the brainfart Jones made in the first half which led to the corner which led to the penalty thats what makes me feel unsure about Jones potential but I guess he was really great lately so we can forgive him one mistake. Rojo bossed it today though
Rojo & Jones Must Continue as First Choice
- Thread starter RedRoach
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He is lucky Rojo bailed him out and was just a corner, else Liverpool would have scored directly from his fault.
Him and Pogba cost us the game today. Jones with his stupid defending, had been doing his job then Rojo would have never had to intervene and kick the ball in corner. If Pogba wouldn't have been waiving his hands like a lunatic than that corner would have never resulted in LFC's first goal.
Jones started Liverpool's chance, Pogba finished it.
We need to decide what we want. If we want to compete for top four then jones and rojo will do. Else we need better players. We got too many players who are living here out of hype or past performance
If a full back is left 1v1 against a winger it's not hard for them winger to get in a cross if he wants to. A good cross is different and I don't remember then having one of those with Darmian on the pitch.
Can you recall their shots? 4 shots outside the box that hit the first defender. Origi barely hit a ball that traveled to De Gea's hand at a sloths pace.
There were three chances that Liverpool could score. Firmino shot from a tight angle where his body didn't allow for a powerful shot. The header from Wijnaldum which was difficult to control because both him and the ball were traveling fast and lastly the penalty which Pogba served them on a platter.
I think Rojo has improved since Jose came, but Jones is probably about the same level as when he first came to the club. I remember how he was just a beast when he first arrived, and then his form dipped considerably. Now it is just starting to come back up again.
I still think we need a commanding centre half, someone who is a leader at the back in the same way that Zlatan leads at the front and Carrick leads in midfield when he plays. We need someone cut from the same cloth as Ferdinand/Vidic/Pallister/Bruce in their prime. Some players are good players, but are not natural leaders and unfortunately I put Smalling in this category as well. Centre half is a position that is unique in the way it requires someone to organize, lead, and read the game well as well as being able to do the other basic things a defender needs to do i.e. tackle, head the ball etc. Bailly is young, and it would be unfair to ask so much of him in his first season. He does have bags of potential though.
These players are difficult to find, but if we aspire to dominate again (and I do believe we still can in this era despite what some pundits say) rather than just about manage to scrape through season after season, we need to find the next Vidic/Ferdinand.
I still think we need a commanding centre half, someone who is a leader at the back in the same way that Zlatan leads at the front and Carrick leads in midfield when he plays. We need someone cut from the same cloth as Ferdinand/Vidic/Pallister/Bruce in their prime. Some players are good players, but are not natural leaders and unfortunately I put Smalling in this category as well. Centre half is a position that is unique in the way it requires someone to organize, lead, and read the game well as well as being able to do the other basic things a defender needs to do i.e. tackle, head the ball etc. Bailly is young, and it would be unfair to ask so much of him in his first season. He does have bags of potential though.
These players are difficult to find, but if we aspire to dominate again (and I do believe we still can in this era despite what some pundits say) rather than just about manage to scrape through season after season, we need to find the next Vidic/Ferdinand.
That was first Jones' mistake in ages. Not sure why is this thread bumped?
A few games of being made to look decent by our midfield controlling things against lesser opposition and they're world beaters.
Shock, they have a poor game when the midfield struggles and we're playing a semi decent opposition.
They're 5th place quality players.
Shock, they have a poor game when the midfield struggles and we're playing a semi decent opposition.
They're 5th place quality players.
Don't want to appear harsh on Jones who hasn't done too much wrong but I'd go with Rojo and Bailly as first choice centre backs. They are the two at the moment who I've got most confidence in.
Used to love those barnstorming pitch length runs from Jones in his early days at United. I wonder if we could make a decent powerful midfielder out of him?
Used to love those barnstorming pitch length runs from Jones in his early days at United. I wonder if we could make a decent powerful midfielder out of him?
On a side note, how have you managed to cop that username
has no one seriously taken that?!One problem with Jones and Rojo is they are both quite poor headers of the ball. Jones can win it often enough, but with 50-pence-piece of a head, the quality of the header itself is poor. Neither is ever going to be a threat offensively at set pieces or the best defensively at them either.
They had a poor game?
Also them being good just cause of midfield is putting it too simple. Sometimes defenders do some stuff when ball bypasses the midfield like tackle and head the ball..
Not unless his passing has drastically improved. He used to overhit balls for fun in midfield and on the wing (as RB). We can't afford to go a season with him there on the off chance either.
Is that why every time we face an attack (ie. when the ball comes past midfield) we look like conceding, make mistakes, and somehow end up with one of their players in loads of space to shoot? I realise playing a higher line contributes to this, but it doesn't excuse the majority of it.
I don't see it. Neither we look like conceding when we face an attack nor we make mistakes nor one of their players has a space for a shot.
You meant in general or today?
Jones made a big mistake today and that was the first time in months either of them made such a mistake.
Those who are blaming Jones for the PK... You all are morons. Are we going to start criticizing every person responsible for giving away a corner? We should defend any set piece, regardless of how it happened.
In general and today, but more in general. Jones made a bad mistake, and I think it was Wijnaldum who messed up a a big chance for them in loads of space in the box later on. It happens regularly though.
Against Hull we came very close to conceding first twice whilst we had 80% possession.
Going back a bit now (it's happened in between too), but Arsenal is obviously a stand out - who we absolutely dominated in midfield, then couldn't deal with the single attack they had.
I may be wrong but vs Arsenal it wasnt Jones and Rojo in pair.
What was that 2nd Jones' big mistake?
Jones mistakes don't happen regulary, they happen very, very rarely and long may it continue.
Also although Hull had that chance it doesnt seem to me we look like conceding every time a team attacks and other stuff you said. I think we look composed in defense and not just cause of midfield.
It was those two. It was Jones who collapsed at Giroud's feet if I remember correctly. Even if it hadn't been, my general thoughts are that we're not very good at the back and need a top class CB to partner Bailly in the long run. We can't have a defence that's just about good enough against the lesser teams if we want to be competing in the CL.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one
Jones only made one mistake and what important is Rojo recovered it well. Good communication! They both understand and aware if their partner can make mistakes sometime. But that doesn't mean Jones's place is irreplaceable. Smalling and Bailly are surely looking for chance. Rojo has been our best CB this season I must admit I didn't rate him since last season but he's been very solid this season apart from his two foot challenges that he did this season.
Jones' performance today may affect people's opinion on the partnership. However, let not it cloud our judgement. Even Carrick was poor today. Carrick is predictably bad vs pressing team, but to this extend it's a surprise and shock our team performance adding to Pogba having a bad game too. With Bailly is out, having Smalling next to Rojo then we should as well starting with hoof ball from the beginning.
Jones made one mistake. The partnership was as solid as ever, how many real chances did Liverpool have until the end when the game was really open? Sergio Ramos headed the ball into his own goal a few hours ago, everyone makes mistakes.
Jones' mistake was no where near as bad as Pogba's (nor was he was poor as Pogba overall) but no one's calling for the latter to be dropped and rightly so.
Jones - Rojo is fine and will continue to be fine under current circumstances.
Jones - Rojo is fine and will continue to be fine under current circumstances.
Agreed, he has genuinely been at his best bar that mistake today. Positionally astute and does not concede mindless free kicks or yellows.
Rojo has been solid too, but to be honest he has been much more likely to have a costly moment of madness (silly challenges, etc.).
Neither of them are good enough on the ball/ in possession for me.
Jones seemed rattled all day today, simply couldn't sort his feet out or move the ball quick enough.
Liverpool press, I get it... shouldn't reduce us to lumping the ball around like a pack of melons.
Jones seemed rattled all day today, simply couldn't sort his feet out or move the ball quick enough.
Liverpool press, I get it... shouldn't reduce us to lumping the ball around like a pack of melons.
I think they've done very well together recently and are big reasons to our exceptional good run, but I would like to see Bailly and Rojo together eventually.
They were decent. The Jones brainfart aside (which he was rescued by Rojo, which you hope defenders who play together would do for each other), they were decent at defending and limited Liverpool chances.
They were both poor on the ball especially the number of times it looked like they were just smashing it awa rather than getting it out and passing it. Rojo is guilty of that. Jones is guilty of getting the ball, turning back to face DDG and then passing it to him and not getting in space for a return ball, thus DDG needs to smash it forward (Jones could save time by doing it himself).
They were both poor on the ball especially the number of times it looked like they were just smashing it awa rather than getting it out and passing it. Rojo is guilty of that. Jones is guilty of getting the ball, turning back to face DDG and then passing it to him and not getting in space for a return ball, thus DDG needs to smash it forward (Jones could save time by doing it himself).
Would have preferred blind in defence yesterday. Calm head would have sprayed the balls around instead of just lumping it forward.
So, when Bailly comes back from Afcon and all four defenders are fully fit, what will be the preferred CB duo?
I'm going to guess Rojo-Bailly if I had to put a tenner on it. I feel that Rojo is by far the most comfortable at LCB and Bailly is simply better than either Jones or Smalling.
Also, Rojo and Bailly are better with the ball at their feet and building play from the back.
I'm going to guess Rojo-Bailly if I had to put a tenner on it. I feel that Rojo is by far the most comfortable at LCB and Bailly is simply better than either Jones or Smalling.
Also, Rojo and Bailly are better with the ball at their feet and building play from the back.
People here say Baily is simply better than Jones . I would like to know how that happend !
At the beginning of the season I suggested that Jones will be jose first choice CB if he can stay out of injuries . And frankly I dont see that changing anytime soon and Jones will be our first choice CB unless he is injured again.
To the people who all are bashing him for that single mistake , can you point out me a defender who barely makes mistakes ? High press is always difficult to contain and Jones/Rojo actually contain them well bar that one mistake . There is no defender in the whole world who never makes mistakes , who can handle the press and contain it well unless you go back to 1990's. To me it was pogba who is 100 % fault for the penalty ( there was couple of incidents where he just couldn't clear balls ).
We need Shaw to be fit as early as possible because nothing is happening from that side. And if our striker's was better in front of goal I dont think anybody would have given importance to that mistake much. And yesterday we basically played with 10 players ( Pogba was so shit ! ) until the break and 9 players after the break ( Pogba gone to hiding and rooney was comical : both were helping Liverpool than United ). So cannot expect to have a better result. So move on and focus on one game at a time . Win next week and we are either close to Spurs or atleast level with City .
Expecting some surprises from the teams lying the second half from now on especially Everton , Southampton, Westham , Bournemouth etc
At the beginning of the season I suggested that Jones will be jose first choice CB if he can stay out of injuries . And frankly I dont see that changing anytime soon and Jones will be our first choice CB unless he is injured again.
To the people who all are bashing him for that single mistake , can you point out me a defender who barely makes mistakes ? High press is always difficult to contain and Jones/Rojo actually contain them well bar that one mistake . There is no defender in the whole world who never makes mistakes , who can handle the press and contain it well unless you go back to 1990's. To me it was pogba who is 100 % fault for the penalty ( there was couple of incidents where he just couldn't clear balls ).
We need Shaw to be fit as early as possible because nothing is happening from that side. And if our striker's was better in front of goal I dont think anybody would have given importance to that mistake much. And yesterday we basically played with 10 players ( Pogba was so shit ! ) until the break and 9 players after the break ( Pogba gone to hiding and rooney was comical : both were helping Liverpool than United ). So cannot expect to have a better result. So move on and focus on one game at a time . Win next week and we are either close to Spurs or atleast level with City .
Expecting some surprises from the teams lying the second half from now on especially Everton , Southampton, Westham , Bournemouth etc
Rojo was brilliant yet again. Jones however has no composure, none whatsoever. Also prone to brainfarts. I look forward to a Bailly and Rojo partnership.
Jones made one mistake. Can you point out his earlier brainfarts?
Rojo was damn good but remember that he managed to escape two red cards in two games. As in whole there is not much difference between them and they communicate well too. Don't break something that's working fine
I thought Jones did well. Got in the way of stuff he didn't necessarily have the right to. Annoying.
His passing was terrible, easy options forwards to players in midfield, instead he decides to 360 and go to keeper.
Because we were playing long balls in the second half...
Yes.. His composure was not good, but as a defender who missed almost two seasons of football and barely played against any pressing sides in his career till, I believe he did well. And he is still 24 ( turning 25 next month). And I don't think Bailey or Smalling would have done better too.
And to me defense isnt the problem..we were playing with 10 guys in the first half and with 9 guys in the second half ( Pogba and Rooney were really terrible). So cannot expect anything more
That's a bit self fulfilling though. We reverted to long balls because our defenders (and others) weren't sharp enough to pass through their press.
Did you see Bailly at the beginning of the season? He was fantastic, he took to this league like duck to water. A combination of Rio & Vidic, with Messi thrown in there for good measure.
Am I the only one, that thinks Firmino fouled him after his bad first touch before that corner?
And did you see Jones when Bailey got injured? He didn't even make a single mistake for how many minutes.. And frankly Bailly is quite poor in air compared to Jones.Did you see Bailly at the beginning of the season? He was fantastic, he took to this league like duck to water. A combination of Rio & Vidic, with Messi thrown in there for good measure.
Both are good defender's and there is much to differ between the two
That's the point. There are not many defenders who can do that. The so called best defenders like Pique or Ramos or Hummels won't be able to contain that. Other than Chiellini, Boateng and Silva to an extend ( he have his fair share of errors though) I cannot find much defenders who have that kind of composure.
Another point is, it's not just Jones who doesn't had the composure, Carrick and Pogba was so poor too on the ball and struggle to keep the ball. So you cannot say we reverted to long balls because our defenders weren't sharp enough. Unless we have a players like Verratii in the mid, long balls are the medicine towards press!
The point is, from nowhere, he got us in a severely dangerous position, where we absolutely got away with it ONLY being a corner.
We could easily have conceded from his mistake.
Having said this, I for one was super grateful when in about the 92nd minute, he dived at a cross, with no worries for his safety, to head one out of the box.
I'd have Smalling and Bailly personally when the time is right. Seems a more pacy, and more strength in the air all round combo
Im fine with playing long balls to get past the press, and Im also fine with sticking with Jones and Rojo for now because you don't face teams that press like Liverpool every week.
But over the next few years we're going to have to consistently beat high pressing teams like City, Liverpool and Spurs (and, hopefully, various other teams in the Champions League). So while there may not be many defenders that can pass through a press, we need to find them.
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