Formation: 433
Playing Style: Attacking direct style with a bit of possession thrown in
Defensive Line: Normal
Preferred Zone of Action: Balanced, with a slight inclination centrally
Player Roles
Edwin van der Sar - Goalkeeper - Shot-stopping/defense organising/ball-playing goalie
Stefan Reuter - Right back - Support
Lucio - Center Back - Adventurous
Manolo Sanchis - Central Back - Balanced
Maxime Bossis - Left back - Attack
Uli Stielike - Defensive Midfielder - Ball playing destroyer
Zvonimir Boban - Central Midfielder - Creative all round midfielder
Gianni Rivera - Playmaker - #10
Jupp Heynckes - Left Forward - Inside left
Roberto Donadoni - Winger - Right Winger/midfielder
Jimmy Greaves - Striker - Spearhead
Defence:
A well-rounded back five with all five defensive components being excellent on the ball (a trend that is prevalent throughout the side) and being solid defensively. van der Sar would be the last line of defense here and would be tasked with organising the defense and providing his trademark composure and security at the rearguard. CL and WC winner Lucio and Real legend Sanchis will take reigns over the central areas, with the former playing a more dominant role off the ball and an adventurous role on it - his rampaging forays forward are certainly a nice weapon to have in the arsenal. Stielike will hold the fort whenever Lucio decides to venture forward. Manolo Sanchis plays a more balanced centre-back role and his ball-playing skills and reading of the game will mesh well with the dominant Brazilian. Reuter will play a supporting full-back role to Donadoni and it makes for a truly imposing flank with both players capable of leaving their man for dead and making life difficult for them off the ball. Reuter also has the engine and the sheer pace to square up well against the brilliant Conti. Bossis, one of the finest full-backs in this draft, will play as an attacking full-back who has the license to venture forward. He will look to provide width on the left and supplement Heynckes's roving around the inside left channels.
Midfield:
Stielike will be the bedrock in the engine-room providing the dynamism, tactical nous and physicality in the middle. The Gladbach and Real Madrid legend certainly knew a thing or two about exhibiting his skills on the ball, having excelled as a libero for both club and country. He will play as the holding midfielder here, facilitate ball retention and occasionally venture forward to mix things up. Boban is the ideal glue between the magical Rivera and the resolute Stielike, with his multi-faceted attacking play supplementing Rivera's creativity and his work off the ball proving Stielike with ample support. A truly magical midfielder on his day, Boban's tactical malleability and undeniable quality constituted for a top notch midfield package. Boban will primarily look to play a support act to Rivera on the ball, bridging defense and offense when it calls for it and put in a shift off the ball.
The heart beat of the side, The Golden BoyGianni Rivera, will quite simply be the playmaking maestro whom the side revolves around. One of the greatest playmakers of all time, ballon d'Or winning Rivera was a sublime genius with unparalleled vision but also a rapier like threat on the ball with his phenomenal dribbling skills - having started out as a winger. Rivera would be the prime source of the supply line and will look to link up with two excellent ball playing midfielders behind him, feed the ravenous duo of Heynckes-Greaves, stretch play with the full-backs/Donadoni or weave his magic by himself. He has the freedom to do as he pleases.
Forwards:
A severely underappreciated Gladbach and German legend, Jupp Heycknes was an apex goalscorer of the highest quality during the German golden age - the 70s. He went toe to toe with Der Bomber in the early seventies with a whopping 130 goals in 3 seasons during 1972-75. Whilst he was unlucky to miss out on Germany WC win due to injury (started both their opening group games before injury struck), he was a critical component of their greatest ever side in 1972 which won the Euros. Not much needs to be said of his exploits with Gladbach. Heynckes wasn't 'just' a goalscoring supremo, he was an all-round player with pace, directness and ability on the ball, which frequently allowed him to play as an inside left/right - the role he played for Germany in 1972. Heynckes would primarily be roaming around the inside left channels and would also look to support Bossis on the left flank. A list of his accomplishments across various competitions.
3rd highest goalscorer in Bundesliga history
Bundesliga top scorer: 1973–74, 1974–75
European Cup top scorer: 1975–76
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup top scorer: 1973–74
UEFA Cup top scorer: 1972–73, 1974–75
Scored five goals in 2 UEFA Cup Finals
23 goals in 21 games in the UEFA Cup - only member in the top 10 goalscoring lists to have scored at a ratio of over a goal per game.
51 goals in 64 matches in European club competitions - Average of 0.8 goals per match only bettered by compatriot Gerd Müller
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 1972
Yet another Rossoneri legend, Donadoni was a fixture down the entire right flank for two great Milan sides, with his trickery and pace being key facets to Milan's wide play. His tactical intelligence meant that he excelled in both Sacchi's high octane 4-4-2 and Capello's rigid Mialn sides. Not only was he an inventive player on the ball with pin-point crossing ability, he also possessed midfielder-ish graft which made him an influential and consistent presence on the right flank. Donadoni would primarily be looking to stretch play on the right here, provide the ammunition for Greaves/Heynckes and also link-up with the overlapping Reuter.
At the tip of it all is goalscoring supremo Jimmy Greaves. The all-time top scorer in the history of the top 5 European Leagues, Greavesy was an absolutely lethal forward who scored goals out of nothing. He bagged the English League Top Scorer title a stunning 6 times, scored 220 goals in 321 appearances for Spurs, 124 goals in 157 appearances for Chelsea and scored a mind boggling 44 goals in 57 caps for England. He will be exploiting the channels, occupying the centre-backs and simply gobble up the service coming his way. All he needs is a whiff of a chance and the ball will be at the back of the net.
Formation: 442 Playing Style: Direct Defensive Line: Normal Preferred Zone of Action: Wide/Central Midfield
Tactics
The team starts from the back with Jurgen Croy between the sticks. The talented German keeper will be protected by a no-nonsense central defensive partnership consisting of Oscar Ruggeri and Murtaz Khurtsilava. Murtaz was comfortable on the ball, and will look to distribute from the back, or cary the ball forward when necessary. Ruggeri will continue to be the physical beast he was known to be.
We have two full backs flanking them who are able to put in a solid shift defensively, and also offer an outlet going forward at times as well. Tommy Gemmell was part of the successful Lisbon Lions team, while Johnny Carey is considered one of the earliest United legends. Both will be defenders first, and have players ahead of them who will not shy away from putting in a defensive shift to aid them when necessary.
The centre midfield consists of two all round players who will both bust a lung, and continue to battle on. Soren Lerby, who even played more than one game in a day, and Gerhard Hanappi, considered to be one of the top Austrian footballers of all time, will be a match for any midfield they face. Both comfortable on the ball, driving forward, they'll look to link our team from front to back. Neither will want to miss out on a battle in the middle of the field, and can be counted on to put in a shift on both sides of the ball.
The wings are going to be taken care of with two idols of their clubs. John Barnes on the left, and Bruno Conti on the right. Barnes dazzled his way up and down the flank for Liverpool and England, able to score and create, and he'll be a handful for any right back he faces. Conti was able to run the wing virtually on his own. He'll look to use his trickery and pace here to put crosses in to feed our beast up top.
Playing in behind the striker is Adolfo Pedernera. A name that may not be as well known as some legends of the game, he's often considered one of the top South American players of all time. Many that saw him play have placed him in the upper echelon of talented playmakers, and he was the key part of the successful La Maquina. Able to drift out to the flank if Barnes moves centrally, he's placed in a set up here to allow him to thrive, with movement around him, and a goalscoring outlet ahead.
Speaking of, leading the line we have German legend, Uwe Seeler. While he was known for being a beast in the air, he was also extremely talented with the ball at his feet. With the creative players around him, he will look to bring them in to play, as well as getting his head (or feet) on the end of crosses. A physical force that would get the best of most defensive match ups, we feel we have a set up here to get the best out of him.
Key factors
- Defenders who are able to step forward. Midfielders who are able to play both ways. Wingers who will track back and put in a defensive shift. We have players who will constantly be moving and working, meaning no player will be left with a mismatch defensively, or space to exploit.
- Barnes and Conti give us the ability to stretch the play. The more we can stretch the midfield open, the more room it leaves for Pedernera to run the game. The more we can stretch the defense, the more room it leaves for Seeler to find his way on to the end of a cross or through ball.
- The all round ability of our attacking players. Seeler is dominant in the air, and just as dangerous with the ball at his feet. Pedernera was the heartbeat for one of the most successful club teams in South American history. Lerby and Hanappi are non-stop, and will offer fantastic cover for each other, offering a solid defensive shield, and a goalscoring threat from deeper. Barnes can beat a player off the dribble, ghost into the box and score a tap in, or link with the midfielders. Conti was practically a one-man wing and had the skill to beat his marker, and put the ball into the box.
Like Joga's fullbacks but give the edge to Skizzo/Pat's CB's. Overall both look great considering the formation played. Though simple due to personal preference, I'd give the edge to RT/Joga. VDS
Love Skizzo/Pat's midfield. Two great hard working wide men with that cracking midfield duo. Perfectly built. In RT/Joga's team, not really convinced on Boban's role here. I've always thought of him as a AM/CM hybrid not exactly a DLP type...Is this playing him much deeper than what he did in his career? I think he has the work rate to do it, but it'll be a unfamiliar role to him.
Like Skizzo/Pat's attacking combo better too. The Master was superb AM/IF and perfect foil for Seeler. easy to see them working in tandem superbly. Heynckes/Donadoni needs a bit of thought. I had Donadoni as a 4-4-2 type hardworking winger. A good supporting cast but not really a goal threat. Rate his creativity also below Conti. Looking holistically can see them working with Boban moving up and Donadino's graft..but somehow doesn't feel as natural as Skizzo/Pat's.
It'd be a 2-1 in favor of Skizzo/Pat at end of 90" imo.
He isn't playing as a DLP (ala Alonso, Pirlo, Albertini etc)in a deep static role here though, but rather as a CM who has more tactical freedom and range of movement with a DM in Stielike alongside him. If we are looking for modern comparisons I'd equate it to Modric's role as a creative all-round midfielder, in some ways.
He was versatile and was capable of playing behind the striker or even as a wide midfielder of sorts on either flank, but I'd certainly classify him as a central midfielder all things said and done.
Here's a match compilation of him that I'd say is well worth a watch if you have any doubts as to his suitability in a central midfield role
Indeed he was, but he wasn't just someone who had to play in a 4-4-2 and it's fairly easy to see him working in a 4-2-3-1. His role (stretching play/providing service etc) suits him and his teammates roles complement him too.
Don't see the need for a goal threat on the right with Greaves and Heynckes, as the inside left, but rather a player who could stretch play for the central players and provide service from wider areas - for my primary goalscoring threats and Rivera who was a decent goalscorer himself. Donadoni fits the role to a tee, esp with Reuter to dovetail with.
Would appreciate it if you could expand on this statement further. It's a fairly straightforward set-up with a DM, an all round CM, a #10, a goalscoring inside left, a winger and a goalscoring centre forward. Of course, take nothing away from Skizzo/Pat's team and they've constructed an excellent and tactically cohesive side, but I don't see why our formation/set-up isn't cohesive or natural relatively.
Would appreciate it if you could expand on this statement further. It's a fairly straightforward set-up with a DM, an all round CM, a #10, a goalscoring inside left, a winger and a goalscoring centre forward. Of course, take nothing away from Skizzo/Pat's team and they've constructed an excellent and tactically cohesive side, but I don't see why our formation/set-up isn't cohesive or natural relatively.
Possibly because it's a bit different to the mental perception of the players I had in my mind, Jupp, Boban and Donadoni in particular. It's an excellent team overall and no obvious faults or weakness per se.
Yeah, unfortunate timing. 7 posts so far in about 8 hours. Just getting a chance now to sit down and write anything down. Ah well, unavoidable this time unfortunately.
anyway, in terms of the match up. I think you covered most of what we feel is in our favour.
Not gonna say a bad word about the opposition, because it was some wonderful players in Greaves, Rivera etc. But there's areas where I think the match up leans towards our advantage.
Comparing like for like players is usually a bit of a waste of time, especially as they aren't directly competing against each other, so I'll avoid that discussion, because both teams have great players in similar positions (Seeler/Greaves, Pedernera/Rivera etc)
Conti-Seeler is a fantastic outlet, and I'd argue the clearest in terms of a direct threat. Conti's delivery, with the movement and aerial ability of Seeler, would trouble just about any defense.
Highlight clip of him vs Santos in 62. One goal and Two assists. Headed goal at just after 6 minutes in.
Not sure how well Sanchis and Lucio are equipped to stop him from having a match winning impact.
The midfield battle is an interesting one. We have two genuine all rounders, who were tremendous workhorses, and quality players. Lerby and Hanappi are both able to do it all in the attacking and defending phase. We feel it benefits us, especially as its a 2 man midfield, but also because it gives us a bit more flexibility in terms of competing against a more static Stielike, and a Boban who is playing as a conductor to just shuttle the ball along to Rivera.
With Ruggeri positioned to match up with the cutting in runs of Heynckes, it gives Conti a bit more freedom on the wing without a left winger/midfielder there to track him.
On the other side, Donadoni is similar to Conti in his ability to be up and down the wing (maybe at a level below Conti) which would be needed since Barnes offers a threat with his ability on the ball, and his runs into the box to meet crosses and lay offs.
Capable of absolutely magical moments like this..
as well as some of his all round play as one of the Kop legends
With him and Conti on the wings, we have the players to both stretch the field, and beat a man to create chances and goals.
Conti-Seeler is a fantastic outlet, and I'd argue the clearest in terms of a direct threat. Conti's delivery, with the movement and aerial ability of Seeler, would trouble just about any defense
Conti and Seeler is a great duo and I love them to bits myself. However, I would say it's debatable that it's the clearest route/direct threat on the pitch. Conti has to contend with one of the finest full-backs in the draft in Bossis but I'd agree with you in that Seeler is better than either of my CBs individually.
Tactically they are a good fit with Lucio being aerially excellent and possessing the physicality to deal with Seeler and likewise Sanchis who was as complete as they come. No doubt I'd still give Seeler the edge due to his sheer quality but I wouldn't question the centre-backs fit in dealing with Seeler, esp Lucio. On the other hand, I'd say Khurtsilava and Ruggeri lack the necessary burst/turn of pace to deal with the quicksilver Greaves who was almost Romario-like with his explosiveness and reactions in and around the box.
A more athletic/pacy centre-back to partner either of Khurtsilava or Ruggeri might have been more ideal in dealing with Greaves imo. Esp since there is boundless creativity flowing throughout the team and there won't be a lack of Greaves squaring up against your centre-backs or getting on the end of through-balls/crosses etc in and around the box, esp when running the channels which he was brilliant at - an aspect which Ruggeri and Khurtsilava might struggle to get on grips with.
We have two genuine all rounders, who were tremendous workhorses, and quality players. Lerby and Hanappi are both able to do it all in the attacking and defending phase. We feel it benefits us, especially as its a 2 man midfield, but also because it gives us a bit more flexibility in terms of competing against a more static Stielike, and a Boban who is playing as a conductor to just shuttle the ball along to Rivera.
No doubt, both are terrific all-rounders and well, Lerby (okay I better stop there before RedTiger kills me). However, tactically, both of them have to deal with the midfield battle against Boban-Stielike, shuttle back and forth and most importantly deal with Rivera. Pedernera could certainly put in a shift indeed but it's going to take more even the stakes against the impact of the best playmaker in this draft (imo) and that would be a crucial factor in balancing out whatever dynamic/physicality edge your midfield duo has over mine.
Esp since neither of Ruggeri/Khurtisilava were the stepping out and closing space, aiding the midfield battle off the ball, etc type of centre-backs which might have been more optimal in a 4-4-2 with two dynamic B2B midfielders. The Russian was a great player on the ball though and that shouldn't be discounted, but him or Ruggeri might be out of their comfort zones finding themselves against the deadly Rivera/Greaves duo who were both absolute livewires and brilliant at leaving their men for dead with either their explosiveness/dribbling skills. We do have Wimmer on the bench and your description of your midfielders could be easily applied for both of Stielike-Wimmer. However, the all-round Boban's creative edge made more sense in this match-up, in supplementing Rivera and gaining us the edge in the middle.
Gianni Rivera was crowned king of European football in 1969. Paolo La Vecchia pays tribute to the epitome of calcio cool
Gianni Rivera was the original Golden Boy even before he became the first Italian-born winner of the Ballon d’Or. It was a nickname given to him by the legendary Gipo Viani, the ultra-defensive Milan co-Coach who instantly fell in love with the Bambino d’Oro, as he called him, during a scouting mission to Alessandria.
So excited with what he had found, Viani phoned Milan President Andrea Rizzoli for permission to sign him. The Rossoneri chief was unsure, especially given that the unproven midfielder was just out of school and would cost him a massive 90m Lire - a record transfer fee and that too on a frail teenager.
“President, there was fog,” Viani is noted as saying. “You could only see silhouettes and at times you couldn’t tell whether it was him or Schiaffino! Sign him President, listen to me.” Rizzoli, who at the time couldn’t even remember the boy’s name, agreed. It was the finest purchase he ever made.
Rivera, initially, was sent back to Alessandria on loan in order to bulk up given his fragile 16-year-old frame. But even on his return to Milan, boss Nereo Rocco had his doubts until he gave him a game. Once in the side, he basically stayed there for the next 19 years.
“I want my team to play, to have fantasy, from the first minute until the last, Rivera is the only player who can give that to me,” said Rocco with his trademark Trieste twang. “I don’t want to exaggerate, because at the end of the day this is only football, but Rivera is a genius.”
Rivera was undoubtedly class personified, a player ahead of his time with vision, finesse, as well as the hair and film star good looks to boot. "His neck is like that of a swan,” Giorgio Bocca once wrote. “His eyes and tuft belong to a rare and precious bird. When he is in full flow, he reminds me of a heron." Fellow writer Gianni Mottana added: "He doesn’t touch the ball. He brushes it. He even seems to float over the ground when he runs."
Rivera attracted a generation of fans to the game, which he played with grace, vision and an effortless poise that brought him as many raptured friends as enemies and inspired three books, two in the Sixties and one, Nato a Betlemme ('Born in Betlehem'... enough said), a couple of years ago.
Sporting the legendary number 10 that still defines the archetypal brainy player in Italian football, Rivera led Milan to three Scudettos, four Italian Cups, two European Cups, two Cup Winners' Cups, one Intercontinental Cup.
He was named European Player of the Year in 1969, only a few months after Milan had been the last team to truly stop the progress of up-and-coming Ajax in the European Cup Final at the Santiago Bernabeu in Madrid. Six years after the 2-1 European Cup triumph over a Eusebio led Benfica, where Rivera provided both the goals and came in 2nd behind Yashin in the ballon d'Or rankings - at just 20 years old.
“For me, it was perhaps the most important thing I won,” Rivera stated. “The Scudetti and the European Cups were significant, but they were won with the team. This honour was particularly special because of the way it was structured given the involvement of so many people. Saying that it was indispensable to be involved in European competition with my club.”
The European Cup Final of 1969 was undoubtedly a vital component in his personal victory. Playing against an Ajax team which included the emerging Johan Cruyff, Rivera set up two of Pierino Prati’s hat-trick in a 4-1 demolition. The first assist was with a visionary back-heel, the second a perfectly weighted cross which had goal written all over it as it poetically glided through the air.
Milan ended that campaign second in Serie A, but finished the year as world champions after a 4-2 win over Estudiantes.
His elegant style belied an outspoken personality which led him to clash with almost everyone who was someone in Italian football: he accused referees of being biased and of plotting Milan's downfall in a couple of Serie A campaigns, he famously hinted that by employing a libero Italy were becoming too defensive and were giving up one man when playing against the world's top sides.
He openly criticized National team supervisor Walter Mandelli for leading a newspaper-inspired crusade against him during the 1970 World Cup at a time when, as he admitted a few months ago to monthly magazine Calcio 2000, he felt he was in one of the best shapes of his life: this perceived ostracism led to his exclusion from the final against Brazil after he'd scored the winning goal in the 4-3 World Cup semi-final thriller against West Germany.
The fact that team coach Ferruccio Valcareggi only sent him on with six minutes to play and Italy already down 3-1 deepened Rivera's bitterness.
Not only Rivera's, apparently: when the Azzurri arrived back to Italy after the final, they were expecting a warm welcome at the airport but found instead an angry crowd, disappointed with the meek surrender in the last game, and Rivera was the only one who not only escaped criticism.
He emerged as the misunderstood hero of the occasion, his benching against Brazil seen as the real reason for Italy's failure to trouble Brazil's rearguard.
While Rivera never enjoyed the success he deserved for the Italian national side, where he suffered the so-called staffetta – relay – with Sandro Mazzola, he was an institution with the Rossoneri for almost two decades.
He ended his career in 1979, after 501 games for the club, by winning his third League championship as Milan lifted Lo Scudetto della Stella – the gold star title. It was a worthy ending for a player who was undoubtedly worthy of the Golden Ball.
Voted for Joga - I love Stielike as a covering midfielder, which allows Lucio to bomb forward. And Rivera - Greaves looks brilliant.
Actually it's the suitability to Skizzo's centre backs that concerns me. Both of them are quality, and are better than their counterparts, but neither Murtaz (who never was an athlete) nor Ruggeri (a strong defender with an outstanding heading ability) have the pace to stop Greaves here, who will get at the end of Rivera's through balls a few times.
Voted for Joga - I love Stielike as a covering midfielder, which allows Lucio to bomb forward. And Rivera - Greaves looks brilliant.
Actually it's the suitability to Skizzo's centre backs that concerns me. Both of them are quality, and are better than their counterparts, but neither Murtaz (who never was an athlete) nor Ruggeri (a strong defender with an outstanding heading ability) have the pace to stop Greaves here, who will get at the end of Rivera's through balls a few times.
Here are some gifs of Jupp Heynckes, for those who don't know much about him apart from his goalscoring records, which was nothing short of tremendous to say the least.
To reiterate
3rd highest goalscorer in Bundesliga history
Bundesliga top scorer: 1973–74, 1974–75
European Cup top scorer: 1975–76
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup top scorer: 1973–74
UEFA Cup top scorer: 1972–73, 1974–75
Scored five goals in 2 UEFA Cup Finals
23 goals in 21 games in the UEFA Cup - only member in the top 10 goalscoring lists to have scored at a ratio of over a goal per game.
51 goals in 64 matches in European club competitions - Average of 0.8 goals per match only bettered by compatriot Gerd Müller
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 1972
As stated in the OP his all-round game was excellent and he wasn't just a static and an opportunistic goalscorer but rather a fairly complete forward who had his share of pace and threat on the ball outside the box. Qualities which allowed him to thrive in the fluid Gladbach vintage (which won 4 Bundesliga against Beckenbauer's Bayern) and function seamlessly (as an inside right alongside Der Bomber) in Germany's greatest side ever in 1972 which won the Euros.
Running the inside left channels and playing the perfect return pass for Netzer - some one two that although credit largely needs to go to Netzer ofc
A quickfire goal from outside the box with great movement
Another goal where he exhibits great movement to capitalise on Netzer's creativity and scores against La Grande Inter in the European Cup
Scores in the UEFA Cup Final against the dippers with a cracking curler from the inside left channel, with Rupp functioning as the centre-forward
Shows excellent trickery to get past his man and put in an dangerous ball
Once again Netzer picks out Heynckes on the left and Heynckes exhibits his threat on the ball outside the box and creates a nice assist for Jensen after beating two men.
So of course, it won't just be Heynckes lurking around in the far post waiting for a scrappy tap in. He'd actively be providing options for others on the ball, esp Rivera, and constantly looking to exploit the left hand channels with his terrific movement on the ball and dynamism. The ball-carrying threat isn't just limited to Donadoni from the wider areas and it's a nicely balanced duo with Heynckes offering a more incisive goalscoring threat and Donadoni offering plenty of width and quality service. That too without accounting for the supporting threat of the full-backs Reuter & Bossis.
Please don't change your vote but be sure to check out the footage above with regards to Heynckes's style of play, and how he will fit in as a left sided inside forward.
Not to sound like a jerk, but if you strain your memory with a focus on your older draft participations, you might gain some clarity with regards to Donadoni's role here .
This is a great game. Both teams are very impressive.
Particular points on Red Tiger and Joga's team is that the attacking unit is well crafted. Rivera slipping it into Heynckes and Greaves looks tasty while Donadoni provides some useful graft and stretching of the play. The full-backs are tasty too.
I'm not as sold on the midfield unit in light of what it's up against. It certainly works when it can dictate the game, but the combativeness and all-roundedness of Hannapi and Lerby presents a problem there. On that basis I think SkizzoPat would have the edge in the centre of the park so it would come down to whether Rivera can pick out his forwards in telling positions when he gets the opportunities to do so.
I really like SkizzoPat's front six: it's almost flawless in design, is expertly balanced and smacks of quality. The Ruggeri/Khurtislava partnership looks solid too.
Boban off for 'Iron Lung'Wimmer to add some steel and dynamism in the middle against Lerby-Hannapi. Herbert 'Hacki' Wimmer was mainly known for being Netzer's combative water-carrier and was a renowned defensive lynchpin, but he was much more than just that. Wimmer was more in the mould of a Haan than a Makelele, and was an accomplished all-round midfielder imbued with great pace, intelligent movement both offensively and defensively, whilst being an excellent passer and a great dribbler - his nickname Hacki arose from his dribbling ability. In fact he took over the mantle of being the creative influence in Gladbach's engine room when Netzer left for Real and led Gladbach to 3 consecutive Bundesliga titles, an European Cup final and an UEFA Cup.
A very short vid extolling Wimmer's dynamism and ability on the ball
I think Khurtsilava was typecast a bit there, and while he may not have quite the turn of pace of Greaves, he was often tasked with marking the danger player on the opposition. A task which he was always up for.
He played against many powerful forwards during his playing career and was a killer defender. He gained this reputation with a respected style of play. Speaking of his own style, he explained that if an opponent team has a strongly pronounced player, he should be paid special attention. During his career, Murtaz never forced attackers with aggressive attempts. He preferred to use an easy, preemptive tactic, like stealing opponent’s ball in 2-3 positions back to back, destroying him psychologically, making him doubt his talents. Dinamo forward Vladimir Kozlov, while speaking of Murtaz, frankly said that he never saw him kick someone or hit someone intentionally in order to win a struggle. That’s because in his opinion, aggression will bring unpleasantness to audience and added ;
“Fair-play for me means that keeping in mind that player against you is also your colleague. If you respect him, you will be respected too.”
Famous USSR trainer Nikolay Starostin described him as a guy never thinking of any combination or a counter attack, focusing just on player he will be marking during the match. When he marked famous forward of Italian National Team, Alessandro Mazzola in the World Cup, he left an impression on every football fan.
“Murtaz never loved someone telling him what to do, how to do, how to mark a player. He was just asking opponent’s shirt number.” said Yozhef Szabo, a former Soviet player. Totally aware of his duties on the pitch, Murtaz was always on the pitch to fulfill them.
Plus with Ruggeri and Carey able to condense space with Heynckes wanting to cut inside, there'll be limited space for Greaves to run the channels like he would enjoy.
On the other side, we have two players in Barnes and Conti who can stretch the play, leaving areas around the penalty box for Seeler to take advantage. Spreading the field allows us to exploit the space better than having players that would cause the defense to collapse in on itself.
And to make sure Adolfo gets the appreciation he deserves, some quotes and info we collected last time.
1946: Hosts: Chile. Participants (6): Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay. Another strong tournament where the top 3 all brought full strength sides: Argentina (Labruna, N. Mendez, Pedernera, Loustau, Martino, De le Mata) Brazil (Heleno, Jair, Zizinho), Uruguay (Medina, Schiaffino) as well as Chile and Paraguay bringing a competitive teams, only Bolivia was cannon fodder. Champion Argentina. Official top player Adolfo Pedernera: The great deep lying center forward and playmaker scored two goals both in important close wins vs Uruguay and Chile. Was the playmaker of the offense that scored a tournament best 17 goals in 5 games. Other possible top performers: Norberto Méndez again played a huge role scoring 5 times including a brace in the 2-0 win over Brazil in the final tournament deciding game.
Pedernera was able to keep a young Di Stefano out of the team, as he was just that good.
For the record, between 1941 and 1949, River won 4 titles, Boca 2, Independiente Racing and San Lorenzo 1 each.
One of the reasons why La Maquina was deemed to be so great was that the league was indeed very competitive at the time, and yet they managed to stand out. Remember, River was so good that there was no room for a young Alfredo Di Stefano on the team, and they had to loan him to Huracan. Boca had an awesome team (Sarlanga, Boye, Lazatti, Borello), and so did Independiente (Arsenio Erico, De la Mata), and San Lorenzo (Martino, Pontoni, Farro).
For reference, in the 1950's a number of Argentine players left the country, including the likes of Di Stefano, Sivori, Maschio and Angelillo, who did extremely well in Europe and are considered all-time greats.
But, Argentine football old timers would argue that the players from the 40's were even better than those from the 50's who found success in Europe. Old timers would rank the likes of Moreno and Pedernera ahead of Di Stefano and Sivori, although since Europe was at war and there were practically no international tournaments or matches at the time it is a premise that's impossible to prove.
San Lorenzo does boast a successful tour of Europe in 1947, including a 6-1 victory over Spain's national team, and a 10-4 win over Portugal, although I don't know how good or how legitimate those particular Spanish and Portuguese national teams were.
But looking at the accounts from the era, I think that, as in the case of Ajax and Netherlands of the 70's, the admiration for River's La Maquina of the 40's was first and foremost due to the way they played, how they could dominate matches with beautiful and innovative football. It was not just based on the tournaments that they won.
Plus, Loustau was the more offensive winger. He also frequently moved to the center (as he was pretty complete in his game...good passer of the ball, and a tremendous dribbler). When he moved into the middle, Pedernera would move to the left wing
Which also highlights the flexibility we have with Pedernera, in that he won't be looking to play just in the hole behind Seeler, but he can move to the left, clearing channels for Barnes to run into. It gives the midfield/defenders extra runs to track, that could cause all kinds of problems when they're already stretched.
Didn't know this game was up for the weekend. Shame as it seems that it didn't get much traction.
S/P have built an excellent side. Like the 4-4-2 approach and they have the appropriate players to execute their plan.
On the other hand RedTiger/Joga side for me was one of the best for this first round. Very well balanced with Bossis/Reuter on the flanks, Heynkess coming in from inside left - real gem to be picked up that late. Stielke holding and Rivera (one of the best in the pool) playmaking. I obviously rate Lucio a lot as well picking him in the last draft.
It's a really tough to make a call for this one, for me RT/Joga edge it on having a better full backs and Rivera/Stielke combo.
Tiger/Joga with a less obvious selection - but one I largely * buy balance wise. Skizzo/Pat with a front six - as Gio says - which is pretty much pefectly balanced.
Fair points on Greaves/speed as such - seems like a slight discrepancy there. It's something a clever defender used to marking a pure striker can compensate for, however - so I'm reluctant to call it an obvious point in favour of Tiger/Joga.
* I don't particularly like Boban in that role (not that he can't play there, but it seems less than ideally balanced given the rest of the team) - and thus agree with the substitution (which was made at 5-5, I note).
Again, it's tight - but if I had to call a winner, I'd go for Skizzo/Pat - and their overall balance (mainly compared to the original Tiger/Joga setup w/ Boban, you could say - and the sub was made fairly late).
Tommy Gemmell was part of the great Lisbon Lions team, and Johnny Carey is a United legend.
Great write up here on the man from a poster on here.
TomClare said:
“The Quiet Man” – Johnny Carey
“The Quiet Man” – I don’t think that there is a more apt description for the man who was to be Manchester United’s first post war Club Captain. Quiet, diplomatic, studious, intelligent, skilful, versatile, but authoritative, and respected, both on and off the field of play. One of the finest ambassadors for the game of football the sport has ever known. Carey certainly left his mark on the game, but in addition to the accolades described above, he will also be remembered as a wonderful human being.
Johnny’s path and journey to Old Trafford, and Manchester United, began in the summer of 1936, when as a raw boned 17 years old inside forward, he left Home Farm, the club that was to become so famous for producing so many wonderful Irish footballers for the British game, and joined the League of Ireland side, St. James’s Gate, one of Ireland’s oldest soccer clubs whose roots were based in the Guinness Brewery’s staff, sports and social club.
His stay at St. James’s was relatively short, in fact just two months. Johnny was spotted by a man whose name was later to become synonymous with Manchester United as their Chief Scout in the Republic of Ireland, one Billy Behan. Behan, a goalkeeper, had joined Manchester United in 1933 after moving from the Dublin club Shamrock Rovers. He was to stay at Old Trafford for just 11 months before moving back to Ireland in 1934 after playing in just one first team game, a Second Division encounter with Bury at Old Trafford in March of 1934. Behan retired from playing in 1936, and after watching Carey play a number of times, he recommended him to Scot Duncan, who was the then manager of Manchester United. United paid St. James’s of just 250 pounds in what was then a record fee for a League of Ireland player.
Carey’s debut game for Manchester United was on September 25, 1937 playing inside left, at Old Trafford, in a second Division game against Southampton which United lost by 2-1. It is interesting to note that his team mate playing at centre half that day was none other than Sir Walter Winterbottom who went on to become a celebrated manager and coach of the full England international team. Two other young players of note made their debuts for United not long afterwards; Jack Rowley, who had been signed from Bournemouth, and Stan Pearson who had come through from the juniors. For the rest of that season, Carey and Pearson vied with each other for the inside left berth with Carey chalking up 19 appearances.
The 1938/39 season saw Johnny make 34 first team appearances and most of those appearances were at inside left forming a great partnership with Jack Rowley. However, that was to be his last season in full time competitive football for almost six years, The war clouds had been gathering over Europe and the normal competitive leagues were suspended at the start of what would have been the 1939/40 season. For the next few years Johnny turned out for United in the Wartime leagues and “guested” for various clubs whilst also playing exhibition matches and friendlies, and this carried on until 1943 when he enlisted into the British Army. During the next two years he served overseas in both the middle east and in Italy, where again, he managed to play football in hastily organized friendly matches with the various service teams.
When hostilities ceased in 1945, despite being made several decent offers from other Clubs, Johnny returned back to Manchester and to Manchester United. The club were not in a great position. Old Trafford had suffered severe damage from bombs that had gone astray in German air raids that had targeted the large industrial area of Trafford Park. The stadium was in such poor condition that it had to be virtually re-built. There was very little money in the club, and the club had just appointed a new manager by the name of Matt Busby who had never managed a football club before. Without doubt a classy wing half as a player, and one who had served both Manchester City and Liverpool well during the 1930’s. But as a manager, he was untried, and the manager’s role back in those days was a totally different job than the one we see today.
Busby was to change that and he became the revolutionary, the first of what was to become known as the “track suit” manager. He had a long term vision of how he wanted the club to develop both on and off the field. He brought in a right hand man in Jimmy Murphy, a Welshman, and a former tenacious wing half with West Bromwich Albion. Their plans for the future were formulated and were quite revolutionary for the time, but initially time was the one thing that they needed. They also needed a bridge - a leader between themselves and the players. That bridge and leader was to be Johnny Carey.
Matt and Jimmy both knew Johnny personally. They had played with him and against him in exhibition games during the wartime years, both in Britain, and in Italy. In Johnny, they saw those much need qualities that were required to be a leader. They decided that he was to be their “generalissimo.” He was quiet and studious, had a very dry sense of humour, was prudent with his money, but was always calm under any kind of pressure. His temperament was ice cold. Nothing phased him. He could, and did hold his own with his contemporaries, and it was to their “Skipper” that they often turned to for advice. Carey without doubt had their respect, and they were prepared to follow his lead, even though there was a lot of strong personalities in the United dressing room immediately after the War.
As a player, Carey was so very versatile and he played in every position on the field for Manchester United, including one game in goal. In the first full season after the war (1946/47) Busby moved Carey into the position that he was really to make his own; right full back. Although he did play games in all those other positions, his main stay was right back. He was so poised, so articulate, always seemed to have so much time on the ball. Not for him the rash challenge, more often than not he stayed on his feet. He studied his opponents, knew their strengths, and probed their weaknesses. Such a composed player and his reputation and stature grew with each passing season. So much so that in 1947/48 he was given the honour of captaining the Rest of Europe against a Great Britain team at Hampden Park in a match that celebrated the British Home Countries affiliation to FIFA. Johnny Carey is one of the few men to have played for both the Football Association of Ireland and the Irish Football Association winning 27 caps for the former, and 9 for the latter. His cool, calm, calculated play, tranquil style, and quiet but firm leadership led to him being elected the Football Writers Player of the Year at the end of the 1948/49 season. It was, without doubt, a very popular choice amongst his peers.
For the first four seasons after the War, Manchester United were to finish as runners-up in the First Division of the Football League. However in 1948, the team won the club’s first major honour since 1911, when the collected the F.A. Cup after they beat Lancashire rivals Blackpool, 4-2 in one of the most thrilling finals ever seen at the old Wembley Stadium. Despite being 2-1 down at half-time, Carey had as much influence as Busby and Murphy did in the inspirational talks that went on inside the Wembley dressing room. The team clicked and put on a second half display that was awe inspiring, and it was the quiet smiling Irishman who travelled up the famous 39 steps to the Royal box to collect the famous old FA Cup from HM King George VI. That evening, at the club’s reception in a top central London hotel, he sat quietly reflecting, puffing on his pipe, and was heard later to sing what was his “party piece”, a little ditty that was made famous years later by another of his countrymen, Val Doonican - “Paddy McGinty’s Goat.”
At the end of the 1951-52 season, Carey, at last collected the much coveted First Division Championship winner’s medal, when Manchester United at last finished first. By this time he was almost 34 and at the end of the following season he announced his retirement. United did want him to stay on, namely as a coach, but he had other ambitions in the management field, particularly after watching Busby at work at close quarters.
Couple that with the fact that Carey isn't up against a genuine winger who will run him ragged and drag him around, he'll be looking to cut inside, where he'll be aided by probably the best person for the job, Ruggeri.
Not sure if Rivera/Stielike combo is better than Pedernera/Hanappi or Lerby either, but I won't argue with all your opinions
That being said, Conti is a better winger than Donadoni, and Barnes offers a direct threat from the wing, in terms of pulling wide or beating a man, so even if his full backs shade it (which i'd argue they don't) they have a much tougher job on their hands. Not to mention, once we spread the play out with our wingers, it creates that space for Seeler inside the box to convert those chances.
Tommy Gemmell was part of the great Lisbon Lions team, and Johnny Carey is a United legend.
Great write up here on the man from a poster on here.
Couple that with the fact that Carey isn't up against a genuine winger who will run him ragged and drag him around, he'll be looking to cut inside, where he'll be aided by probably the best person for the job, Ruggeri.
Not sure if Rivera/Stielike combo is better than Pedernera/Hanappi or Lerby either, but I won't argue with all your opinions
That being said, Conti is a better winger than Donadoni, and Barnes offers a direct threat from the wing, in terms of pulling wide or beating a man, so even if his full backs shade it (which i'd argue they don't) they have a much tougher job on their hands. Not to mention, once we spread the play out with our wingers, it creates that space for Seeler inside the box to convert those chances.
Oh, no doubt you have quality in full back department. I just like RT/Joga's more. Bossis was gifted footballer but also excellent defence which makes him pretty good fit for both creating width and also be solid defensively.
I'd give you the edge on Conti/Donadoni and Ruggeri/Sanchis also Seeler/Greaves. However center of midfield I'd give the edge to RT/Joga - Wimmer/Stielike/Rivera is well balanced and of course it will be down to preference but to me Rivera is the best player on the pitch(I know about Pedernera as well).
Not much to say about a weakness in either team, rather than which you'd like best IMO for a neutral.
Oh, no doubt you have quality in full back department. I just like RT/Joga's more. Bossis was gifted footballer but also excellent defence which makes him pretty good fit for both creating width and also be solid defensively.
I'd give you the edge on Conti/Donadoni and Ruggeri/Sanchis also Seeler/Greaves. However center of midfield I'd give the edge to RT/Joga - Wimmer/Stielike/Rivera is well balanced and of course it will be down to preference but to me Rivera is the best player on the pitch(I know about Pedernera as well).
Not much to say about a weakness in either team, rather than which you'd like best IMO for a neutral.
Definitely don't want to try and badger you into changing your mind there's certainly nothing wrong with liking RT/Joga team more, they have a fantastic team.
As you say, small preferences can make a difference to voters, just didn't want to miss a chance to shine some light on Tommy and Johnny.
The Wimmer/Stielike midfield is better balanced than with Boban there, so can't find fault with the sub. Although Soren "feck shin guards" Lerby, and Gerhard "Who named me that?" Hanappi would be a great battle against the Germans
In terms of pure quality/draftability (for lack of a better word), I'd say they probably do shade it. But it's a question of roles. Reuter, for me, isn't anything special in this context as a fullback with a fairly conservative brief. He certainly isn't a selling point (which he might be in a different role).
In terms of pure quality/draftability (for lack of a better word), I'd say they probably do shade it. But it's a question of roles. Reuter, for me, isn't anything special in this context as a fullback with a fairly conservative brief. He certainly isn't a selling point (which he might be in a different role).
Bossis is the best in terms of being recognized, and you know what you're getting. Gemmell and Reuter are probably similar in terms of needing a specific role or set up for them to be an added bonus for the manager. Carey, is obviously the more unknown to the "casual" fan/poster, and obviously as a player from a different generation, would need the most information in terms of selling him as a non-liability.
So it's probably a relatively fair assessment, or at least understandable why they'd be seen edging it.
I think Khurtsilava was typecast a bit there, and while he may not have quite the turn of pace of Greaves, he was often tasked with marking the danger player on the opposition. A task which he was always up for.
Plus with Ruggeri and Carey able to condense space with Heynckes wanting to cut inside, there'll be limited space for Greaves to run the channels like he would enjoy.
On the other side, we have two players in Barnes and Conti who can stretch the play, leaving areas around the penalty box for Seeler to take advantage. Spreading the field allows us to exploit the space better than having players that would cause the defense to collapse in on itself.
I hope that you don't think that I tried to downplay him - I love the guy, heck, it was me who picked him first there
He is really a very unique player - you would say that he is a grocery salesman or something when you'll first look at him - short, chubby etc. But somehow he managed to became a top defender (who is a shoe-in un USSR best XI) - because of his incredible football and defensive intelligence and immaculate technique (even in 1972 Euro final, which they lost, he hit the bar in one of his forward runs, altough for the first German goal he was supposed to mark Müller, who scored a rebound after a smart movement in the box). But here, against one of a deadliest forwards ever, I feel that he won't be able to intercept 100% of Rivera's through-balls, for example - and Ruggeri, who is superior to Greaves in his physical play, wasn't the most agile/fast defender
If you would've been playing with the deep defensive line, I would've bought it. But in a direct 4-4-2, with 2 box-to-box midfielders in front of them, you'll leave gaps of space behind and would be vulnerable to the counters.
I didn't realise this was being played and I was working or comatose for most of it, but I'm glad it was a close match as both teams are excellent IMO.
- Which type of forwards are most difficult to defend against?
- Against fast ones and ambidextrous. I won't say that tall forwards were that hard to deal with - which is surprising, considering by height. You rarely meet someone like Portugal's Torres (who was 2 meters tall), and if someone is slightly taller than me it's not really a problem. But the most difficult ones are those, who with every move create a riddle for you. For example, Eduard Streltsov. He was very difficult to defend against, but it was a nice challenge - he forced you to always be sharp, almost challenging me - would I be able to match his football wit and unorthodox move. It would be a great pleasure to win the duel against him.
I would also say that Banishevski and Byshovets (again, fast and tricky forwards - harms) were also difficult to play against, even though they were easier to deal with than Streltsov. With Banishevski you always want to be one step ahead of him, to intercept balls and to force him to make a pass when he doesn't want it. Byshovets is very tricky dribbler, so you had to wait and follow the ball, expecting him to make a trick at any second.
@harms I know you weren't downplaying him. I think I was reading some of your posts on him when we were thinking of picking him (I think they were yours)
Won't get into a big discussion on him now, since the games over, but maybe we'll get to continue that later
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