Roulette Draft - R1: P-Nut vs Tuppet

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

............................................. TEAM PNUT ............................................................................................ TEAM TUPPET .............................................



TEAM P-NUT

Style of play - Holland 1970s Total Football

The player roles from the above extract are quite easily followed.

De Rossi - Win Jansen
Neeskens - Neeskens
Scholes - van Hanegen
Rep - Rep
Neymar - Resenbrink
Cruyff - Del Piero

It was essential for me that all players were capable on the ball throughout my front 6. But that also extends to my defence were Cole and Suurbier will be tasked with joining attacks frequently.

Del Piero and Neymar in particular are players that could really shine in this set up.

Del Piero is usually criminally under rated in these drafts, but here he has a system perfect to bring out the best of his talents. Whether dropping deep or drifting wide he will constantly pull defenders around the pitch and open up space, either for midfield runners, or the two inside forwards.

Neymar is playing a similar role to the one he performs at PSG, he will start wide left, but has full license to drift to areas of the pitch he feels will gain most advantage.


TEAM TUPPET

Formation - 4-2-3-1
Defensive line - Normal
Playing style - Direct, with a focus on wing play and counter attack.

Midfield:
I have built a side to provide a solid platform to my best play (and IMO the best player in the draft) Zinedine Zidane. The setup is straightforwad - Zidane is the number 10 and main playmaker in the team. He is supported by a monstrous midfield of Robson & Keane. Robson would be more box 2 box while Keane play his usual defensive game, breaking up opposition play everywhere. As a trio I believe its one of the best in the draft full of technical ability as well graft.

Attack:
Up front Riva is the best number 9 to come from Italy. A very prolific and complete forward he was very good in air and at the same time quite fast. He would thrive on through balls from Zidane as well as crossed from my wingers. Dzajic is the best left winger in the draft and he'll be playing in a wing forward role, use his dribbling to go in or out of a defender. With his dribbling he tormented some of the great defenders like Vogts, Camacho & Burgnich. His crossing was great and he was able to go on and score for himself as well. Ghiggia would play as more conventional winger, creating chances for Riva using his crossing.

Defense:
In defense both Blanc & Mcgrath are complete modern defenders. Both great with ball at their feet while fantastic in the air as well. Bossis would take the left fullback role and be more adventurous going forward as Dzajic cuts in. Victor Andrade reprise his world cup winning partnership on the right side with Ghiggia. He'll be playing more conservatively in the game.

Finally Maspoli is a world cup winning fantastic keeper, one of the best to come from South America.

Why would we win -

• Zidane vs De Rossi & Dzajic vs Suurbier - I think these are the two biggest mismatches on the pitch. Dzajic turned and twisted far better defenders than Suurbier and Zidane at his peak would be hard to stop by De Rossi. Neeskens would help ofcourse but then they have to contend with Robson as well. I woul have added Riva vs Marqueze here as well but Costacurta was a class defender so that would help.
  
  
• Neymar well covered - I think Neymar is P-nut's best attacker. With one of the greatest marker in football Victor Andrade against him, Neymar's impact would be limited. Andrade did it in two big games marking out Zizinho in WC 50 final and doing the same against Czibor in WC 54 semi final before getting injured.
  
  
• Big characters in my team - In any all time draft there would be great big game players. But I feel I have accumulated quite a few players who were specialist in stepping up when it mattered and dragging their teams to success. Think of Zidane's brilliant performance in WC 98 final or his volley in CL final. Keane's historic performance against Juventus toward our CL victory, Robson against Barcelona or Mcgrath against Italy. Riva got an unfancied Cagliari to a historic serie a title. Dzajic got a poor Yugoslavia to Euro final and Ghiggia & Andrade were important parts of one of the all time greatest underdog victory in world cups.
  All of these players are capable of winning the game by themselves and I think they would give me an edge in the game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@P-Nut0712 @Tuppet All the best!

 

[P-Nut]

Alternative match tactics

good luck @Tuppet

 

[P-Nut]

I love the side Tuppet has built so not going to try and pull it apart too much as it just won't work.

Few points of things that have cropped up in the past when I've fielded similar players in similar roles are...

The 2 box to box CMs, without a designated DM. I paired the 2 greatest box to box CMs the premier league has seen in Vieira and Keane and was torn apart due to overlapping. If Keane and Vieira overlap then Robson and Keane will surely do the same?

Two sweepers in McGrath and Blanc, now normally I don't have a problem with this, but both players like to play on the front foot and travelling with the ball. Now it won't happen often, but at times both will end up quite high up the pitch (No CF to mark, playing out from the back etc) which is exactly what my tactic would want to happen for Neymar and Rep to exploit the gaps in behind.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @P-Nut0712

 

[Tuppet]

For the designated DM part, Roy Keane is my designated defensive midfielder. I have no idea how that could be considered a problem as the role of sitting for a more attacking player (Scholes) is one that Keane has played to the perfection in his and Manchester United peak. As for box to box moniker if you consider Gerard, Masopust, Neeskens, Matthaus etc as box to box midfielder than Keane is not one of them as he was better defensively than all of them and worse offensively. Keane is my defensive midfielder and he was an absolute monster when it comes to defending, I would take him over the likes of De Rossi or Makelele 10 out of 10 times.
Not to mention Robson himself was sitter for Hoddle in English squad, and is far more capable defensively than Scholes. I am not sure how the partnership of Robson-Keane could be considered anything but rock solid defensively.

 

[The Cat]

Robson was way way more of an attacking player than Keane at their peaks.

The best Keane was the one who controlled the game and always kept possession not the young Forest version.

I think it's a cracking pairing.

 

[Gio]

A few thoughts:

• Love the midfield contest - would be fascinating to see that play out
• Interesting use of Del Piero. Takes a bit of getting your head around, but I'm buying the balance and synergy in that front five
• As much as I rate the defensive acumen of Bossis and Blanc (and would pair them as half of an all-time French XI), Rep's goal-hunting directness there might pose them a problem
• Tuppet has constructed a fine platform for Zidane. I rate De Rossi though in fairness and amid the competitiveness and likely lack of space in that midfield zone, it'll be tough for anyone to make the difference.
• No issues on Tuppet's partnership of box-to-box midfielders - they both understand the game well enough to make the right decisions for the team there.
• Dzajic against Suurbier's Holland in 1976 is probably quite instructive as to how that head to head might pan out.

 

[MJJ]

Thought p-nut had a goos midfield till I saw Tuppets. fecking hell

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Alternative match tactics

good luck @Tuppet

Good to see it includes alternate players too.

 

[P-Nut]

Good to see it includes alternate players too.

It was more a joke based on all the lines

 

[P-Nut]

For the designated DM part, Roy Keane is my designated defensive midfielder. I have no idea how that could be considered a problem as the role of sitting for a more attacking player (Scholes) is one that Keane has played to the perfection in his and Manchester United peak. As for box to box moniker if you consider Gerard, Masopust, Neeskens, Matthaus etc as box to box midfielder than Keane is not one of them as he was better defensively than all of them and worse offensively. Keane is my defensive midfielder and he was an absolute monster when it comes to defending, I would take him over the likes of De Rossi or Makelele 10 out of 10 times.
Not to mention Robson himself was sitter for Hoddle in English squad, and is far more capable defensively than Scholes. I am not sure how the partnership of Robson-Keane could be considered anything but rock solid defensively.

Personally I agree, however it was something that was critiqued massively when I had a similar pairing hence me bringing it up.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I am not sure how the partnership of Robson-Keane could be considered anything but rock solid defensively.

Both are defensively astute, no question....but then having a dedicated DM like Desailly/Stiles/Rijkaard would be much more solid that that partnership imo. Depends on formation vs tactics. For me, against a modern 4-2-3-1 set ups, having a designated DM to take care of the #10 is really important and I don't think Keane is the best fit for that role. Robson to do the shuttling and perhaps a more passing DM would be more complimentary.

In a 4-4-2, I think your duo is great, in a 4-2-3-1 not that much so (and I'm not saying it's bad by any stretch)

 

[Gio]

Personally I agree, however it was something that was critiqued massively when I had a similar pairing hence me bringing it up.

Wasn't it the mad attacking formation that got critiqued as opposed to the partnership itself?

 

[Tuppet]

Both are defensively astute, no question....but then having a dedicated DM like Desailly/Stiles/Rijkaard would be much more solid that that partnership imo. Depends on formation vs tactics. For me, against a modern 4-2-3-1 set ups, having a designated DM to take care of the #10 is really important and I don't think Keane is the best fit for that role. Robson to do the shuttling and perhaps a more passing DM would be more complimentary.

In a 4-4-2, I think your duo is great, in a 4-2-3-1 not that much so (and I'm not saying it's bad by any stretch)

Why is Keane not the best fit for the role ? Who was taking care of opposition #10s in our 90s & early 2000s squads ?

I think I am just not getting the b2b moniker for Keane anymore. I had the same doubt in the previous draft final where you have a midfielder like Breitner who scored 20 goals in a season playing as B2B and providing a solid defensive presence. If thats the standard for a B2B midfielder than Keane doesn't come close. He never scored more than 6 goals a season for us, he was not a playmaker and if he is not even able to take the opposition #10 out of the game and play as defensive midfielder what good was he and why was he considered our most important player ?

 

[Physiocrat]

Why is Keane not the best fit for the role ? Who was taking care of opposition #10s in our 90s & early 2000s squads ?

I think I am just not getting the b2b moniker for Keane anymore. I had the same doubt in the previous draft final where you have a midfielder like Breitner who scored 20 goals in a season playing as B2B and providing a solid defensive presence. If thats the standard for a B2B midfielder than Keane doesn't come close. He never scored more than 6 goals a season for us, he was not a playmaker and if he is not even able to take the opposition #10 out of the game and play as defensive midfielder what good was he and why was he considered our most important player ?

I think the thought is that you want Keane to be able to make an impact going forward rather than just playing as a DM. He can do that role fine it's just whether you get peak Keane.

 

[P-Nut]

Wasn't it the mad attacking formation that got critiqued as opposed to the partnership itself?

Different game I think. I usually pair 2 box to box powerhouses together in most of my teams, before my latest trend of stupid formations took a hold of me.

 

[Tuppet]

I think the thought is that you want Keane to be able to make an impact going forward rather than just playing as a DM. He can do that role fine it's just whether you get peak Keane.

Peak Keane is not the one who would go forward and score goals and I surely haven't selected him for his impact going forward. He was good at ball but his peak performance is definitely in a defensive role. I don't need another defensive midfielder to free him, he is already free to do what he did best, that is to tackle opposition attackers. All I want to convey here is that Keane is not a B2B player in the sense of Gerard, Matthaus or Neeskens were, you would not find him running toward opposition penalty box often. He has discipline to hold the position and was primarily a defensive player. The only difference between him and somebody like Makelele was the Keane was a better player on ball, it doesn't take away anything from his defensive astuteness.

 

[Tuppet]

I am surprised at Keane being pegged as anything other than defensive midfielder tbh. Its not some player of yore we are talking about its Roy Keane arguably our best midfielder ever. Just look at any random performance highlight, like the one I found here against Arsenal, where Keane is at his peak. Try and count how many times Keane was in opposition box or anywhere close to it even. Also check who is picking up opposition attacking midfielder / second striker (Bergkamp here). See when commentators are saying "Keane is immense", whether they are talking about his defending, passing or attacking ? Keane is as good a defensive midfielder as any, and for my money he is as good as Desailly & Rijkaard when it purely comes to play a DM role.



Here's another one, same thing here playing almost as a deep lying playmaker -

 

[idmanager]

Dzajic against Suurbier's Holland in 1976 is probably quite instructive as to how that head to head might pan out.

Usually, Dzajic vs Suurbier in draft games tilts towards the former, but yea real life games help clear the air a lot.
Would like to hear or see what happened in the game. Not googling as I dont have any memory of seeing any highlights too as such, so will stay in spoiler mode till you lads can dig something up

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Why is Keane not the best fit for the role ? Who was taking care of opposition #10s in our 90s & early 2000s squads ?

I think I am just not getting the b2b moniker for Keane anymore. I had the same doubt in the previous draft final where you have a midfielder like Breitner who scored 20 goals in a season playing as B2B and providing a solid defensive presence. If thats the standard for a B2B midfielder than Keane doesn't come close. He never scored more than 6 goals a season for us, he was not a playmaker and if he is not even able to take the opposition #10 out of the game and play as defensive midfielder what good was he and why was he considered our most important player ?

I disagree that Keane wasn't a playmaker for us but I agree with the rest. I've posted this before when this topic has arisen, but Keane was more than capable of playing as a dedicated holding midfielder, turning in a dominant performance in the '96 FA Cup Final in that role.

Keane was playing a slightly different role than usual. Ferguson originally considered playing 3-5-2 to match Liverpool but after a meeting with Schmeichel, the back four, Keane and Cantona, he was dissuaded. Cantona then suggested sitting Keane in front of the back four in a 4-1-3-1-1. The result was a quite awesome performance. There has always been a simplistic perception of Keane as a licensed thug. He was reasonably decisive in the tackle, for sure, and on this day he harassed Liverpool to within an inch of their sanity, but an equal if not bigger strength was his forensic reading of games and higher state of concentration. For Keane football was like chess-boxing, placing equal, extreme demands on brain and brawn.

It was one of Keane’s finest performances, probably second only to his career-defining effort against Juventus three years later. He was aided by Ferguson’s decision to tuck Beckham and Giggs inside when United didn’t have the ball, and particularly by the diligence of his trusted lieutenant Butt, but really this was all about Keane. He got Fowler, McManaman, Collymore and Redknapp in an armlock.

“Neutrals said the 1996 Cup final was a bore,” sniffed Keane in his first autobiography. “Not if you were playing. It was grim all right, demanding every ounce of concentration, every last grasp of breath. My job was to anchor midfield, to deny Liverpool time and space, to break up their rhythm, basically to destroy any notions they might have had about passing us to defeat. There’s a lot of ground to cover at Wembley, but I covered it, got my tackles in, delivered the message: this is going to be hard work, boys, fecking hard work. Along with Nicky Butt I won the midfield battle. Nicky was a tough lad and an ideal partner for this kind of operation.”

...It was the completion of Cantona’s comeback and after the game Ferguson only wanted to talk about one man. Keane. When asked to praise Cantona, he did and then changed the conversation. “I thought Roy Keane was the best man on the park. Absolutely magnificent.” This was the day when the professional love-in between Keane and Ferguson went to another level. Keane returned the compliment in his autobiography. “The double of 1995-96 vindicated the manager. He had won something with ‘kids’.”

And a compilation of said performance:

Spoiler: Keane vs Liverpool 1996

In general there's a tendency here to lump players into either the B2B or holding category and abandon any attempt at finding gradations in between. Rijkaard is constantly brought up as the ideal upgrade for any midfield perceived as lacking a holding player (and with good reason of course), but for Milan at least I don't personally view his general role as being more defensive/positionally restricted than Keane's for Utd. Yet one is a get out of jail free card against pretty much any elite playmaker other than Maradona, whereas Keane ends up in a draft match no man's land quite often against any good attacking midfielder.

Some Rijkaard match compilations, where you can see that he actually attacked quite often rather than playing a strict anchor role:

Spoiler: vs Fiorentina

Spoiler: vs Marseille

 

[Gio]

Aye agree with your points on both Keane and Rijkaard @Pat_Mustard.

 

[Theon]

Great post @Pat_Mustard

Agree with this in particular:

In general there's a tendency here to lump players into either the B2B or holding category and abandon any attempt at finding gradations in between.

Also agree that Keane was the playmaker for United. I think that’s quite clear actually, he dominated the build up (nothing too fancy, just consistently accurate passes which were often forward/progressive and collectively provided the foundation for most of our attacks). His passing between the lines was outstanding, he’d just fizz it low and sharp into a Yorke or Teddy dropping deep and cut out half the opposing team.

 

[Jim Beam]

Really harsh on P-Nut, but that Tuppet team is just brilliant. Keane, Robson, Zidane, Dzajic, Riva... Tbh, I think my team would get even less votes.

 

[P-Nut]

Really harsh on P-Nut, but that Tuppet team is just brilliant. Keane, Robson, Zidane, Dzajic, Riva... Tbh, I think my team would get even less votes.

Yeah I said it in the PL draft thread that Tuppets was the one team I didn't want to draw and knew I'd lost the second I had drawn him.