Reserves Draft | RedTiger* 8-8 Skizzo-Pat

Who will win based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Chesterlestreet

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If you would've been playing with the deep defensive line, I would've bought it. But in a direct 4-4-2, with 2 box-to-box midfielders in front of them, you'll leave gaps of space behind and would be vulnerable to the counters.
I agree with this to an extent. And it would be particularly dangerous with Greaves seeking to exploit those gaps - he'd be among the trickiest customers in this draft to handle for a defence which is short on speed.

However, I don't see S/P as relentlessly pushing up: It may not be a stated deep line, but it isn't a stated high line either - as I take it, at least. So, while they'd no doubt be vulnerable to counters, they don't play in a manner which makes this a crucial point against them: They also field fullbacks you'd have to describe as defensively solid and generally "balanced" in their approach, which means that either of them could plausibly fill the last-ditch role in a scenario where Greaves gets played through - something which is further supported by the nature of T/J's wide men, one could add, Carey's man in particular (as mentioned already).

Anyway, penalties. Fair outcome, I'd say, as there really isn't much between these teams.
 

Skizzo

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@harms @Chesterlestreet @Edgar Allan Pillow @Gio @Enigma_87

Appreciate the feedback and comments gents, especially as timing meant us managers weren't able to keep this chugging along as usual.

hell of a team we were up against, and I think penalties are probably fair in a game that's balanced on such fine margins.

Now just have to wait for @Aldo to confirm we are doing penos, and then for someone to do them :)
 

Moby

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RedTiger starts the shootout. Jimmy Greaves steps up for the first kick of the shootout.

He blasts it down the middle..

Croy was too quick in diving to the side, no chance saving that.

RedTiger 1-0 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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German star Uwe Seeler has been sent up first. Can he back his team back on terms? He goes for the right corner..

And the penalty specialist Van Der Sar has it spot on. He dives to his left and saves it.

RedTiger 1-0 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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The Italian Golden Boy Gianni Rivera comes forward to continue this tense contest. He goes to the left with a really soft shot..

What is Croy doing? He's rooted to his spot.

RedTiger 2-0 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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Bruno Conti looks like he's the man to get his team off the mark here. He wastes no time and slots it down the right.

VDS is fooled this time, he goes the opposite side.

RedTiger 2-1 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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Roberto Donadoni is going to take the next kick. Will he able to continue the perfect record for Italians so far? He's gone the left as well..

And scores as well!
RedTiger 3-1 Skizzo-Pat
 

Joga Bonito

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I hope that you don't think that I tried to downplay him - I love the guy, heck, it was me who picked him first there :)
He is really a very unique player - you would say that he is a grocery salesman or something when you'll first look at him - short, chubby etc. But somehow he managed to became a top defender (who is a shoe-in un USSR best XI) - because of his incredible football and defensive intelligence and immaculate technique (even in 1972 Euro final, which they lost, he hit the bar in one of his forward runs, altough for the first German goal he was supposed to mark Müller, who scored a rebound after a smart movement in the box). But here, against one of a deadliest forwards ever, I feel that he won't be able to intercept 100% of Rivera's through-balls, for example - and Ruggeri, who is superior to Greaves in his physical play, wasn't the most agile/fast defender

If you would've been playing with the deep defensive line, I would've bought it. But in a direct 4-4-2, with 2 box-to-box midfielders in front of them, you'll leave gaps of space behind and would be vulnerable to the counters.
Agreed with this appraisal. I hope people don't think I've been too critical of him and I really did like him from what little I saw of him. It's just that it's a really unique scenario with him facing Greaves and having Ruggeri as a partner that I felt that it had to be highlighted. That centre-back duo would be faultless against most centre-forwards in this draft imo.

The feck? It's a draw!
:lol:

I didn't realise this was being played and I was working or comatose for most of it, but I'm glad it was a close match as both teams are excellent IMO.
Yeah a fair result indeed and there isn't much between the teams at all. Has been a great game overall.
 

Moby

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The scouse legend John Barnes steps up. He goes aims for the middle and....

fools the keeper!

RedTiger 3-2 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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No penalty shootout is complete without Germans, and after one has missed, here comes the other one. Will Heynckes be able to maintain the perfect record for his team?

Absolutely. He calmly places it through the middle.

RedTiger 4-2 Skizzo-Pat
 

Moby

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Hanappi steps up for what is a crucial kick of the game. Miss this and pack your bags. He looks confident about going with a Panenka!

What a howler. VDS predicts this far too easily and gladly catches the ball. Hanappi breaks down in embarrassment. The team is heartbroken having come so close. It's all over, Team RedTiger is through to the quarters!

RedTiger 4-2 Skizzo-Pat
 

Joga Bonito

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@Joga Bonito you have probably been the most complimentary opposition manager we've ever faced :lol: don't feel you were too critical on us.
:lol:. There really wasn't much to criticise at all though and apart from the centre back duo issue (which I just mentioned relative to Seeler vs our CB pairing), it was a really well constructed side. Also couldn't push the standard 3 in midfield vs 2 in midfield argument given how Pedernera's work rate there made it more or less even, as I stated in one of my earlier posts. Also you had Conti, Seeler and Lerby :mad:, some of my absolute favourites, so yeah there wasn't much I could do except focus on our players, esp Heynckes, as much as possible. Hopefully, Heynckes gets more kudos from now on.

Great game and drafting, as usual, from you and @Pat_Mustard .

This will be my last draft for a while, so you guys all be nice to @Pat_Mustard while I'm gone!
That's a shame, surely you could play as an AM or something?
 

Joga Bonito

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But it's a question of roles. Reuter, for me, isn't anything special in this context as a fullback with a fairly conservative brief. He certainly isn't a selling point (which he might be in a different role).
I've always held the view that Reuter whilst being renowned for his attacking prowess and sheer athleticism, could play the balanced FB role to an equally notable level. He did play as a DM and a sweeper, later on in his career if I recall correctly and he definitely had the tactical nous and discipline throughout his career imo.

Even then, with Donadoni playing as the industrious right winger, Reuter could easily play a more expansive overlapping role instead of his current support role. Something to ponder upon for the future matches I reckon.


Anyway here is a cracking article on Pedernera that I came upon when researching him.


Pedernera, the twinkle-toed engine driver


“Obdulio, are you frightened of the Brazil forwards?” asked the journalists of Uruguay midfielder Obdulio Varela ahead of the final and decisive match of the 1950 FIFA World Cup Brazil™, which pitted La Celeste against the tournament hosts, with the Trophy at stake.

“Frightened?” came the reply. “I’ve played against Adolfo Pedernera and there’s nobody like him.”

It was a response that showed the esteem in which the great Pedernera, the man they called El Maestro, was held by the players who had to face him.

Though he died 20 years ago today, the Argentinian forward’s outstanding contribution to the game has not been forgotten, nor has the central role he played in two of the finest teams South America has ever seen: La Máquina, the fabled River Plate side of the 1940s, and El Ballet Azul, the name given to the richly talented line-up he subsequently formed part of at Colombian club Millonarios.

The inimitable Alfredo Di Stefano, among the shrewdest judges of them all, rated Pedernera one of the best players he had ever seen, having idolised him as a fan at the Estadio Monumental and then played alongside him briefly there and for nearly four years in Bogota.

It was at the Monumental that Pedernera acquired legendary status and became the scheming mastermind of La Máquina, a revolutionary, star-studded team that featured five forwards capable of swapping positions and popping up in places where the opposition least expected them.

Pedernera’s strike partners in La Máquina were Juan Carlos Munoz, Jose Manuel Moreno, Angel Labruna or Felix Lousteau, and those that saw the quintet in their pomp said they could win matches at any time they pleased. The brand of football they espoused made them, in many ways, the precursors of the hugely gifted Netherlands’ side of the 1970s, one spearheaded by JohanCruyff.

Part Cruyff, part Messi
Pedernera was the Cruyff of that much-celebrated River team, one shaped by its coach Renato Cesarini and his assistant Carlos Peucelle, who later revealed that the person responsible for coming up with its entirely appropriate nickname was none other than Pedernera’s mother Rosa.

Opinion is still divided as to whether Peucelle or Cesarini should get the credit for enabling Pedernera to give free rein to his creative talents, which were already very much in evidence when he made his debut for the Buenos Aires giants as a 16-year-old in 1935.

A Huracan youth product, the teenage Pedernera was fast on his feet, a skilful and fearless dribbler and could strike the ball with either foot. He dominated the left flank like no one else could, dreamed up passes that no one else saw and had a vision of the pitch that no one else possessed.

The youngster had won two Argentinian league titles and two cups when Peucelle and Cesarini became to Pedernera what Pep Guardiola would later become to Lionel Messi at Barcelona, switching him to a more central and more withdrawn role and inviting him to alternate between driving into the box to finish moves off and sitting back to direct them. The year was 1941 and La Máquina was born, and with it the so-called “false nine”.

With Pedernera in the role of maquinista (“engine driver”), River won three more league crowns and three more cups, while the Argentinian national team also benefitted, landing two South American titles thanks in no small part to their schemer-in-chief.

Sadly for the rest of the football community, the Second World War robbed them of the chance to see Pedernera at his peak.

Ballet in Bogota
A fractious relationship with Labruna and River president Antonio V. Liberti led to Pedernera leaving the club in 1946, his fortunes taking a dip in the next three years before a player strike over wages led to him becoming the first of several Argentinian footballers to offer their services to Colombian football.

A celebrity across the continent, he was welcomed by a crowd of five thousand people at Bogota Airport, and his arrival gave Millonarios just the exposure they and the newly founded Colombian league were looking for.

Pedernera also had a big hand in the mass exodus of Argentina’s finest players northwards. Though he demanded and made a lot of money from the game and enjoyed the Buenos Aires nightlife to the full, he never forgot about his colleagues, and helped found the Futbolistas Argentinos Agremiados (Union of Argentinian Footballers) in 1944. Set up to defend the country’s players, it had a leading role in calling the 1949 strike.

He was similarly adored in Colombia, his performance on his debut prompting one newspaper to write of him: “He is a phenomenon, an artist, a master passer and the epitome of intelligence. With him, everything is possible.

Where Pedernera went, others followed. The influx of great foreign players to Colombia, among them Di Stefano, marked the start of a golden era in the country’s footballing history, on that became known as El Dorado. Its influence on the style of the Colombian game can still be felt today.

Pedernera was the first dancer in Millonarios’ Ballet Azul, which won four Colombian league championships between 1949 and 1953 and a Mini Club World Cup title against leading South American and European teams.

After taking on player/coach duties in 1950 his influence remained huge, and it was as a coach that he further cemented his place in the history of Colombian football, guiding the national team to the FIFA World Cup for the very first time at Chile 1962.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I've always held the view that Reuter whilst being renowned for his attacking prowess and sheer athleticism, could play the balanced FB role to an equally notable level.
Yes, arguably. He wasn't a bad defender, that's not what I'm saying - if anything he was pretty good in that department for someone who was, as you say, renowned for his attacking prowess. But the context here was a comparison of the two pairs of fullbacks - and given his defensive/conservative brief (as I read it, anyway - he's certainly more restrained than Bossis on the opposite flank), he doesn't stand out compared to either of Skizzo/Pat's fullbacks.

You want him to contribute offensively to a significant degree in order to get the best out of him - because that's where his real edge lies: speed, very good one-on-one, fine crosser, etc. In other words, the more you can unleash his offensive qualities, the better he becomes - and conversely, the less he's unleashed, the more run-of-the-mill he becomes (in what is, after all, an all-time context).
 

Joga Bonito

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Yes, arguably. He wasn't a bad defender, that's not what I'm saying - if anything he was pretty good in that department for someone who was, as you say, renowned for his attacking prowess. But the context here was a comparison of the two pairs of fullbacks - and given his defensive/conservative brief (as I read it, anyway - he's certainly more restrained than Bossis on the opposite flank), he doesn't stand out compared to either of Skizzo/Pat's fullbacks.

You want him to contribute offensively to a significant degree in order to get the best out of him - because that's where his real edge lies: speed, very good one-on-one, fine crosser, etc. In other words, the more you can unleash his offensive qualities, the better he becomes - and conversely, the less he's unleashed, the more run-of-the-mill he becomes (in what is, after all, an all-time context).
That's fair enough.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Agreed with this appraisal. I hope people don't think I've been too critical of him and I really did like him from what little I saw of him. It's just that it's a really unique scenario with him facing Greaves and having Ruggeri as a partner that I felt that it had to be highlighted. That centre-back duo would be faultless against most centre-forwards in this draft imo.
This was maybe the biggest point of interest between two good teams and I fully agree - Greaves was perfect against our CBs, particularly with Rivera supplying him. I wish I'd done more research on him, although I doubt I'd have found much, but I did like the idea of the cerebral, multi-position playing Carey at RB helping to mitigate the huge threat of Heynckes. I loved the composition of our whole attack, with two brilliant wingers feeding an aerially fantastic centre forward with great link up play, and a somewhat forgotten great tying it all together, but stylistically your defence matched up rather well in terms of individual battles.

This was maybe my favourite team that I've helped draft so far at the first round stage, so I'm happy we ran you so close as you deservedly seemed to be favourites to win the whole thing after the initial drafting. Good luck to you and @RedTiger going forwards!