Royal Marine found guilty of Afghanistan murder

[Tommy]

It's a really tricky one. If his mental health is to be taken into consideration, then why not have him serve the manslaughter sentence in a hospital prison? If he's mentally unhinged enough to execute someone in a pressured situation, then who's to say he won't be quicker to snap next time?

FWIW, I can see the arguments for both murder & manslaughter, but he can't just be let out... Disgusting.

After sending his mate onto national daytime TV to suggest we should be buying him a drink when he comes out and the footage of people outside the court cheering, surely not even you can still believe this? He's being heralded as a fecking hero. It isn't about him being guilty or innocent to them, because they don't believe there was even a case to answer for to begin with.

Spot on. After all, to them he's just an unfortunate soldier who did the world a favour by dispatching of some evil brown guy.

 

[Coxy]

This is an incredibly complex issue to resolve. Looking at the facts, he has broken the law and was fully aware of it at the time. But I find it very difficult to judge him as a human being having never been in such a situation or under such duress as they obviously were for an extended period of time.

Those of us who haven't been in that position will never understand how what happened happened, while those who have been will naturally be biased in his favour. Without labelling his crime using more conventional terminology like murder or manslaughter, I reckon a sentence which fits the seriousness of his wrongdoing, without costing him the rest of his life is probably the right decision.

This is how I feel. Hearing the audio - the guy looks guilty (in the sense that he acknowledges what he did straight away and asks his mates not to tell anyone)

But I've never been in that situation with the realities so who I am to judge. A bit hypocritical to expect others to stick to geneva convention if we don't either though...

 

[DOTA]

I'm still very sceptical about the changing of his conviction. I do feel it looks more based on sentiment than evidence.

What are the two sides to this?

IIRC, that he was looking out for the younger members of the team who were threatening to shoot the guy. That by killing him the team were able to move on away from danger, rather than waiting in a dangerous place for medics to show up who themselves would be in danger. That the level of stress he was under resulted in diminished responsibility.

It's a really tricky one. If his mental health is to be taken into consideration, then why not have him serve the manslaughter sentence in a hospital prison? If he's mentally unhinged enough to execute someone in a pressured situation, then who's to say he won't be quicker to snap next time.

His mental illness was considered to be temporary so there would be no need to have him in hospital.

FWIW, I can see the arguments for both murder & manslaughter, but he can't just be let out... Disgusting.

He has already served three years. That's why he's facing release.

 

[Red Diva]

'Keyboard warriors' is unfair and cheap - we can't all be in the armed forces.

Do you think so? Al has been diagnosed with a mental disorder that meant his ability to "form a rational judgment" was "substantially impaired", yet the majority on here (who have never been anywhere near the front line) all know better and he is a murderer.

It's all very well to sit in your armchairs and pass judgement, we all know what should have been done, the reality is that it is hell on the frontline and on his sixth tour Al cracked, due to circumstances beyond his control. The verdict is not giving the Armed Forces carte blanche to shoot anyone at will, but saying that in this one particular case there were exceptional stressors, which made the murder conviction incorrect.

 

[Red Diva]

Narrowing it to two is probably impossible. However many you end up with, one of them (and probably the most vocal) would absolutely justify anything done by a British soldier.

Lol, that is a ridiculous statement.

 

[oates]

The odd thing is that on the one hand you do have people assuming all sorts of things based on their judgement of the more extreme rabid 'patriotic' supporters and awarding their own diametrically opposed extreme 'pc opinions' whilst completely ignoring any expert evidence given during the re-trial or maybe having any experience in any aspect being totally unable to believe that the case and the support are a bit more nuanced.

 

[Dobba]

Lol, that is a ridiculous statement.

I look forward to you justifying him being heralded as a hero who we should buy a drink for, so I can take this as a compliment.

 

[oates]

I look forward to you justifying him being heralded as a hero who we should buy a drink for, so I can take this as a compliment.

I thought it was you who worded him being heralded as a hero. Please put me straight if that's not the case.

 

[Dobba]

I thought it was you who worded him being heralded as a hero. Please put me straight if that's not the case.

I'll happily put you straight. In my opinion, the cnut is as far from a hero as it gets.

 

[oates]

I'll happily put you straight. In my opinion, the cnut is as far from a hero as it gets.

But you seem to be completely unable to admit that it was you who mentioned the 'hero' word and that your latest challenge to @Red Diva is to an entirely different post.

S'hamazin. Rabid almost.

 

[broccoli]

No matter how much stress he had he still shot an harmless captive cold blank. He should rot in jail, otherwise 'we' are no better than them.

With that said, if I saw a friend killed and his body parts hung in a tree I'd probably do the same.

 

[Dobba]

But you seem to be completely unable to admit that it was you who mentioned the 'hero' word and that your latest challenge to @Red Diva is to an entirely different post.

S'hamazin. Rabid almost.

I'm sorry, but what on earth are you talking about? I'm referring to the reams of comments from the last 2+ years calling him a hero, with the crescendo being the cheering crowds outside the court today and inevitable newspaper front pages tomorrow. If I'm genuinely the first person you've seen use the word hero while discussing this case, then I really, really envy you because it has boiled my blood repeatedly.

I replied to that comment because I want to put what they consider a 'ridiculous statement' into context, so I know how much of a compliment it actually is.

 

[oates]

After sending his mate onto national daytime TV to suggest we should be buying him a drink when he comes out and the footage of people outside the court cheering, surely not even you can still believe this? He's being heralded as a fecking hero. It isn't about him being guilty or innocent to them, because they don't believe there was even a case to answer for to begin with.

Dobba, it was you who claimed he was being treated as a hero.

@Red Diva never even mentioned the word and was having a back and forth with @SteveJ upon the phrase 'Keyboard Warrior'.

Why then should she need to justify your own personal claims of the situation how you see it and not she?

I look forward to you justifying him being heralded as a hero who we should buy a drink for, so I can take this as a compliment.

 

[Dobba]

Dobba, it was you who claimed he was being treated as a hero.

@Red Diva never even mentioned the word and was having a back and forth with @SteveJ upon the phrase 'Keyboard Warrior'.

Why then should she need to justify your own personal claims of the situation how you see it and not she?

I genuinely don't know what to say to you. You're making absolutely no sense at all.

 

[oates]

I genuinely don't know what to say to you. You're making absolutely no sense at all.

Look pal, you are the one who quoted a completely unrelated post from @Red Diva demanding she justify Al Blackman being labelled a hero when she did not but you in fact have interpreted his supporters to be which is hardly the whole truth but by all means don't try too hard to work out your own mistake.

 

[Red Diva]

I look forward to you justifying him being heralded as a hero who we should buy a drink for, so I can take this as a compliment.

Where have I called him a hero or advocated buying him a drink? This comment has absolutely nothing to do with me laughing at your statement

would absolutely justify anything done by a British soldier

 

[oates]

Where have I called him a hero or advocated buying him a drink? This comment has absolutely nothing to do with me laughing at your statement

I thought it was you who worded him being heralded as a hero. Please put me straight if that's not the case.

Don't Red Diva, he don't get it.

 

[DOTA]

Look pal, you are the one who quoted a completely unrelated post from @Red Diva demanding she justify Al Blackman being labelled a hero when she did not but you in fact have interpreted his supporters to be which is hardly the whole truth but by all means don't try too hard to work out your own mistake.

Her knowledgeable insights in to the views of marines on this topic have been a useful addition to this thread, I think, but here she ridiculed a statement that 'probably the most vocal' view was one that would justify anything being done by a British soldier. This is after already stating the views in support of the solider in question she mainly hears are from marine groups, which quite obviously are not indicative of the 'most vocal view', given the increased nuance she herself described.

 

[oates]

Her knowledgeable insights in to the views of marines on this topic have been a useful addition to this thread, I think, but here she ridiculed a statement that 'probably the most vocal' view was one that would justify anything being done by a British soldier. This is after already stating the views in support of the solider in question she mainly hears are from marine groups, which quite obviously are not indicative of the 'most vocal view', given the increased nuance she herself described.

Well she still didn't call him a hero which as far as I have seen is only being claimed by detractors such as @Dobba as how his supporters would see him.

At the end of the day, the most vocal - ie. The loudest isn't always the majority but I think you know this.

Of course the media like to put on a show with extreme attitudes for the sake of controversial argument eh?

 

[Dobba]

Where have I called him a hero or advocated buying him a drink? This comment has absolutely nothing to do with me laughing at your statement

I think you were too busy telling people who had an negative opinion on Marine A that they were keyboard warriors because they hadn't served. I also note that you didn't answer my question on whether you still believed 'very few' of his supporters think he's innocent.

Well she still didn't call him a hero which as far as I have seen is only being claimed by detractors such as @Dobba as how his supporters would see him.

In which case you have a wonderfully sheltered life, of which I am sincerely jealous.

 

[oates]

I think you were too busy telling people who had an negative opinion on Marine A that they were keyboard warriors because they hadn't served. I also note that you didn't answer my question on whether you still believed 'very few' of his supporters think he's innocent.

I see you haven't answered Red Diva's question but hey, gotta have them double standards.

 

[DOTA]

Well she still didn't call him a hero which as far as I have seen is only being claimed by detractors such as @Dobba as how his supporters would see him.

I'm afraid I've seen him called a hero many times, by supporters.

At the end of the day, the most vocal - ie. The loudest isn't always the majority but I think you know this.

Well, no, the majority opinion is almost certainly 'meh' but that's not really relevant.

Of course the media like to put on a show with extreme attitudes for the sake of controversial argument eh?

They do but that's partially because 'I don't know, he probably shouldn't have done that' versus 'I don't know but I guess he was under a lot of stress' doesn't make for a healthy debate.

 

[SteveJ]

Do you think so? Al has been diagnosed with a mental disorder that meant his ability to "form a rational judgment" was "substantially impaired", yet the majority on here (who have never been anywhere near the front line) all know better and he is a murderer.

It's all very well to sit in your armchairs and pass judgement, we all know what should have been done, the reality is that it is hell on the frontline and on his sixth tour Al cracked, due to circumstances beyond his control. The verdict is not giving the Armed Forces carte blanche to shoot anyone at will, but saying that in this one particular case there were exceptional stressors, which made the murder conviction incorrect.

Fine, but your opinions on this matter are - understandably - biased.

 

[Dobba]

I see you haven't answered Red Diva's question but hey, gotta have them double standards.

Where exactly did I say they'd used it? Something which you haven't quoted. I also find it odd that you managed to work out that I was referring to someone else from the 'buy him a drink' half of that sentence, but didn't manage it with the bit you keep on quoting.

 

[oates]

I'm afraid I've seen him called a hero many times, by supporters.

Possibly I read the wrong papers or watch the wrong channels.

They do but that's partially because 'I don't know, he probably shouldn't have done that' versus 'I don't know but I guess he was under a lot of stress' doesn't make for a healthy debate.

In the context of providing justice when manslaughter does not equal murder the justice is an entirely 'Healthy Debate'.

 

[Dobba]

Possibly I read the wrong papers or watch the wrong channels.

I'll take that as an apology. Cheers.

 

[oates]

Where exactly did I say they'd used it? Something which you haven't quoted. I also find it odd that you managed to work out that I was referring to someone else from the 'buy him a drink' half of that sentence, but didn't manage it with the bit you keep on quoting.

Odd isn't it. You still can't see that it was entirely unrelated to anything she said. Very odd but I'll get over it.

 

[DOTA]

Possibly I read the wrong papers or watch the wrong channels.

I prefer the sound of yours. Though I suspect it's for the most part consuming less social media that's spared you on this one.

 

[oates]

I'll take that as an apology. Cheers.

And yet you still think that is justification for demanding, nay stamping your little foot, with Red Diva who never called him a 'hero'.

So it's not an apology but you should take more water with it.

 

[oates]

I prefer the sound of yours. Though I suspect it's for the most part consuming less social media that's spared you on this one.

Again, making with the assumptions DoB.

 

[oates]

I can see why people make the mistake of claiming they see the most vocal arguments when the press or social media is the one they prefer to quote.

 

[DOTA]

I can see why people make the mistake of claiming they see the most vocal arguments when the press or social media is the one they prefer to quote.

Not that I have made such a claim, myself, but may I ask how we are to judge what constitutes the 'most vocal arguments', in your view?

 

[Dobba]

Not that I have made such a claim, myself, but may I ask how we are to judge the 'most vocal arguments', in your view?

You beat me to it. I'm looking forward to this.

 

[oates]

Not that I have made such a claim, myself, but may I ask how we are to judge what constitutes the 'most vocal arguments', in your view?

All I'm saying is that one idiot demanding that one person justifies what another is saying despite it not being what that one person is saying is idiotic to the nth degree .

 

[oates]

You beat me to it. I'm looking forward to this.

Read it and weep doughboy.

 

[DOTA]

All I'm saying is that one idiot demanding that one person justifies what another is saying despite it not being what that one person is not saying is idiotic to the nth degree .

I thought you were saying something about how people make the mistake of claiming they see the most vocal arguments when the press or social media is the one they prefer to quote.

 

[oates]

I thought you were saying something about how people make the mistake of claiming they see the most vocal arguments when the press or social media is the one they prefer to quote.

Yeah, I'm saying that one idiot reads something that someone has said and then tries to make another person who does not subscribe to that view, has not said it and possibly cannot be found saying it on any of the social media she uses or reads, justify what the idiot has read in the first place. is that enough of a connection social media wise?

 

[Dobba]

All I'm saying is that one idiot demanding that one person justifies what another is saying despite it not being what that one person is saying is idiotic to the nth degree .

What has this got to do with the question they asked? Something about goose and gander springs to mind given the last hour or so.

Yeah, I'm saying that one idiot reads something that someone has said and then tries to make another person who does not subscribe to that view, has not said it and possibly cannot be found saying it on any of the social media she uses or reads, justify what the idiot has read in the first place. is that enough of a connection social media wise?

All I'm saying is that one idiot demanding that one person justifies what another is saying despite it not being what that one person is not saying is idiotic to the nth degree .

So you're against people being grouped together despite not saying the thing you're accusing them of. So as I was grouped into 'keyboard warriors' by said person earlier in this thread (on account of not serving) 'who all know better and he is a murderer' can you show me the post where I call Blackman a murderer please?

 

[oates]

What has this got to do with the question they asked? Something about goose and gander springs to mind given the last hour or so.

Dear oh dear, can you really be that dense?

 

[El General 1994]

So...7 years eh?