Royal Marine found guilty of Afghanistan murder

[Smores]

There's a middle ground, which is the decision the court reached.

Soldiers cannot go around executing people freely, but in the heat of battle when an enemy combatant who five minutes earlier was trying to kill you presents themselves, you can't be expected to think like a normal civilian.

Well you can, isn't that exactly what the Geneva convention is for?

This whole debate reeks of 'yeah he's a murderer but he's our murderer'. I'm sure the daily mail will be forgiving of any actions commited by foreign forces because of stressors won't they. The tribal nature of this is sickening.

I know several in the forces and id only class one of them as reasonably adjusted, the rest have always been idiots. I sympathise that the forces are using these lads without much thought as to their mental health but it doesn't then absolve them of blame, which is what the 'patriotic' papers are trying to do.

 

[Kaos]

I found it unnerving seeing the pics of the crowd of marines cheering outside the courtroom after the verdict. It was like they had won the cup, people are strange.

Like a poster here already said, it's like the propaganda writes itself.

With the least offense intended, I don't think the armed forces types are exactly the brightest sparks.

 

[facund]

I wonder what those who say our troops in combat must act like regular citizens would think if we had an invading army on our doorstep?

An entirely different situation. Defending the very existence of your family and country is bound to effect ones mentality ("desperate ground" in the words of Sun Tzu). Fighting in foreign lands is not relevant for comparison in this example.

I've said it before but if we are going to send troops to war zones thousands of miles from home we have to expect them to act like they're in a war zone. If we don't like it then bring them back.

Even you must draw the line somewhere? Rape and pillaging are historical realities of war but I imagine you don't condone them. Soldiers should follow the protocols of their training and the guidelines laid out for them. Any divergence from that should be rightfully investigated. Scrutiny acts as a restraining force and the removal of it would lead to increasingly appalling acts.

I'm arguing more about the sentiment you express than the practicalities of this incident.

 

[NinjaFletch]

To be expected.

I wonder what those who say our troops in combat must act like regular citizens would think if we had an invading army on our doorstep? Would they be prepared to accept a few blurred lines between right and wrong? Of course they would.

Thankfully it's not something we are likely to ever have to face but for those actually on the front lines that's pretty much daily life for them, and we attempt to judge them based on what we think from our safe suburban homes.

I've said it before but if we are going to send troops to war zones thousands of miles from home we have to expect them to act like they're in a war zone. If we don't like it then bring them back.

Similarly I wonder how people who would defend his actions would react if, say, an Afghani insurgent executed a British soldier? We can all play 'what aboutism', but I find it very difficult to accept the argument that the chest thumping patriotism that has accompanied these wars and focused on the superiority of western culture over all else should be thrown away simply because the armed forces are involved.

If what we consider right is so easily discarded in the sake of 'winning' then haven't we already lost?

 

[11101]

An entirely different situation. Defending the very existence of your family and country is bound to effect ones mentality ("desperate ground" in the words of Sun Tzu). Fighting in foreign lands is not relevant for comparison in this example.

For you and I sitting at our desks perhaps. For a guy stationed in an isolated forward camp on the front lines it's not such a different situation at all.

As to where i draw the line, there is always a pretty clear black and white and then some grey in between. In war I believe the grey should always fall on the side of the soldiers who are risking their lives by going there.

 

[Bubz27]

To be expected.

I wonder what those who say our troops in combat must act like regular citizens would think if we had an invading army on our doorstep? Would they be prepared to accept a few blurred lines between right and wrong? Of course they would.

Thankfully it's not something we are likely to ever have to face but for those actually on the front lines that's pretty much daily life for them, and we attempt to judge them based on what we think from our safe lives miles from harm.

I've said it before but if we are going to send troops to war zones thousands of miles from home we have to expect them to act like they're in a war zone. If we don't like it then bring them back.

Firstly no one expects them to act like regular citizens.

And no, it's different. In this scenario we're the invading army. Invading for differing reasons, but still invading. And they're not acting like regular citizens. So from your scenario, they're acting exactly how you're suggesting we would act.

The difference lies in how we are acting and why we are there. Why are we there? To bring peace? Then surely we should be advocates of that? Of course fight the bad guys, but this whole thread isn't about us fighting bad guys. I'm talking about this scenario and others like it, should they occur.

 

[facund]

For you and I sitting at our desks perhaps. For a guy stationed in an isolated forward camp on the front lines it's not such a different situation at all.

Defending your own life in a situation you can be extracted from is markedly different from having to defend the lives of you wife, children and community with no option of retreat and no path of escape. I'm not sure how that can be argued but you are entitled to your opinion.

As to where i draw the line, there is always a pretty clear black and white and then some grey in between. In war I believe the grey should always fall on the side of the soldiers who are risking their lives by going there.

I largely agree but feel the scrutiny you suggest isn't necessary plays an important role in maintaining the conduct at an acceptable level. We should have high expectations and should be disappointed (although not necessarily punitive) when they are not met. Checks and balances if you will.

 

[Red Diva]

An entirely different situation. Defending the very existence of your family and country is bound to effect ones mentality ("desperate ground" in the words of Sun Tzu). Fighting in foreign lands is not relevant for comparison in this example.

This is not true at all. The lads they are fighting with are their family whilst on the front line. They have a tremendous bond, we can never understand, but this is why there are so many heroic deeds when oppos are in danger.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Like a poster here already said, it's like the propaganda writes itself.

With the least offense intended, I don't think the armed forces types are exactly the brightest sparks.

Yep, exactly the sort of self-made western propaganda that stokes the fires of anti-western sentiment in the middle east and south asia.

 

[Sassy Colin]

When the enemy is way over there, or standing in front of you with a gun pointing at your head, or your colleague's head then it's a completely different situation to when he his cowering in front of you, wounded and terrified for his life. You should be able to switch from "this is my enemy" to "this is a human being".

Of course, it's easy for us to say, we've never been in the heat of battle.

 

[facund]

This is not true at all. The lads they are fighting with are their family whilst on the front line. They have a tremendous bond, we can never understand, but this is why there are so many heroic deeds when oppos are in danger.

Your colleagues vs your entire existence and culture.
I won't argue against the strong bond and courageous acts but it will never match the desperation inspired when having to defend everything you hold dear and identify with.

 

[Randall Flagg]

He's saying he's not a person. You know, like the nazi's did. And it's not the first time he's used that kind of language.

its really not uncommon for somebody to use the word scum when describing what they deem a terrorist

If I look at just that post. That is all I see

 

[NinjaFletch]

I think we can all accept that there should be some form of recognition of diminished culpability (whether or not this case should qualify for it or not is a different matter) and that a war is a stressful scenario that can cause people to make bad decisions and cause mental health issues here.

But this isn't a good news story, this is a story about a man who – even after recent events killed someone in cold blood – whose murder sentence has been reduced to manslaughter on the grounds of 'diminished responsibility' a man who, for all intents and purposes, was found by the court to have committed the actions of a murderer, but absolved of criminal responsibility for it because of his mental health, and a man who is inexplicably treated as a hero by the Daily Mail, the armed forces and god knows who else for the fact that he executed a Taliban fighter and got away with it.

I'm going to copy the Mail's editorial. It genuinely makes me skin crawl:

The lioness who simply said, 'I can’t wait to cook for him again': ROBERT HARDMAN on Claire Blackman's fight to see her husband freed from prison
By ROBERT HARDMAN FOR THE DAILY MAIL

The decision took a second or two to sink in. Their years of armed combat had left some of the gents in this crowd a little hard of hearing. And for all his undoubted legal brilliance, the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, was not entirely audible as he rattled his way through his historic announcement.

Up in the public gallery, though, Royal Marine mum Jayne Quinn quickly did the sums. ‘He’s out!’ she cried. Whereupon Court Number Four of the Royal Courts of Justice descended into happy bedlam. Applause in the gallery spread to the courtroom below.

One or two flinty old soldiers appeared to be in tears. People queued up to hug the indefatigable Claire Blackman, the wife who never gave up and who will now soon be reunited with a husband no longer branded a murderer.

Claire Blackman (centre), wife of jailed former British soldier Alexander Blackman, Marine A, reacts outside the The Royal Courts of Justice in London on March 28, 2017

Even at this Hallelujah moment, she was a good deal more composed than some of those around her. Outside in the Strand, cabs and lorries slowed and honked their horns as news spread on the radio.

Over the road at The George, the bar staff called for reinforcements. Sergeant Alexander Blackman of the Royal Marines was finally going to be freed, and that meant a hefty celebration.

There was still no diluting the anger felt across the Forces that a brave man, whose self-control had briefly snapped in the most appalling circumstances, was treated like the basest criminal lowlife. But everyone was certainly going to enjoy the moment.

Inside the courtroom, a man in a Royal Marines regimental tie stood to attention, ramrod-straight, and proclaimed: ‘Three cheers for Claire and the team. Hip hip…’

Former Marine Alan Logan from North Wales came up to me and pressed a smart Royal Marines scarf in to my hands – a symbolic ‘thank you’ to the Daily Mail readers whose generosity had brought about this historic moment.

The party atmosphere was, of course, completely out of order in this judicial holy of holies. The blazered platoons had behaved impeccably throughout this case – until now.

The court usher, who has seen them queuing up at every stage, simply rolled her eyes.

Not so the usher from a neighbouring court, who suddenly burst in demanding quiet. ‘This is a court building!’ she shouted.

‘There are other proceedings going on. Please, if you want to do any more celebrating, go outside.’

And so they did, leaving one slightly bemused figure taking it all in. In a crisp blue shirt, Sgt Blackman, 42, was still sitting in his Wiltshire prison – where he must remain for a few more days – hooked up to the court by video link. Before switching him off, a clerk offered to bring his wife over to the camera.

‘Are you all right darling?’ asked Claire, adding a note of caution: ‘The whole court can hear you, so we will speak very soon. Love you lots.’ Back came a manly ‘Love you’ before Sgt Blackman disappeared.

The steps of the High Court were impassable as Claire, 45, emerged alongside her victorious legal team. The gothic entrance was draped with ‘Justice for Marine A’ flags. Several lifesize cardboard cut-outs of the man himself in combat uniform stood among the ranks of medal-clanking veterans, mostly ex-Royal Marines but with a healthy smattering of other units, too.

Several maroon berets from arch-rivals the Parachute Regiment illustrated the strength of feeling across the Armed Forces. Someone cracked open a bottle of champagne. A hip flask the size of a bedpan did the rounds.

Sgt Blackman’s barrister, Jonathan Goldberg QC, began by saluting the ‘lioness’ who had ‘kept the flame alive’ from the day her husband went down for murder at that bungled court martial in 2013.

Step forward, the true heroine of the day. ‘Your man’s coming home, Claire!’ shouted a man in the crowd, prompting more cheers. A bagpiper struck up and was promptly struck down again so that everyone could hear her speak.

 

[Dobba]

But, remember, nobody is treating him like a hero.

 

[oates]

But, remember, nobody is treating him like a hero.

But remember, not everyone is. Why can't you get this?

Why even bother, your comment is plainly wumming.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I read through about half of that DM article and my theory is that not a single one of those things he says happened, in the courtroom, outside, the pub across the road and the honking of horns (seriously?) actually happened. It is almost a complete work of fiction.

I did see the BBC report & there were old men outside shouting like they'd won the Cup, as I mentioned earlier, and I am sure there was a great deal of relief in the courtroom, but just look at the list of things he claims happened, it's pure fantasy.

 

[Dobba]

During sentencing the judges said that "this was a deliberate killing of a wounded man" and that Blackman "still retained a substantial responsibility" for the death.

South Dorset MP Richard Drax has worked tirelessly for justice for the former marine. He has welcomed the news that Blackman will be returning home, describing him as a hero.

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2017-03-28/wife-of-marine-a-thanks-wonderful-mp-richard-drax/

I have no doubt he is a hero - a brave and decent man and a hero who served our country.

Dorset MP Richard Drax, who has long campaigned for Mr. Blackman, said: "Justice has been seen to be done. My message to those out there who serve in such a way is; you will not be forgotten. And if you are, we will fight for you, fight for justice, to ensure you can get home as quickly as you can to your loved ones."

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

its really not uncommon for somebody to use the word scum when describing what they deem a terrorist

If I look at just that post. That is all I see

It's not the part where he calls him scum, rather it's the bit where he dismisses his humanity that matters in the interpretation.

It's easier to kill another group of people when you don't view them as human beings. The Nazis facilitated the holocaust by comparing European Jews to rats among other things in the propaganda film The Eternal Jew. It helped average Germans to not care about the fate of their neighbours as they were sent by the trainload to their doom.

 

[Red Diva]

I read through about half of that DM article and my theory is that not a single one of those things he says happened, in the courtroom, outside, the pub across the road and the honking of horns (seriously?) actually happened. It is almost a complete work of fiction.

I did see the BBC report & there were old men outside shouting like they'd won the Cup, as I mentioned earlier, and I am sure there was a great deal of relief in the courtroom, but just look at the list of things he claims happened, it's pure fantasy.

The honking of horns is true, it's happened every time they've attended court or had the annual "show of support".

 

[Muffled funk]

 

[Fearless]

It's not the part where he calls him scum, rather it's the bit where he dismisses his humanity that matters in the interpretation.

It's easier to kill another group of people when you don't view them as human beings. The Nazis facilitated the holocaust by comparing European Jews to rats among other things in the propaganda film The Eternal Jew. It helped average Germans to not care about the fate of their neighbours as they were sent by the trainload to their doom.

I'm getting a lot of flack here.

To put it simply, I consider all Taliban fighter's scum - because of their crazed ideology and sickening tactics. Not just to our troops, but to the innocent Afghan's that they oppress.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'm getting a lot of flack here.

To put it simply, I consider all Taliban fighter's scum - because of their crazed ideology and sickening tactics. Not just to our troops, but to the innocent Afghan's that they oppress.

I hope that clears things up.

Fair enough. As long as you can acknowledge that, despite the atrocities they may commit, they are men, like you or me.

 

[Fearless]

Fair enough. As long as you can acknowledge that, despite the atrocities they may commit, they are men, like you or me.

Here's where we differ. I don't consider them 'men' at all. They forfeited their humanity at the expense of the innocent, just like a serial child rapist.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Here's where we differ. I don't consider them 'men' at all. They forfeited their humanity at the expense of the innocent, just like a serial child rapist.

Then there is something worryingly wrong with you and you are equally, if not more, dangerous as any Taliban fighter or violent criminal.

 

[Fearless]

Then there is something worryingly wrong with you and you are equally, if not more, dangerous as any Taliban fighter or violent criminal.

That's a bizarre accusation - please explain how you came to such a conclusion.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

That's a bizarre accusation - please explain how you came to such a conclusion.

I'll try. Anyone that dehumanizes a group is dangerous because when you diminish or take away their human qualities it is easier to commit atrocities against that group.

 

[Fearless]

I'll try. Anyone that dehumanizes a group is dangerous because when you diminish or take away their human qualities it is easier to commit atrocities against that group.

What 'human' qualities do you speak of?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

What 'human' qualities do you speak of?

Biological qualities and no comparison to other beings (i.e. vermin, insects, etc.) or casual dismissal of their status as humans can change this.

Their actions may seem uncivilized to an observer but to categorize any group of people as non-human is dangerous and proven as such throughout history.

 

[Fearless]

Biological qualities and no comparison to other beings (i.e. vermin, insects, etc.) or casual dismissal of their status as humans can change this.

Their actions may seem uncivilized to an observer but to categorize any group of people as non-human is dangerous and proven as such throughout history.

Interesting.

 

[Silva]

It's one of the main things holocaust survivors tried, and continue to impart to following generations. When Nazi propaganda dehumanised jews, gays, disabled, gypsies, minorities and so on, it made it possible to wholesale slaughter people.

 

[berbatrick]

@Dwazza

For a contemporary example:

(check the parent comment too)

 

[Chorley1974]

But, remember, nobody is treating him like a hero.

who is?

 

[Dobba]

who is?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/roy...fghanistan-murder.379296/page-8#post-20652256

 

[Silva]

@Dwazza

For a contemporary example:

(check the parent comment too)

That thread topped my yearly dose of feck this planet.

 

[Chorley1974]

When the enemy is way over there, or standing in front of you with a gun pointing at your head, or your colleague's head then it's a completely different situation to when he his cowering in front of you, wounded and terrified for his life. You should be able to switch from "this is my enemy" to "this is a human being".

Of course, it's easy for us to say, we've never been in the heat of battle.

Varying shades of heat of battle. Going through a short term battle engagement is totally different to long term insane pressure due to severe sleep deprivation, mental breakdown due to extreme stress, extreme ongoing fear, lack of food and water, and medical care, and PTSD in a war zone.
My brother had a complete mental breakdown during and after what he suffered in the Balkans war. I can't share the full detail of what he suffered in terms of isolation and betrayal by his government and employer. Some of the decisions he had to make were utterly brutal... you're the only person in comms, if you fall asleep hundreds of people are massacred because you were the only person available to report the opposition troops movements and call in the cavalry (if they arrive). The responsibility is ok, but after five days with no sleep you are traumatised to find out a village has been 'cleansed' because you fell asleep. At that point and well before my brother wasn't in a fit state to make any sort of decisions with regards to 'the enemy'.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Interesting.

Was trying to word it without passing judgement, perhaps 'a person or persons from a different social group may deem their actions repugnant/abhorrent/evil etc.' would be a more apt means of expressing the idea.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

@Dwazza

For a contemporary example:

(check the parent comment too)

Yeah, there are lots of ignorant people in this world. No surprise there, really.

 

[Red Diva]

Varying shades of heat of battle. Going through a short term battle engagement is totally different to long term insane pressure due to severe sleep deprivation, mental breakdown due to extreme stress, extreme ongoing fear, lack of food and water, and medical care, and PTSD in a war zone.
My brother had a complete mental breakdown during and after what he suffered in the Balkans war. I can't share the full detail of what he suffered in terms of isolation and betrayal by his government and employer. Some of the decisions he had to make were utterly brutal... you're the only person in comms, if you fall asleep hundreds of people are massacred because you were the only person available to report the opposition troops movements and call in the cavalry (if they arrive). The responsibility is ok, but after five days with no sleep you are traumatised to find out a village has been 'cleansed' because you fell asleep. At that point and well before my brother wasn't in a fit state to make any sort of decisions with regards to 'the enemy'.

That's very true Chorley 1974, but difficult for people to comprehend if they haven't been through it.

I'm very sorry to hear about your brother. I really hope he is doing OK now? x

 

[Chorley1974]

That's very true Chorley 1974, but difficult for people to comprehend if they haven't been through it.

I'm very sorry to hear about your brother. I really hope he is doing OK now? x

Hi Red Diva, appreciate your kind comments. It is so difficult to understand unless you have seen a strong man absolutely broken by the experience. I'm absolutely not condoning murder or manslaughter, or violence, just trying to point out that a lot of these guys commenting have never been through the same pressure, situations, life and death choices, deprivation, mental abuse, stress, and fatigue that the soldiers experience.

My brother is not really ok now, sad to say, I saw him at weekend for the first time in a while, he in his mid 40's, he withdraws. My getting a few hours, and a couple of pints with him made my, and my parents weekend.

 

[Red Diva]

Hi Red Diva, appreciate your kind comments. It is so difficult to understand unless you have seen a strong man absolutely broken by the experience. I'm absolutely not condoning murder or manslaughter, or violence, just trying to point out that a lot of these guys commenting have never been through the same pressure, situations, life and death choices, deprivation, mental abuse, stress, and fatigue that the soldiers experience.

My brother is not really ok now, sad to say, I saw him at weekend for the first time in a while, he in his mid 40's, he withdraws. My getting a few hours, and a couple of pints with him made my, and my parents weekend.

No they haven't, as I've tried to point out, rather unsuccessfully, in this thread.
My friend's son took his own life not long after returning from Afghanistan. Tragically for some, it was an experience too much to bear.

It's good you got to see your brother, I'm sure it made his weekend too xx