Replacing Casemiro

Dion said:
Happy to be corrected on this, but I'm pretty sure if we sell him before 30th June 2026 for less than £17.5m then we have to book the accounting loss for this year (which would mean this window). Which is why I pointed out his saved wages probably wouldn't be enough to cover the player needed to replace him.
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Before June 30, 2025 that would be true. A sale between July 1, 2025 and June 30, 2026 would hit the books for the 2025-26 financial period.
 
Dion said:
He was brought in because we needed a midfielder who could actually pass the ball, he clearly wasn't ever going to be a long term fixture in the team.
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I think, when he was picked up, everybody expected him to be a backup and stand in to Bruno in the AM position. He then played though in CM for more or less the entirety of the first season. This is what I meant, with Casemiro, I'd have no problem at all, if he stayed to be an backup without any claim to minutes or anything. But I am sure, he wants to play and as you say, he should play but I don't think, the PL is the right place for him. Certainly not for us. I'd be worried that if he stayed, he'd be a rotational player so would take minutes away from players who we, in the long run, would be better served with giving minutes to. This would be my main concern. Quite similar actually as with Maguire.
 
daba said:
Given we're now discussing the idea of extending his contract (something that 6 months was unthinkable)...

What is the minimum fee people would accept if he has offers this summer - 15m? 20m? 30m?
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Doesn't really matter, no one is going to give him the wages he gets now except a Saudi club and it's pretty clear that he doesn't want to go there, he has no incentive to leave and TBH it does appear he likes playing where he is
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Before June 30, 2025 that would be true. A sale between July 1, 2025 and June 30, 2026 would hit the books for the 2025-26 financial period.
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His book value before June 2025 for the 24/25 period is £30m~, if we sold him for next to nothing before the end of June we'd make a much more massive loss. I wasn't sure if I'd missed something about the way the final year is handled but apparently not, I think you might just have your years mixed up.
 
NZT-One said:
I think, when he was picked up, everybody expected him to be a backup and stand in to Bruno in the AM position. He then played though in CM for more or less the entirety of the first season. This is what I meant, with Casemiro, I'd have no problem at all, if he stayed to be an backup without any claim to minutes or anything. But I am sure, he wants to play and as you say, he should play but I don't think, the PL is the right place for him. Certainly not for us. I'd be worried that if he stayed, he'd be a rotational player so would take minutes away from players who we, in the long run, would be better served with giving minutes to. This would be my main concern. Quite similar actually as with Maguire.
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Sure, but again that's pretty much the textbook definition of filling a hole.

And as with everything you need a balance. Ideally we don't want Bruno playing back there very often, Eriksen is leaving, Mount seems pencilled in at AM when he's alive, that leaves us very short on experience and numbers in the middle.

It's the reason I have no issue with the Maguire extension either. It's all well and good saying we'd be better off giving experience to Fredricson, but if we're in a position where we have to play Yoro-him-Heaven with a couple of injuries then he's not really going to get much from that.

It's one thing to start signing players at that age, it's another thing to keep hold of the ones you already do have.
 
Dion said:
His book value before June 2025 for the 24/25 period is £30m~, if we sold him for next to nothing before the end of June we'd make a much more massive loss. I wasn't sure if I'd missed something about the way the final year is handled but apparently not, I think you might just have your years mixed up.
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If we're selling him it'll probably be in July or after (when the European window opens), so it would impact next year's books.

That would mean a ~£16m writedown in book value hitting next year's books.

On the flip side, if we keep him, we will be incurring £16m in amortization on next year's books, plus the wage expense (~£10m).

Hence my point that the net impact of a sale would be positive, regardless of transfer fee.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
If we're selling him it'll probably be in July or after (when the European window opens), so it would impact next year's books.

That would mean a ~£16m writedown in book value hitting next year's books.

On the flip side, if we keep him, we will be incurring £16m in amortization on next year's books, plus the wage expense (~£10m).

Hence my point that the net impact of a sale would be positive, regardless of trnsfer fee.
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Now add on the cost of replacing him, you can pretty much guarantee it doesn't look as positive
 
Big Ben Foster said:
If we're selling him it'll probably be in July or after (when the European window opens), so it would impact next year's books.

That would mean a ~£16m writedown in book value hitting next year's books.

On the flip side, if we keep him, we will be incurring £16m in amortization on next year's books, plus the wage expense (~£10m).

Hence my point that the net impact of a sale would be positive, regardless of transfer fee.
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But the impact would be negligible at best unless we get a significant fee for him which is unlikely. And then we are looking at having to buy a replacement when we already need more options.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
If we're selling him it'll probably be in July or after (when the European window opens), so it would impact next year's books.

That would mean a ~£16m writedown in book value hitting next year's books.

On the flip side, if we keep him, we will be incurring £16m in amortization on next year's books, plus the wage expense (~£10m).

Hence my point that the net impact of a sale would be positive, regardless of transfer fee.
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Ah, got you, think we're just talking around the issue. Yeah that's the same thing I was pointing out in my original post. If you sell him for less than £15-17.5m (based on whatever bonuses have been paid) you're eating into the money you free up by removing his wages off the books because of the loss against his amoritised fee, which is already unlikely to be enough to cover his replacement.

I wish his yearly wage was £10m, mind. It's about £18m if we are in the CL.
 
daba said:
Given we're now discussing the idea of extending his contract (something that 6 months was unthinkable)...

What is the minimum fee people would accept if he has offers this summer - 15m? 20m? 30m?
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For me we’d be absolutely daft to get rid without being certain we’re bringing in two midfielders of similar quality.
So whatever fee would be required for that to happen.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
For me we’d be absolutely daft to get rid without being certain we’re bringing in two midfielders of similar quality.
So whatever fee would be required for that to happen.
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I would like to see two come in even if he stays if Mainoo isn’t going to be an option under Amorim.

Yes that was a veiled moan but valid point nonetheless.
 
Amira said:
100% agree!
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We’ve been so weak in CM for so many years so it’d be typical us to go sell our only top quality CM and just bring in one new player (such as Ederson), only to find he’s not as good as Cas, and that we’d then have the same issue of only having on quality CM in the squad.

Has to be Cas, Ugarte + new CM else Ugarte + new CM + new CM.
 
NZT-One said:
Amorim isn't a fool, of course he will appreciate good form and will give playing time to those who are in good form. Not like there is large competiton for places in that area anyways. But going into the future, we shouldn't just look for good form at the end of a season. Casemiro has done well against Athletic. Especially so after they went down to 10 men. He was also important against Lyon, but was also on the pitch when we conceded 4 against them, 2 of them against 10 men.

Isn't the objective to move towards a better kind of football? Why then cling onto players who barely make the drag bearable? What next, when Eriksen and Lindelof end the season on a hattrick and two goal line clearances, do they get new contracts as well?

(intentional hyperbole, I honestly find it suprising, that after witnessing so many costly mistakes over the years, there doesn't seem to be much sensitivity for a repeating pattern)

Nice, lets have him and Maguire as useful players for our CL run then - on a nice 500k per week. Do you think thats the way to get the squad in order and the recruitment right?
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I concur.

Handing out new contracts or extensions to these guys would be a repeat of the mistakes we have been committing the last few years by handing out brand new contracts to players who suddenly found form in contract years or to "protect their value" or whatever other nonsense Woodward came up with to justify them. We should appreciate what these guys have done for the last few games in a substandard European competition where a Norwegian team can make the final, but also not forget that we finished 8th last season and are on course to finish 14th or lower this season with these guys. They have limitations that allow us to play only a certain style of football and we are found wanting as soon we try something else.

I hope Amo is smarter than believing that these guys will get us anywhere near the top or allow us to play a dominant & attractive brand of football. We need to be ruthless like Klopp or Arteta were after a period of assessment with their respective clubs.
 
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Honestly it seems it doesn't take much to impress some of United's faithful ,few games not being total liability just about does the trick.

Anyway I don't think that he is going anywhere in Summer we are stuck with him so here is hoping he can be useful in the meantime and we don't do anything stupid like extending his contract.
 
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gajender said:
Honestly it seems it doesn't take much to impress some of United's faithful ,few games not being total liability just about does the trick.
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Weird take an a few absolutely top drawer performances. ”Not being a total liability”.
feck me.

Against Lyon it was proper ”cometh the hour cometh the man” performance, Roy of the Rovers shit. Without it our season was done, dead and buried.
Against Athletic it was a proper 9/10 performance we’d have been happy with from any midfielder in our entire history in an important semi.

Check his performance thread since Ruud’s short spell which was still early in the season, the majority of games he’s been one of our best players this season.

But hey, let’s just pretend all he did was not be a total liability.
 
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A very likeable character and i bet he must be very popular with players however rational thinking must come first. Hes 33 and there were times where he struggled with physicality and pace. Come summer, he should be moved on. Now who should replace him? I still think that a DLP is our most urgent need in our midfield area. Someone who can receive and pass the ball under pressure in deep area, so that Bruno and Cunha can do what they do best, creating chances.
 
Does Wharton fit Amorim's system?

He doesn't exactly play like Casemiro - but there was videos showing how we played a 3151 shape with a sole midfielder in front of the defence.

I think I prefer this over 2 CDM type players. However targeting Wharton really depends on ic Amorims wants a Carrick like CDM.

Mainoo has had a worse season than Garnacho and looks like the player that doesnt fit the system the most.
 
Casemiro season one under ETH was good playing a more direct counter attack style with the defensive line set a little bit deeper.

Casemiro season two under ETH where he really tried to bed in his style was a disaster and by the end of the season he couldn't get in the team and if you believe some of the reports he pulled out of the cup final when he found out he was on the bench. Now we can do the chicken and egg argument about was that Casemiro's drop off or the way the team was being setup but both are probably a little bit true.

Under Amorim who has clearly adjusted his approached once he realised the plan A (pressing from the front) wasn't going to work with these players has made us a bit more solid, dropped our defensive line a bit and tried to utilise the counter a bit more. That suits Casemiro but it's not going to get you right up at the top of the league which is where we want to be.

Casemiro has shown in the second half of the season that he could still do a very good job for another team in a different league where the physical side of the game isn't so demanding. Problem is no one is going to pay us 15m for him and then pay him 15m a season.
 
He was the best DM in the world at madrid but looking at his excellent performances lately he's been very involved in scoring, sniffing chances, and creating for others which helped us massively, something to keep in mind when looking for his replacement.

Or maybe he simply adapted to the fact that our CFs aren't threats to most teams...
 
stretford ender58 said:
Casemiro has shown in the second half of the season that he could still do a very good job for another team in a different league where the physical side of the game isn't so demanding. Problem is no one is going to pay us 15m for him and then pay him 15m a season.
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If we do get Champions League next season Casemiro will be a useful player, particularly for away games when we drop a bit deeper.
 
Very all rounded player for a DM. If only he was younger. He’s got some vision to his game, he’s a threat at set pieces. Be hard to replace him for a like for like player
 
Quagmaguire said:
Does Wharton fit Amorim's system?

He doesn't exactly play like Casemiro - but there was videos showing how we played a 3151 shape with a sole midfielder in front of the defence.

I think I prefer this over 2 CDM type players. However targeting Wharton really depends on ic Amorims wants a Carrick like CDM.

Mainoo has had a worse season than Garnacho and looks like the player that doesnt fit the system the most.
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He’s been injured for large parts of it. Amorims been using Mainoo a bit further up recently and he’s been doing alright. Been getting shots away something we can’t say our ST as been doing. The goal vs Lyon was a typical Mainoo goal.
 
The problem we have here is that most of his standout performances are in Europe, whereas he tends to get overrun more in the PL. Perhaps CL qualification will dictate whether he stays or goes?
 
Big Ben Foster said:
I have seen this exact same line of thought brought up countless times over the last 12 years to justify contract renewals that shouldn't have occurred. Feels like deja vu.

In fact I can guarantee that even if somebody like Lindelof were to go on a run of good form between now and the end of the season, there will be calls to keep him on as a squad player.
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The problem is that Lindelof is like 7th choice CB and still played something like 17 games in all comps. Probably would have got more if he wasn't injured. The previous couple of seasons in the 20's. Casemiro and Maguire have stepped up when needed and played 20 plus games. All these players are experienced, solid professionals and we have really needed that experience. Hate them all you want but these players have stepped up and contributed season after season. Sure I agree they shouldnt be first choice. But where are you going to find a better back up to De Light than Maguire? Which CB are we getting for free that will play 7th choice with no issues and be experienced? Is the idea just to play kids from the academy?
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
We’ve been so weak in CM for so many years so it’d be typical us to go sell our only top quality CM and just bring in one new player (such as Ederson), only to find he’s not as good as Cas, and that we’d then have the same issue of only having on quality CM in the squad.

Has to be Cas, Ugarte + new CM else Ugarte + new CM + new CM.
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Weird take an a few absolutely top drawer performances. ”Not being a total liability”.
feck me.

Against Lyon it was proper ”cometh the hour cometh the man” performance, Roy of the Rovers shit. Without it our season was done, dead and buried.
Against Athletic it was a proper 9/10 performance we’d have been happy with from any midfielder in our entire history in an important semi.
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I guess each to their own, I personally have not the slightest of clues how somebody would come to that conclusions though.

I made a joke earlier but the more I think about it, if we'd win the EL by a goal from Lindelof or an assist of Eriksen, I am sure people would fecking start calling for them to be kept as useful squad players.
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Check his performance thread since Ruud’s short spell which was still early in the season, the majority of games he’s been one of our best players this season.

But hey, let’s just pretend all he did was not be a total liability.
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Thats one of the main issues with some fans in my eyes. They can't stop comparing our players with the rest of our own team. The only reason that made sense in the past was that we had a fecking awesome team. It was a huge achievement to get attributed with "a better season than than Rooney" or stuff like that. But these days, it means feck all. I mean, I guess we can look at performances differently as it seems to be quite subjective but ffs, lets just look at results then.

Sometimes I get the feeling that performances get blown way out of proportion because of the occasion. It happened with Amrabat in FA Cup final, now it happens with Casemiro.

Insanity said:
I concur.

Handing out new contracts or extensions to these guys would be a repeat of the mistakes we have been committing the last few years by handing out brand new contracts to players who suddenly found form in contract years or to "protect their value" or whatever other nonsense Woodward came up with to justify them. We should appreciate what these guys have done for the last few games in a substandard European competition where a Norwegian team can make the final, but also not forget that we finished 8th last season and are on course to finish 14th or lower this season with these guys. They have limitations that allow us to play only a certain style of football and we are found wanting as soon we try something else.

I hope Amo is smarter than believing that these guys will get us anywhere near the top or allow us to play a dominant & attractive brand of football. We need to be ruthless like Klopp or Arteta were after a period of assessment with their respective clubs.
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Agree wholeheartedly. I guess, thats why it is so important to acknowledge that there is so much more than just black and white. A player can play well, a player can contribute and you can be happy to have a certain player in a certain moment of time. But as soon as talk about contracts start, you have to make sure, you try to be as pragmatic as it gets.
 
Teja said:
Are there any reports? The midfield is one of the most important areas to strengthen for me and I haven't seen any links at all which is worrying. Ederson was the only one I saw in ~Jan.
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Yeah worrying lack of solid links in the midfield area,ideally someone who is athletic ball progressor but can't think of anyone who fits that criteria
 
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croadyman said:
Yeah worrying lack of solid links in the midfield area,ideally someone who is athletic ball progressor but can't think of anyone who fits that criteria
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Zambo Anguissa from Napoli. Available on a free.
 
i have no problem keeping him on a new contract + reduction in wages. We lack experience leaders/winners in our team.
 
croadyman said:
Who would you take on the free agent market, not just necessarily midfield but all areas?
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Berke Özer
Ola Aina
Jonathan Tah (if we win EL)
Ty Mitchell
Zambo Anguissa
Angel Gomes
Jonathan David

Not exactly sold on all of those but in our financial situation we should be adding a few freebies every season and selling off the ones that don’t work out for profit.
 
Forgetting the wages which really muddies things, I'd be happy to keep him for longer. We need a mix of ages and experience in the squad. Its a young squad, training with casemiro everyday wont do them any harm.
He's here for another year anyway. I'd be partial to an extension beyond that but it would be impossible to justify at the current wage. We'll see how he fares next season
 
msjmohd83 said:
i have no problem keeping him on a new contract + reduction in wages. We lack experience leaders/winners in our team.
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We've finished 8th and 15th the last two seasons with Casemiro's experience and winning mentality. Either we'd have been relegated twice without him, or his experience and winning mentality isn't actually doing that much for us.
 
Why don't we just keep him for another year and let him go on a free year after? I am not sure why we want to extend his contract.
 
Tallis said:
Why don't we just keep him for another year and let him go on a free year after? I am not sure why we want to extend his contract.
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I don’t think there are any reports we do.

If he shows some great form again next year alongside some new signings and a stronger team, I could then see us offering a Giggs-esque extension on a 1 year deal on much lower wages.
Right now though, I don’t think United have a clue what to do. He’s still clearly our best CM and once again yesterday we turned to absolute dog poo on set pieces without him.
I’m certain INEOS earmarked him directly along with Rashford and Antony as players with good contracts that they wanted out of the door. However no-one in their right mind can watch us and think we’d be better off without him, and feck me we are shite as we are.
If Amorim has any balls he’ll fight tooth and nail to keep him unless he gets in two absolutely top notch CM’s to replace him.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I don’t think there are any reports we do.

If he shows some great form again next year alongside some new signings and a stronger team, I could then see us offering a Giggs-esque extension on a 1 year deal on much lower wages.
Right now though, I don’t think United have a clue what to do. He’s still clearly our best CM and once again yesterday we turned to absolute dog poo on set pieces without him.
I’m certain INEOS earmarked him directly along with Rashford and Antony as players with good contracts that they wanted out of the door. However no-one in their right mind can watch us and think we’d be better off without him, and feck me we are shite as we are.
If Amorim has any balls he’ll fight tooth and nail to keep him unless he gets in two absolutely top notch CM’s to replace him.
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That is my preferred option - no issues with Casemiro staying another year but we really should be signing two CMs over the next 1-2 summers so we can transition him out by 2026. Ideally, we can sign two CM in summer 2025 but we have so many gaps.
 
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