Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[Lemoor]

If he was confident in a long term win, he won't even be bothered with diplomatic action.

Why exactly? If invasion went fully according to his plan, he would be "pushing for peace" this way since march. Long term he will want economic sanctions lifted regardless of how the invasion goes.

 

[The United]

Again, I question people talking about how Russian can't do this for long and how their armies and weapons were gone.

They are still doing it and will do it while gaining more land than the UKR has for the past few weeks (?). I think people are really underestimating what Putin (and his people) will endure to keep going.

The support does not seem to be good or fast enough for the UKR which is obvious and the fatigue will hit them really hard very soon. The UKR should really have gotten Kreminna and Savtone (sp?) last year to keep the momentum. At this point, it does not look good for the UKR more so than the Russians.

 

[Shakesy]

Again, I question people talking about how Russian can't do this for long and how their armies and weapons were gone.

They are still doing it and will do it while gaining more land than the UKR has for the past few weeks (?). I think people are really underestimating what Putin and (his people) will endure to keep going.

The support does not seem to be good or fast enough for the UKR which is obvious and the fatigue will hit them really hard very soon. The UKR should really have gotten that city and Savtone (sp?) last year to keep the momentum. At this point, it does not look good for the UKR more so than the Russians.

It's a damn good thing I'm not a western politician. I'm over this.

 

[Raoul]

Again, I question people talking about how Russian can't do this for long and how their armies and weapons were gone.

They are still doing it and will do it while gaining more land than the UKR has for the past few weeks (?). I think people are really underestimating what Putin (and his people) will endure to keep going.

The support does not seem to be good or fast enough for the UKR which is obvious and the fatigue will hit them really hard very soon. The UKR should really have gotten Kreminna and Savtone (sp?) last year to keep the momentum. At this point, it does not look good for the UKR more so than the Russians.

Unless one has been consuming copious amounts of Kremlin propaganda, basically the opposite is true.

 

[The United]

Unless one has been consuming copious amounts of Kremlin propaganda, basically the opposite is true.

How is the opposite true here?

I mean the actual Kremlin propaganda is all about killing Satans and nuking half of the world etc. Pointing out the reality from the field that seemed to be different from what people are saying here is much easier things to do.

 

[Raoul]

How is the opposite true here?

I mean the actual Kremlin propaganda is all about killing Satans and nuking half of the world etc. Pointing out the reality from the field that seemed to be different from what people are saying here is much easier things to do.

Except you're not really pointing out the reality from the field. The Russians have lost far more than the Ukrainians have and have limited capacity to replenish their troops and weapons due to a lack of trained soldiers and western sanctions on Russian industry. The Ukrainians on the other hand have nearly limitless resources from Europe and the US, and can continue picking off troops the Russians throw onto the battlefields. The only reason things have slowed of late is due to weather.

 

[The United]

Except you're not really pointing out the reality from the field. The Russians have lost far more than the Ukrainians have and have limited capacity to replenish their troops and weapons due to a lack of trained soldiers and western sanctions on Russian industry. The Ukrainians on the other hand have nearly limitless resources from Europe and the US, and can continue picking off troops the Russians throw onto the battlefields. The only reason things have slowed of late is due to weather.

Who told you exactly that the Russian have lost far more? All the western intelligence recently hinted that the causalities are very much comparable while withholding the real causalities of the UKR for obvious reasons. Even if the Russians are losing twice as much as the UKR, look at their population.

And the Russians may have limited capacity to replenish troops and weapons but they are using tons of missiles which were produced very lately, plugging holes in their frontline while gaining lands lately. Now, the UKR are preparing to resist the Russians offensive while not being able to make their own to regain some territories.

The initiatives are very much coming from the Russians. That's after people here talked about how they would be on the backfoot for months. The reality here is that the Russians adapted and seemed to be dedicating the momentum here.

The UKR does NOT have limitless resources from the west. I am not sure how people are not taking consideration of the fatigue that the UKR are having or will have very soon.

I don't think I am the one who is consuming anyone's propaganda too much here. Not to mentioned how I pointed out the Bekhmut was very important for both sides weeks ago while everyone was saying it was useless. Well, it was so useless that there were reports of UKR losing triple digits of men daily defending it because according to some western intelligence that if the UKR loses it, it will be harder for them to defend the cities around behind that line. And the Russians are gaining some foothold there little by little with their army of convicts.

 

[Raoul]

Who told you exactly that the Russian have lost far more? All the western intelligence recently hinted that the causalities are very much comparable while withholding the real causalities of the UKR for obvious reasons. Even if the Russians are losing twice as much as the UKR, look at their population.

Do you think the Ukrainians have lost upwards of 200k troops in this war as the Russians have. ? (Note: There is more than one source reporting this number)

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And the Russians may have limited capacity to replenish troops and weapons but they are using tons of missiles which were produced very lately, plugging holes in their frontline while gaining lands lately. Now, the UKR are preparing to resist the Russians offensive while not being able to make their own to regain some territories.

The initiatives are very much coming from the Russians. That's after people here talked about how they would be on the backfoot for months. The reality here is that the Russians adapted and seemed to be dedicating the momentum here.

Their troops are untrained. They are literally plucking people off the streets against their will with little to no training, will to fight, or equipment to sustain themselves.

The UKR does NOT have limitless resources from the west. I am not sure how people are not taking consideration of the fatigue that the UKR are having or will have very soon.

I don't think I am the one who is consuming anyone's propaganda too much here.

Its not propaganda - the US and Europe have pumped in more money than the annual Russian defense budget into Ukraine, with much more where that came from.

 

[The Firestarter]

@The United Did you sincerely miss the Kharkiv and Kherson counter offensives, and the fact that Russians lost approximately half the territory they gained since last February? Their current gains are measured in meters, while UA is preparing the next coordinated offensive for the Spring.

 

[The United]

Do you think the Ukrainians have lost upwards of 200k troops in this war as the Russians have. ? (Note: There is more than one source reporting this number)

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Their troops are untrained. They are literally plucking people off the streets against their will with little to no training, will to fight, or equipment to sustain themselves.



Its not propaganda - the US and Europe have pumped in more money than the annual Russian defense budget into Ukraine, with much more where that came from.

No, I don't believe the UKR lost more than 200k troops, and you literally quoted the Russian casualty figure of 180000 before implying they lost more than 200k? I also stated that their casualty numbers for both were comparable based on Western intelligence hints.

It means nothing if their troops are untrained or convicts. What matters is that they can gather the numbers which matters and have shown that here for the last few months. The UKR troops would be in the same condition, and the Russians are advancing right now more so than the UKR.

The US and Europe have pumped in more money into their own defense, not for the Ukraine. Putin does not have to care about his citizen welfare. He can just use all the money for the military and it will make the war going for a very long time which some people don't seem to believe.

 

[The United]

@The United Did you sincerely miss the Kharkiv and Kherson counter offensives, and the fact that Russians lost approximately half the territory they gained since last February? Their current gains are measured in meters, while UA is preparing the next coordinated offensive for the Spring.

No, I did not miss those offensives. But I said, people missed the point here.

Don't you think the Russians adapted after those defeats and now they are making the initiatives which is a concern? We have been talking about the UKR counter offensive for months but what is happening is that they are preparing to resist the Russians offensive while getting wasted at Bekhmut area and boggled down for months in the north.

There is no good news recently for the UKR at all. We all are hoping there will be some. SOON.

 

[The Firestarter]

No, I did not miss those offensives. But I said, people missed the point here.

Don't you think the Russians adapted after those defeats and now they are making the initiatives which is a concern? We have been talking about the UKR counter offensive for months but what is happening is that they are preparing to resist the Russians offensive while getting wasted at Bekhmut area and boggled down for months in the north.

There is no good news recently for the UKR at all. We all are hoping there will be some. SOON.

What did you actually expect, sweep the whole Russian forces in one go? Why do you think is so much talk about sending tanks right now? Further gains are predicated on heavy armor, since the Russian have dug in the Donbas. They understood they can't go further and decided to consolidate what they had.

A little perspective is needed.One year ago, who in their wildest acid dreams would have even suggested we might have the current balance of power, or even that the conflict would last one year.

 

[Carolina Red]

It means nothing if their troops are untrained or convicts.

Uh, what?

the Russians are advancing right now more so than the UKR.

Elastic defense: exists

 

[Simbo]

Who told you exactly that the Russian have lost far more? All the western intelligence recently hinted that the causalities are very much comparable while withholding the real causalities of the UKR for obvious reasons. Even if the Russians are losing twice as much as the UKR, look at their population.

And the Russians may have limited capacity to replenish troops and weapons but they are using tons of missiles which were produced very lately, plugging holes in their frontline while gaining lands lately. Now, the UKR are preparing to resist the Russians offensive while not being able to make their own to regain some territories.

The initiatives are very much coming from the Russians. That's after people here talked about how they would be on the backfoot for months. The reality here is that the Russians adapted and seemed to be dedicating the momentum here.

The UKR does NOT have limitless resources from the west. I am not sure how people are not taking consideration of the fatigue that the UKR are having or will have very soon.

I don't think I am the one who is consuming anyone's propaganda too much here. Not to mentioned how I pointed out the Bekhmut was very important for both sides weeks ago while everyone was saying it was useless. Well, it was so useless that there were reports of UKR losing triple digits of men daily defending it because according to some western intelligence that if the UKR loses it, it will be harder for them to defend the cities around behind that line. And the Russians are gaining some foothold there little by little with their army of convicts.

You might be getting fatigued but I've not seen any evidence that western governments might. Support has been consistently increasing and most are ramping up their military capabilities to counter this new threat. I don't think there is anything to worry about here.

I'm also not worried about Russia taking tiny fractions of land around Bakhmut, this is the comment that makes it sound like you might be a bit susceptible to Russian propaganda. They are doing their best to make these gains sound like some sort of huge victory. Despite everything Russia has thrown at this small town for the past six months, at incredible cost, Bakhmut still holds. So I find it quite laughable anyone can suggest this area as evidence Russia has the momentum.

I'd suggest if anything has control of the momentum, its the weather. I did hope to see some offensives on frozen ground but that's not happening. Maybe its because Ukraine doesn't have the capability, maybe because Russia has adapted and re-organised properly or maybe it is just the weather, we can't know either way. What I do know is that Ukraine isn't taking its land back 1km at a time, it will degrade Russia's ability to fight in an entire area, then push in hard, forcing a general retreat. It appears right now that things are very much gearing (literally) up for the Spring.

They have also shown they are willing to give up ground if that's what is needed to keep the attrition rate in their favour and from everything we've seen, from both sides, the attrition rate is well in their favour. They might well be losing 3 digit numbers per day but from the figures Ukraine and the US are putting out Russia is losing almost 4 digits per day.

 

[The United]

Uh, what?

People mentioned that those troops are untrained. And do we think that UKR are properly trained as well?

Both armies lost most of their professional soldiers at this point already. So the advantage if there is any is minimal. And it does not matter who they are as long they can gain advantage in the battle field which the Russians clearly was able to achieve at this moment so far.

 

[Carolina Red]

People mentioned that those troops are untrained. And do we think that UKR are properly trained as well?

Both armies lost most of their professional soldiers at this point already. So the advantage if there is any is minimal. And it does not matter who they are as long they can gain advantage in the battle field which the Russians clearly was able to achieve at this moment so far.

Yes, I believe that the Ukrainians have a decided training advantage over the Russians and have had one since the first day of the war.

And it absolutely matters how trained they are when Russia is having to fight an offensive campaign to try to win this war. Modern offensive operations require a high level of training to be successful.

 

[The United]

What did you actually expect, sweep the whole Russian forces in one go? Why do you think is so much talk about sending tanks right now? Further gains are predicated on heavy armor, since the Russian have dug in the Donbas. They understood they can't go further and decided to consolidate what they had.

A little perspective is needed.One year ago, who in their wildest acid dreams would have even suggested we might have the current balance of power, or even that the conflict would last one year.

The bold part is what I am concerned because the West probably think that the situation was getting worse for the UKR. We hope it is not too late.

I am not saying the UKR are doing a bad job, the opposite in fact but I am not getting where some people are getting all the Russians are losing and going to lose soon etc stuff. I am asking and thinking if I am the only one who does not see it that way.

 

[The United]

Yes, I believe that the Ukrainians have a decided training advantage over the Russians and have had one since the first day of the war.

And it absolutely matters how trained they are when Russia is having to fight an offensive campaign to try to win this war. Modern offensive operations require a high level of training to be successful.

The way I see is all Russians have to do is keep the defensive line on those territories and they can do it for very long. It will be on the UKR to do offensive.

That is assuming that Russians are not getting trained right now. All the evidence are pointing that they sent tons of untrained troops to plug and gain some (minimal) territories which they achieved while training some reserve to a good level to do another major offensive. All these were being done while halting a major UKR counter offensive in the north. And they will pull out more numbers soon.

Then there are weekly missiles attack which they are getting more creative with the missiles which were supposed to be out of stock months ago or something like that.

 

[Rajma]

People mentioned that those troops are untrained. And do we think that UKR are properly trained as well?

Both armies lost most of their professional soldiers at this point already. So the advantage if there is any is minimal. And it does not matter who they are as long they can gain advantage in the battle field which the Russians clearly was able to achieve at this moment so far.

While you go over the top at times for some reason, you raise valid points with respect to the quality of troops currently flowing in is very poor from Ukrainian side as well. Barely any training is provided to the mobilized in certain cases and it will definitely slow down any potential counter offensives. That’s why it’s absolutely vital to provide them with the technological upper hand as swiftly as possible in all military areas and in proper numbers to avoid this costly attritional battle that’s only ever gonna result in the stalemate. The fatigue is also a factor for Ukrainian population is much greater as the war is ongoing on their soil, and while there’s plenty of good things happening in Ukrainian communities, they still have persistently high level of corruption / lack of competence that hasn’t been dealt with properly within the military, defense, police, government, authorities, etc., and with each passing day it ever so slightly but kills the motivation of population at large to go on and fight.

 

[The United]

You might be getting fatigued but I've not seen any evidence that western governments might. Support has been consistently increasing and most are ramping up their military capabilities to counter this new threat. I don't think there is anything to worry about here.

I'm also not worried about Russia taking tiny fractions of land around Bakhmut, this is the comment that makes it sound like you might be a bit susceptible to Russian propaganda. They are doing their best to make these gains sound like some sort of huge victory. Despite everything Russia has thrown at this small town for the past six months, at incredible cost, Bakhmut still holds. So I find it quite laughable anyone can suggest this area as evidence Russia has the momentum.

I'd suggest if anything has control of the momentum, its the weather. I did hope to see some offensives on frozen ground but that's not happening. Maybe its because Ukraine doesn't have the capability, maybe because Russia has adapted and re-organised properly or maybe it is just the weather, we can't know either way. What I do know is that Ukraine isn't taking its land back 1km at a time, it will degrade Russia's ability to fight in an entire area, then push in hard, forcing a general retreat. It appears right now that things are very much gearing (literally) up for the Spring.

They have also shown they are willing to give up ground if that's what is needed to keep the attrition rate in their favour and from everything we've seen, from both sides, the attrition rate is well in their favour. They might well be losing 3 digit numbers per day but from the figures Ukraine and the US are putting out Russia is losing almost 4 digits per day.

I do wish I could see some of those.

I mean people have to stop accusing others of listening to those when someone raised a different perspective. Seriously.

 

[Simbo]

I am not saying the UKR are doing a bad job, the opposite in fact but I am not getting where some people are getting all the Russians are losing and going to lose soon etc stuff. I am asking and thinking if I am the only one who does not see it that way.

MIght be a bit of fatigue on our part because we've heard what you are saying a few times before. There was no hope for Ukraine before Russia's entire northern operation collapsed. Russia was "winning" and gaining land right before they collapsed in Kharkiv Oblast. Russia was gaining ground and "had the momentum" right before they retreated from most of Kherson Oblast.

You might be right this time though, who really knows.

 

[The United]

While you go over the top at times for some reason, you raise valid points with respect to the quality of troops currently flowing in is very poor from Ukrainian side as well. Barely any training is provided to the mobilized in certain cases and it will definitely slow down any potential counter offensives. That’s why it’s absolutely vital to provide them with the technological upper hand as swiftly as possible in all military areas and in proper numbers to avoid this costly attritional battle that’s only ever gonna result in the stalemate. The fatigue is also a factor for Ukrainian population is much greater as the war is ongoing on their soil, and while there’s plenty of good things happening in Ukrainian communities, they still have persistently high level of corruption / lack of competence that hasn’t been dealt with properly within the military, defense, police, government, authorities, etc., and with each passing day it ever so slightly but kills the motivation of population at large to go on and fight.

It is not going over the top. It is just that the flow of information seems very heavy on the side of as I said how the Russians will pack their bag soon for months.

 

[The United]

MIght be a bit of fatigue on our part because we've heard what you are saying a few times before. There was no hope for Ukraine before Russia's entire northern operation collapsed. Russia was "winning" and gaining land right before they collapsed in Kharkiv Oblast. Russia was gaining ground and "had the momentum" right before they retreated from most of Kherson Oblast.

You might be right this time though, who really knows.

I have never said there was no hope for the UKR. The Russians being collapsed on the northern part could be predicted once the Russians had to retreat from Kyiv. However the situation of the east and south are way different than the north based on the size of cities and the local population support for the Russians (at least before the war).

And people again missed the point that the Russians seemed to adapt after those collapses and quickly stabilized the situation for better.

 

[stefan92]

MIght be a bit of fatigue on our part because we've heard what you are saying a few times before. There was no hope for Ukraine before Russia's entire northern operation collapsed. Russia was "winning" and gaining land right before they collapsed in Kharkiv Oblast. Russia was gaining ground and "had the momentum" right before they retreated from most of Kherson Oblast.

You might be right this time though, who really knows.

Svatove/Kreminna is the axis that should see the next Ukrainian success. But obviously it is much more difficult to break through against massive numbers during the winter.

 

[The United]

Svatove/Kreminna is the axis that should see the next Ukrainian success. But obviously it is much more difficult to break through against massive numbers during the winter.

And as long as the Russians can pull out the numbers, it will be difficult for the UKR.

People talk about untrained troops etc but literally that's how they won against a much more modern and trained troops anyway in WWII? I mean it can still be done now and they are doing alright in that sense right now. The UKR troops performed against all odds but hardly a modern army themselves with most of their professional soldiers are long gone.

 

[Simbo]

And as long as the Russians can pull out the numbers, it will be difficult for the UKR.

People talk about untrained troops etc but literally that's how they won against a much more modern and trained troops anyway in WWII? I mean it can still be done now and they are doing alright in that sense right now. The UKR troops performed against all odds but hardly a modern army themselves with most of their professional soldiers are long gone.

Largely thanks to millions of tonnes of Western supplies. Allies win wars.

 

[Carolina Red]

The way I see is all Russians have to do is keep the defensive line on those territories and they can do it for very long. It will be on the UKR to do offensive.

I think you’re viewing this war incorrectly. The Ukrainians have the advantage of interior lines and the knowledge that they can pick and choose the area and time of any offensive they need to fight. The Russians began this war by invading Ukraine and have to win it by conquering Ukraine. They have extended lines and political pressure on them to continue their stalled advances at whatever cost.

That is assuming that Russians are not getting trained right now. All the evidence are pointing that they sent tons of untrained troops to plug and gain some (minimal) territories which they achieved while training some reserve to a good level to do another major offensive. All these were being done while halting a major UKR counter offensive in the north. And they will pull out more numbers soon.

Even if they are, Russian military training, quite frankly, sucks. Even if they are getting trained, it will be to a level that is slightly above shitty. The “best units” in the Russian Army proved how poorly trained they were in the opening stages of the war.

In the meantime, Ukrainian forces were prior to the war, and are currently, being trained NATO.

Then there are weekly missiles attack which they are getting more creative with the missiles which were supposed to be out of stock months ago or something like that.

Weekly missile attacks are not going to break Ukraine’s resolve to defend their homeland in the same way that the Blitz didn’t break Britain.

 

[The United]

Largely thanks to millions of tonnes of Western supplies. Allies win wars.

So their large number didn't play a part?

 

[stefan92]

Largely thanks to millions of tonnes of Western supplies. Allies win wars.

Yep, Russia hasn't won a major war in the last 150 years, except WW2, and that was a bloodbath, only enabled by US industry support.

 

[Carolina Red]

People talk about untrained troops etc but literally that's how they won against a much more modern and trained troops anyway in WWII?

That is literally not what happened. The Soviet Union held an absurd material advantage over the Germans by 1943 due to their own industrial might and due to Lend-Lease.

Besides that, the elastic defense / defense in depth that Ukraine is now using was what broke the back of the Wehrmacht in Barbarossa.

 

[The United]

That is literally not what happened. The Soviet Union held an absurd material advantage over the Germans due to their own industrial might and due to Lend-Lease after 1943.

Besides that, the elastic defense / defense in depth that Ukraine is now using was what broke the back of the Wehrmacht in Barbarossa.

Interesting.

 

[Rajma]

The way I see is all Russians have to do is keep the defensive line on those territories and they can do it for very long. It will be on the UKR to do offensive.

That is assuming that Russians are not getting trained right now. All the evidence are pointing that they sent tons of untrained troops to plug and gain some (minimal) territories which they achieved while training some reserve to a good level to do another major offensive. All these were being done while halting a major UKR counter offensive in the north. And they will pull out more numbers soon.

Then there are weekly missiles attack which they are getting more creative with the missiles which were supposed to be out of stock months ago or something like that.

When I say you go over the top for no reason, you need to look no further than “getting trained to a good level” with all the officers dead or in Ukraine, you’re deluded.

 

[The United]

When I say you go over the top for no reason, you need to look no further than “getting trained to a good level” with all the officers dead or in Ukraine, you’re deluded.

Relatively, obviously.

Getting trained for two months would be better than two weeks, no?

 

[The United]

I think you’re viewing this war incorrectly. The Ukrainians have the advantage of interior lines and the knowledge that they can pick and choose the area and time of any offensive they need to fight. The Russians began this war by invading Ukraine and have to win it by conquering Ukraine. They have extended lines and political pressure on them to continue their stalled advances at whatever cost.

Even if they are, Russian military training, quite frankly, sucks. Even if they are getting trained, it will be to a level that is slightly above shitty. The “best units” in the Russian Army proved how poorly trained they were in the opening stages of the war.

In the meantime, Ukrainian forces were prior to the war, and are currently, being trained NATO.

Weekly missile attacks are not going to break Ukraine’s resolve to defend their homeland in the same way that the Blitz didn’t break Britain.

Of course, if you write it that way, the UKR have all the advantages.

But I am not convinced that will reflect on the battle field at this moment any time soon. I just have a feeling that the UKR troops are under heavy pressures and fatigue.

How long do you think we will have to wait to see all those advantages will be used against the Russians in the battle field? What would be called as victory, etc?

 

[Simbo]

So their large number didn't play a part?

Of course it did, the entire country was mobilised to fight for their very existence, which is a far cry from whatever kind of war they are currently engaging. General mobilisation might just be the end of Putin, although he appears to be setting the stage putting very visible AA units around Moscow... They likely still wouldn't have prevailed without the lend lease. Based on all the analysis I've heard, he might be able to somehow convince another 500k men to go fight for him, but effectively equipping and supplying them is a whole other matter.

 

[Rajma]

Relatively, obviously.

Getting trained for two months would be better than two weeks, no?

Even half a year of standard Russian training is a joke as they don’t tend to do anything useful bar some housekeeping jobs apart from firing one or two magazines worth of ammunition during the whole training. In these conditions with most of the working equipment and professional soldiers in Ukraine, it will be much worse, better than nothing but only just given the amount of corruption and incompetence within their ranks. Not to mention that during their training most days they’ll be getting fecked up with cheap vodka, so by the time they arrive some will barely function physically from all the drinking and drugs.

 

[stefan92]

Interesting.

Some of the movements and operations exactly replicate what has happened 80 years before in the same places.

 

[The United]

Of course it did, the entire country was mobilised to fight for their very existence, which is a far cry from whatever kind of war they are currently engaging. General mobilisation might just be the end of Putin, although he appears to be setting the stage putting very visible AA units around Moscow. They likely still wouldn't have prevailed without the lend lease. Based on all the analysis I've heard, he might be able to somehow convince another 500k men to go fight for him, but effectively equipping and supplying them is a whole other matter.

Okay. Let me make this a bit clear again.

The Russians sent untrained troops and convicts etc.

But were they able to achieve what they wanted to there? And, there was no sign of slowing down of whatever they are doing. So what are we actually feeling good about it, especially, the UKR themselves are hardly a modern army and have a much more inferior population while their lands are getting destroyed right now? It is what I am wondering myself.

 

[The United]

Even half a year of standard Russian training is a joke as they don’t tend to do anything useful bar some housekeeping jobs apart from firing one or two magazines worth of ammunition during the whole training. In these conditions with most of the working equipment and professional soldiers in Ukraine, it will be much worse, better than nothing but only just given the amount of corruption and incompetence within their ranks. Not to mention that during their training most days they’ll be getting fecked up with cheap vodka, so by the time they arrive some will barely function physically from all the drinking and drugs.

It does not matter as I have replied to others here.

Would they achieve anything with those? When I said achieve anything means as long as they occupy any amount of Ukraine land, you could say that they "got" something.

"Wagner Group fighters have become the disposable infantry of the Russian offensive in eastern Ukraine, but a Ukrainian military intelligence document obtained by CNN sets out how effective they have been around the city of Bakhmut – and how difficult they are to fight against." - CNN

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

And follow it up with suggesing bombing urban areas as retribution. There is no bombing urban areas without civilian casualties, if you drop bombs into cities there will be civilian casualties.
If Ukraine started doing what you suggest they would become exatly what they are described as in Russian propaganda. They need to be better then that or the support in the west will go away very quickly, no country wants their weapons used to kill civilians.

I don't think that Ukraine bombing Russian civilians would make any sense, but there are other ways to use civilians as bargaining chips as a direct response to the way the Kremlin has initiated this game.

I can't remember when it was, but Peter Zaihan said in a video that Ukraine can easily make life extremely miserable for Crimea if 2 things are done: 1) destroy what is left of the Kerch bridge and 2) cut off the water supply going into the North Crimean canal. For the record, Ukraine had the water supply to Crimea cut off for 8 years before the current war began. Hence if there is one place where Ukraine should concentrate their attacks ASAP, it has to be Tavriisk because it is also where the water supply for that canal is controlled at the source.

Another way to 'make the war real' for an average Russian would be to target the power grid near a major urban area knowing that the Ukrainian have the resources to strike at a far distance. Cutting the power off at Putin's hometown of Saint-Petersburg is a way to both make it real and get Putin really mad, especially in the winter.

Now I guess that Ukraine are not taking those routes yet because they are not facing desperation as of now, but the mere ideas themselves should not be disregarded at all for as long as that bald POS in the Kremlin keeps on going wth those direct strikes on civilians.