Rotation…

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
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Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
 
We don't have quality depth to constantly rotate if we want to compete. We need Rashford, Amad, Garna, Hojlund, Bruno, Mainoo, Maz, Licha, De Ligt, Ugarte on the pitch for most games. Mount should never start again, he offers nothing.
 
Rozay said:
Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
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Don't think this is true, Amorim explained in the post match interview that players will be getting as much time as they can without risking an injury, and that each player currently has a different amount of max playing time without risking an injury. He also bought up some examples. Makes perfect sense to me. Not have half the squad injured by mismanaging like with ETH.


He explains here at 1.30

 
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There's a few factors that went into the team selection

1. He doesn't know his best team yet so he's giving everyone a chance
2. Hojlund, Zirkzee and Rashford have all recently bagged 2 goals each so he had to drop some "in form" players, it was unavoidable.
3. One good game after months of being awful shouldn't make you an automatic starter (this can apply to many players).
4. Tactical reasons that he wanted 2 proper full backs at wing back to make us more defensively solid away from home against one of the best teams in the league.
5. Ten Hag used to run the same players into the ground every 3/4 days and it was a disaster in this age of hectic football schedules. You need to rotate
 
Yep, get every player accustomed to this particular formation/ set up and eventually weed out the players who he and the club believes cant adjust to his overall philosophy.

We're going to witness more personal changes in the 11 through out the remainder of the campaign but the set up/formation will, more or less, continue to be the same.

Some players will get accostumed to the set up, some will unfortunately be incapable of adapting to the style due to no fault of their own and some will, irrespective of the set up, will just illustrate a complete lack of effort and dedication in doing so.
 
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Rozay said:
Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
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We don't know if that is his strategy and the dataset is very small so next to impossible to really get some insights from.

The starting eleven was a bit of a suprise to me as well but not in the sense of "what, thats shocking" but in the sense "hmm I thought, he'd go the other way around". We played deeper today, which theoretically should put our players closer to each other which should theoretically make defending easier for anybody. With that, the chances to get away with Bruno at CM go at least a little up. He also put in Mount who usually pops up with good intensity and workrate so can act as another mitigating factore not to play a 2nd defender in midfield.

There are many factors at the same time, maybe Amad or Rashford were knackered and therefor rested, maybe there were more key to Amos strategy against Everton than they would have been for the game today. Maybe the suspensions of Mainoo and Martinez changed the plan as well.

Amorim at Sporting, from what you hear in the media, was known to tinker a lot, tweaking player selection, role definitions, overall approach and gameplan always depending on who the opponent was. Fairly sure he isn't going to change that after 2 weeks with us. If you add that he has to learn on the job about the players strengths and weaknesses, it only adds another factor in an already excessive list. My feel is the guy will be a nightmare to predict lineups for - and I think, that is a very good thing.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Don't think this is true, Amorim explained in the post match interview that players will be getting as much time as they can without risking an injury, and that each player currently has a different amount of max playing time without risking an injury. He also bought up some examples. Makes perfect sense to me. Not have half the squad injured by mismanaging like with ETH.


He explains here at 1.30

Click to expand...


I’d be interested to see how we’ve concluded that if these players start two games in a row they are likely to be injured, in that case.
 
NZT-One said:
We don't know if that is his strategy and the dataset is very small so next to impossible to really get some insights from.

The starting eleven was a bit of a suprise to me as well but not in the sense of "what, thats shocking" but in the sense "hmm I thought, he'd go the other way around". We played deeper today, which theoretically should put our players closer to each other which should theoretically make defending easier for anybody. With that, the chances to get away with Bruno at CM go at least a little up. He also put in Mount who usually pops up with good intensity and workrate so can act as another mitigating factore not to play a 2nd defender in midfield.

There are many factors at the same time, maybe Amad or Rashford were knackered and therefor rested, maybe there were more key to Amos strategy against Everton than they would have been for the game today. Maybe the suspensions of Mainoo and Martinez changed the plan as well.

Amorim at Sporting, from what you hear in the media, was known to tinker a lot, tweaking player selection, role definitions, overall approach and gameplan always depending on who the opponent was. Fairly sure he isn't going to change that after 2 weeks with us. If you add that he has to learn on the job about the players strengths and weaknesses, it only adds another factor in an already excessive list. My feel is the guy will be a nightmare to predict lineups for - and I think, that is a very good thing.
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It’s surely something of a surprise/shocking when a MOTM from one game is left out of the lineup for the next, no?
 
Rozay said:
It’s surely something of a surprise/shocking when a MOTM from one game is left out of the lineup for the next, no?
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Puh, I don't know. For me personally, I'd say no. MOTM can be based on my things. Being lucky. Having a opponent player who really has a stinker, popping up at the right space at the right time. So I personally wouldn't overvalue such things but as I said, I would have expected to see Amad in the starting lineup. But it really wasn't a shock to see a more defensive setup. Thats why I am happy we have a "rational" (lack of a better word...) coach now, somebody who decides for suiting a specific plan, not on "he just found the net twice".
 
Rozay said:
I’d be interested to see how we’ve concluded that if these players start two games in a row they are likely to be injured, in that case.
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He didn't just talk about injury prevention in there. I can understand your take but I personally don't have a feeling that it is some turn-based thing happening at the moment. What he says in the interview rather speaks against it, I listed a few other factors as well. Do you think, it was a mistake not starting Rashford or Amad today?
 
I see where you're coming from. The best teams play their best players in the biggest games. "Rotation" is confined to the games against weaker opposition or in less important competitions.

If resting Amad is so important, he could have been taken off with half an hour to go v Everton at 3-0.
 
He is managing player game loads whilst trying to have the equivalent of a pre season slap bang in the middle of the season during the most busy part of the season. With zero training time trying to teach his entire squad a new structue and tactical method of play. So far he is managing very well. Anyone who thinks he has found his best 11 already is clearly not serious two. He is no where close to that
 
I don't mind rotation and can understand him wanting to give all the players a fresh start, chance to prove themselves and all that

But after a solid win, this seems like too much change - literally every outfield position was changed from the Everton starting line up, only Onana kept his place and position

With some huge games coming up, Amorim surely needs to find some consistency
 
He's also squad rotating because, as the previous seasons have shown, we have a high number of players who repeatedly pick up injuries when they've played continually.
 
Our fanbase is honestly hopeless. He's talked about it over and over, it has nothing to do with whose turn it is. We have a busy schedule, and you will notice that the starting 11s in alternating games will look more similar than successive games, especially with a lot of our players returning from injuries and a lot of them have fitness levels that don't allow the kind of pressing and running he is expecting from them. Here are some quotes.

Busy schedule: "It is what it is. We will rotate players and we'll be ready. We managed the fitness so we have to do it. No excuse."

Short recovery time: "We need to have the ball, because we have a short time to recover. We need to rotate the team."

This was in reference to Dalot as an example: "He is very powerful. We have to rotate him sometimes because he looks always fresh but it's not always like that, he's not a machine."

Before the Everton game, on the games coming so quickly after one another: "We are aware this will be the case, so there are no excuses. We need to be prepared for Sunday, and we must secure a win. We will adjust the lineup and be ready."

Spoke about rotation early on: "We have to do it, especially in this moment because we have a lot of games, we are in the beginning of something, they have to feel they are part of the team. They are international players, we will rotate and we will try to manage to win every game and not just focus on this game, and have a clear idea of how to play. Everybody has to be on the same page."

And again: "Without training you have to use the games. I felt we played with more intensity. Mason Mount for 60 minutes with high intensity, Rasmus was dead in the end. The guys that are playing have to push more and the other guys have to train tomorrow. Luke Shaw did some minutes but he has to train again."


He can consistently pick the same 11 every 3-4 days and then we can consistently continue to cry on here about the injuries, the low running stats, the lack of pressing, and so on.
 
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Rood said:
I don't mind rotation and can understand him wanting to give all the players a fresh start, chance to prove themselves and all that

But after a solid win, this seems like too much change - literally every outfield position was changed from the Everton starting line up, only Onana kept his place and position

With some huge games coming up, Amorim surely needs to find some consistency
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Well, Martinez was suspended, Shaw was injured, that meant swaping Maz and de Ligt and bringing in Harry. Mainoo was suspended too. Zirkzee played the full 90 last time around didn't he?

I think people have already made the relevant points on what he is trying to do. And I am certainly in favour of him addressing the long-term at the cost of the short-term, which is what this club has needed for 11 years (longer than that to be fair).

We also had Ole and ETH both guilty of running players into the ground.
 
If he wants to stick with current first team bunch, there is nothing wrong with rotating and his decision to do so, either way there is no difference, majority of them are overpaid underperforming cnuts anyway, so its a same shit
 
Rozay said:
Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
Click to expand...
For me if it means long term success over the short, then I'm all for it. I don't mind us dropping points in the pursuit of finding what/who works best for us going forward. Like you say, it's probably the fastest way to get everyone up to speed and hopefully he will see his strongest and most effective line up quicker this way and will have ideas on where needs to be focused on to upgrade going forward.

In the short term it can be frustrating to watch, knowing that we have players on the bench that would probably do a better job than some on the pitch although I was resigned to us having another poor season before Amorim took over so I'm happy enough to go along with his chopping and changing in the hopes that it speeds up some sort of improvement.
 
It's rotation with an eye on planning what players play against who. He picked the right players on the day, he went more defensive against Arsenal and then Amad came on at half and it didn't really work even if Amad did well individually. Our squad has been a disaster with fitness in large part due to Ten Hag never rotating. It's just managing the squad properly.
 
I think he's trying to give every player a chance to show him they can do it here under him.

He's also looking at a couple of players in particular and trying then out in different positions to guage if they can fit into his way of playing.

I don't have an issue with it he had said he likes a settled side but he has to work out what that is in the meantime.
 
I think it depends on game tactics, injury prevention and getting everyone up to speed, also giving players chance to play and shine.

In defense, the most stable area, the likes of Maz, De Ligt, Martinez and Dalot have become a some sort of permanent fixture, I think Martinez would've started if he wasn't suspended, so if Martinez had played today, I guess Yoro and Maguire coming back to the squad might mean Maz will go back to play in the wing role ahead of Amad, Amad is not a defender for me, so I think he was doing a job, now that Martinez, Maguire, Malacia and Yoro are back, I don't expect to see Amad in the RWB.

In midfield, in the 2 sitting CMs and the one of the AMs, I see Ugarte & Bruno being the main players to basically start every match, and the rest will play based on tactics and fitness, so Cas, Mainoo and Mount will rotate there, not sure if Eriksen will see any game time if the other 5 are fit and available.

For the attacking group, in one of the AMs and the CF, we have 4 players that are being paired and rotated, Garna and Hojlund are paired, while Rashford and Zirkzee are paired, obviously this is based on 3 games, Bodo, Everton and Arsenal, here is where I see it's based on turns rather than fitness and tactics, Amorim is giving each attacker a chance to play and shine, I want Amad to be included in of the attacking AM roles and allow him to shine there since we have enough bodies
 
Rozay said:
Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
Click to expand...

I was frustrated but also honestly much prefer a bit of "overrotation" for now over the previous regime where we picked the exact same XI players pretty much without regard for how the previous outing went, who is tired, who is fit, or anything else.

Amorim doing this right now is also going to help when it ultimately comes time to put some players on the chopping block, because it will already have been clear to fans who belongs on the pitch and at the club still and who isn't good enough, as opposed to anyone wondering.
 
I understand the reasons. Some better than others. But I did not like the starting XI against Arsenal one bit.
 
There is nothing wrong with rotation, in fact, he should and he must. We need a squad of 16 fit players. The only question is who to play against which team. As a matter of fact, my 1st criticism on ETH was his lack of rotation particularly during 1st season, only Varane and Shaw was rotated, Martinez played until foot broken.

Someone said Amad should start, I don't think so, a more defensive minded wingback should be a safer option, until we want / need to go forward.

Someone said Rashford should start, you are talking about Rashford 3 seasons ago. Currently he is just 1 of the option, not a must.

This is the moment when you would rather play City than Liverpool or Arsenal, unfortunately we lost 2 key players for the game as well.
 
Play with the thought he didn't believe we could match Arsenal before a ball was kicked yesterday. Could explain his starting line-up. Malacia's performance against all odds will have shown him exactly what he wanted to see.
 
It's basically pre season trying to implement his ideas except against fully fit oppositions. He's still learning about the team, I hope he learns very quickly about some players for example we haven't seen Eriksen at all since the first the first game. Let's see were we're at after say 10-15 games.
 
Amorim was very open that this is, what he would do. And he did it. He also promised us, that we will suffer, so you know what to expect this season.

It's okay with me. Noone was expecting a CL-place anyway after the EtH collapse. He tried to alter his style and play to the strengths of the squad. I'm open to throw away this season and instead try to build a team with a strong tactical foundation, that can be successful in the premier league. But we'll have to deliver next season (that means top 4 and good football)
 
Bastian said:
Well, Martinez was suspended, Shaw was injured, that meant swaping Maz and de Ligt and bringing in Harry. Mainoo was suspended too. Zirkzee played the full 90 last time around didn't he?

I think people have already made the relevant points on what he is trying to do. And I am certainly in favour of him addressing the long-term at the cost of the short-term, which is what this club has needed for 11 years (longer than that to be fair).

We also had Ole and ETH both guilty of running players into the ground.
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Like I said, I'm ok with rotation in general but this is too much

I doubt we have ever changed every outfield position from one game to the next in the whole PL history before

Some changes were forced but not all and I'm not ready to be writing off the whole league season on the promise of 'long term gain', a couple of good results and we are right back in CL contention
 
Amorim clearly said that the rotation is required to manage fitness levels. He clearly wants the players to run much more and it makes sense to me. Why should we make up reasons where the manager is very transparent in respect of that point….
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Don't think this is true, Amorim explained in the post match interview that players will be getting as much time as they can without risking an injury, and that each player currently has a different amount of max playing time without risking an injury. He also bought up some examples. Makes perfect sense to me. Not have half the squad injured by mismanaging like with ETH.


He explains here at 1.30

Click to expand...


I think this is true yeah that it's primarily to manage injury risk but also the question is why exactly? Rather than it just being about short-term having everyone available for selection to try and win games, this could be him making sure everyone gets minutes to adapt to the new system as well as an opportunity for him to get a good look at everyone in the squad before the summer as he works out who'll be a good fit and who won't.
 
Chelsea are doing rotation very well this season but of course it helps having a strong second 11.
 
Biggins said:
Amorim clearly said that the rotation is required to manage fitness levels. He clearly wants the players to run much more and it makes sense to me. Why should we make up reasons where the manager is very transparent in respect of that point….
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I’m seeing a lot of ‘he said’ m. He has ‘clearly said’ a lot of things - including that ‘we have to train. We will change the team so everyone has an opportunity to train. Those who play cannot train, and the others will train’.

So as I said in my very first post, there is certainly a likelihood, or at least a possibility, that he is treating this period as something of a pre-season and and wants everyone to take turns between playing and training. Which has its merits, as I also pointed out, for the defensive ones like @Squeaky_Bum_Time whose take to my post was ‘our fanbase is hopeless’. The long term benefits are obvious.

In the short term, you would hope Amad plays against City, for example, but there’s nothing to indicate that he necessarily will, even if fit, seeing as the XI doesn’t appear to be picked on how people played last time out. Wouldn’t surprise me if Antony starts instead, for example, just due to sheer rotation and nothing more.
 
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