Rojo & Jones Must Continue as First Choice

[Raoul]

I disagree, and here's why:

1. They haven't really been tested properly against strong opponents.
2. Their partnership has coincided with Carrick becoming a regular again. This makes a huge difference for the defense, as their job becomes much easier.
3. Bailly has hardly put a foot wrong and Valencia has arguably been our best player. They both need to start when they are fit and available.
4. Smalling was our best defender(and one of our best outfield players overall) during the entire Van Gaal era. You can't erase all that history because of one shitty game against Chelsea.
5. Jones and Rojo's "dominance" has come during a time when the team is finally starting to click. Our biggest issue up until this point has been scoring. Apart from the Chelsea game, we've actually been pretty decent defensively, regardless of who's played in central defense.
6. Most importantly: Jones and Rojo haven't been that great. It's a miracle that Rojo hasn't been sent off or suspended yet. His tackling is ridiculously bad. As for Jones, I nearly shit myself whenever there's a one-on-one. The opponent either seems to get past him, or at the very least he will manage to get a decent cross/hard pass into the box. To top it off, DDG have made some crucial top class saves that to save our asses several times.

TLDR;
A match-fit Smalling and Bailly with Carrick protecting them, primarily against midtable/lower table teams, with the team clicking, would done the job just as well, if not better. These two are also better players on paper, with a better track-record(Bailly's record is still fresh, but he's hardly put a foot wrong and is clearly class). I say throw them into the starting XI at the first possible chance!

There's one thing that trumps everything you listed - you don't mess with a successful partnership. You let it go until if/when it is no longer successful since you don't know how removing them would affect the rest of the squad chemistry.

 

[Revan]

Smalling is a fantastic CB

Not buying that, he really isn't.

in fact there were various stretches over the past couple of years where you would've been hard pressed to find a better defender in the league,

He was arguably the best CB in the league from August to October, very average in the following months and pure shit in the last couple of months of the season.

even during our darkest hours under Moyes and LvG.

He was somewhere between average and shit on Moyes and LVG's first season.

During much of that time, it was ironically Jones and Rojo who were considered not good enough, surplus to requirements, frustrating, injury prone, and likely to get shown the door during the next window. The reality is we need 4 good defenders and we have them, and there's no need to throw any of them under the bus because they don't' happen to be playing at the moment.

Fair enough, but Rojo and Jones are playing quite good this season, while Smalling has gone back to his usual self. After how much time we should accept that those three months were the outlier, not the norm?

 

[FujiVice]

1. They haven't really been tested properly against strong opponents.

Spurs?

 

[Lawman]

Short term I agree but longer term I envisage Bailley and Smalling playing. One thing I hope we all agree is Darmain gets put out the team asap.

 

[Raoul]

Not buying that, he really isn't.


He was arguably the best CB in the league from August to October, very average in the following months and pure shit in the last couple of months of the season.


He was somewhere between average and shit on Moyes and LVG's first season.



Fair enough, but Rojo and Jones are playing quite good this season, while Smalling has gone back to his usual self. After how much time we should accept that those three months were the outlier, not the norm?

He was significantly better than Rojo or Jones during that period. The fact that they are now playing well just shows how good players can excel with great coaching and management. Smalling is no different than Jones and Rojo in that regard, in fact, he was fantastic for a long stretch under LvG so Mourinho's work is significantly less than with the others.

 

[Dir Wangem]

There's one thing that trumps everything you listed - you don't mess with a successful partnership. You let it go until if/when it is no longer successful since you don't know how removing them would affect the rest of the squad chemistry.

It's been way too short, with way too many other variables to consider. Based on your logic, any player(regardless of level) can get into the starting XI for any player as long as the team keeps winning.

 

[Raoul]

It's been way too short, with way too many other variables to consider. Based on your logic, any player(regardless of level) can get into the starting XI for any player as long as the team keeps winning.

On the contrary, few if any players can get into the starting XI as long as the current starting XI are working. That's exactly as it should be. You don't fiddle with something that's working just for the sake of experimentation.

 

[AndyJ1985]

Wasn't long ago everyone thought the pair of them were shit and should be sold, and Baily was by far our best defender.

Now they're our best defenders and should be first choice?

It was the same with Rooney; after being shit all season he had a couple decent games and we were told he should be first choice again.

The word fickle springs to mind.

 

[SteveW]

Jones and Bailly/Smalling

 

[Drz]

For the sake of continuity and rewarding their good/hard work, I also vote for keeping the JoJo combo. Bailly is going to be missing in a bit anyways.

 

[AgentP]

I like this partnership and we should retain it until someone gets injured or starts performing badly. We have plenty of cup games coming up in January so Bailly and Smalling will get a lot of game time. Bailly is anyway going to leave for the African Cup of Nations next month so it would be silly to break a successful partnership for a player who will not be available for around a month.

 

[Revan]

He was significantly better than Rojo or Jones during that period. The fact that they are now playing well just shows how good players can excel with great coaching and management. Smalling is no different than Jones and Rojo in that regard, in fact, he was fantastic for a long stretch under LvG so Mourinho's work is significantly less than with the others.

He was better than Jones and Rojo, on the last 2 years they have been all together at the club, no doubt about that, but Rojo and Jones are playing better now and they deserve to continue. He has been fantastic for three months under LVG, and mixed on the other period IMO.

He's a decent player, but nothing special (same about Jones and Rojo recently).

 

[Raoul]

He was better than Jones and Rojo, on the last 2 years they have been all together at the club, no doubt about that, but Rojo and Jones are playing better now and they deserve to continue. He has been fantastic for three months under LVG, and mixed on the other period IMO.

He's a decent player, but nothing special (same about Jones and Rojo recently).

I completely agree with this. I was aiming my comments at people who think we should buy a new CB because Smalling isn't good enough (as stated in the other thread). That idea is obviously nonsense given that Smalling has played well and can easily match what the likes of Jones and Rojo are contributing at the moment.

 

[AndyJ1985]

I completely agree with this. I was aiming my comments at people who think we should buy a new CB because Smalling isn't good enough (as stated in the other thread). That idea is obviously nonsense given that Smalling has played well and can easily match what the likes of Jones and Rojo are contributing at the moment.

Do you think we need to buy a new CB? If so, who would they replace?

 

[Loublaze]

I don't agree with the Smalling sucks narrative. He is a good player and has shown he is a good defender. He has weaknesses in his passing game and for someone so tall does not dominate in the air as much as you would expect, but he is a good player.

Having said that the discussion here is about the partnership between Rojo and Jones which is working great right now, and regardless whether Smalling is a good player or we shouldn't be breaking this partnership up whilst it is working and whilst we look so dominant at the back.

Smalling won 121 aerial duels last season. More than anyone else in the team and one of the highest in the league

 

[Raoul]

Do you think we need to buy a new CB? If so, who would they replace?

I don't think we should buy one. We just bought a very good one a few months ago and our existing ones are performing well at the moment. Between Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Smalling, Blind we have more than enough. What is more important is getting our existing players to play at a high level.

 

[villain]

I agree that we stick for now and bring Smalling/Bailly back to fitness via substitute appearances. No sense in breaking up a partnership that is working.

However, I think the one constant helping this duo shine is the fact they have Michael Carrick and a midfield three in front of them. This is something Bailly + Smalling had to do without in almost every game they played together, and they are still far, far better defenders so will eventually claim their places back.

Precisely, they've been helped tremendously by the whole team clicking together and us having a more settled first XI that's been playing better in the last few weeks.

The more they continue to play well they should remain in the team, however Smalling is still our best CB, and Bailly has more potential long term.

 

[Drz]

Wasn't long ago everyone thought the pair of them were shit and should be sold, and Baily was by far our best defender.

Now they're our best defenders and should be first choice?

It was the same with Rooney; after being shit all season he had a couple decent games and we were told he should be first choice again.

The word fickle springs to mind.

I think regarding Jones, the main question was his fitness or likelihood to breakdown, otherwise he is at least as imposing as Smalling and has better distribution. The state of our club however requires us to have players we can count on, if he is injured for 6 months, we can't count on him. So far so good I say, just wish him a good health. The media took delight in posting odd pictures of him and bought into ridiculing him. (cheap work easy money)

Rojo, was really good with Argentina at the world cup. Came in, had a couple of decent games, but then made mistakes, got injured, lost confidence. (Could Di Maria have been a bad influence?)
He still has to mature a bit in his decision making (normal when you consider he has barely played in 2 years), I actually think he can still improve and surprise us more.

The way I see it, it is a battle between Jones and Smalling. (Have we seen Bailly and Jones at the back yet?)
A whole other question is are the champions league level players, I think Bailly could be, but I can't call it for the others.

 

[ash_86]

Are we going with RoJones or Jo-Jo?

JoRo?

Has to be RoJones but pronounced like cojones.

Totally agree. Ro-Jones is too anglicized.

Or, Let's wait till our pals from BM find some fitting names for the pair. I swear they make up the best names possible(laughable)

 

[PieCrust]

Wasn't long ago everyone thought the pair of them were shit and should be sold, and Baily was by far our best defender.

Now they're our best defenders and should be first choice?

It was the same with Rooney; after being shit all season he had a couple decent games and we were told he should be first choice again.

The word fickle springs to mind.

Actually, having good performances is what changes people's minds. It wasn't that long ago that both Jones and Rojo were either shit or injured. Having a run of form is a good thing.

 

[Dir Wangem]

On the contrary, few if any players can get into the starting XI as long as the current starting XI are working. That's exactly as it should be. You don't fiddle with something that's working just for the sake of experimentation.

Meh... I guess we just fundamentally disagree then.

 

[JJ12]

Spurs?

@Dir Wangem

They've come up against Sanchez, Kane and Lukaku - they most definitely have played good quality.

 

[Dir Wangem]

@Dir Wangem

They've come up against Sanchez, Kane and Lukaku - they most definitely have played good quality.

At the end of the day, you attack as a team. Everton is not a top team at all. Spurs is a shadow of themselves from last season, and their attack has been especially poor. Arsenal at Old Trafford with Mourinho managing the opposing team? That was never gonna be a threatening game.

I think that the only teams with genuely good attacking football right now, are Chelsea and Liverpool.

 

[JJ12]

At the end of the day, you attack as a team. Everton is not a top team at all. Spurs is a shadow of themselves from last season, and their attack has been especially poor. Arsenal at Old Trafford with Mourinho managing the opposing team? That was never gonna be a threatening game.

I think that the only teams with genuely good attacking football right now, are Chelsea and Liverpool.

So unless they play well vs those 2 they aren't good enough to start in the PL?

Can't say I agree with that.

Played well vs 3 of the top 6/7 teams in the league - I'll take that all season if they are capable of it - I doubt it but they deserve the chance.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Don't mess with a functioning machine. Jones is currently in unchartered waters atm so he can be back on the treatment table any day now. If performance levels are maintained, let the changes be enforced and the player will have to wait for the opportunity to grab hold of his place again.

 

[Dir Wangem]

So unless they play well vs those 2 they aren't good enough to start in the PL?

No. This was literally 1 argument among 6. The whole point of making a list in the first place was because one point alone doesn't hold a valid argument to keep both of them out of the starting XI.

Take away the influence of Carrick, the team clicking better, DDG's top saves, Rojo's murderous tackles and the fact that Smalling and Bailly are better players(imo), then yeah, it wouldn't matter who they played.

 

[JJ12]

No. This was literally 1 argument among 6. The whole point of making a list in the first place was because one point alone doesn't hold a valid argument to keep both of them out of the starting XI.

Take away the influence of Carrick, the team clicking better, DDG's top saves, Rojo's murderous tackles and the fact that Smalling and Bailly are better players(imo), then yeah, it wouldn't matter who they played.

I only saw the 1 that was quoted sorry. They have been tested vs some of the best in the league though.

 

[Snow]

Rojo must be 6'1 and Jones might be pushing 6', hardly way taller. Jones is pretty quick and powerful and I think in a physical contest he would get the better of Rojo though both tend to be rash, Rojo especially.

In professional sports I think 7cm is a big difference.

 

[sunama]

Keep them together while we can, the decision will be taken out of our hands soon enough, when someone gets injured or banned for a couple of games.

That's it.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I agree. The saying of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind.

It's fair to say they've both shocked everyone and been better than we could ever imagine, as the OP said we've never looked so solid, commanding and safe since Rio and vidic were here.

I say let them continue for the foreseeable.

 

[sunama]

Smalling sucks. Shouldn't be near the team. He did an effective job in a defensive team but in terms of reading the game he's terrible and just gets bailed out by his huge frame and pace.

I wouldn't say he is terrible, but average.
Smalling was only good, when the entire team played defensively. The moment we started to play with attack, which could expose our defenders and force them to...defend (if our midfielders are in attacking positions), Smalling starts making errors. The Chelsea horror show is fresh in my mind and he was to blame for 3 of our goals. Without doubt, that was the worst performance I have seen by a MUFC defender, for many years.

Rojo + Jones have proved that they can handle some decent opposition. Rondon was so frustrated at being in Rojo's pocket all game, he started falling to floor hoping for free kicks. When that didn't work, he slapped Rojo. Rondon was "done" and he knew it".
And what about Kane? This legendary player who was supposed to be so good, some fans wanted us to sign him for £70M (or some crazy amount). He came up against Rojo and Jones and once again...he was in their pocket. Completely neutralised.
Rojo and Jones have absolutely earned their place in our team.
Smalling on the other hand, after the CFC game has done nothing to suggest he can actually defend, unless he has a midfield protecting him and DDG making super saves. The one time DDG could not make super saves, we concede 4 goals.

Smalling still has some goodwill after playing well last season, but Rojo and Jones are performing well, right now. Why should they be dropped?

 

[Sir A1ex]

The fact that Rojo could / should have been sent off two matches in a row (and that's during his massively improved spell) makes me still a little unconvinced. I'd go straight back to Bailly, were it not for the ACON. As it is, maybe worth sticking with the pair until February.

More pressingly though, we won't have any option to keep JoRo together. Even if Rojo doesn't get sent off, Jones only has another match or two before he's injured.

 

[The red panther]

I agree. The saying of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind.

It's fair to say they've both shocked everyone and been better than we could ever imagine, as the OP said we've never looked so solid, commanding and safe since Rio and vidic were here.

I say let them continue for the foreseeable.

I'd say they have been decent nothing more nothing less

Also they absolutley have not been perfect, Rojo is lucky he wasn't send off for some of his stupid challenges, the biggest one against spurs. Jones has had moments of complete brainfart again, mostly not following or jumping with the guy he should be defending on set pieces and corners. But luckily for us they weren't punished for it in the game so people tend to forget about it. Also I think they offer little to nothing in terms of building up the play. Getting the ball, they have been doing that well enough but once they have it, then they always do one of the following :

1. Hoof it away
2. Play it to DDG
3. Pass it to eachother
4. Give it to Carrick or Pogba

And even that they don't always do perfectly.

So long story short but there is alot of room for improvement. Bailly is much better and he when fully fit should defenitly start games again instead of Jones.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Smalling's not done well enough this season to merit being brought straight back in without having to fight very hard for it. But the revisionism about him in this thread is crazy. A year ago everybody was convinced he was one of the few top players we had, and well on his way to becoming the best in England!

 

[Lentwood]

It is a tricky one. Those saying that they haven't been great (or that their form has been exaggerated) are wrong and those saying that they haven't been properly tested are even more wrong! Arsenal? Spurs? Plus Everton, Palace and WBA away are very tough PL away games.

I feel Bailly is already our best CB so you have to feel tempted to get him back in the side when fit - however I wouldn't be rushing him back this side of AFCON (maybe Jose could use this as a "well if you want to disappear off for a month every two years you might lose your place" kind of warning.

Smalling has always had the potential and all the attributes but you just feel that he is always on the edge of an error or a meltdown and I have always thought he is one of our main culprits for bottling games

What I like about Rojo and Jones is that both of the wear their hearts on their sleeve, make a decision and commit too it!

 

[wolvored]

If Lindelof is bought in, and its all over the press at the moment, it will be him and Bailly as the main 2. He wouldnt splash £68 million on 2 players to sit on the bench. If this Lindelof signing does happen, at least one of Jones Rojo or Smalling will be gone in the summer as he wont keep 5 central defenders on high wages. All ifs but I can see another CD being bought in even if its not Lindelof.

 

[Kazi]

Phil Jones forever

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Yes, whilst they are playing like they are, we should definitely stick with them. They've been excellent since they've come in.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Bailly in front of either for me. One swallow does not a summer make.

Agree that they have done well and, at times, assured...but Rojo should have seen red twice. For horrible tackles tbf.

Good performances of late but if we want to end up where MUFC want to be... Neither have convinced me they are first choice week in and week out for a club with our ambition. Just for me.

Pleased for Jones especially

 

[Ban]

1. Hoof it away
2. Play it to DDG
3. Pass it to eachother
4. Give it to Carrick or Pogba

And even that they don't always do perfectly.

So long story short but there is alot of room for improvement. Bailly is much better and he when fully fit should defenitly start games again instead of Jones.

I don't get it, what else they should do with the ball, charge forward?