none of the eligible picks can possibly do full justice to the original.

One question might be this: Disregarding the player's individual quality, how crucial is his role?

To what extent do you need a world beater to do the job a world beater did originally? Can you get away with letting a non-world beater do the same job - or will that make the whole thing collapse? Or at least make the whole thing significantly less...functional?

I don't consider Stankovic a great passer, or a great goalscorer, or an outstanding dribbler, he was neither of those things and his game style reflected his weaknesses (or rather the absence of strong qualities). Neither is he a forward, which I consider Moreno to be. Actually I see Pedernera being closer to a midfielder than Moreno, even if I'd still pick a highly attacking mid or a versatile forward for both of them. I don't see a single quality/ability/skill in which Stankovic is similar to Moreno - apart from being quite strong that is.

For example you can use Rooney as your Moreno - nowhere near as technical but a very strong goalscorer and a decent passer with the habit of dropping to midfield, as close thing to a complete package that you can get from a contemporary forward. Or Totti - with less physicality, but with dribbling, passing and goalscoring (Totti is capable of filling so many roles in this draft, actually!). Anyway, even a good to decent hardworking and physical forward will do a better job than Stankovic as a Moreno impersonator, imo - that's regarding your topical question about the required level of the picked substitution.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good game @DavidG . Looking forward to see how your team shapes up.

Commiserations @NoPace . Cracking effort and very unfortunate to draw an equally strong team in the first round in itself.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

For example you can use Rooney as your Moreno - nowhere near as technical but a very strong goalscorer and a decent passer with the habit of dropping to midfield, as close thing to a complete package that you can get from a contemporary forward.

Yes...why not?

He'd be a better choice, I agree. But bear in mind what I said above: It's about how crucial the role is - and about availability, not least. Totti was always a first round pick, for instance - so if you consider the role crucial enough, you go for someone like that.

In terms of the movement of the machine, though, you could reasonably argue that Moreno's role is less important than those of Pedernera and Labruna - that is a possible and not implausible argument.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Well at least I know who I need to find a replacement for !!

Do we have to select a player from those already drafted or can it be someone completely new ?

 

[Ecstatic]

Congrats @DavidG

@NoPace has also made a good job.

It would be great to the have the 2 options regarding the new recruits.

 

[Enigma_87]

Posted this earlier in the thread but you should check out this site which has a brilliant database of historical British players

Thanks, mate. Will check it out, it's hard to get good info on some of the oldies.

Congrats @DavidG you have a very good team.

Personally I'd have used Iniesta in that Moreno role. Sure he's not one of the greatest goalscorers, but IMO would be much more apt choice with his vision, passing, dribbling, but also his work rate and the ability to move through channels and cover ground.

That or withdrawn forward - Totti, RvP, Neymar, Griezmann where of course you will sacrifice some elements of his game but of course you can't find a perfect copycat.

David Silva is also a good choice if we sacrifice the goal scoring threat Moreno was.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Thanks, mate. Will check it out, it's hard to get good info on some of the oldies.

Congrats @DavidG you have a very good team.

Personally I'd have used Iniesta in that Moreno role. Sure he's not one of the greatest goalscorers, but IMO would be much more apt choice with his vision, passing, dribbling, but also his work rate and the ability to move through channels and cover ground.

That or withdrawn forward - Totti, RvP, Neymar, Griezmann where of course you will sacrifice some elements of his game but of course you can't find a perfect copycat.

David Silva is also a good choice if we sacrifice the goal scoring threat Moreno was.

Dont see Iniesta as a great fit. Moreno was known for his aerial ability aswell and strength on the ball. Tevez would probably have been a good fit, especially for his tenacity off the ball and bullish strength.

 

[Enigma_87]

Dont see Iniesta as a great fit. Moreno was known for his aerial ability aswell and strength on the ball. Tevez would probably have been a good fit, especially for his tenacity off the ball and bullish strength.

Tevez does not have the passing range, the dribbling and the aerial ability neither. I mentioned Iniesta more of in terms of fitting into the role. Naturally he'll lack in certain aspects(don't agree on not being strong on the ball tho) but is better fit than Tevez for example. Tevez is far from the natural dribbling/playmaker role.

 

[Ecstatic]

“El Charro” Jose Manuel Moreno was the greatest footballer in the World in the early 1940s and is one of the most completed footballers of all-time. He has been regarded by Argentinean old-timers to be a better player than Alfredo Di Stefano who ever mentioned by himself that there are many greater footballers than him in Argentina during 1940s but they was not get opportunity to play in Europe, A few football fans around the World have ever heard his name because he never participated in World Cup due to the disappearance of tournament during the war-time and refusing to enter World Cup 1950 by Argentina football association. Moreno is the most outstanding player in the legendary famous team “ La Maquina”. He played as inside-right but sometimes played as attacking midfielder according to “Total Football” Style of play that La Maquina is the first team to play.Moreno was a superb technical player, was a world-class creator, passer and dribbler, scored many career goals with header. However, he is also known for his unprofessional attitude, often missed the training and smoking.

Unfortunately, players like Rivaldo or Edmundo O Animal are not unavailable.

I would try to pick a 'second striker', a versatile offensive player a mix of #10 & #9

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I could always find another left winger and put bale in the moreno role.... meets a lot of the requirments. Will be interesting to see who is available to choose for reinforcements, as I have one other hole to fill besides this.

 

[harms]

He'd be a better choice, I agree. But bear in mind what I said above: It's about how crucial the role is - and about availability, not least. Totti was always a first round pick, for instance - so if you consider the role crucial enough, you go for someone like that.

As I said, many decent to average hardworking forwards (mostly unpicked) that I would've liked much more in this role. And the availability is not the voters problem, really, it's a test to the manager's drafting strategy. For me Pedernera and Moreno were the ones with unique roles and abilities and the priority should've been to replace them first. That's my take on it. I guess it's pointless to go on and discuss it further as the game is already over and hopefully he'll solve this dilemma before the next round.

 

[harms]

I could always find another left winger and put bale in the moreno role.... meets a lot of the requirments. Will be interesting to see who is available to choose for reinforcements, as I have one other hole to fill besides this.

Much more interesting choice which would create some discussion (which is the point of this draft) - as there are definitely some qualities that they both share, even though they both were very different players and you can argue that those are the key qualities for his role in the team.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

And the availability is not the voters problem, really, it's a test to the manager's drafting strategy.

Yes, to an extent.

But within reason - that would be key. You can't expect the managers to pick an ideal XI straight away - the standard draft dynamic is present here too, largely, where part and parcel is to upgrade as you progress.

The Moreno role clearly wasn't prioritized here - that was a choice on the manager's part. He considered it more important to secure a top-of-the-line cast in other roles. And, as said above, to a degree I can understand that.

This isn't all that relevant as an argument for Stankovic - in particular - of course: It's not the greatest fit, as David admits himself - clearly a player who should be upgraded, as most would agree.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Take the Iniesta suggestion above: Whether he'd actually be a good fit is debatable, but the point would be that it's not realistic (at all) to land - say - both Henry and Iniesta for a first round match. That will take an insane amount of luck - so if the voters don't consider that at all, they're doing something wrong (in my opinion).

ETA Which doesn't pertain to considering the success of the remake as such - but specifically to the "should've gone for X instead" argument: The latter has to take availability into consideration, if not it becomes very unfair on the manager.

 

[Enigma_87]

Take the Iniesta suggestion above: Whether he'd actually be a good fit is debatable, but the point would be that it's not realistic (at all) to land - say - both Henry and Iniesta for a first round match. That will take an insane amount of luck - so if the voters don't consider that at all, they're doing something wrong (in my opinion).

ETA Which doesn't pertain to considering the success of the remake as such - but specifically to the "should've gone for X instead" argument: The latter has to take availability into consideration, if not it becomes very unfair on the manager.

I agree with this.

Since the draw was made I've put Ronaldinho and Totti as first round picks in Meazza's role. Both never made it to me before my first pick. Same can be said about other managers in some key positions.

It will take at least 3-4 reinforcements IMO to get a better remake for some teams that have to fill specific positions and there are only couple of players that fit the criteria.

For example Totti and Alaba are probably the most valuable picks in this draft purely on the basis that they tick many boxes in most of the teams.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I agree with this.

Since the draw was made I've put Ronaldinho and Totti as first round picks in Meazza's role. Both never made it to me before my first pick. Same can be said about other managers in some key positions.

It will take at least 3-4 reinforcements IMO to get a better remake for some teams that have to fill specific positions and there are only couple of players that fit the criteria.

For example Totti and Alaba are probably the most valuable picks in this draft purely on the basis that they tick many boxes in most of the teams.

I agree with this.

Since the draw was made I've put Ronaldinho and Totti as first round picks in Meazza's role. Both never made it to me before my first pick. Same can be said about other managers in some key positions.

It will take at least 3-4 reinforcements IMO to get a better remake for some teams that have to fill specific positions and there are only couple of players that fit the criteria.

For example Totti and Alaba are probably the most valuable picks in this draft purely on the basis that they tick many boxes in most of the teams.

He'll never make it back to me in reinforcement rounds but would probably select him to play the Pedernera role

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Yes, to an extent.

But within reason - that would be key. You can't expect the managers to pick an ideal XI straight away - the standard draft dynamic is present here too, largely, where part and parcel is to upgrade as you progress.

The Moreno role clearly wasn't prioritized here - that was a choice on the manager's part. He considered it more important to secure a top-of-the-line cast in other roles. And, as said above, to a degree I can understand that.

This isn't all that relevant as an argument for Stankovic - in particular - of course: It's not the greatest fit, as David admits himself - clearly a player who should be upgraded, as most would agree.

Because I knew I could get players extremely close to their counterparts, and had no idea how to go about replacing stankovic I went for the easier ones to justify. I did have another player in mind for him but someone else took him, and he is IMO at least twice as good a fit as Stankovic

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Because I knew I could get players extremely close to their counterparts, and had no idea how to go about replacing stankovic I went for the easier ones to justify.

Exactly - and that's one way to do it. Several other managers have opted for something similar: Rather than trying to secure the best possible (but still pretty far off) alternative for a GOAT or GOAT-ish original, you focus on other areas - legitimate strategy for my money: If you go through, you focus on the GOAT when you have a better chance of grabbing a suitable player from the reinforcement pool.