Roulette Draft - R1: Idmanager vs Don Alfredo

[idmanager]

Much of the Alves video had Barca double teaming Ronaldo. That said Alves does do pretty well with his recovery speed defending on the counter. That said he does resort to early fouls a bit and Boniek is a much better dribbler than the Real Ronaldo.

I'll give you that, but then Nasazzi is a much better cover than Puyol too

And for all the Alves discussion, the leeway given to Don's left side seems very unfair.

With respect to false 9age Nordahl was Milan's target man for much of the time and John Charles played there for Juve. False 9age was more common than I originally made out but I don't think it was quite as common as you seem to suggest

Nordahl is not playing in that game and Grillo from what I read is a player who mostly dropped into the midfield as a playmaker.

Anyways, I dont suggest that it was the norm of the day, but quite a good number of teams adopted it and so there is no reason to say Santamaria would never have faced a team like that.

 

[idmanager]

I didnt want to bring this up because Uruguay lost but Hungary with Hidegkuti as false 9 played against Santamaria's Uruguay in 1954 WC. That there is a real big game example.

@Physiocrat

 

[idmanager]

Time to hit the bed, hopefully I have made up for missing out on posting in the final last time around. I'll stop talking to myself now

 

[Don Alfredo]

The 50's was all about the false 9 coming deep and the two inside forwards making darting runs in which started with the Hungarians, then Real Madrid followed suite and you would see its traces all across Europe.

Take the 1958-59 European Cup final for example

I had the chance to pick Nordahl and Liedholm/Schiaffino. That would have been much better in terms of vote winning than Totti-Kaka, but I specifically went the other route. I didn't want to compete with a physical 9 against Santamaria, that is why a skillful false 9 who drops into midfield is perfect. Kaka is rated much lower than Schiaffino or Liedholm here, but I chose him because he is the better fit for my counter-attacking side, drifting to the right and beating Abidal with his dribbling and pace. Schiaffino or Liedholm could have never done that role.

You say that Kaka's skill set was not unique, but please tell me one number 10 who could score goals and was as fast with the ball as he was? Please no striker who played second striker or something, a number 10 with exactly those qualities.

I will try to reply all the questions you posed before, but I am still bad with the multi quote function so please excuse me double posting.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Two sides I liked a lot during drafting. Its an interesting matchup with the two different tactical systems. Don took a few players I was considering combo'ing in Cabrini and Boniek. I really like those two working together.
I'll read the thread and think more as I am curious mostly in how both teams CBs are dealing with the two very different CFs. I think that could make the difference here.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Firstly, if you have assigned Boniek to keep tabs on Alves, that breaks your setup in the attack completely.
The idea behind Spaletti's Roma where Totti played the false 9 role was on counters when Totti came deep, he had the wide players to quickly setup onto the goal.
Assigning any defensive duties on Boniek or Bale is simply suicidal for your system with the role Totti is playing.

First I said Boniek is not following Alves without limit. In my formation graphic you see Boniek is very close to the centre of the pitch. He can easily limit Alves influence in midfield there and if you send Alves further up field, he leaves space behind.

Wait, why do I need my playmaker to cover for Alves. Nasazzi is perfect foil when Boniek cuts in and if he manages to beat Alves. That is how it worked at Barca as well with Puyol donning that role. Why does every setup need a MF to support a fullback?

The biggest factor to cover for Alves's shortcomings was not Puyol, but Barca's pressing. You won the ball and immediately lost it again because Barca was structured to win it back quickly and they did it perfectly. You have no kind of that system here in place. Alves was much more of a liability at Brazil than at Barca because the tactics did not cover him.

That is not true by any stretch of imagination. How about Fachettit/Schnellinger/Nilton for starters? Cabrini was known for his attacking output and that is what made him a great in that position. I am not calling him a nut or to be Marcelo, but you have to remember who he is dealing with. Its Stanley fecking Matthews who ran rings around greats like Nilton Santos on his day.

I never said I rate Cabrini better defensively than those guys, just that there is no one besides Maldini and Krol who is clearly much more solid than him. I rate Cabrini similar in a defensive sense to Facchetti/Nilton/Schnellinger. That is what makes him a elite fullback, being great in attack and in defense.

I am sorry mate, but I don't think you can build a solid back 4 when you are playing on the counter with Passarella and Cabrini on one side in a 4 man defense. Unless of course, you completely remove their attacking instincts and call them second best to just Maldini and Figueroa. Passarella in fact was always suspect to leaving gaps and needed covering throughout his career.

There is no shame to being second best to Maldini and Figueroa. Those guys are blocked and Passarella and Cabrini come next in line when it comes to great LBs/CBs.

I don't agree with Passarella being suspect but I have actually a big synergy in central defence with Passarella and Varane. Varane excelled next to Ramos, a defender who is much worse than Passarella but has certain similar traits. Ball-playing CB, intercepting passes, impeccable in the air, scoring crucial goals at set pieces in key moments, one of the best leaders ever. Passarella-Varane is a great combination and Varane is one of the fastest CB ever, perfect for covering any gaps in defence. I don't think there will be many because I have a compact back 6 and not an attacking side like Real Madrid was. They always played with 2 super attacking fullbacks and Casemiro is the only DM in the squad. Whenever he was not available, it was 442 with Carvajal-Varane-Ramos-Marcelo-Vazquez-Kovacic-Kroos-Asensio-Ronaldo-Benzema. Imagine covering for that bunch of players who hate tracking back and all want to score the deciding goal.

The whole point of Suarez on the right is to keep Edwards busy. If he goes out helping Cabrini, Suarez is free to run riot.
Lets not forget Passarella is assigned to Kocsis. I am not sure how he covers for Cabrini and helps out against Kocsis. Surely he cant help defend stopping the cross coming in from Matthews and winning the header from Kocsis both on his own?

If Edwards helps on the side, Tardelli is in center midfield. That is the point of having two midfielders with insane stamina, physicality and ability in covering for other players. They know where to move, how to help, how to reduce gaps. It is a compact back 6, why would I not keep it compact and leave gaps in central midfield. For you to have a free man or gain any kind of numerical advantage in attack, you would need to attack with 7 players, but you don't want Abidal or Vasovic rushing forward don't you.

 

[harms]

I think DA's team would've been so much better with a deep-lying playmaker (be it Koeman or Pirlo or anyone else with their vision and long ball passing from the deep) — I mean, Boniek, Kaka and Bale running at full speed at some through-ball/diagonal Just the first thought, haven't even looked at the match up properly

 

[Don Alfredo]

Underrated? How? Don't tell me you rate Bale at par with Robben? He simply hasnt had a career like him. One overhead kick in a UCL final doesn't change that he has never reached his potential

There are multiple players who never reached their potential because of injuries, but are still loved on here because of what they did in the game.

You say that line with the one overhead kick like it was a fluke. It was not a fluke, it was his second CL final winner. That is some serious big game quality. In 2014, he also scored the winner in the Copa Del Rey final vs Barca with an unbelievable sprint in the dying minutes of the game.

Let's look at Robben's big game quality: he choked in the biggest game of his life in 2010 vs Spain, he also choked in 2012 against Chelsea in the CL final. He did score the winner in the 2013 final, that is one less UCL final winner than Bale scored.

So you say me the guy with the 4 CL wins hasn't had a career like the guy with the 1 UCL win? Robben also was at Madrid and had injury problems just like Bale, but he was much worse than him. Robben also played in England and never won player of the year there, which Bale won 2 times.

Where does speed come into picture when Abidal, Vasovic , Santamaria and Nasazzi are staying back? Bale and Kaka will have to beat them to have a shot, not beat them for pace in a race.

You can't have your attackers stay at the back or you will have big gaps between the lines. Vasovic is not enough to stop Totti/Kaka/Boniek doing some serious damage from attacking midfield. That is why you have to a higher line or you accept big big gaps in your side.

Again, how? Injuries or no injuries, he has simply not fulfilled his potential at Madrid. If not for that UCL final goal, most would have declared his Madrid stint a failure. Forget Ronaldo, do you think he has even had a career like Robben's?

I answered that above He is also on course to be the big star at Madrid now that Ronaldo is gone, having scored 3 goals in the first 3 games.

Sure mate. I will hold onto further 1 on 1 arguments till you are back

Thanks mate, appreciate that. I will do one more post on the playmaker criticism, which has been brought up multiple times, and then go to bed as well.

 

[Theon]

I’m surprised Varane was picked, good player but I don’t rate his body of work at the level required in this company.

Rest of the defence is great though, Passarella / Cabrini looks good to me and I disagree that the former needs any greater defensive protection from his fullback. Think the criticism often gets overblown for Passarella more than the other sweepers, whereas I actually associate him very little with that given how pure he was as a defender (stopper-ish, great in the air, physically aggressive).

Not sure on Boniek’s central role/remit. Think a false #9 Totti works better with two advanced wide forwards, who he can play in with his equisite passing.

Front three for Idmanager looks absolutely sublime. Only thing I’m not sure on is Vasovic as a DM - would be good to get some more info there, though no doubt he has the skill set for it.

 

[Enigma_87]

Only thing I’m not sure on is Vasovic as a DM - would be good to get some more info there, though no doubt he has the skill set for it.

Last time(and first time) I put him there it costed me the game.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@P-Nut0712 @idmanager @harms

You all said I needed a traditional playmaker in there and I briefly said before that Totti is my playmaker.


This is the best video of Totti that I know. It showcases his insane skill, passes and hold-up play, exactly what I want from him in this game. It is a pretty long video, but you get the gist even if you just watch a couple of minutes.

Overhead passes can be found at 1:14, goals from the edge of the box start at 11:50

I lost count at the number of backheel passes and nutmegs in this video. It also has tons of unbelievable long passes from deep, in the same quality as most traditional playmakers.

Lastly I want to say that there have been multiple counter attacking sides who were great without a traditional playmaker. Uruguay with Forlan/Suarez/Cavani up front played sexy counter attacking football without any playmaker, that is just one example.

I’m surprised Varane was picked, good player but I don’t rate his body of work at the level required in this company.

Rest of the defence is great though, Passarella / Cabrini looks good to me and I disagree that the former needs any greater defensive protection from his fullback. Think the criticism often gets overblown for Passarella more than the other sweepers, whereas I actually associate him very little with that given how pure he was as a defender (stopper-ish, great in the air, physically aggressive).

Not sure on Boniek’s central role/remit. Think a false #9 Totti works better with two advanced wide forwards, who he can play in with his equisite passing.

Front three for Idmanager looks absolutely sublime. Only thing I’m not sure on is Vasovic as a DM - would be good to get some more info there, though no doubt he has the skill set for it.

The problem with Boniek is you can't showcase his movement in a single picture. I tried to adress this in my write-up, saying that Boniek will pop up all over the place in attack, Bale running vertically/diagonally/switching to the left and Kaka breaking through central/on the right. Just a whole lot of attacking movement of players who excelled because of their movement and 3 weapons for Totti to pick out or combine with.

I already explained why Passarella-Varane is a great pairing and will make a longer post on why Varane deserves to be here tomorrow.

I want to give Idmanager a chance to respond and will go to bed now

 

[Theon]

Nah, that’s not the best Totti video @Don Alfredo (overcooked and gimmicky imo!).

This is a better Totti video - compilation of his passing which is absolutely outstanding. Think he has a fair shout at being the most incisive passer of the last 15 years or so (in contrast to a tempo setter like Xavi).

 

[P-Nut]

@P-Nut0712 @idmanager @harms

You all said I needed a traditional playmaker in there and I briefly said before that Totti is my playmaker.


This is the best video of Totti that I know. It showcases his insane skill, passes and hold-up play, exactly what I want from him in this game. It is a pretty long video, but you get the gist even if you just watch a couple of minutes.

Overhead passes can be found at 1:14, goals from the edge of the box start at 11:50

I lost count at the number of backheel passes and nutmegs in this video. It also has tons of unbelievable long passes from deep, in the same quality as most traditional playmakers.

Lastly I want to say that there have been multiple counter attacking sides who were great without a traditional playmaker. Uruguay with Forlan/Suarez/Cavani up front played sexy counter attacking football without any playmaker, that is just one example.



The problem with Boniek is you can't showcase his movement in a single picture. I tried to adress this in my write-up, saying that Boniek will pop up all over the place in attack, Bale running vertically/diagonally/switching to the left and Kaka breaking through central/on the right. Just a whole lot of attacking movement of players who excelled because of their movement and 3 weapons for Totti to pick out or combine with.

I already explained why Passarella-Varane is a great pairing and will make a longer post on why Varane deserves to be here tomorrow.

I want to give Idmanager a chance to respond and will go to bed now

Oh yeah I rate Totti' front end playmaking, I was more on about someone to spray the balls for the quick counter attacks from the edge of your own box type of thing.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@idmanager is not here, but this match ends in a few hours and I have no idea what the score is, so I wanted to give some more points to discuss.

Nah, that’s not the best Totti video @Don Alfredo (overcooked and gimmicky imo!).

This is a better Totti video - compilation of his passing which is absolutely outstanding. Think he has a fair shout at being the most incisive passer of the last 15 years or so (in contrast to a tempo setter like Xavi).

Cheers, I enjoyed that. It's a great compilation of his direct and incisive passing, very goal-orientated. I liked the editing of the other one better though

Oh yeah I rate Totti' front end playmaking, I was more on about someone to spray the balls for the quick counter attacks from the edge of your own box type of thing.

I want to avoid hoofing it up from the back and don't want to make any long balls which Santamaria/Nasazzi can compete for. I know that is not my strength, that is why I want to make a quick transition on the ground to Totti, who has the CBs directly in front of him and can play Bale/Kaka in behind. If they decide to stay back near to their own box, then my attackers have very big space in attacking midfield and you can't give them that or they will be deadly.

I believe the biggest mistake these days with counter attacking sides is not being able to play out quickly from the back and just play long ball. The result is you lose the ball in most cases and you have less chances to attack. My back 6 is perfectly suited for quick transitions on the ground (quick dribble, fast pass on the ground) and idmanager has neither the personnel nor the tactics to play an extensive pressing game and stop my counters from evolving. He can only defend them with his backline and that may be too late, when you have Totti/Bale/Kaka/Boniek running at them and Alves has been caught up field.

 

[Gio]

Went for Don Alfredo. Persuaded by the counter-attacking strategy where the trio of supreme counter-attackers Boniek, Kaka and Bale are in their element. Particularly like the interplay between Totti and Kaka and, in dealing with that, Vasovic would have benefited from a touch more selling on his role in that area of the park. Lots to like about Idm as well - the attack is superb, Abidal matches up well to Bale. Unfortunate to be up against a couple of top tier full-backs I feel. Not totally sold on Alves/Matthews as a partnership - the latter was such a touchline hugger that I don't think there is any real space for Alves to attack.

 

[harms]

Kaka is rated much lower than Schiaffino or Liedholm here

Not true at all. Can’t remember any of those two making a significant impact in drafts (unless it were very specific one), recently at least — and even after Joga’s brilliant Liedholm videos he still remains unpicked. Kaka, on the other hand, features regularly and often heavily influences games (plus the sight of him toying with United defense is still relatively fresh in caf’s collective mind, somewhat like Redondo’s dribble)

 

[Jim Beam]

Edwards and Tardelli is a great combo behind Kaka. Not sure why is that even mentioned.

Went for Don. That said, Totti is a wanker.

 

[harms]

You all said I needed a traditional playmaker in there and I briefly said before that Totti is my playmaker.

You’ve missed my (and theirs, I think) point. I think that with someone who can start attacks from the deep with one pass (Koeman/Pirlo/Xabi/Guardiola) would make your front 4 much more dangerous. Totti will never drop to defense and start the counter with a long ball, and neither should he as it’s not his game at all.

P.s. It’s not a weakness but such a presence would’ve improved your team massively

 

[Don Alfredo]

Why Varane deserves to be here

I wanted to lay more into why Varane deserves to be on this stage. Everyone has seen him play and if you look at his skill-set, he is pretty much the complete package. Tall, fast, strong, no mug on the ball, great header, great at defending with his feet. He has the perfect abilities for the stopper-role and he is also really, really good in covering for his team mates. You have to be really good at that if you are playing next Carvajal/Ramos/Marcelo in an attacking team with a high line. He also never had a GOAT keeper behind him, Lloris and Navas have been good in patches but also quite error prone in certain moments.

He is still just 25 and that may seem too young, but he has played on a very high level since he came to Real at 18. This is 19-years-old Varane putting in a MotM performance vs Barca and peak Messi.


Varane has had a very similar club career like Santamaria, playing the same role for the same club and winning the same trophies (both 4 CL). They also played a major part in winning 3 of those 4 CL. Varane played every minute of the 2014, 2017 and 2018 final and only missed the 2016 final because of a severe injury, which caused him to drop out of the Euros.

Now let's have a look at their national team careers.

Varane played with 21 years as a starter next to Sakho in the 2014 World Cup and France conceded just 3 goals in 5 games. He was not faultless because Hummels was his man in the QF and he lost the duel, but he was still recognized with an entry on the 3-men-shortlist for best young player.

In 2018, he was the best defender at the World Cup and the most consistent player in a French side, which banked all their success on stability (and Mbappe up front). Besides the freak 4-3 against Argentina (in which he was not faultless I have to say), France conceded 0 goals from open play in 6 games. In 3 group stage games just 1 goal from a handball pen by Umtiti, against Uruguay and Belgium zero goals against and Croatia was the best side all tournament in creating goals from open play, yet they couldn't do it against Varane and the french defence. Perisic scored on a set piece and Lloris had a massive howler at the end, but the french wall kept tight.

It is right to say that Varane had absolute match winning influence on several of those close ties in the knockout stages. Uruguay vs France was a stand-off between two counter-attacking sides and he broke the deadlock with the crucial 1-0. His biggest achievement was him holding the defence together against the best attack in the tournament. Lukaku just destroyed Brazil's backline in the QF, yet Umtiti and Varane handled him masterfully. He was also sensational in key moments against Hazard, the best attacker at the world cup. When Hazard ran rings around Pavard, he was there to prevent serious damage.


This video shows some of his defending in the world cup, including 2 key actions against Hazard and some passes as well.

Let's look at what Santamaria did at the World Cup.

In 1962, he played for Spain and came last in a group with Brazil, Czechoslovakia and Mexico.

1954 was his only World Cup with Uruguay and he was in the Team of the Tournament. His side kept 2 clean sheets in the group stage against Czechoslovakia (not the good version with Masopust) and in a 7-0 waltzing over Scotland. In the knockout stage came the first big opponent, England with Matthews and Finney on the flanks scored 2 against Uruguay. Yet Uruguay prevailed and went on to face Hungary in the SF, only to lose 2-4 after extra time. The 3rd place playoff reads 3-1 for Austria, that adds up to 9 goals conceded in 3 knockout stage matches.

He did reach the team of the tournament and that will hold up over time, but is it worth that much when you look at the quality of Centerbacks in 1954 (and the 50s in general)?. The best sides at the world cup (Hungary and Germany) were incredibly top heavy and lacked quality at the back. Austria had some good center backs, but I would count Ocwirk as a central midfielder in a modern positional sense and I don't even know if there was one other CB in the 50s (besides Santamaria) who was as good as Diego Godin? Varane outshined Godin at the World Cup in my book and I will happily give Santamaria the title of best CB of the 50s, but who was the competition really? Look at those parallels to CB discussions of this decade

I didn't write this to bash Santamaria or to say he was not a great defender cause he was. I wrote this to convey why Varane deserves to be on this stage as much as Santamaria deserves to be here

 

[Don Alfredo]

Not true at all. Can’t remember any of those two making a significant impact in drafts (unless it were very specific one), recently at least — and even after Joga’s brilliant Liedholm videos he still remains unpicked. Kaka, on the other hand, features regularly and often heavily influences games (plus the sight of him toying with United defense is still relatively fresh in caf’s collective mind, somewhat like Redondo’s dribble)

Really? Maybe it is just me, I don't know. I think both are better than Kaka, they just didn't fit into my counter attacking philosophy.

Edwards and Tardelli is a great combo behind Kaka. Not sure why is that even mentioned.

Went for Don. That said, Totti is a wanker.

Cheers

You’ve missed my (and theirs, I think) point. I think that with someone who can start attacks from the deep with one pass (Koeman/Pirlo/Xabi/Guardiola) would make your front 4 much more dangerous. Totti will never drop to defense and start the counter with a long ball, and neither should he as it’s not his game at all.

P.s. It’s not a weakness but such a presence would’ve improved your team massively

The plan for reinforcements was to get Pirlo because I have collected all the ingredients for a great Pirlo side. Just needed the man himself and then I realized he is blocked because of that stupid rule

I think I would gain something, but 2 of those players are defensive passengers in my book and Koeman-Passarella would have been an awful fit. Xabi Alonso sounds like a solid fit in what he could accomplish in defending and transitioning, having excelled in Mou's counter attacking Real Madrid side. Yet I rate him several levels below both Edwards and Tardelli and I don't think he had the mobility to pull the role I wanted from my midfielders. Maybe I have watched too much of the older Xabi at Real/Bayern and forgot what he was like at Liverpool.

 

[idmanager]

Congratulations for the win @Don Alfredo
Good luck going ahead

 

[Don Alfredo]

Congratulations for the win @Don Alfredo
Good luck going ahead

Thanks mate You build a really good side, especially your attack

 

[Jim Beam]

Since he was in my plans I will put the obligatory video. We know that this kind of videos always look good, but this is truly great. Kaka doesn't need Pirlo behind him in terms that he needs someone to feed him. Pirlo was always there controlling the tempo, but Kaka was a different animal. Basically, provide him the ball on the counter and he goes into the wall of defenders.

Must say, I'm a bit annoyed about praising players who our grandfathers didn't watch and then putting prime Kaka somewhere in the second-tier bracket. If this is someone even from the 80's he would be much more regarded imo.

Il fenomeno in his own way...

 

[harms]

I think I would gain something, but 2 of those players are defensive passengers in my book and Koeman-Passarella would have been an awful fit.

Yeah, absolutely. Wasn't arguing for him but for someone with his (or comparable) quality on the ball

 

[Gio]

@Don Alfredo Nice piece on Varane. He's certainly getting there and, particularly over the last 12 months or so, delivering on that major potential he showed a few years ago. Thought he was pivotal in Real Madrid's Champions League run this year, particularly when the midfield were getting over-ran, which happened a few times en route to the final. I'd quite like him to continue in that vein a little longer before giving him full credit in an all-time draft, particularly extending the error-free form we've seen from him in the summer and for much of last season, which is really what makes the true quality centre-halves stand out. If he does though, we could be talking about one of the all-time greats. Nice partnership here with Passarella.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@Don Alfredo Nice piece on Varane. He's certainly getting there and, particularly over the last 12 months or so, delivering on that major potential he showed a few years ago. Thought he was pivotal in Real Madrid's Champions League run this year, particularly when the midfield were getting over-ran, which happened a few times en route to the final. I'd quite like him to continue in that vein a little longer before giving him full credit in an all-time draft, particularly extending the error-free form we've seen from him in the summer and for much of last season, which is really what makes the true quality centre-halves stand out. If he does though, we could be talking about one of the all-time greats. Nice partnership here with Passarella.

Thank you

I think both sides are fair, the ones who say he has played on high level since he was 18 and the ones who say he needs to do more to be part of the conversation. I was just really really impressed by his showing at the World Cup, where it was nearly impossible to score from open play against that French defence.

I think it is fair to say he is not an All Time Great stopper yet, but he is not a weakness either because of his achievements to date and his kinda unique skill set. There is no obvious fault in his playing style which an attacker could exploit, it all depends on him if he makes an error or not.